Linus: You Can't Trust Apple's Performance Claims

Because they want to sell you their overpriced backup unit.
They do, but Apple doesn't care if it's one of their expensive solutions or a $40 USB drive.
But it at least works to a degree that I have yet to meet an individual who couldn't figure it out.
Not saying they don't exist, just saying I haven't met them yet.
 
Because they want to sell you their overpriced backup unit.
Time Machine works with any external hard drive or SSD. iCloud... well, it can get expensive if you really want to back up tons of content, but that's not unique to Apple.
 
Like when does anyone ever care about promo materials or marketing unless it's to clickbait a video by putting Apple's name in the title?

Oh wow big news, companies spin the shit out of their product descriptions and capabilities.

Isn't this the guy that was walking around his house naked for the internet to see...? Giving out advice and opinions? Thanks, I'm good
 
Like when does anyone ever care about promo materials or marketing unless it's to clickbait a video by putting Apple's name in the title?
That could be more than 6% of this message board, caring about dlss use in marketing promos and a long list of marketing team material claims or difference in upcoming game marketing material vs the actual release game.

Oh wow big news, companies spin the shit out of their product descriptions and capabilities.
To a point:

AMD-Zen-4-Performance-Claims.jpg
10195_48_amd-ryzen-5-7600x-zen-4-cpu-review.png
far-cry-6-1920-1080.png


Perfectly in line with margin of error for cinebench type IPC, I imagine that Far Cry 6 was not too far either if they would be clocked the same.
 
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I have never seen a studio or pro setup scenerio with power draw of wired work station is ever a real consideration when the workloads are heavier VR,Video and 3D work. Noise, sure that might come up (especially for a DAW). But a wired system being a power hog doesn't honestly matter.
 
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I have never seen a studio or pro setup scenerio with power draw of wired work station is ever a real consideration when the workloads are heavier VR,Video and 3D work. Noise, sure that might come up (especially for a DAW). But a wired system being a power hog doesn't honestly matter.
It doesn’t until you have to work in a confined space with them or on a floor with a crapload of them in cubicles all over.

The Lenovo P620’s and their accompanying Threadripper’s and GPU’s are hot and loud, get enough of them on one floor and you end up needing to talk over them. While cranking the AC getting maintenance all up your butt about how airflow is wrong for the setup and blah blah blah, so that’s why mark is freezing while Janet is boiling.

Easier and ultimately cheaper to get workstations that can do the day to day production work then leave the final heavy render/compile/calculations to a dedicated server in a dedicated room.

Desktop workstations are cheap (yeah even at $10,000 a pop) compared to the software they run and the people that sit in front of them.

It’s about maximizing efficiency for the jobs that are costing money at that stage.
 
It doesn’t until you have to work in a confined space with them or on a floor with a crapload of them in cubicles all over.

The Lenovo P620’s and their accompanying Threadripper’s and GPU’s are hot and loud, get enough of them on one floor and you end up needing to talk over them. While cranking the AC getting maintenance all up your butt about how airflow is wrong for the setup and blah blah blah, so that’s why mark is freezing while Janet is boiling.

Easier and ultimately cheaper to get workstations that can do the day to day production work then leave the final heavy render/compile/calculations to a dedicated server in a dedicated room.

Desktop workstations are cheap (yeah even at $10,000 a pop) compared to the software they run and the people that sit in front of them.

It’s about maximizing efficiency for the jobs that are costing money at that stage.
I've done labs full of em, but thats also a space purpose setup for it. Regular office environment would be a different story. So fair enough.
 
I've done labs full of em, but thats also a space purpose setup for it. Regular office environment would be a different story. So fair enough.
Yeah, proper space is important for that sort of stuff.
The Studio is a good product for just that, a Studio, or an apartment.
I love my desktop, but if I had to live alongside it in some 400sq ft 4th-floor walkup with no AC and only 2 functioning outlets, that would be a very different story.
 
