WoW; 5th expansion Warlords of Draenor

[kidstechno]

You forgot flex. So 5.

Flex is becoming Normal, so there will be:

LFR (staying the same) 10-25 flexible group
Normal (used to be Flex) 10-25 flexible group
Heroic (used to be Normal) 10-25 flexible group
Mythic (extreme challenge mode above Heroics) 20 only

 

[Bill86]

Flex is becoming Normal, so there will be:

LFR (staying the same) 10-25 flexible group
Normal (used to be Flex) 10-25 flexible group
Heroic (used to be Normal) 10-25 flexible group
Mythic (extreme challenge mode above Heroics) 20 only

Ah is that what they said, I got lost in making heroics flexible (worst idea ever).

They need to cut the shit with all these difficulties and just go back to separate 10 and 25 man lockouts.

 

[Zorachus]

One cool idea, they mentioned, is to make 5man Dungeons scale with each new Tier with every patch. Like right now. 5.1 dungeons are useless to run with crap gear drops, compared to the 5.4 dungeons, which still suck, but at least drop better high iLevel gear.

With WoD they will make 6.0 dungeons scale up to 6.1 iLevel in the new patch, so running the original 5mans released with an expansion, will still be worthwhile.

 

[Deleted member 232162]

One cool idea, they mentioned, is to make 5man Dungeons scale with each new Tier with every patch. Like right now. 5.1 dungeons are useless to run with crap gear drops, compared to the 5.4 dungeons, which still suck, but at least drop better high iLevel gear.

With WoD they will make 6.0 dungeons scale up to 6.1 iLevel in the new patch, so running the original 5mans released with an expansion, will still be worthwhile.

Yeah they mentioned that and it really caught my attention, they had a pretty specific example as well:

The release of the Zul'Aman dungeon and the ZG dungeon - when these were released, there was little to no incentive for anyone to go back and run the other original dungeons, rendering them obsolete. They want to avoid that and have ALL the dungeons be something people run, as opposed to grinding 1-2 dungeons, and burning out fast.

 

[Mozex]

So are they just going to scale the loot drops or the difficulty as well? Does it scale with the group?

I will always want a challenge but, I also want some easier dungeons that I can jump into as soon as I get to the level cap. I like the concept if they can implement it well.

 

[Zorachus]

So are they just going to scale the loot drops or the difficulty as well? Does it scale with the group?

I will always want a challenge but, I also want some easier dungeons that I can jump into as soon as I get to the level cap. I like the concept if they can implement it well.

Good question. What if you hit Level 100, at patch 6.2, but the 5mans are geared for 6.2 players, not fresh 100's anymore ?

 

[Bill86]

Good question. What if you hit Level 100, at patch 6.2, but the 5mans are geared for 6.2 players, not fresh 100's anymore ?

I couldn't imagine the current system of geared players carrying pugs will change much. Every time I do a dungeon I queue tank as fury and do ~80% of the total damage. Nothing can really kill me, hell I could probably solo. They dumbed down heroic dungeons quite a bit.

 

[Brackle]

damnit cant fine my damn token thing anywhere....moving sucks sometimes lol

 

[kidstechno]

I think Blizzard wants to move away from Dungeons being primary means of leveling. This was pretty evident in MoP as you had maybe 2 dungeons from 85-87 then unlocked maybe 2 more (they added 2 further down the road, one was Siege of Nuzao and I forget the other). They want people to get out and see the world via questing and travel. Dungeons are good to run maybe 1-2 times for quest experience and a decent piece of armor/weapon, but after that it seems like they don't grant a lot of experience. Compared to something like Cata where you could literally just chain run dungeons to 85. But yea, at my current ilvl (563) as a Rogue I can literally tank Heroic Dungeons. They're pretty laughable. Even first leveling to 90, they were pretty easy. "Heroic" just means a guaranteed 463 ilvl pretty much.

I do like the addition of Scenarios where you can just grab two random people and knock one out real quick. And they can be used to advance story lines in little increments. I thought they did an excellent job with the heroic scenarios.

