NVIDIA rumored to be preparing GeForce RTX 4080/4070 SUPER cards

LukeTbk said:
Heard near 4080, never same performance let alone above performance level.
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Near is a relative term which isn’t particularly useful. You could argue that even setting aside the supers the Ti is already “near”. Even in this thread “is” has been used.

4070TiS won’t be any closer than 10% of 4080 and 15% of 4080S. (If that)

Is that enough for near? Or a better question, is that enough for $200+ another price class?
 
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LukeTbk said:
Yes but enought to be clear by anyone using it that the know it will not be at a 4080 level and certainly not above it.
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I don’t think it’s going to necessarily be that either. Because the 4080S also has to justify itself. But the problem with this whole conversation is that all we’re really doing is arguing semantics. Which I also don’t find to be useful just like I don’t find relative terms to be useful either.

You asked a question, I answered. I don’t think the back-and-forth is helping at all in terms of usefulness or clarity.


EDIT: Just for points of reference. TechRadar's review comparing 4070Ti vs 4080.

https://www.techradar.com/versus/rtx-4070-ti-vs-rtx-4080

Depending on the test, there is a difference between the two of 10-115% (yes the 115% difference is an outlier). The combined average across the board is about ~30% (27.06). This average is combining productivity with gaming benchmarks.
nVidia themselves say the 4070Ti to 4070TiS average increase will be around 15%. Making the 4080 around 13% stronger than the 4070TiS. Most would call that 10% difference an entirely different performance class. That also means the 4080S will be roughly 20% faster than the 4070TiS, if their metric of "5%" increase for 4080S is also accurate.

In games there is 40% difference between 4070Ti and 4080 (averages). So a 15% increase there would still mean a 4080 would be 25% faster than a 4070TiS. Meaning in that case a 4080S would be 30% faster than a 4070TiS.

Is 25% near? Again, this is why words like "near' aren't helpful. And in this case I don't think even accurately reflects (regardless of how you define near) to actually "be near". And any arguments against this is more about discussing how you interpret "near" than how I do. Which again is equally pointless.
 
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UnknownSouljer said:
Near is a relative term which isn’t particularly useful. You could argue that even setting aside the supers the Ti is already “near”. Even in this thread “is” has been used.

4070TiS won’t be any closer than 10% of 4080 and 15% of 4080S. (If that)

Is that enough for near? Or a better question, is that enough for $200+ another price class?
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I think the bigger news is it should perform within 5% of a 7900xt with better ray tracing and all the DLSS bells and whistles. So really what matters is its price in relation to the 7900xt.
Depending on how much Nvidia wants to play that will be the real fight to watch.
 
Lakados said:
I think the bigger news is it should perform within 5% of a 7900xt with better ray tracing and all the DLSS bells and whistles. So really what matters is its price in relation to the 7900xt.
Depending on how much Nvidia wants to play that will be the real fight to watch.
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Right. AMD has already responded here by dropping the 7900XT officially to $750 and partners already have cards as low as $729. So already there will be a price difference in AMD's favor. The question there will then be:
1.) Will there be sufficient cards at MSRP for the 4070TiS? (The Founders Edition yes, but every other card is the question).
2.) Will the performance delta between the 7800XT and the 4070TiS be worth it (especially considering that there may not be cards available at MSRP for the 4070TiS)?
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Right. AMD has already responded here by dropping the 7900XT officially to $750 and partners already have cards as low as $729. So already there will be a price difference in AMD's favor. The question there will then be:
1.) Will there be sufficient cards at MSRP for the 4070TiS? (The Founders Edition yes, but every other card is the question).
2.) Will the performance delta between the 7800XT and the 4070TiS be worth it (especially considering that there may not be cards available at MSRP for the 4070TiS)?
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Nvidia has a LOT of AD103’s they priced the 4080 badly and they know it, they did it intentionally. They stockpiled the chips and AIB’s didn’t order a lot of them because they were shitting themselves over their huge 3000 series overstocks. With the decreased demand on the consumer side it let them allocate more wafers to Enterprise and that worked out pretty well.

Now the 3000’s are mostly gone (new at least) and they can price the 4000’s to actually play. So these are the cards and adjusted MSRP’s the cards would have originally launched at if the AIB’s hadn’t shit themselves over the COVID demand and actually played it smart. NVidia isn’t wrong when they compare the AIB’s to profit hungry leeches.
 