I have never seen a studio or pro setup scenerio with power draw of wired work station is ever a real consideration when the workloads are heavier VR,Video and 3D work. Noise, sure that might come up (especially for a DAW). But a wired system being a power hog doesn't honestly matter.
I mean, it doesn't matter a ton but still the efficiency achievement is a good one, and one of the reasons they are so great for mobile. As Linus noted, Apple could and should be proud of and market their efficiency win. Them trying to claim they are the fastest thing EVAR though, well that just falls through.
 
A new video came out that will emphasize how not power efficient the Mac Studio is compared to a competent desktop PC. The video wasn't meant to compare a PC to Mac Studio, but it did measure a 5700X with a RTX 4070 drawing about 320 watts while gaming. Compared to the Mac Studios 330 watts, it seems very efficient. While not a RTX 4090 equipped system, the 4090 spanked Apple pretty hard, and I believe so would the 4070. Linus did use the same argument again in his Mac Pro video with him again flashing images of Prime95 and Furmark. Starting to wonder why Linus Tech Tips never compared Apple's Silicon to AMD's Rembrandt because I think it was very competitive in power consumption.

 
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All I can reasonably say on the topic is for the specific workload I am currently using my Studio, it went toe for toe with my much larger and equally expensive Threadripper. The only difference being the Lenovo was hot and loud and the Studio was not.

An AI platform will be replacing the Studio in a few months time and that will be doing it even faster and in delayed real time (~1h delay) as a subscription service that spread over a 5-year gap is about the same cost as the Studio was.

So the Threadripper went to the metal shop for running the C&C plasma torch, and the Studio is likely going to an Art Room.
 
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Isn't "I will never buy X" just as bad as "I will only buy X?" I'm not a fan of dealing in absolutes, and it's a bit optimistic to think that your favourite Windows or Android hardware brands aren't screwing you over at times. I'm mainly an Apple user, but I know what Android phone and Windows PC(s) I'd buy if Apple got on my nerves.

I'm not apologizing for Apple's murky benchmarking, but Macs are still good computers in the right situations. A Mac Studio is an excellent audiovisual editing rig, especially if size, quiet and power efficiency play any part in your decision. Where it struggles is brute force; even though the M2 Ultra delivers a ton of power per watt, the fact is that a conventional desktop CPU with a monster GPU can throw enough watts and large chip dies at a problem to come out on top in at least some situations.
I don’t think it’s the same thing.

I’ve always given apple the benefit of the doubt but for my needs I could never justify the “Apple tax”. I also think that when you stop caring about having the “worlds best this or worlds best that”, it makes even less sense.

Here’s how it usually goes down for me when looking at an Apple product:

“That is clean, I like that. Pretty decent power too. Not bad! Oh wait, they want $2500 for that?! Never mind.”

I get that they’re a premium product and have marketed themselves as a luxury. If you want to spend for it - it’s your money to do as you wish. It doesn’t suit me and I could care less that people think less of me if I have a PC (I’m thinking back to college here where people are about as vapid and shallow as they come).

I’m short, I don’t think I’ll ever own an Apple computer. On the used market I can get more power for my money, and the newer computers are too nice for me at my stage in life. Maybe later when I don’t have little kids who can destroy a $3000 laptop. But at that point I probably won’t care. I’ve never had the disposable income to drop that kind of cash on something that will be completely obsolete in 3-5 years.
 
I get that they’re a premium product and have marketed themselves as a luxury. If you want to spend for it - it’s your money to do as you wish. It doesn’t suit me and I could care less that people think less of me if I have a PC (I’m thinking back to college here where people are about as vapid and shallow as they come).

All across social media, people are called "the poors" if you have an android phone. Hell, people are called "the poors" if you dont agree with wasting money and glorifying debt on expensive things.
 
