Windows 11 24H2 to enforce HW requirement

Zarathustra[H] said:
I have yet to see Co-pilot appear anywhere in any of my Windows machines, 10 or 11 outside of Edge.
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I just got it in the "2024-02 cumulative update for windows 11 version 23h2", KB5034765 a couple of days ago. GPO on Windows 11 disabled it. (I didn't see a process named anything like "windows copilot" so I don't know if it's gone or just hidden, but the taskbar icon is gone.

Here's the link: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...631-3155-023d9141-a5b0-470a-b0f5-2ee3b48f48ce
 
LukeTbk said:
Do you think Microsoft Windows need the windows Copilot to be installed to access your data in what way does it change anything in that regard ? I get not liking the fact that what you type in that window goes to a server and back to you (say because you think it help AI advancement and you do not want LLM type AI to ever get too good).

I mean what uninstalling it do versus never using it ?
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It is still a service running on your system, indexing local data (as the search also looks locally to index content to be found in the search bar when used)
 
DukenukemX said:
This is the problem right here. You can't make hardware requirements stricter while people are already using the OS.
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But the only reason people were able to install Win 11 on the same systems that will break with this update, are people who hacked in the bypass methods, so MS did not "change" the requirements, people found ways around them. MS is just adding more security due to required supported instruction sets for their AI move....

So anyone's windows 11 install that breaks, 100% chance they were already running it on unsupported hardware.
 
MrGuvernment said:
But the only reason people were able to install Win 11 on the same systems that will break with this update, are people who hacked in the bypass methods, so MS did not "change" the requirements, people found ways around them. MS is just adding more security due to required supported instruction sets for their AI move....

So anyone's windows 11 install that breaks, 100% chance they were already running it on unsupported hardware.
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and anyone doing so should have know the "risks". unsupported = youre on your own.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...irements-0b2dc4a2-5933-4ad4-9c09-ef0a331518f1
 
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MrGuvernment said:
But the only reason people were able to install Win 11 on the same systems that will break with this update, are people who hacked in the bypass methods, so MS did not "change" the requirements, people found ways around them.
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If there is a way around them then they are not requirements but artificial roadblocks. A requirement is by definition something the software is unable to run without.
MrGuvernment said:
MS is just adding more security due to required supported instruction sets for their AI move....
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If they tell you it's for your security, you can be rest assured it is definitely not. You know what would be much more secure? Allowing users to disable / not install their AI crap in the first place.
MrGuvernment said:
So anyone's windows 11 install that breaks, 100% chance they were already running it on unsupported hardware.
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Yeah, because windows has no chance of breaking when ran on approved HW, we all know that...:rolleyes:
 
MrGuvernment said:
It is still a service running on your system, indexing local data (as the search also looks locally to index content to be found in the search bar when used)
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my windows copilot does not seem to know anything about the file on my system.

Are you talking about the offfice 365 copilot style that scan onedrive files ? Isn't file indexing for rapid search something that exist since way before windows copilot, maybe people talk about a different thing that what I have in mind.

I thought people were talking about the windows copilot that appear when you click on Windows +C and ask question too, does this copilot index my files ?
 
pendragon1 said:
and anyone doing so should have know the "risks". unsupported = your on your own.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...irements-0b2dc4a2-5933-4ad4-9c09-ef0a331518f1
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To be honest personal Windows installations are without support anyway, it's not like you can access some support service even when you run a fully licensed copy on supported hardware. So you are on your own anyway.

Adding a previously not existing requirement in an update is more like pushing a stick in your wheel, after previously just saying you're on your own.
 
M76 said:
To be honest personal Windows installations are without support anyway, it's not like you can access some support service even when you run a fully licensed copy on supported hardware. So you are on your own anyway.