Lakados said:
Nvidia has a LOT of AD103’s they priced the 4080 badly and they know it, they did it intentionally. They stockpiled the chips and AIB’s didn’t order a lot of them because they were shitting themselves over their huge 3000 series overstocks. With the decreased demand on the consumer side it let them allocate more wafers to Enterprise and that worked out pretty well.

Now the 3000’s are mostly gone (new at least) and they can price the 4000’s to actually play. So these are the cards and adjusted MSRP’s the cards would have originally launched at if the AIB’s hadn’t shit themselves over the COVID demand and actually played it smart. NVidia isn’t wrong when they compare the AIB’s to profit hungry leeches.
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All of that maybe true, but AiB's are still mostly stuck with nVidia's package pricing. I've only heard more and more rumors of dissatisfied AiB's because they aren't able to price their cards at the Founder's Edition prices without taking a loss for a product with equivalent cooling. And they can't really make modified/OC'ed versions very easily also without a massive increase in price.

Basically all the same stuff that EVGA was complaining about. I guess we'll just have to see the pricing landscape once the 4070TiS and 4080S drops.
 
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Lakados said:
I think the bigger news is it should perform within 5% of a 7900xt with better ray tracing and all the DLSS bells and whistles. So really what matters is its price in relation to the 7900xt.
Depending on how much Nvidia wants to play that will be the real fight to watch.
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That might not end up being the real fight to watch, depending on how much AMD drops prices on the XTX. If it drops to around $850 that will put it in direct competition with several ti Super models.

UnknownSouljer said:
Right. AMD has already responded here by dropping the 7900XT officially to $750 and partners already have cards as low as $729. So already there will be a price difference in AMD's favor. The question there will then be:
1.) Will there be sufficient cards at MSRP for the 4070TiS? (The Founders Edition yes, but every other card is the question).
2.) Will the performance delta between the 7800XT and the 4070TiS be worth it (especially considering that there may not be cards available at MSRP for the 4070TiS)?
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There is no FE for the 4070 ti Super. Right now, Best Buy is showing two models at MSRP with Newegg showing three, but until we actually get to launch we won't know if those prices will stay that way.
 
rumors are that of the three new Super variants, the RTX 4070 Ti Super is going to have the lowest stock levels at launch...those interested might want to jump in right away...
 
Derangel said:
That might not end up being the real fight to watch, depending on how much AMD drops prices on the XTX. If it drops to around $850 that will put it in direct competition with several ti Super models.
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The 7900 xtx may soon find itself very stock constrained, as supply drops the fight will pick up. Can AMD actually maintain supply at that price? And what if Nvidia drops price to match? Much if not most of the silicon going to these chips was produced last calendar year, Nvidia has already essentially paid for them and they had a slush fund of money to play the price game if their hand got called. Nvidia accounting wise can get very aggressive here, because they want as little silicon on the shelves as possible come this time next year.
 
GoldenTiger said:
I meant the ti super obviously... Just forgot to type the extra word :p. He didn't say he saw an xtx at 799, he was speculating.
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The 7900XTX did hit an Amazon sale a couple weeks ago for $799. It sat there at that price for hours and Im glad it went off sale, almost bit a few times that day.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again. If I can find a regular 4080 at $900 Im not thinking about it and clicking the buy button.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Near is a relative term which isn’t particularly useful. You could argue that even setting aside the supers the Ti is already “near”. Even in this thread “is” has been used.

4070TiS won’t be any closer than 10% of 4080 and 15% of 4080S. (If that)

Is that enough for near? Or a better question, is that enough for $200+ another price class?
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Just wait for the 4070 Ti Super Ti.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
In games there is 40% difference between 4070Ti and 4080 (averages). So a 15% increase there would still mean a 4080 would be 25% faster than a 4070TiS. Meaning in that case a 4080S would be 30% faster than a 4070TiS.

Is 25% near? Again, this is why words like "near' aren't helpful. And in this case I don't think even accurately reflects (regardless of how you define near) to actually "be near". And any arguments against this is more about discussing how you interpret "near" than how I do. Which again is equally pointless.
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I think you are simply being a bit disingenuous, there is no reasonable interpretation of near that would include someone thinking it will have better performance.

Same for the performance gap and the expected one, people have more this in mind

relative-performance_3840-2160.png
relative-performance_2560-1440.png


A 15% gain over the 4070ti would make it 115% vs 119% at 1440p on the TPU average and 115%-126%, the 4080 close at 1440p, 10% faster at 4k raster, people calling that close.
 