All across social media, people are called "the poors" if you have an android phone. Hell, people are called "the poors" if you dont agree with wasting money and glorifying debt on expensive things.
Guess I’ll take my place with “the poors” then. :). Like I said college definitely opened my eyes to how vapid and shallow people are. “I’m better than you because I drive a BMW, have a MacBook Pro, and can do whatever I want (I didn’t work a day in my life for this though and my parents are idiots).”
 
They could start by not soldering the RAM to the board, and not using proprietary NVME drives that aren't user upgradeable.

I'm sure they could change their ways, but as long as their products are not used maintainable and upgradeable they are not for me under any circumstance.
I 100% agree with this statement. Nope. Apple is no bueno for me, either.
 
All across social media, people are called "the poors" if you have an android phone. Hell, people are called "the poors" if you dont agree with wasting money and glorifying debt on expensive things.
Also the number 1 line people go to when defending overtly expensive PC hardware.

"You just can't afford it"
 
Also the number 1 line people go to when defending overtly expensive PC hardware.

"You just can't afford it"
I've seen that attitude quite a bit. That currency doesn't spend with me. Even if I could afford the best all the time every time, what the hell would I do with the still perfectly good hardware I'd be left with every product cycle except resell it at a loss? I'm wholly fine skipping a generation or two, as long as I have decent hardware again when I do upgrade. But real talk, some people have to make the choice between PC parts or food and rent. That's just the reality of it. People forget, there aren't the fatcats at the top without the people whose backs are breaking under them making all that money to pay them with...

I know all too well; I was one of those people breaking my back until it finally broke...
 
I've seen that attitude quite a bit. That currency doesn't spend with me. Even if I could afford the best all the time every time, what the hell would I do with the still perfectly good hardware I'd be left with every product cycle except resell it at a loss? I'm wholly fine skipping a generation or two, as long as I have decent hardware again when I do upgrade.
The best is subjective. Is Apple the best? A lot of people seem to think so. Personally, I look down on Apple users because the stuff I can do with my Android/PC seems beyond them. I recently got a Galaxy S9 to replace my Moto X4 due to the loud speaker never being that loud. The problem I ran into was that I can't OEM Unlock the Galaxy S9, and that means no LineageOS. I could use the phone as is, with Android 10 already installed but I want the ability to install custom roms. You want real privacy, then you want the ability to control how and what software is installed on your hardware. I ended up going with a Motorola G7 Plus because they don't lock the boot loader and stereo loud speakers. I can install LineageOS and it only costed me $70. The stuff I can do with my phones is beyond anything any iPhone could ever dream of doing. Same goes for my PC.

Car Wizard talked about how technology will slowly make cars impossible to repair, but the things he listed are pretty much the same strategies that Apple does with their devices. You aren't better off buying a product that limits what you can do with it to the point where you need to pay a fee to use the hardware that you own.

But real talk, some people have to make the choice between PC parts or food and rent. That's just the reality of it. People forget, there aren't the fatcats at the top without the people whose backs are breaking under them making all that money to pay them with...
Most people are now just charging everything on their credit cards. It's been reported that Americans have record breaking credit card debt. Stuff like Apple products aren't meant for the wealthy, but the poor who wants people to believe they are wealthy.
 
Compared to the Mac Studios 330 watts,
Does it reach that kind of load just playing games....
Most people are now just charging everything on their credit cards. It's been reported that Americans have record breaking credit card debt.
Considering inflation and population growth, why on earth would American not have not adjusted record credit card debt (and less than tomorrow), we should see that record broke every year.

$994 billions in june 2023, it was $930 billion at the end 2019 (around 1,100 billions in today money), population now is around 340 millions it was 328.3 millions in 2019 that would make today credit card debt level 87.2% of what it was in 2019 by capita. It is a bit like stock market in unadjusted face value new high record breaking news, like if in a growing population with a positive inflation, that would not be just the expected norm.
 
From the thread title I assumed Linus Torvalds must have said something... but no, it's LTT. Which is fine.

