Two years after launch Windows 11 adoption is still waaaay behind Windows 10

Gigantopithecus said:
Totally agree with you on every point except the last one. :whistle:
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The fun thing is for the users 99% of it they never see. It’s a managerial/IT thing.
But for everybody else they sit down on their desktop or laptop, sign in, and do their thing then they log out when finished. They just make the sausages, they don’t care how the machinery works.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Well, it certainly is a balance between running a surveillance state that creates resentment and turnover, and catching people who actually are doing malicious shit (or who have just been foolishly duped)

I just wonder how things are different now than they were - say - 15-20 years ago that requires this increasingly draconian approach.

We already had the internet back then, and it's not as if cybercrime is anything new, yet the norm was for clients to have local admin access to their work machines and very little in the way of monitoring.

Interesting about the decrypting of TLS traffic though. How does that work? Just taking advantage of weak /poorly selected ciphers and systems that haven't been updated to patch for known vulberabilities, or utilizing monitoring software on the client?

I'm just kind of curious, because if SSL/TLS can so easily be decrypted by corporate firewalls, that would suggest that it is mostly useless as a security measure, which I can't believe is accurate. I imagine it must rely on pre-deployed keys on client machines or something like that, just that the in-flight data can be decrypted?

Again, all of this is likely why I have never encountered these systems. I go nowhere near HR or financial data. bouncing between R&D and Operations roles, the most sensitive stuff I ever encounter is IP related, and that is covered by some pretty ironclad patents.

I have been really annoyed by my inability to maintain my own local email pst archives over the last few years though.
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Very different, the state of Cyber Security and insider threats is very real for many companies, big and small. Most people do not think about it, nor actually care. In the case of you being at work, doing actual work, what do you have to hide in the end? If you are concerned that a report can be pulled to show that Joe Blow accessed a shared excel file 4 days ago and changed a field in error, which in turn screwed up something else and resulted in a client being billed wrong, resulting in a drop in revenue reporting, that is great info to know, vs people passing the blame game.

Or also knowing, that they could prove, that you in fact were not the one who copy and pasted some PII Data to an email and emailed the wrong person (can be big fines for that) , should be happy those systems are in place, even if your manager hates your guts and is trying to get you fired)

I do understand, and am one of the first to fight for privacy, but at the same time, when your at work, your are at work and your work is owned by said company. There is so much liability and sue happy people out there these days that many need to take these steps to protect the company.
 
MrGuvernment said:
Very different, the state of Cyber Security and insider threats is very real for many companies, big and small. Most people do not think about it, nor actually care. In the case of you being at work, doing actual work, what do you have to hide in the end? If you are concerned that a report can be pulled to show that Joe Blow accessed a shared excel file 4 days ago and changed a field in error, which in turn screwed up something else and resulted in a client being billed wrong, resulting in a drop in revenue reporting, that is great info to know, vs people passing the blame game.

Or also knowing, that they could prove, that you in fact were not the one who copy and pasted some PII Data to an email and emailed the wrong person (can be big fines for that) , should be happy those systems are in place, even if your manager hates your guts and is trying to get you fired)

I do understand, and am one of the first to fight for privacy, but at the same time, when your at work, your are at work and your work is owned by said company. There is so much liability and sue happy people out there these days that many need to take these steps to protect the company.
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Not even intentional internal threats, but infect a phone or a laptop in a way that’s not being detected especially in byod, remote, mobile employment, blah blah, blah. Things happen, credentials get leaked, malware ends up on a phone or a screen sharing app gets added and goes unnoticed. You need to protect against the things that have managed to get onto a machine so it can’t get the data out.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Well, it certainly is a balance between running a surveillance state that creates resentment and turnover, and catching people who actually are doing malicious shit (or who have just been foolishly duped)