 

[Neb]

Flex is becoming Normal, so there will be:

LFR (staying the same) 10-25 flexible group
Normal (used to be Flex) 10-25 flexible group
Heroic (used to be Normal) 10-25 flexible group
Mythic (extreme challenge mode above Heroics) 20 only

Mythic is not an extreme challenge mode above (current) heroics, they stated that it's equivalent in difficulty to current heroics. Unless I've read your post wrong, in which case please disregard

Ah is that what they said, I got lost in making heroics flexible (worst idea ever).

They need to cut the shit with all these difficulties and just go back to separate 10 and 25 man lockouts.

Current heroics = WoD Mythics

They locked it at 20 to tighten the tuning even more, so that there isn't an imbalance that sometimes happens between 10 and 25 man raids. Separate 10 and 25 man lockouts come with their own set of issues, I personally prefer the flexible setup and I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out in the new expansion.

I think Blizzard wants to move away from Dungeons being primary means of leveling. This was pretty evident in MoP as you had maybe 2 dungeons from 85-87 then unlocked maybe 2 more (they added 2 further down the road, one was Siege of Nuzao and I forget the other).

That may be the case in MoP, but from what they've said during Blizzcon it seems they want dungeons to be a significant part of the story-line and leveling.

We’re also looking to get back to the roots of dungeon content this expansion, and ensuring that they’re not only a significant part of the leveling and story experience as they always have been, but that they also play their part in helping you gear up and get ready for raiding. To that end we’re going to bring back max-level “Normal” dungeons, which—along with Scenarios—will help bridge the gap between level-up quest gear and Heroic dungeons. As Heroics won’t be the first thing you jump into at level 100, it also gives us some room to make Heroic dungeon content a bit more difficult.

We’re also planning our content schedule to include additional max-level Heroic dungeons beyond the initial expansion release. One thing we heard from players during Mists of Pandaria was that they missed having new dungeon content later in the expansion, and our plan is to get back to that and adding new dungeon content beyond the initial expansion release.
source

 

[kohl]

I want to see a return to large, substantial dungeons. What we have had for the last couple xpacs has felt more like an amusement park ride; generally one direction, down a couple hallways.

Think back to Vanilla; Blackrock Depths and Blackrock Spire played like a city, not a dungeon. It was very open in that you could jump off ledges to areas below as short cuts and really had a wide range of places you could go. It was quite a common practice that you wouldn't even clear all the bosses; groups would form to go after certain ones. I hope they return to that format.

 

[Xonim]

Think back to Vanilla; Blackrock Depths and Blackrock Spire played like a city, not a dungeon. It was very open in that you could jump off ledges to areas below as short cuts and really had a wide range of places you could go. It was quite a common practice that you wouldn't even clear all the bosses; groups would form to go after certain ones. I hope they return to that format.

I would agree with you ... mostly. The problem is with the LFD reward system. Think about BRD -- people used to run in for the fire guy to get fire resist gear. Or to the bar for rep stuff. I probably ran BRD 10-15 times before we ever cleared the last guy. With the LFD system, people want the valor from queueing for random, and killing the last guy rewards the valor. Most people are concerned with the fastest way to that valor, and side bosses aren't included in that.

 

[kidstechno]

Mythic is not an extreme challenge mode above (current) heroics, they stated that it's equivalent in difficulty to current heroics. Unless I've read your post wrong, in which case please disregard

Hmm I took as them making something above Heroic in difficulty. Maybe not by much but today's heroics are throw in extra health, damage, and maybe a new mechanic or two or make an existing one really stupid you have to deal with. From what I read/saw, they are going maybe introduce some really unique/crazy mechanics for Mythic only, as well as having Mythic trash (think AQ40 trash which was harder than most bosses). So the instance as a whole requires a lot more thought process than "pull everything, heal, AoE, and next."

I guess we'll find out.

 

[Neb]

Hmm I took as them making something above Heroic in difficulty. Maybe not by much but today's heroics are throw in extra health, damage, and maybe a new mechanic or two or make an existing one really stupid you have to deal with. From what I read/saw, they are going maybe introduce some really unique/crazy mechanics for Mythic only, as well as having Mythic trash (think AQ40 trash which was harder than most bosses). So the instance as a whole requires a lot more thought process than "pull everything, heal, AoE, and next."

I guess we'll find out.