Apple wasn't strictly telling the truth when they were advertising PowerPC Macs, they oversold what Intel Macs could do in their thermal envelopes (as any number of burned laps can attest), and they're providing a best case outlook on Apple Silicon's value against PCs. This is normal. You can't trust anyone's performance claims uncritically.

What Apple is selling above and beyond its hardware is an ecosystem and a walled garden, and a lot of people find value in them. I have an iPhone SE and an M2 MacBook Air because they're really good at what they do, and I don't value the flexibility an Android or PC might afford me more than I enjoy the power efficiency and predictability of these pieces of hardware in my day to day life. That said, my main desktop is an eight core IBM Power9 built on a Raptor Computing Blackbird motherboard, where every stitch of the motherboard schematics and firmware source code are open and auditable or available to improve. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition, and marrying yourself to any particular platform is... well, dumb. Especially with Microsoft working very hard to monetize and sell every piece of information about you they can collect.
 
From the thread title I assumed Linus Torvalds must have said something... but no, it's LTT. Which is fine.

Apple wasn't strictly telling the truth when they were advertising PowerPC Macs, they oversold what Intel Macs could do in their thermal envelopes (as any number of burned laps can attest), and they're providing a best case outlook on Apple Silicon's value against PCs. This is normal. You can't trust anyone's performance claims uncritically.

What Apple is selling above and beyond its hardware is an ecosystem and a walled garden, and a lot of people find value in them. I have an iPhone SE and an M2 MacBook Air because they're really good at what they do, and I don't value the flexibility an Android or PC might afford me more than I enjoy the power efficiency and predictability of these pieces of hardware in my day to day life. That said, my main desktop is an eight core IBM Power9 built on a Raptor Computing Blackbird motherboard, where every stitch of the motherboard schematics and firmware source code are open and auditable or available to improve. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition, and marrying yourself to any particular platform is... well, dumb. Especially with Microsoft working very hard to monetize and sell every piece of information about you they can collect.
Good points and that desktop sounds sweet. I should also note I am an iPhone 8 user myself. I don’t mess with my phone enough to warrant the customization options afforded by android. I certainly don’t look down on them either.
 
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Good points and that desktop sounds sweet. I should also note I am an iPhone 8 user myself. I don’t mess with my phone enough to warrant the customization options afforded by android. I certainly don’t look down on them either.
I dont even customize mine anymore... kind of a waste of time if you are buying a "vanilla android" phone IMO. Google Pixel or OnePlus. If I was buying Samsung I would install custom "vanilla" roms 100% of the time.
 
Does it reach that kind of load just playing games....
Games put a very heavy load on a PC. If you watched the video he was able to get the wattage down to 260 by under volting.
I dont even customize mine anymore... kind of a waste of time if you are buying a "vanilla android" phone IMO. Google Pixel or OnePlus. If I was buying Samsung I would install custom "vanilla" roms 100% of the time.
The point of installing a custom rom isn't for the UI but for security and flexibility. Every phone manufacturer has a tracker built into the device, and as far as I know the only way to remove it is to install a rom without it. Apple isn't an exception to this rule as governments around the world are trying to push Apple to give up your data if they were subpoena. Some roms just make my life easier and some put useful features like auto recording all conversations, just in case you want proof that some person made a threat over a phone call. Also a reminder that Apple won't let you download an ad blocker and won't let you install other web browsers unless they are built on their WebKit, which means no addons. Things I'm sure Google will eventually try to remove on Android but again custom roms fix that.

 
Games put a very heavy load on a PC. If you watched the video he was able to get the wattage down to 260 by under volting.
Depend on core count and stuff, a 13900k can use less than 80 watt on some game, tend to be 100-140 watt, can go close to 300 watt doing heavy load, would be misleading to assume game achieve to use most of a 13900k and I would not assume they (and the game driverstack) is good at using all of an Mac when gaming.

m2-M1 pro-mac studio on a M1Max was not using much power while gaming at least and seem similar for the studio:

chart-power-instant-apple-mac-studio-2022.png


I would not assume it goes near those 300 watt numbers for playing games.
 