I just wonder how things are different now than they were - say - 15-20 years ago that requires this increasingly draconian approach.
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Ransomware gangs, value associated with stolen data, a method to transact for said stolen data (dark web / crypto), and proof that ransom/selling that information can be profitable on both sides. Been a massive boom since late 2017 to now, especially since COVID, with BYOD and WFH changing access patterns and who touches data.
Zarathustra[H] said:
We already had the internet back then, and it's not as if cybercrime is anything new, yet the norm was for clients to have local admin access to their work machines and very little in the way of monitoring.
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Local admin will rapidly lose you your cyber insurance now - that's a straight out "no" unless you've got a hell of a reason (and generally admin-on-demand with 2FA will do the job now). It's more sophisticated now - hell, there's ransomware and intrusion as a service now.
Zarathustra[H] said:
Interesting about the decrypting of TLS traffic though. How does that work? Just taking advantage of weak /poorly selected ciphers and systems that haven't been updated to patch for known vulberabilities, or utilizing monitoring software on the client?
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Intermediary systems - effectively a reverse proxy going the other direction.
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'm just kind of curious, because if SSL/TLS can so easily be decrypted by corporate firewalls, that would suggest that it is mostly useless as a security measure, which I can't believe is accurate. I imagine it must rely on pre-deployed keys on client machines or something like that, just that the in-flight data can be decrypted?
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Corporate systems have the intermediary certificate trusted - if you plugged a non-corp system into the network (and it didn't just shut you down) you'd get SSL errors trying to go anywhere. Happens sometimes when someone mucks the cert store or forgets to renew the decryptor certificate. https://knowledgebase.paloaltonetworks.com/KCSArticleDetail?id=kA10g0000008UHW. PA is one of the most common - but there are others.
Zarathustra[H] said:
Again, all of this is likely why I have never encountered these systems. I go nowhere near HR or financial data. bouncing between R&D and Operations roles, the most sensitive stuff I ever encounter is IP related, and that is covered by some pretty ironclad patents.
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It'll spread there - patent or not, there are places that don't care about patents, and data spread there is still impactful to the business.
Zarathustra[H] said:
I have been really annoyed by my inability to maintain my own local email pst archives over the last few years though.
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Yeah no - not a chance. That's just - yeah no. Nope.
 
lopoetve said:
They have to get it right once. You have to get it right EVERY time. Defense in depth.
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And you only need one employee to harmlessly bypass a workplace rule they find annoying that makes no sense to them to have your weekend ruined tracking down how the hell one of the servers got tampered with and is trying to upload data to India…

Oh well their paperwork has been processed and they are no longer my problem, that’s an HR/Legal one now.
 
MrGuvernment said:
I do understand, and am one of the first to fight for privacy, but at the same time, when your at work, your are at work and your work is owned by said company. There is so much liability and sue happy people out there these days that many need to take these steps to protect the company.
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Obviously what are paid to do for work is the property of the organization, but there used to be - at least in many industries and fields - a bit of a gentlemens agreement that what you have done in your job is also a part of your professional portfolio, and fair use (of things that are not strictly confidential, like generic business processes/procedures/protocol/report templates etc. that you've written includes keeping a reference copy for yourself.

You obviously can't use anything Design/IP related, or proprietary manufacturing processes, or customer lists or code or anything else like that, but it at least used to be the norm to keep reference copy/memory jogger type copies if ISO/Procedural type stuff.

In or modern era it is completely impossible to keep everything in memory, and most of us use our digital devices as an extension of our biological memory, and that used to be pretty much considered fair game.

I don't think I've ever met a mid level career Regulatory/Quality professionals spanning individual contributors all the way up the chain to vice presidents who didn't have a treasure trove of procedures/policies/examples of stuff they had worked on previously they could dig into to refresh their memories the next time they do it, even if it was from five or six employers ago. And in all that time, I've also never encountered a Regulatory/Quality professional who ever disclosed any sensitive data from previous employers. And this is not like some thing that people are all secretive about as if they are breaking some rule. It's openly discussed in meetings, along the lines of "yeah, I've done something like that before, lets see if I can dig into my files and refresh my memory".

I fear that companies trying to kill this type of fair use using DRM-like technological means is going to wind up seriously hurting a lot of professionals and create a reign of terror where people feel they can't grow their careers at different companies because of a loss of their built up professional portfolio. Like, almost to the point where maybe a a professional employees "right to reference" past non-sensitive/non-confidential work should be enshrined into law. While businesses DO need to protect their confidential data, at the same time they should have no right to deprive employees of their work experience and sabotage their careers.