Given proper gear levels, even current heroic raids require more than pull/heal/aoe. They did say that the move to 20man was so that they can introduce more mechanics that can assume certain things when everyone is at 20 (class comp/cooldowns avail/etc), but I don't see them bumping up the difficulty by a significant amount.

You are right that Mythic trash will be Mythic difficulty...along with the equivalent level drops

 

[Zorachus]

I want to see a return to large, substantial dungeons. What we have had for the last couple xpacs has felt more like an amusement park ride; generally one direction, down a couple hallways.

Think back to Vanilla; Blackrock Depths and Blackrock Spire played like a city, not a dungeon. It was very open in that you could jump off ledges to areas below as short cuts and really had a wide range of places you could go. It was quite a common practice that you wouldn't even clear all the bosses; groups would form to go after certain ones. I hope they return to that format.

Agreed. Even TBC had some bad ass 5mans. I forgot the name, but the group of dungeons, that were all accessed in a pit type area, and there were like 4 dungeons to chose from in that area.

Vanilla had some awesome dungeons of course.

Lately the 5mans have just been wham bam thank you mam

 

[Deleted member 232162]

Agreed. Even TBC had some bad ass 5mans. I forgot the name, but the group of dungeons, that were all accessed in a pit type area, and there were like 4 dungeons to chose from in that area.

Vanilla had some awesome dungeons of course.

Lately the 5mans have just been wham bam thank you mam

I remember those in the pit, that was the Auchindoun Instances, like Mana Tombs, Crypts, etc. Those were VERY tough back in the day.

 

[Zorachus]

I remember those in the pit, that was the Auchindoun Instances, like Mana Tombs, Crypts, etc. Those were VERY tough back in the day.

Yeah those are the ones

Mana Tombs and Crypts, dropped some pretty sweet gear, and were tough as hell. Remember those purple electrical dudes

Blizz should introduce something like that again in WoD.

 

[Xonim]

Yeah those are the ones

Mana Tombs and Crypts, dropped some pretty sweet gear, and were tough as hell. Remember those purple electrical dudes

Blizz should introduce something like that again in WoD.

As someone who played my holy paladin a lot in TBC, I hated crypts because of the first boss. I did it once, and that was it.

My favorite 5-mans of all time are, in this order:

Shattered Halls, Mechanar, Shadow Labs, Magister's Terrace, and old UD Strat.

Clearly, TBC was prime for 5-man dungeons. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever see anything like that again because WoW is too casual and anything that requires CC is too hard.

 

[Deleted member 232162]

Yeah those are the ones

Mana Tombs and Crypts, dropped some pretty sweet gear, and were tough as hell. Remember those purple electrical dudes

Blizz should introduce something like that again in WoD.

IMO the Tempest Keep instances were just as hard, if not harder. Remember that shit? Hours of frustration.

 

[kidstechno]

I would love to have challenging dungeons back but I think World of Warcraft is at the point where the majority of players play casually/to have fun. Wiping to a small dungeons for hours is not exactly fun. I think that's where MoP came into play. Heroics weren't necessarily Heroics per say, but improved difficulty dungeons for the purpose of loot. To balance this, they offered Challenge modes which scaled down gear and made mobs hit like trucks as well as adding a few new mechanics to some. Especially with a timed mechanic, they were pretty challenging.

Going forward, I think Blizzard wants to focus more on specific levels of contents for each type of player. You can even see it from their new screenshots of "how to level your character" system they're implementing. Dungeons were "labeled" as takes 15-30 minutes. They want something that isn't brain dead but requires a little effort, but that you can LFD with 4 randoms and complete pretty much despite who those other four people are. Scenarios are quicker dungeons that you can do in say 10-15 minutes. They're wanting people to PLAY, even if they can only do maybe 15-30 minutes and not wanting it to be a time sink so the game is more accessible (think daily quests at the beginning of MoP, holy shit that was insane. You literally HAD to do like 50 daily quests a day to really progress via reputation/valor/lesser charms). It'll be interesting to see how they do challenge modes. If they can offer something other than cosmetic/mounts, I think people will be inclined to try them out. Making Heroic Dungeons too hard, which if they're the primary means of gearing a character for early raids/content, will lead to lots of bitching and nerfs which seems to be the norm.