Lakados said:
Nvidia has a LOT of AD103’s they priced the 4080 badly and they know it, they did it intentionally. They stockpiled the chips and AIB’s didn’t order a lot of them because they were shitting themselves over their huge 3000 series overstocks. With the decreased demand on the consumer side it let them allocate more wafers to Enterprise and that worked out pretty well.

Now the 3000’s are mostly gone (new at least) and they can price the 4000’s to actually play. So these are the cards and adjusted MSRP’s the cards would have originally launched at if the AIB’s hadn’t shit themselves over the COVID demand and actually played it smart. NVidia isn’t wrong when they compare the AIB’s to profit hungry leeches.
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Hah. For Nvidia that would be a pot calling the kettle black scenario if there ever was one. Covid demand was more crypto and none of these companies wanted to drop prices because they might get sued (again in Nvidia's case) by stockholders (being idiots and greedy themselves) along with retailers, distributors apparently rioting because they would be losing a lot of cash due to previous prices for shipping etc.. So as per usual, the greed rolls downhill and they expect the customers to pay the high prices. Except many don't or wait out the companies for many obvious reasons.

No one wants to be AMD fire selling those R9 290/290x cards in 2014 again. Nvidia sure doesnt seem to have a problem selling 1440p GPUs for $600 instead of $330 for a gtx 970 that was touted as a 1440p card ten years ago. A mid range GPU for $500-600 that is just about the cost of the rest of a mid range system these days.
 
Oddly enough, I got an email from Aliexpress this morning with a pile of old AMD cards in the $100-200 range or so. RX 550s, 580s, 5700 XTs, etc.

Edit: just got another: 8GB rx 5700, $37, rx 6600, $118. Although that last one also *also* lists a 6600m, and the choices say "rx 6600 picture" and "rx 6600m picture".
 
LukeTbk said:
I think you are simply being a bit disingenuous, there is no reasonable interpretation of near that would include someone thinking it will have better performance.

Same for the performance gap and the expected one, people have more this in mind

View attachment 628868View attachment 628869

A 15% gain over the 4070ti would make it 115% vs 119% at 1440p on the TPU average and 115%-126%, the 4080 close at 1440p, 10% faster at 4k raster, people calling that close.
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I didn’t even say about near being over. But precisely what near itself even means (is near still near if there is a 20% gap? I don’t think it is. Is it still near if it’s a 10% gap?). And also that any gain is going to be bias in terms cherry picking current benchmarks in order to show just how near or not near the 4070TiS will be to the 4080.

Just saying this is all a wasted exercise. Just wait for benchmarks.
 
LukeTbk said:
The whole argument is about you saying that people expecting the 4070 ti super to have above performance to the 4080 being wrong and me asking if they really exist....
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Yep. No one claimed that but he's saying it anyway to falsely bolster his argument.

As you also illustrated the 4070ti super should be near what the 4080 is currently.
 
LukeTbk said:
The whole argument is about you saying that people expecting the 4070 ti super to have above performance to the 4080 being wrong and me asking if they really exist....
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Then this whole discussion is moot.
Because to me it’s always been about people saying the 4070TiS will be 4080 performance for $800. Then we got into an entire discussion about the definition of the word “near”. Perhaps both of those were wrong detours, but that’s the way I saw it.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Then this whole discussion is moot.
Because to me it’s always been about people saying the 4070TiS will be 4080 performance for $800. Then we got into an entire discussion about the definition of the word “near”. Perhaps both of those were wrong detours, but that’s the way I saw it.
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It's going to be close enough, but no one claimed it would match it as it has less cores and otherwise identical specs.
 
GoldenTiger said:
It's going to be close enough, but no one claimed it would match it as it has less cores and otherwise identical specs.
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So you’re out of line is what you’re saying. And now spreading false accusations with a retcon, that it was “close enough”? Where I come from close enough isn’t “good enough” to smear someone.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
So you’re out of line is what you’re saying. And now spreading false accusations with a retcon, that it was “close enough”? Where I come from close enough isn’t “good enough” to smear someone.
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Is there a language barrier here or something? I give up.
 
LukeTbk said:
https://hardforum.com/threads/nvidi...4080-4070-super-cards.2031127/post-1045815106


That's what I reacted too.
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Fair. None of my responses after that discuss it that way in any way shape or form.

You responded to that message with this:
LukeTbk said:
Do they exist ?