This is a rather strong anti-labor practice that I have not really heard anyone talk about yet, but it has potentially huge and broad reaching implications for professional employees, and shifts power from employees int0o the hands of employers in a rather negative way.
 
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I have not upgraded the 4 boxes in my signature to Win11, nor do I plan to unless forced.

I am not a business. I use my computers (notice I said "my"?) to surf the web, watch videos, play games, email, and create documents and spreadsheets. I have NO desire to let Microsoft grab a copy of whatever I do. I use Brave, Duckduckgo, and Thunderbird, all to further my goal that I am not monetized by someone else. And that I feel like I get a modicum of privacy.

O365 is anathema to me, as is any other "cloud" databank. Why would I want MY information saved on THEIR server? If they want to data-mine my documents and browsing, they can ask me and cut me into a portion of that revenue stream.

Win11 does not offer me anything better than Win10 does...but manages to change the UI and otherwise increase the amount of "cloud integration" in the OS.

No thanks.
 
c3k said:
I have not upgraded the 4 boxes in my signature to Win11, nor do I plan to unless forced.

I am not a business. I use my computers (notice I said "my"?) to surf the web, watch videos, play games, email, and create documents and spreadsheets. I have NO desire to let Microsoft grab a copy of whatever I do. I use Brave, Duckduckgo, and Thunderbird, all to further my goal that I am not monetized by someone else. And that I feel like I get a modicum of privacy.

O365 is anathema to me, as is any other "cloud" databank. Why would I want MY information saved on THEIR server? If they want to data-mine my documents and browsing, they can ask me and cut me into a portion of that revenue stream.

Win11 does not offer me anything better than Win10 does...but manages to change the UI and otherwise increase the amount of "cloud integration" in the OS.

No thanks.
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Not disagreeing but a quick FYI, brave sells data lots of it, and Google logs the other side too some 95% of the websites out there report back to Google on who was there and what they did DuckDuckGo included, not intentionally but the tracking tools Google employs for data mining are extensive and while DDG tries they are usually 2 steps behind.
 
Guess what Microsoft is doing again to push people to upgrade to Windows 11? They're baaaacK! They're even using Dark Patterns to trick people.

https://www.techspot.com/news/10177...ve-windows-11-upgrade-campaign-intrusive.html

"In 2016, Microsoft's Get Windows 10 (GWX) pop-up offered users the choices of "Upgrade Now" or "Start Download, Upgrade later," meaning those who didn't want the then-newest OS had to close the pop-up using the standard X in the corner of the box. However, the company changed this by introducing a small and easily missed link for rescheduling or changing the upgrade. Following the alteration, anyone who clicked on the corner X was unwittingly giving consent for the upgrade to take place at the scheduled time. Microsoft later admitted that it had "gone too far" with that one."

2024-02-06-image-7.jpg
 
I think Windows 11 has too much bloat, spyware, high requirements and TPM silliness to be more widely adopted. Seems like it will be a really bad time come 2025 when Windows 10 goes end of life unless Windows 12 reverses much of these. Companies don't seem to be upgrading to Windows 11 much.
 
Kirika said:
I think Windows 11 has too much bloat, spyware, high requirements and TPM silliness to be more widely adopted. Seems like it will be a really bad time come 2025 when Windows 10 goes end of life unless Windows 12 reverses much of these. Companies don't seem to be upgrading to Windows 11 much.
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Many would say, unless you have a way above average corporate (emphasis) hw lifecycle, likely even the oldest desktop/laptop items are Windows 11 ready. But... for home users... different story of course.
 
DukenukemX said:
Guess what Microsoft is doing again to push people to upgrade to Windows 11? They're baaaacK! They're even using Dark Patterns to trick people.

https://www.techspot.com/news/10177...ve-windows-11-upgrade-campaign-intrusive.html

"In 2016, Microsoft's Get Windows 10 (GWX) pop-up offered users the choices of "Upgrade Now" or "Start Download, Upgrade later," meaning those who didn't want the then-newest OS had to close the pop-up using the standard X in the corner of the box. However, the company changed this by introducing a small and easily missed link for rescheduling or changing the upgrade. Following the alteration, anyone who clicked on the corner X was unwittingly giving consent for the upgrade to take place at the scheduled time. Microsoft later admitted that it had "gone too far" with that one."