 

[Bill86]

They've dumbed it down way too far, their consumer base is a bunch of skill-less whiners. They did it to themselves. Gone are the day where people worked for shit, everything is given.

BC was pretty solid, I'd mix heroics from BC and WoTLK together and somewhere in there you would have balance.

 

[Xonim]

They've dumbed it down way too far, their consumer base is a bunch of skill-less whiners. They did it to themselves. Gone are the day where people worked for shit, everything is given.

BC was pretty solid, I'd mix heroics from BC and WoTLK together and somewhere in there you would have balance.

This is true at this point, if you're looking at only 5-man heroics and LFR. When you consider "progression raiding," even in "normal" raids, the difficulty is about where it needs to be. Even fights now considered trivial (like Elegon in MSV, for example) were big road blocks for a lot of guilds. It took my raid (2 nights/week) probably 2, maybe 3 lockouts before we finally got him down. Garalon in HoF is another. Now that everyone is 2+ tiers above, of course it's incredibly easy.

Molten Core was difficult when it was new, but once you were in Naxx gear it was pretty easy. This is no different. The hardest part of groups in vanilla was standing in Ironforge spamming /LFG because you've needed a tank for the past two hours.

As for the "everything is given, nobody works for anything," I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I have zero problem doing long, grueling rep grinds on one character, -- in fact, I think it should be required before it gets easy (sort of like the double-rep thing after exalted). On the other hand, as someone with level 85+ of 10/11 classes, a level 70 monk, and an extra level 90 paladin, I appreciate the accessibility of gear. How many people would have multiple characters if it still took 2-3 months to level 0-60 and then spent the next month or two running UD Strat, 10-man UBRS, etc to get geared in tier 0 to be ready for ZG?

I don't know about you, but i'm glad I can play multiple classes (I only had a 60 mage/rogue and 35-40 paladin going into TBC) and haven't been tied to the same character for 8 years because it takes 4+ months to get another one ready for raiding/PVP.

 

[Breath_of_the_Dying]

They've dumbed it down way too far, their consumer base is a bunch of skill-less whiners. They did it to themselves. Gone are the day where people worked for shit, everything is given.

BC was pretty solid, I'd mix heroics from BC and WoTLK together and somewhere in there you would have balance.

You mean everyone and their children are decked out in full heroic tier 16? Do you have full heroic tier 16 on all your alts as well? Damn ez mode......

I'd guess somewhere beteen 95%-99% of the people who complain about wow being too easy havent stepped in heroic raids in a long time if ever. They just live vicariously through the hardcore raiders and (of course) are their ambassadors who speak on their behalf to talk about how easy it is.

Yes, leveling, 5-mans, scenarios, LFR, Flex, and most of Normal is pretty easy, but most who complain about it being easy could not clear the first few heroic bosses even if decked out in full heroic gear.

 

[niomosy]

Someone's been playing GW2.

Eh, lifesteal has been on gear for quite some time. D2 had it long before GW2

 

[ryuen]

Eh, lifesteal has been on gear for quite some time. D2 had it long before GW2

And I doubt D2 was the first game to have it at that.
Lifesteal, vampiric effect, life leach... call it whatever you want but it's probably as old as the genre, maybe even older (references in novels maybe).

 

[Vorret]

This is true at this point, if you're looking at only 5-man heroics and LFR. When you consider "progression raiding," even in "normal" raids, the difficulty is about where it needs to be. Even fights now considered trivial (like Elegon in MSV, for example) were big road blocks for a lot of guilds. It took my raid (2 nights/week) probably 2, maybe 3 lockouts before we finally got him down. Garalon in HoF is another. Now that everyone is 2+ tiers above, of course it's incredibly easy.

Molten Core was difficult when it was new, but once you were in Naxx gear it was pretty easy. This is no different. The hardest part of groups in vanilla was standing in Ironforge spamming /LFG because you've needed a tank for the past two hours.

As for the "everything is given, nobody works for anything," I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I have zero problem doing long, grueling rep grinds on one character, -- in fact, I think it should be required before it gets easy (sort of like the double-rep thing after exalted). On the other hand, as someone with level 85+ of 10/11 classes, a level 70 monk, and an extra level 90 paladin, I appreciate the accessibility of gear. How many people would have multiple characters if it still took 2-3 months to level 0-60 and then spent the next month or two running UD Strat, 10-man UBRS, etc to get geared in tier 0 to be ready for ZG?