Adding a previously not existing requirement in an update is more like pushing a stick in your wheel, after previously just saying you're on your own.
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lol ok...
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
That said, I wonder how many users this really applies to though. It really has to be a very tiny sliver of systems. Too old and they won't have NX bit and other things already required since Windows 10 (I think. May have been 8) The list of CPU's that have NX bit and other Win10 requirements but don't have SSE4.2 has to be pretty small.
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The need to update to Windows 11 is more to do with security updates than to do with Windows 11 features. I've ran into problems with the lack of SSE4.1 which prompted me to upgrade to something like a Core 2 Duo E7500 or E8400 because it's still a lot cheaper than buying a whole new computer. These are good enough for people who run a mechanic shop who just needs to keep track of repairs and customer data.
Dopamin3 said:
Except.... this doesn't change the supported processors for Windows 11. If you are already on an officially supported architecture you won't have any issues on this update.

This is only going to affect people who bypassed the TPM 2.0 requirement, in which case Windows 11 wasn't even supported in the first place. This is not changing the requirement, just actually enforcing it. And again some of these architectures didn't even support Windows 10.
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Which a lot of people here think that bypassing the TPM 2.0 requirement wouldn't bite people in the ass who circumvented it. It's more likely that Microsoft is trying to optimize Windows for better performance, and pushing for something like SSE4.2 is probably a smart move. On Linux we now have Kernels like V3, which makes use of things like AVX to speed up performance. Those with even better processors can install V4, which makes use of AVX512. Rather than Microsoft go through the effort to just detect what CPU you have and load the appropriate software, they'd rather you just upgrade. It's cheaper that way.
 
MrGuvernment said:
So anyone's windows 11 install that breaks, 100% chance they were already running it on unsupported hardware.
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Most likely, someone who is running on unsupported hardware (and without SSE4a/4.2) will never be offered 24H2. If it somehow did, it would just fail and roll-back. There shouldn't be any situation where it "breaks" their system, aside from lack of updates when 23H2 expires in November 2025.
 
Armenius said:
In other words, it's a non-issue. A kick in the ass to upgrade people's 18+ year old processor is needed at this point if they're still running them.
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Agreed. Aside from hobby machines nobody should be using a daily driver that old.
 
DukenukemX said:
This is the problem right here. You can't make hardware requirements stricter while people are already using the OS.
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I would argue they haven’t changed the hardware requirements at all because everything Microsoft has listed as supported since day one is still supported.
It is simply changing a particular hardware set from not supported yet functional to not supported and not functional.
 
DukenukemX said:
Which a lot of people here think that bypassing the TPM 2.0 requirement wouldn't bite people in the ass who circumvented it. It's more likely that Microsoft is trying to optimize Windows for better performance, and pushing for something like SSE4.2 is probably a smart move. On Linux we now have Kernels like V3, which makes use of things like AVX to speed up performance. Those with even better processors can install V4, which makes use of AVX512. Rather than Microsoft go through the effort to just detect what CPU you have and load the appropriate software, they'd rather you just upgrade. It's cheaper that way.
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The problem with Linux using AVX to speed up performance is the fact that I can't run an AVX offset with my overclock as AVX is permanently enabled, even sitting at the desktop. Couple that with the fact that AVX is great at turning CPU's into microfurnaces, and I'd be happy if it was dropped altogether.

CPU manufacturers would be better suited improving architectures as opposed to adding silly instruction sets.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
For me floating task bar and Copilot are a deal breaker.

If I cannot completely disable them (as opposed to having them just run in the background unused) that's it for Windows for me. Win11 23H2 will be the last Windows I use.

If I can disable these new unwanted "features" and prevent them from running (not just hide them while having them run in the background) then I might just continue using it.
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You know, you're something of a broken record. I've seen you say "this is the last windows I'll use" at least 10 times. Easily.

Just install the new version, adapt, move on with life.
 
It's what I did. I may not have liked anything new about Windows since 2012 and 8, but it is what it is. Until my game library supports Linux natively in it's entirety, I'm not switching (e.g. ever, since that's not happening...). At least for my main machine.
 
Mr. Bluntman said:
It's what I did. I may not have liked anything new about Windows since 2012 and 8, but it is what it is. Until my game library supports Linux natively in it's entirety, I'm not switching (e.g. ever, since that's not happening...). At least for my main machine.
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You and I both. I wish game companies would make the binaries for Linux so badly. I don't know the complexity of it, but I would think with windows and Linux both supporting OpenGL and Vulkan that they would be getting closer to being cross platform. I've wanted to switch for years, but installing games is usually hack and slash and doesn't always work.
 