View attachment 633210
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*Shrug* It is 2024, it is not important and besides, it is not that difficult to see, the corporate environment will keep Windows 10 for the time being.
 
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Kirika said:
I think Windows 11 has too much bloat, spyware, high requirements and TPM silliness to be more widely adopted. Seems like it will be a really bad time come 2025 when Windows 10 goes end of life unless Windows 12 reverses much of these. Companies don't seem to be upgrading to Windows 11 much.
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Windows 10 is long term stable, well Windows 11 is only just now being tested so of course, Windows 10 is what companies are going to be adopting to.
 
ManofGod said:
*Shrug* It is 2024, it is not important and besides, it is not that difficult to see, the works Keep Windows 10.
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Except this assumes you have someone in front of the machine to click it. Lots of times a box reboots you're not near and you can't see that (ugh).
 
cjcox said:
Many would say, unless you have a way above average corporate (emphasis) hw lifecycle, likely even the oldest desktop/laptop items are Windows 11 ready. But... for home users... different story of course.
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Bro, we are still running 980X systems from 2010. Only the newest ones are W11 compatible.
 
I built a new PC a little bit ago, and upgraded to 11 from 10 - and the only reason I did that was because I had to do a complete reinstall on a new SSD. There simply aren't compelling reasons to upgrade from 10. 11 is 10 with a facelift, some added bloat, but other wise is pretty much the same thing. For the everyday user (even enthusiasts I think), 10 pretty much = 11, so why bother upgrading? Seems so obvious, I don't know what Microsoft expects to happen. We're lazy - why take on the hassle of an upgrade or risk something going wrong? When people build new machines, they'll probably load up 11 - but there's just no reason to trash a perfectly good 10 installation.
 
Kongar said:
I built a new PC a little bit ago, and upgraded to 11 from 10 - and the only reason I did that was because I had to do a complete reinstall on a new SSD. There simply aren't compelling reasons to upgrade from 10. 11 is 10 with a facelift, some added bloat, but other wise is pretty much the same thing. For the everyday user (even enthusiasts I think), 10 pretty much = 11, so why bother upgrading? Seems so obvious, I don't know what Microsoft expects to happen. We're lazy - why take on the hassle of an upgrade or risk something going wrong? When people build new machines, they'll probably load up 11 - but there's just no reason to trash a perfectly good 10 installation.
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If you have lower end hardware, sure. But if you're running modern X3D chips, Intel CPUs with e-cores, have the need for HDR - Windows 11 is the way to go. I don't understand why anyone bothers using Windows 10. It has a much quicker end of life and you can make Windows 11 look like Windows 10 very easily if that's your bag.

Would you buy an RTX 2080 in 2024 instead of an RTX 4060? I doubt it. Even though they perform the same you want the newer hardware capabilities.
 
Kongar said:
I built a new PC a little bit ago, and upgraded to 11 from 10 - and the only reason I did that was because I had to do a complete reinstall on a new SSD. There simply aren't compelling reasons to upgrade from 10. 11 is 10 with a facelift, some added bloat, but other wise is pretty much the same thing. For the everyday user (even enthusiasts I think), 10 pretty much = 11, so why bother upgrading? Seems so obvious, I don't know what Microsoft expects to happen. We're lazy - why take on the hassle of an upgrade or risk something going wrong? When people build new machines, they'll probably load up 11 - but there's just no reason to trash a perfectly good 10 installation.
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Realizing that eventually, if security is important, you will have no choice... and that will end 7th gen and earlier Windows (desktop) wise.

(go Linux!!)
 