I don't know about you, but i'm glad I can play multiple classes (I only had a 60 mage/rogue and 35-40 paladin going into TBC) and haven't been tied to the same character for 8 years because it takes 4+ months to get another one ready for raiding/PVP.

Cannot agree more with this.
Is leveling easier? Yes.
Is it a good thing? Hell yes.

Getting to 60 in vanilla was a pain, you ran out of quest and had to grind for hours and hours, then you had to grind for more hours to get enough money for your epic mount, then if you wanted to raid you had to grind some more for fire resist gear and then nature resist gear.

It didn't stop.

Now? Much, much easier and in fact, they could simplify some stuff even more (removing hit rating is such a good idea, and removing reforging is also quite cool).
Raiding is still hard (if it's not LFR or Flex)

I guess the timesink was fine when it was released, I was 19 and didn't had much to do other than go out in bars and work/school.
Now, I'm very happy that they removed most of the boring part, LFD is perfect so is LFR, flex with Oqueue is awesome.
Rep with the commendation (+100%) is perfect and catching up gear-wise with timeless isle is painless.

It's the most popular MMO on the market for a reason, sure we can look at it and say "oh this was much better in Vanilla" but after saying that and think, was it REALLY better or it's just nostalgia?

 

[Ruoh]

Eh, lifesteal has been on gear for quite some time. D2 had it long before GW2

I was referring to the collections function.

 

[sysTERROR404]

I'm personally interested in the direction they take the storyline regarding the Draenei.

It's about time they picked a race who hasn't seen, or heard of their name in the game for years. No, I'm not alliance, however if I were, I'd be Draenei.

 

[Koolthulu]

I'm personally interested in the direction they take the storyline regarding the Draenei.

It's about time they picked a race who hasn't seen, or heard of their name in the game for years. No, I'm not alliance, however if I were, I'd be Draenei.

Draenei have really become a forgotten race, so anything dealing with them will be nice. Too bad we're getting yet more Orc focus. If there is a race that's need to stop hogging the spotlight, it is Orcs. My Horde main is an Orc and even I'm sick of it.

 

[Zorachus]

I might Faction change my male Level 86 Blood Elf Paladin tank, just been playing Horde so long, and I already have a male Level 90 Blood Elf Death Knight tank, that I have been playing the most in MoP.

And my server, Whisperwind, is like 65% to 70% Alliance, so more going on that side.

What Race should I go ? Maybe try a Dwarf, with long beard and bald head Do they make cool looking Tanks ? What do you think ?

 

[Vorret]

I might Faction change my male Level 86 Blood Elf Paladin tank, just been playing Horde so long, and I already have a male Level 90 Blood Elf Death Knight tank, that I have been playing the most in MoP.

And my server, Whisperwind, is like 65% to 70% Alliance, so more going on that side.

What Race should I go ? Maybe try a Dwarf, with long beard and bald head Do they make cool looking Tanks ? What do you think ?

Not a big fan of dwarves... I made a gnome monk at the start of MOP and I hated the size, you get lost in trash, sucks in water, etc. I'd make a Dranei/Human/NE.

 

[Xonim]

What Race should I go ? Maybe try a Dwarf, with long beard and bald head Do they make cool looking Tanks ? What do you think ?

My favorite looking alliance characters are either human females or gnome males. All armor sets I've found look really good on either model, though I will agree with Vorret in that gnomes can be tricky in some situations. Then again, it can be an advantage in PVP if that's your thing. Humans also have the best racial set in game IMO -- Every Man for Himself is good, but the 10% rep bonus is the best IMO.

I was all ready to transfer my rogue from my dead server to Illidan, then I read that a faction change isn't included with the $25 transfer fee, and would add $30. So ... I don't think so. Guess I'm going to have to grind out a few heirlooms and level more characters. But I'm going to have to start with some gold farming -- I'm down under 1500g on that server after gemming/enchanting last night. I'm still working on leveling mining and then going to level blacksmithing. I didn't make it far with the MoP quests, so there's plenty of opportunity there, but I abandoned most of my quests so I'll have to check some of the major hubs and fill up again.