Games put a very heavy load on a PC. If you watched the video he was able to get the wattage down to 260 by under volting.

The point of installing a custom rom isn't for the UI but for security and flexibility. Every phone manufacturer has a tracker built into the device, and as far as I know the only way to remove it is to install a rom without it. Apple isn't an exception to this rule as governments around the world are trying to push Apple to give up your data if they were subpoena. Some roms just make my life easier and some put useful features like auto recording all conversations, just in case you want proof that some person made a threat over a phone call. Also a reminder that Apple won't let you download an ad blocker and won't let you install other web browsers unless they are built on their WebKit, which means no addons. Things I'm sure Google will eventually try to remove on Android but again custom roms fix that.


I havent installed a custom OS since probably 2016... I may try Graphene on my Pixel 7.
 
Depend on core count and stuff, a 13900k can use less than 80 watt on some game, tend to be 100-140 watt, can go close to 300 watt doing heavy load, would be misleading to assume game achieve to use most of a 13900k and I would not assume they (and the game driverstack) is good at using all of an Mac when gaming.

m2-M1 pro-mac studio on a M1Max was not using much power while gaming at least and seem similar for the studio:

View attachment 586840

I would not assume it goes near those 300 watt numbers for playing games.
It depends on the game. CyberPunk 2077 will certainly push a Mac Studio to use over 300 watts. It's hard to compare a Mac Studio to a PC in power consumption when nobody is running the same tests. Linus used Blender to test for power because it uses both the CPU and GPU, but games also make heavy use of the CPU and GPU.
I havent installed a custom OS since probably 2016... I may try Graphene on my Pixel 7.
Graphene's focus is on privacy, while LineageOS what I use is mainly a successor to CyanogenMod. PixelExperience is a rom that gives you everything you'll find on Pixel phones, which I try to avoid Google stuff personally.
 
It depends on the game. CyberPunk 2077 will certainly push a Mac Studio to use over 300 watts.
It does not push a 13900k at all too, I do not imagine it would use most of a 24 core cpu, games does not tend to make heavy use of that kind of CPU
 
All across social media, people are called "the poors" if you have an android phone. Hell, people are called "the poors" if you dont agree with wasting money and glorifying debt on expensive things.
Have you priced an Android flagship phone recently, they are well over 1000 USD. Not exactly for the poor. I agree Apple has a cult like following.
 
All across social media, people are called "the poors" if you have an android phone. Hell, people are called "the poors" if you dont agree with wasting money and glorifying debt on expensive things.
I have also heard that organizations that use Dell computers tend to "not be successful" but that those organizations that use Apple, Lenovo, or HP computers are more successful - can't make this shit up.
Gave way too much credit to gen Z for intelligence, and even boomers at this point appear to have more common sense and knowledge when it comes to both business and technology. :dead:
 
Also the number 1 line people go to when defending overtly expensive PC hardware.

"You just can't afford it"
I can afford it.

Come Aug I'll be upgrading, still deciding if going to a 7950 (new cpu, new mobo, new ram) is a happier choice than all new monitors, maybe 3x ultra wides.

I get more computer, storage, etc for my $ with x86 than Apple along with compatibility to more of the games and apps I want to use. If this were to change my spending might change.

My first computer was an Apple 2, my next computer was an Apple Mac FX, etc. In time cheap 386/486 clones just had the best games and performance. I did dual for a while, I still have a ppc mac mini here somewhere that works just fine.

So... I am not bias for or against Apple.
I am biased for price to performance and availability of games to play.
 
I can afford it.

Come Aug I'll be upgrading, still deciding if going to a 7950 (new cpu, new mobo, new ram) is a happier choice than all new monitors, maybe 3x ultra wides.