GoldenTiger said:
Lol. You just had to... can we please not turn this into another Linux thread?
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Sorry, Microsoft will end permanently your ability to use any and all computers that are 7th gen Intel or earlier. Don't even dare to do something else with them.
 
pendragon1 said:
lol, except they havent and your posts make no sense.
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Really? So Windows 11 is supported on the CPUs Microsoft said are not supported? I think you been fed some misinformation. But do feel free to educate me on this.
 
cjcox said:
Really? So Windows 11 is supported on the CPUs Microsoft said are not supported? I think you been fed some misinformation. But do feel free to educate me on this.
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yes. you can still load 11 on whatever you want, with a little effort(tpm bypass) or even the proper key. my work's edu key will install 11 on whatever i want, no tpm limits.
there, youve been educated.
1707330449556.png
 
pendragon1 said:
yes. you can still load 11 on whatever you want, with a little effort(tpm bypass) or even the proper key. my work's edu key will install 11 on whatever i want, no tpm limits.
there, youve been educated.
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I think if that's your idea of "supported", I'm going to turn this into a Linux thread. :)
 
cjcox said:
I think if that's your idea of "supported", I'm going to turn this into a Linux thread. :)
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Windows 11 has the same driver framework as Windows 10. So anything that works with 10 should, for the most part, have no issue working in Windows 11. So even if you have to use a workaround to get 11 on a computer, it will work fine.
 
Shoganai said:
Windows 11 has the same driver framework as Windows 10. So anything that works with 10 should, for the most part, have no issue working in Windows 11. So even if you have to use a workaround to get 11 on a computer, it will work fine.
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Correct, today. But it is not supported by Microsoft. They are trying very much to make that very very clear.
 
cjcox said:
Sorry, Microsoft will end permanently your ability to use any and all computers that are 7th gen Intel or earlier. Don't even dare to do something else with them.
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Many business computers are running Windows 10 LTSC which is supported until 2027. For general users, the ability to bypass the Windows 11 requirements is trivial enough that anyone who actually cares enough to want to run Windows 11 on their old hardware should be able to.

Microsoft isn't stupid. They have no desire to piss-off their customers. The increased requirements in Windows 11 were an attempt on the part of Microsoft to shore-up security overall in Windows, as they gradually lose market-share to other platforms that have branded themselves as more secure (Chromebooks, etc). The CPUs that are not supported are all CPUs that have hardware vulnerabilities that require mitigations. That's why they aren't supported. Performance and age are irrelevant.

It's pretty clear at this point that Microsoft doesn't care if enthusiasts and others bypass the requirements and install Windows 11 on older hardware anyway. They could have flipped that kill-switch a long time ago and made that basically impossible if they really wanted to. Instead, they've done the opposite. Windows Update will even provide the drivers for your "unsupported" hardware.
 
I've decided this year I will start dual booting my older systems or transition them outright to Linux. They will likely benefit from the switch and I've been too lazy to learn Linux. The newer ones that are upgradable can go to 11 or 12 down the road. Whatever makes sense once 10 is no longer updated or I get newer stuff that may benefit. As I get older I want to spend more time doing stuff than figuring out how to get something to run.

I'm not going to fool with workarounds I don't need on my older stuff, nor am I going to play with those workarounds for friends and family I help. The stuff works, or it doesn't. If they can't maintain it then they need something else. Maybe a second hand Apple is in their future. Some won't care and will stay on 10. MIL is using a 3770 and FIL is on a 7700. No reason they need a new system and OS for some Facebook games. I helped the BIL swap the PSU on an old Compaq he has air gapped running Vista to balance his checkbook. He's retired TSA. Not sure if he knows stuff or is just more paranoid than me.

I'm not surprised 11 isn't taking over. As others stated nothing really compelling there. So, you get it with new stuff and don't care or finagle it onto your old stuff cause you want to. I'm in the "other" column.
 
Shoganai said:
Which isn't relevant.
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Yeah, outside of some Enterprise environments, you could probably count the people who give a rats ass about what is supported by Microsoft on one hand.

Speaking of which, what does the jury say about running Wi 11 without TPM on "unsupported" older Intel CPU's. Any real issues?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, outside of some Enterprise environments, you could probably count the people who give a rats ass about what is supported by Microsoft on one hand.

Speaking of which, what does the jury say about running Wi 11 without TPM on "unsupported" older Intel CPU's. Any real issues?
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The limitations have to do with "pass keys". So, it depends.
 
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