 

[Vorret]

Every man for himself, if you PVP, is completely OP.
If making a female toon, I'd go Dranei, they have, by far, the best female modele in the game. The male are quite ugly though.

I'd go human, make a male, and transmog to the stormwind guard set, looks great (imo)

 

[Xonim]

I'd go human, make a male, and transmog to the stormwind guard set, looks great (imo)

Transmog to Judgement, equip Hand of Ragnaros, be awesome That's what I did with my paladin, but he's just a JC and AH mule at this point.

 

[Zorachus]

Transmog to Judgement, equip Hand of Ragnaros, be awesome That's what I did with my paladin, but he's just a JC and AH mule at this point.

I found this guide on that gear;
http://firsthandtengen.wordpress.co...tion-journal-2-paladin-tier-2-judgment-armor/

Thanks, my Paladin Tank is Level 86, can I solo these Raids to hunt down these drops ? And how far on the bosses that drop this gear ? Is this something that will take weeks or months to collect ?

 

[Vorret]

I found this guide on that gear;
http://firsthandtengen.wordpress.co...tion-journal-2-paladin-tier-2-judgment-armor/

Thanks, my Paladin Tank is Level 86, can I solo these Raids to hunt down these drops ? And how far on the bosses that drop this gear ? Is this something that will take weeks or months to collect ?

All soloable.
Been soloable for a long time.

Bwl first boss is a bit tricky but they did change the mechanism a bit to easy the pain.

 

[Xonim]

Bwl first boss is a bit tricky but they did change the mechanism a bit to easy the pain.

Oh really? I was not aware of that. I'll have to give that a shot for my 2nd paladin. That was the worst part of farming that set is when I did it, you still couldn't solo the first guy so you have to find at least one person to help get through.

Molten core was easy to solo at 85, but you still need to do the key quest. I know the judgement pants drop off Rag, as does the legendary eye to get the hammer (dropped first time on my paladin, but I was at 15-18 runs on my warrior without the eye or either binding).

I don't recall where they put the helm now that level 60 onyxia is no more. I want to think it's either Rag in MC or Nefarion in BWL, but I don't remember for sure.

 

[Zorachus]

Oh really? I was not aware of that. I'll have to give that a shot for my 2nd paladin. That was the worst part of farming that set is when I did it, you still couldn't solo the first guy so you have to find at least one person to help get through.

Molten core was easy to solo at 85, but you still need to do the key quest. I know the judgement pants drop off Rag, as does the legendary eye to get the hammer (dropped first time on my paladin, but I was at 15-18 runs on my warrior without the eye or either binding).

I don't recall where they put the helm now that level 60 onyxia is no more. I want to think it's either Rag in MC or Nefarion in BWL, but I don't remember for sure.

Where are these Raids located ? I assume in some vanilla zones in Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor ? How do I get to them ?

And can I just walk in there solo ? Don't need to be a part of a Raid group to enter ?

 

[chineseman]

As someone who was addicted to vanilla WoW for years but only played a few weeks worth of BC, WoTLK, and Cata (usually just long enough to reach the level cap and do a raid or two) has the game changed for the better in MoP or the upcoming expansion? To this day I still feel WoW has the best combat feel but arenas/battlegrounds are just awful game modes.

 

[Xonim]

As someone who was addicted to vanilla WoW for years but only played a few weeks worth of BC, WoTLK, and Cata (usually just long enough to reach the level cap and do a raid or two) has the game changed for the better in MoP or the upcoming expansion? To this day I still feel WoW has the best combat feel but arenas/battlegrounds are just awful game modes.

I would say the order of awesomeness goes like this:

Awesome
Vanilla
TBC

Very Good
MoP

Good
WotLK

Wish I could forget
Cata

With the number of LFR's available now, there's enough gameplay there for 8-10 hours / week if that's all you do. You'll never be as geared as the heroic-raiding players, but you'll be good enough. My playtime tends to be a mix of LFR, battlegrounds, a few heroics & scenarios, and leveling alts.

From what they've announced with the new expansion so far, I'm going to guess it will land between TBC and MoP. Heck, even getting rid of hit and expertise scores them a ton of points with me!