Mr. Bluntman said:
It's what I did. I may not have liked anything new about Windows since 2012 and 8, but it is what it is. Until my game library supports Linux natively in it's entirety, I'm not switching (e.g. ever, since that's not happening...). At least for my main machine.
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You have to ask yourself, what is native?

If 'native' is a poor DX wrapper on behalf of the developer, than I can assure anyone wanting to get into Linux gaming that advances in Wine, DXVK and VKD3D have left poor developer ports in the dust. Essentially, as it stands, Linux now supports the Windows API. The only existing roadblock, that only really affects a handful of popular titles, is client side kernel level anticheat - With EAC already ported to Linux under every game but Fortnite. The fact it's not supported under Fortnite holds a certain irony considering the rights holder regarding EAC.
 
Mazzspeed said:
You have to ask yourself, what is native?

If 'native' is a poor DX wrapper on behalf of the developer, than I can assure anyone wanting to get into Linux gaming that advances in Wine, DXVK and VKD3D have left poor developer ports in the dust.
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By native I mean an actual Linux binary with native OpenGL or Vulkan support. Wrappers in my opinion don't count.
 
auntjemima said:
You and I both. I wish game companies would make the binaries for Linux so badly. I don't know the complexity of it, but I would think with windows and Linux both supporting OpenGL and Vulkan that they would be getting closer to being cross platform. I've wanted to switch for years, but installing games is usually hack and slash and doesn't always work.
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The issues, coming from companies that have actually done it, are several:

1) Support is the biggest. Linux isn't a monolith. Heck Linux isn't even an OS really, it is a kernel. So you run in to a lot more variance in what a user will have deployed on their system and thus what you have to try and support. It is just a lot more difficult. Particularly since you often deal with users that don't know anything about how to deal with the OS. They aren't all pro users, often they know very little and can't handle anything but fairly simple instructions.

2) A lot of Linux users don't seem to like to pay for software. Something that a dev noted (private conversation so I'm not going to share their name) is that while they heard a LOOOOOOT of noise on Kickstarter for wanting a Linux version, they saw very, very few Linux sales, particularly in relation to how much they heard people complain about issues. They didn't track users, but they had pretty good circumstantial evidence that not only were less people playing on Linux, but many of those that were had sailed the IRCeas to get their copy. So it wasn't really a big boon, in terms of sales, which of course has to be considered especially when you need to add additional dev and support resources.

3) Not all tools and tool chains are available for Linux, including some pretty nice ones for games. A simple example is Visual Studio. It's easy to shit on it as nothing special... until you've seen what it can do for a large, complex, project with lots of people working on it. It's a hell of a good development environment. It also isn't for Linux. So you either have to have a separate code-base and different tools for the Linux version, or more realistically you have to not use it and use something cross platform. You can run in to the same shit with middleware: You need to do X in your game, and there is an off-the-shelf tool that does it and does it well for not too much money. However if it doesn't have a Linux version, you now have to go and code that function yourself, which takes more time and effort.


Remember that for companies everything always has to be a cost/benefit analysis. The more complex the project, the most resources that go in to supporting another platform. So if you are a dev, do you want to spend time on a Linux version, or a Switch version? Things like that. If it were literally just "click button, have working Linux version with no issues" that'd be great but any developer can tell you cross platform is NEVER that simple, even for simple projects and can be a whole bunch of shit for complex ones.

We'll see how things like the Steam Deck go, it may change that calculus a bit. It'll depend on how much staying power it has in terms of people continuing to use and buy them. Also it's compatibility wrapper is both a blessing and a curse. It helps get people on the platform... but if it works well enough devs will just use it and not bother with native.
 