I get more computer, storage, etc for my $ with x86 than Apple along with compatibility to more of the games and apps I want to use. If this were to change my spending might change.

My first computer was an Apple 2, my next computer was an Apple Mac FX, etc. In time cheap 386/486 clones just had the best games and performance. I did dual for a while, I still have a ppc mac mini here somewhere that works just fine.

So... I am not bias for or against Apple.
I am biased for price to performance and availability of games to play.

I don't think you're always getting more computer, as it depends on your priorities. I'm more interested in running Adobe Creative Cloud, browsers and audiovisual editors well, in a setup that doesn't take up much space or make much noise. A Mac is great for that; even a regular M2 Mac mini is a solid creative machine if specced appropriately.

With that said, I'll agree that app and game compatibility remains a problem on the Mac. Apple seems to finally realize that Mac gaming could help, but it needs to go beyond simply snagging the occasional big port. It needs to eliminate more barriers to porting (it'd be naive to expect Vulkan, but something) and optimize further. I suspect that's happening — witness the porting kit, Metal 3 and other updates — but it may take a few years to pan out even if Apple is completely committed.
 
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Here’s how it usually goes down for me when looking at an Apple product:

“That is clean, I like that. Pretty decent power too. Not bad! Oh wait, they want $2500 for that?! Never mind.”
Same here. I have other reasons for not wanting an Apple desktop/laptop but I thought about an iPhone when I got a Samsung Ultra. I was paying full price, a price they had recently increased and I thought "Damn, that's Apple money right there, I should at least give the iPhone a look." Well I did... and it turns out that no, it WASN'T Apple money. While indeed the base model was similar in cost, it only had 64GB of storage, and very little (4GB I think?) RAM. Upgrading that raised the price, a lot, quite a bit more than a similar Ultra. It wasn't the only reason I ended up getting the Ultra but it was one of them.

I don't mind spending money on nice things and I'm in the fortunate position of being able to do so, but I also don't like spending for no reason. I'm not going to pay a "luxury brand" tax.

Same kind of deal when I bought a TV. I wanted a QDOLED. At the time you had two choices: Samsung and Sony. Sony had, in my opinion, the marginally better offering. I liked that it was thicker and more sturdy, the Samsung is comically thin which means it bends far too easy. Also the additional heatsink is good for image retention, and the color calibration is better. Cool, I'd pay extra for that... But not $1100 extra, which is what the price difference was when I purchased. Sony wasn't just charging for improvements, they were charging for being a "luxury brand". Sorry but no.
 
Good points and that desktop sounds sweet. I should also note I am an iPhone 8 user myself. I don’t mess with my phone enough to warrant the customization options afforded by android. I certainly don’t look down on them either.

Same here. I have other reasons for not wanting an Apple desktop/laptop but I thought about an iPhone when I got a Samsung Ultra. I was paying full price, a price they had recently increased and I thought "Damn, that's Apple money right there, I should at least give the iPhone a look." Well I did... and it turns out that no, it WASN'T Apple money. While indeed the base model was similar in cost, it only had 64GB of storage, and very little (4GB I think?) RAM. Upgrading that raised the price, a lot, quite a bit more than a similar Ultra. It wasn't the only reason I ended up getting the Ultra but it was one of them.

I don't mind spending money on nice things and I'm in the fortunate position of being able to do so, but I also don't like spending for no reason. I'm not going to pay a "luxury brand" tax.

Same kind of deal when I bought a TV. I wanted a QDOLED. At the time you had two choices: Samsung and Sony. Sony had, in my opinion, the marginally better offering. I liked that it was thicker and more sturdy, the Samsung is comically thin which means it bends far too easy. Also the additional heatsink is good for image retention, and the color calibration is better. Cool, I'd pay extra for that... But not $1100 extra, which is what the price difference was when I purchased. Sony wasn't just charging for improvements, they were charging for being a "luxury brand". Sorry but no.
I am a bit different, but the same end result with Apple. Sometimes I actually am willing to pay the very high "luxury brand" tax because the competition have flaws that annoy me too much. The "top of the line" of the competition are not high quality products - they are just "medium quality", with all the flaws that comes with in modern day products.