The 4070ti super has 17.5% less core, the sku seem to clearly indicate to consumer that it will be a lesser card, etc...
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And I said this:
UnknownSouljer said:
Yeah. A lot of folks are saying that the 4070TiS is "a 4080 for $800". Especially in rumors land. nVidia has very intentionally positioned the 4070TiS lower than the 4080 as to at least not entirely piss off the few 4080 owners out there. That and they still have to liquidate remaining 4080 stock in the meantime.

There is also the fact that the 4080S just simply didn't have more silicon to "grow into" on AD103, and it's going to have a 5% gain using the full die. They also simply don't want to push the 4070TiS against the 4080S, and they want enough of a performance delta to make the $200 price difference be "worth it".
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From my standpoint we were always talking about the relationship between the two cards and always agreed they’d never be equal or exceed. If that’s what it’s always been then we could’ve stopped two pages ago.

But FWIW, yeah I hold to that statement that there are some people that do think it will be equal if not above.
 
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Videocardz has leaked synthetic: https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...er-on-average-than-rtx-4070ti-in-3dmark-tests

The 4070TiS is around 8% faster than the 4070Ti and 14-21% slower than a 4080 on all synthetic benchmarks. Which will probably be a bigger reflection of creativity and productivity benchmarks than gaming, but give at least some indication on expectation(s) of where this card will fall.

So, I would say my assessments were right, I personally wouldn't call the 4070Ti S "near" to the 4080 (or otherwise describe it as "a 4080 for $800"). The 4080 though being retired is still in a difference price class. The 4080S will have about 5% more CUDA cores, be faster clocked than the original (higher power target), and have faster memory. I assume it will be more than 5% faster than the 4080. There will be at least a 20% delta between the 4070TiS and the 4080S. If I had to guess, it won't be more than 25% though. If it is, then the 4080S will have gone from one of the worst cards of all time with some of the worst value to the most improved card likely ever in a segment.

To be "the best" though, it will have to definitely beat the 7900XTX in all regards. Not just RT, but also raster. I assume that was nVidia's target: a definitive win. And then it will just come down to pricing.
 
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I'm real curious how the 4070Ti Super will do with high power limit. I suspect that the 285W limit may be hobbling it a bit... The regular 4070Ti can already approach that sometimes and the Super version has a much bigger die (albeit not fully active) plus the two additional memory channels.
 
UnknownSouljer said:
Videocardz has leaked synthetic: https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...er-on-average-than-rtx-4070ti-in-3dmark-tests

The 4070TiS is around 8% faster than the 4070Ti and 14-21% slower than a 4080 on all synthetic benchmarks. Which will probably be a bigger reflection of creativity and productivity benchmarks than gaming, but give at least some indication on expectation(s) of where this card will fall.

So, I would say my assessments were right, I personally wouldn't call the 4070Ti S "near" to the 4080 (or otherwise describe it as "a 4080 for $800"). The 4080 though being retired is still in a difference price class. The 4080S will have about 5% more CUDA cores, be faster clocked than the original (higher power target), and have faster memory. I assume it will be more than 5% faster than the 4080. There will be at least a 20% delta between the 4070TiS and the 4080S. If I had to guess, it won't be more than 25% though. If it is, then the 4080S will have gone from one of the worst cards of all time with some of the worst value to the most improved card likely ever in a segment.

To be "the best" though, it will have to definitely beat the 7900XTX in all regards. Not just RT, but also raster. I assume that was nVidia's target: a definitive win. And then it will just come down to pricing.
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It'll be almost exactly 20 percent difference, 799 vs, 999. Perfect opportunity for AMD to cut the 7900 XTX to 899 and think people will buy it at that price.
 
Decko87 said:
It'll be almost exactly 20 percent difference, 799 vs, 999. Perfect opportunity for AMD to cut the 7900 XTX to 899 and think people will buy it at that price.
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Even versus the 4080 in some synthetics there’s already a 20% difference.

I could be wrong. It will mostly come down to whether or not memory speed, higher clocks, and higher power limit will affect performance past having 5% more Cuda cores on 4080 Super. I would "like" to think that there will be more than a 5% gain. But perhaps not.
 
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The 4070 Ti SUPER looks to be about 10% faster than the 4070 Ti and gets within 12% of the standard 4080 at 2560x1440. The 4070 to 4070 SUPER is a 15% improvement, by comparison.
 
on TPU

1440p
4080..: 112%
7900xt: 103%
70 tiS: 100% (+7.5% the Ti)
70 ti.: 93%

4k
4080..: 115%
7900xt: 102%
70 TiS: 100% (+11% the Ti)
70 Ti.: 90%

A bit closer to the regular 70ti than the 80, except when vram is an issue like 4k RT performance but i am not sure there is many case where it can play 4k native RT max on anyway.