Mr. Bluntman said:
By native I mean an actual Linux binary with native OpenGL or Vulkan support. Wrappers in my opinion don't count.
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As stated. Using a combination of Wine, DXVK and VKD3D, all of which are included under Steam via Proton and are simple to use via a check box - Linux is essentially Windows API compatible. The term native is becoming somewhat irrelevant.

Even using software such as Bottles, installing games via the exact same launchers available for Windows is in no way difficult assuming the games are listed as compatible.
 
M76 said:
You act as if switching to linux is a genuine option to average computer users. Especially if you don't want to replace your whole software suite. If you even have suitable alternatives.
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The average computer user wouldn't have even upgraded to Windows 11 in the first place. The in place upgrade from 10 would not let them due to unsupported hardware. This could only affect someone who was technologically capable of bypassing the Windows 11 TPM check in the first place.... And yes this type of user can easily discover other OSes that still support their hardware. Finding alternative software may or may not present a challenge depending on their workloads.
 
Dopamin3 said:
The average computer user wouldn't have even upgraded to Windows 11 in the first place. The in place upgrade from 10 would not let them due to unsupported hardware. This could only affect someone who was technologically capable of bypassing the Windows 11 TPM check in the first place.... And yes this type of user can easily discover other OSes that still support their hardware. Finding alternative software may or may not present a challenge depending on their workloads.
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Exactly this...

Those who will be impacted, as noted already, found a way to by-pass the Windows 11 install (which already did a CPU check) So now, Windows 11 is going to hit Windows update, say "Hey! I am Windows 11, you can update me cause i passed go, collected $200!" And then install the update, now the users goes and reboots and POOF! System may not boot "but why!!! MS is so evil!!!"
 
Sycraft said:
[...] they saw very, very few Linux sales, particularly in relation to how much they heard people complain about issues.
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In the audio world it is well known that Linux users launch a lot more bug reports than Mac and Windows. Some find that useful since bugs usually exist in the entire project and Linux users can (relatively of course) report them better.

Audio instrument plugins offer Linux versions quite a bit, audio effect plugins not so much. It's all in the details.
 
uOpt said:
In the audio world it is well known that Linux users launch a lot more bug reports than Mac and Windows. Some find that useful since bugs usually exist in the entire project and Linux users can (relatively of course) report them better.
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Part of the issue though is the wider net you cast for Linux users (like the people here suggesting average people using it) the more they suck at it and the more confounded they get when the solution isn't point and click. I see that at work a lot, we support Windows and Linux in an enterprise environment (a university) and users of both run the gamut. We get some Linux users who know it real well and wanna do their own shit and if there's an issue, can report in detail what is wrong... but we get others who are using it either because some particular piece of software needs Linux or because they think using Linux makes them l33t. Those ones, oh man it makes me feel bad for our Linux dude. Supporting them can be a bear because they don't give useful input, enter commands like they are magic spells, and get frustrated when shit doesn't magically work like they want.

It's also made worse when they want their own brand of Linux. We support Ubutnu and Alma Linux (basically recompiled no cost Red Hat). Most are happy with that. However some come in with some wonky distro they want and often it won't work right with the existing Puppet scripts and has gotchas the Linux admin isn't aware of.

It is just all reasons why developers are not as interested in supporting Linux. Like if it was literally zero cost, zero effort, zero support over what they already did then only the stupid ones wouldn't but it isn't.

Heck even talking about audio, you see some cases where they do use Linux but don't support it really. Waves is a good example. Crack open their shit, you find Linux stuff. However if you go to their site it is Windows and MacOS only. What gives? Well, the Linux stuff is for their SoundGrid dedicated systems. They run some custom Linux variant that Waves uses. However they won't release the plugins for wider Linux use, because of support issues and the fact they don't think it'd be worth it money wise.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Those who will be impacted, as noted already, found a way to by-pass the Windows 11 install (which already did a CPU check) So now, Windows 11 is going to hit Windows update, say "Hey! I am Windows 11, you can update me cause i passed go, collected $200!" And then install the update, now the users goes and reboots and POOF! System may not boot "but why!!! MS is so evil!!!"
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Windows 11 does a requirements check every time there is a feature update. If your system doesn't meet the requirements, you won't be offered the feature update. You'll continue to receive security updates on the existing/old feature update until it hits EoL or you do an in-place upgrade to the latest feature update using a bypass again (hardware permitting). Even if it did attempt the update on a system without SSE4a/4.2, or you attempted a manual in-place upgrade using a bypass, the result would simply be that the upgrade would fail and it would roll back to your previous version.