But I still end up not buying Apple. Why? Because even if you pay for the very best Apple has to offer, with all the top-end "upgrades", Apple still intentionally designs/releases even their best products with their own "Apple" flaws for various ulterior motives. So you end up with major flaws either way, just one company is charging you a ton more money for the same quality product, while marketing themselves as the "premium brand" that "just works" (when it doesn't).

I absolutely would pay the big money for the "premium brand" that "just works" - Apple isn't that brand - and there are none out there in the markets that Apple competes. So I end up never going with Apple, despite always researching their product to see if there is an exception with that product/year.
 
I absolutely would pay the big money for the "premium brand" that "just works" - Apple isn't that brand - and there are none out there in the markets that Apple competes. So I end up never going with Apple, despite always researching their product to see if there is an exception with that product/year.
I think there's a different between true premium or top of the line and luxury. I'm known to buy professional/enterprise grade products at times because I want something that is built really well and I'll pay for it. That's different than luxury, where you are paying for name and/or style. Sometimes those products are also well built, but not necessiarly.

An example where they aren't is t-shirts. Haynes generic ass cotton Ts routinely win in blind tests for feel and durability over brands like Versace and Izod.
 
An example where they aren't is t-shirts. Haynes generic ass cotton Ts routinely win in blind tests for feel and durability over brands like Versace and Izod.
There is some weird thought process when it comes to tshirts that the thinner and softer they are, the better.

I prefer the thicker t shirts myself and hate the thin "expensive" t shirts to my core.
 
There is some weird thought process when it comes to tshirts that the thinner and softer they are, the better.

I prefer the thicker t shirts myself and hate the thin "expensive" t shirts to my core.
I love spending more for less. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? :D
 
I think there's a different between true premium or top of the line and luxury. I'm known to buy professional/enterprise grade products at times because I want something that is built really well and I'll pay for it. That's different than luxury, where you are paying for name and/or style. Sometimes those products are also well built, but not necessiarly.

An example where they aren't is t-shirts. Haynes generic ass cotton Ts routinely win in blind tests for feel and durability over brands like Versace and Izod.
My example would be BMW vs Lexus. You see a lot of people driving BMW's here, because it is prestige German luxury vehicle. The reputation BMW's have is infamous, and yet people still buy them. A lot of that is due to their history when BMW did make good cars, before the year 2000. Yet, if you look at the resale value of a used BMW vs a Lexus, it isn't a contest. Lexus has true luxury value. It's the same idea with Apple where the reputation from the Apple II and Macintosh computers are still holding Apple's reputation up. Nobody wants to mention the time period when Apple's iMac's looked like a Fisher Price toy, or when Apple was preaching about PowerPC and how it was many times faster than Intel, only for them to go dump PowerPC and go Intel themselves. An Apple G5 today is absolutely worthless, but a Pentium 4 with 64-bit instructions can actually be used today, not that you should. It's now so bad that people credit Apple for things Apple had nothing to do with. The iPhone gets credited a lot for being the first smart phone, but my Nokia Ngage running SymbianOS and HTC TyTN II running Windows Mobile would like to have a word with you. Same goes for the iPod, because the mp3 player existed long before it. Steve Jobs and not Steve Wozniak is often credited for creating Apple's computers. Steve Jobs was so "smart" that he refused potentially life-saving cancer surgery for nine months and instead he ate fruit. Apple's brand recognition is more myth than fact.
 