It is a pure 7900xt at $800 killer and maybe even a 7900xt at $775-780 killer (a still common price) if it really sell at $800, which is not bad versus other Nvidia product launched that did not kill anything. But not that good either, it kill it not being better at raster at the same price, but equal performance plus stronger brand name, dlss, better RT, etc.. should still push price down.

Looking at Hardware unboxed video, not sure how much 12 gig of vram was an issue right now... even resident evil 4 did not seem to move and it is an usual suspect, giant gain in last of us part 1 4k if people are ok with lowering option for resolution or ok with 50 fps average for that type of game too.
 
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LukeTbk said:
on TPU

1440p
4080..: 112%
7900xt: 103%
70 tiS: 100%
70 ti.: 93%

4k
4080..: 115%
7900xt: 102%
70 TiS: 100%
70 Ti.: 90%

closer to the regular 70ti than the 80, except when vram is an issue like 4k RT performance but i am not sure there is many case where it can play 4k native RT max on anyway.

It is a pure 7900xt at $800 killer and maybe a 7900xt at $780 killer (a still common price) if it sell really at $800, which is not bad versus other Nvidia product launched that did not kill anything but not that good, it kill it not by better raster at that price, but equal performance plus stronger brand name, dlss, better RT, etc..
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I agree with this assessment. If you can snag a 7900XT at $710 (Egg currently has one model with a discount that gets it down that far) it makes sense if you’re not heavy into RT and don’t need CUDA stuff. However, at $750+ it makes a lot of sense to go for the Ti Super. Now, if AMD responds with a notable price cut on the XTX that could completely change the conversation. The 4080S coming in at only $200 more (assuming there are enough models at MSRP) also makes a pretty compelling argument against the Ti Super.
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QruyaA0ZrLk


AMD pricing the 7900 XT and 7900 XTX at 700 and 900 respectively makes a ton of sense now, not expecting more than 3-4 percent gains from the 4080s. The 4070 Super is the best card of this refresh gen most likely. The card to get from AMD is the 7900 XTX if you can get it around 800-850 on a flash deal. The best Nvidia card is the 4070 Super unless you're willing to go all out on a 4090.
 
Decko87 said:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QruyaA0ZrLk


AMD pricing the 7900 XT and 7900 XTX at 700 and 900 respectively makes a ton of sense now, not expecting more than 3-4 percent gains from the 4080s. The 4070 Super is the best card of this refresh gen most likely. The card to get from AMD is the 7900 XTX if you can get it around 800-850 on a flash deal. The best Nvidia card is the 4070 Super unless you're willing to go all out on a 4090.
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Your AMD prices are off. The MSRP (supposedly temporarily) of the 7900 XT is $750. And it looks like the $710 price is drying up now. The XTX is still, officially, priced at a grand. Lowest price I’m seeing is $945 for an XFX model on Amazon, everything else is $950 and up right now. Of course this could change, but that’s what the AMD market is currently.

I disagree with the 4070 being the best card outside of the 4090. The Ti Super is in a weird spot but with a $1000 MSRP the 4080S is going to be a really solid card, even if there is no big gains from the non-Super. This is really where the 4080 should have been from the get-go and it makes it a pretty compelling option at that price range. The 4090 is literally double the price, it’s not something to consider at all over the 80S unless you really have a specific use for it or have an unlimited budget.
 
Derangel said:
Your AMD prices are off. The MSRP (supposedly temporarily) of the 7900 XT is $750. And it looks like the $710 price is drying up now. The XTX is still, officially, priced at a grand. Lowest price I’m seeing is $945 for an XFX model on Amazon, everything else is $950 and up right now. Of course this could change, but that’s what the AMD market is currently.

I disagree with the 4070 being the best card outside of the 4090. The Ti Super is in a weird spot but with a $1000 MSRP the 4080S is going to be a really solid card, even if there is no big gains from the non-Super. This is really where the 4080 should have been from the get-go and it makes it a pretty compelling option at that price range. The 4090 is literally double the price, it’s not something to consider at all over the 80S unless you really have a specific use for it or have an unlimited budget.
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Oh I didn't mean to say that's what they are, it's what they ought to be if they want to sell cards. I think they'll likely go 900 and 750 for the most part. I've seen new 7900 XTXs at 850 or below on occasion but very rarely. 7900 XT might be selling out around 710 which makes sense.
 
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