But you've now made multiple posts pushing a lie that this is somehow going to prevent people's computers from booting.
 
Sycraft said:
Part of the issue though is the wider net you cast for Linux users (like the people here suggesting average people using it) the more they suck at it and the more confounded they get when the solution isn't point and click. I see that at work a lot, we support Windows and Linux in an enterprise environment (a university) and users of both run the gamut. We get some Linux users who know it real well and wanna do their own shit and if there's an issue, can report in detail what is wrong... but we get others who are using it either because some particular piece of software needs Linux or because they think using Linux makes them l33t. Those ones, oh man it makes me feel bad for our Linux dude. Supporting them can be a bear because they don't give useful input, enter commands like they are magic spells, and get frustrated when shit doesn't magically work like they want.
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I'm no rocket scientist, and I use Linux 100% not a problem in the world. Most game issues are resolved using the exact same fixes needed to get certain titles running under Windows. I don't use Linux because I think I'm 'l33t', I use Linux because it does everything I need and then some - Since dropping Windows I haven't missed it in the slightest.

As stated, Proton is one tick in a box under Steam, and Bottles is point and click. Had you been using Linux all your life, you'd be stating the unfamiliarity lies with Windows.
 
Lakados said:
I would argue they haven’t changed the hardware requirements at all because everything Microsoft has listed as supported since day one is still supported.
It is simply changing a particular hardware set from not supported yet functional to not supported and not functional.
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The problem is that a lot of people have circumvented these requirements and are now back to facing the need to either upgrade their hardware or go back to using Windows 10.
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Mazzspeed said:
The problem with Linux using AVX to speed up performance is the fact that I can't run an AVX offset with my overclock as AVX is permanently enabled, even sitting at the desktop. Couple that with the fact that AVX is great at turning CPU's into microfurnaces, and I'd be happy if it was dropped altogether.

CPU manufacturers would be better suited improving architectures as opposed to adding silly instruction sets.
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I don't have a problem with new CPU instructions since that's been a thing since Intel's MMX. I know Intel chips have a problem with heat when using AVX512, but does AMD's new Ryzen 7000 series also experience this problem?
 
DukenukemX said:
I don't have a problem with new CPU instructions since that's been a thing since Intel's MMX. I know Intel chips have a problem with heat when using AVX512, but does AMD's new Ryzen 7000 series also experience this problem?
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Intel have been struggling with heat problems since AVX2, the power consumption and thermal issues just aren't worth it for the gains seen - Especially when you're reducing clocks to control thermals running AVX2+ instructions. Even Linus Torvalds is sick of AVX512 and hopes it 'dies a painful death'. Ryzen processors support AVX, but I believe only Threadripper and Epyc processors support AVX512. I also don't believe AMD processors suffer from the thermal issues running AVX2+ instructions to the same degree as Intel processors.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-i-hope-intels-avx-512-dies-a-painful-death/
 
GotNoRice said:
Windows 11 does a requirements check every time there is a feature update. If your system doesn't meet the requirements, you won't be offered the feature update. You'll continue to receive security updates on the existing/old feature update until it hits EoL or you do an in-place upgrade to the latest feature update using a bypass again (hardware permitting). Even if it did attempt the update on a system without SSE4a/4.2, or you attempted a manual in-place upgrade using a bypass, the result would simply be that the upgrade would fail and it would roll back to your previous version.

But you've now made multiple posts pushing a lie that this is somehow going to prevent people's computers from booting.
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IMHO it would be better if they failed to boot instead of silently aging out of support and no longer getting security patches...
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
IMHO it would be better if they failed to boot instead of silently aging out of support and no longer getting security patches...
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Personally, I'm getting tired of the trend regarding forced encryption under Windows 11 - Especially when it's not even terribly effective, and slow as molasses.
 