My example would be BMW vs Lexus. You see a lot of people driving BMW's here, because it is prestige German luxury vehicle. The reputation BMW's have is infamous, and yet people still buy them. A lot of that is due to their history when BMW did make good cars, before the year 2000. Yet, if you look at the resale value of a used BMW vs a Lexus, it isn't a contest. Lexus has true luxury value. It's the same idea with Apple where the reputation from the Apple II and Macintosh computers are still holding Apple's reputation up. Nobody wants to mention the time period when Apple's iMac's looked like a Fisher Price toy, or when Apple was preaching about PowerPC and how it was many times faster than Intel, only for them to go dump PowerPC and go Intel themselves. An Apple G5 today is absolutely worthless, but a Pentium 4 with 64-bit instructions can actually be used today, not that you should. It's now so bad that people credit Apple for things Apple had nothing to do with. The iPhone gets credited a lot for being the first smart phone, but my Nokia Ngage running SymbianOS and HTC TyTN II running Windows Mobile would like to have a word with you. Same goes for the iPod, because the mp3 player existed long before it. Steve Jobs and not Steve Wozniak is often credited for creating Apple's computers. Steve Jobs was so "smart" that he refused potentially life-saving cancer surgery for nine months and instead he ate fruit. Apple's brand recognition is more myth than fact.
That's not an accurate representation of how things went down, or how Apple's reputation is maintained.

The "Fisher Price" iMac (I presume you mean the first iMac) effectively saved the company. It certainly had its limitations, but it sold well precisely because it wasn't a generic beige tower. People still have fond memories of it.

PowerPC did have some advantages over Intel chips, but only in some scenarios... and yes, the architecture and its partners (IBM and Motorola) fell behind. My first Mac, a PowerBook G4, was slimmer, faster and longer-lived than comparable Windows machines at the time; this was before Intel unveiled Centrino and finally started taking laptop CPUs more seriously.

I don't know many people who think the iPhone was the first smartphone. It was, however, the first modern smartphone (large capacitive touchscreen, easy-to-use interface, powerful internet and media apps). Ditto the iPod; it wasn't the first MP3 player, but it was the first all-around good MP3 player (actually portable, easy interface, fast transfers, ample storage).

You do know Wozniak left Apple's hardware design relatively early, right? It's pretty well-known that Woz was responsible for the Apple I and II, and that Jobs only had a peripheral involvement. And while Jobs wasn't directly designing computers, there's no question that he heavily influenced designs from the Lisa onward. Part of what made Apple's products so good in Jobs' heyday was that he gave Jony Ive focus and tempered design dreams with practical/marketing realities.
 
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That's not an accurate representation of how things went down, or how Apple's reputation is maintained.

The "Fisher Price" iMac (I presume you mean the first iMac) effectively saved the company. It certainly had its limitations, but it sold well precisely because it wasn't a generic beige tower. People still have fond memories of it.

PowerPC did have some advantages over Intel chips, but only in some scenarios... and yes, the architecture and its partners (IBM and Motorola) fell behind. My first Mac, a PowerBook G4, was slimmer, faster and longer-lived than comparable Windows machines at the time; this was before Intel unveiled Centrino and finally started taking laptop CPUs more seriously.

I don't know many people who think the iPhone was the first smartphone. It was, however, the first modern smartphone (large capacitive touchscreen, easy-to-use interface, powerful internet and media apps). Ditto the iPod; it wasn't the first MP3 player, but it was the first all-around good MP3 player (actually portable, easy interface, fast transfers, ample storage).

You do know Wozniak left Apple's hardware design relatively early, right? It's pretty well-known that Woz was responsible for the Apple I and II, and that Jobs only had a peripheral involvement. And while Jobs wasn't directly designing computers, there's no question that he heavily influenced designs from the Lisa onward. Part of what made Apple's products so good in Jobs' heyday was that he gave Jony Ive focus and tempered design dreams with practical/marketing realities.
Yeah, what saved Apple was Steve Jobs coming in and putting a quick stop to the PowerPC enthusiast stuff that was running the company into the ground. While those were technically the best Macs from a hardware and openness perspective - It was basically Apple turning into a Dell which was a battle they 100% were going to loose.
 
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