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DukenukemX said:
The problem is that a lot of people have circumvented these requirements and are now back to facing the need to either upgrade their hardware or go back to using Windows 10.
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Absolute lies/misinformation. Windows 11 23H2 is supported until November 2025. Windows 10 is supported until October 2025. So even if someone can never update to Windows 11 24H2, and just stays on 23H2, they will still receive security updates for a full month longer than if they were running Windows 10. They will certainly be no worse off.
 
Dopamin3 said:
The average computer user wouldn't have even upgraded to Windows 11 in the first place. The in place upgrade from 10 would not let them due to unsupported hardware. This could only affect someone who was technologically capable of bypassing the Windows 11 TPM check in the first place.... And yes this type of user can easily discover other OSes that still support their hardware. Finding alternative software may or may not present a challenge depending on their workloads.
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You misunderstand. It's completely irrelevant whether they are running W10 or 11, as 10 will become unsupported in 2025 meaning they'll get no choice.
Nobody would take issue with 11 not supporting a bunch of CPUs if they kept Windows 10 supported for at least 5 more years.

It would be interesting to see how far W11 adoption gets by the time they pull the plug on 10. And whether they dare to deprecate 10 if it still has a significant market share.
 
GotNoRice said:
Absolute lies/misinformation. Windows 11 23H2 is supported until November 2025. Windows 10 is supported until October 2025. So even if someone can never update to Windows 11 24H2, and just stays on 23H2, they will still receive security updates for a full month longer than if they were running Windows 10. They will certainly be no worse off.
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Those are different things. Will you be able to use 23H2 indefinitely after support ends? That is the question. If not then they absolutely have to go back to 10 to continue using that hardware, so where is the lie?
 
GotNoRice said:
Absolute lies/misinformation. Windows 11 23H2 is supported until November 2025. Windows 10 is supported until October 2025. So even if someone can never update to Windows 11 24H2, and just stays on 23H2, they will still receive security updates for a full month longer than if they were running Windows 10. They will certainly be no worse off.
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Where is this information coming from? Is there a definite statement that 23H2 gets a "branch" for security updates?
 
Dopamin3 said:
It's not really a rumor. It's fact that Windows 11 builds > 25905 and newer don't boot because of the lack of POPCNT instructions and that Reddit thread shows the Linux command to find the files that require it.

Ultimately I think this isn't anything to worry about. If you're rocking a 15+ year old CPU you should probably be running Linux on it anyway.
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Armenius said:
In other words, it's a non-issue. A kick in the ass to upgrade people's 18+ year old processor is needed at this point if they're still running them.
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I always love the PC elitest that come along and say it's a "good" thing when a company forces you to pay more money for something that you don't need. They assume everyone has the money, time or desire to keep their PCs up to date.

No, it's not a good thing when a near-monopoly forces you into something. Capitalism works great, but only when there are real competitors.

My only question is, will you be able to run this new version of Windows in a VM?
 
M76 said:
Those are different things. Will you be able to use 23H2 indefinitely after support ends? That is the question. If not then they absolutely have to go back to 10 to continue using that hardware, so where is the lie?
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Yeah, of course you will be able to keep using it. Why would you think otherwise? Do you think that you will just start up your computer one day and there will be a big red screen saying that this version "has ended", and you won't be able to use your computer anymore?

To be clear, this is not the first version where support has ended. Support for Windows 11 version "21H2", for example, ended in October 2023. Any computer still running 21H2 still works fine, but all you get from Windows Update now is the latest Malicious Software Removal Tool and Windows Defender updates; no more security updates, etc. Also no different than running an old version of Windows 10, or Windows 8.1, 8, 7, Vista, XP, etc. None of those stopped working after updates stopped.

uOpt said:
Where is this information coming from? Is there a definite statement that 23H2 gets a "branch" for security updates?
Click to expand...

Yeah, the support lifecycle for each feature update is clearly defined at ~2 years as shown in the link in the post above. This isn't new.
 
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