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Seiki Pro SM40UNP 40"/ SM32UNP 30"4K LED Monitors
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thisnamenotlame
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I'd like a picture of the PBP x4 in use, the settings menu, and a PIP/PBP settings screenshot if you could. Thank you.
Thanks so much for doing this.
If it's not too much trouble, could you also check the monitor's overdrive in relation to ghosting/overshoot? You can test it with this
Here's the Philip's results from TFTcentral as a reference:
Off produces normal ghosting (best), every other setting produces very awful and very visible overshoot.
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Quick first impressions are positive...So much so in fact that I'm starting to wonder if my Philips was more broken than I realized at the time. The stand is worlds better than the Philips with both tilt and swivel options.
With the Philips, I had some good reference points from others to adjust color/brightness/etc. I wish I had those numbers for the Seiki. I'll be back to this post in a bit.
With the Philips, I had some good reference points from others to adjust color/brightness/etc. I wish I had those numbers for the Seiki. I'll be back to this post in a bit.
I just created an album over here: https://imgur.com/a/KvmpS. I'll go through and add some descriptions but I tried to take the photos with the OSD on so you can see which settings were being tested.
WorldExclusive
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Any thoughts on the picture quality compared to the Phillips, color shift, blacks, brightness, white color (cool or warm), glossy screen or matte, viewing angle.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Again, I'll preface with the fact that I had to send my Philips back. As far as I could tell at the time, there was nothing wrong with it that I couldn't fix by squeezing or tapping the top of the monitor to get the backlight to not flood the screen but there definitely could have been a greater issue.
That said, this Seiki does seem to look better to me. The corners seem significantly brighter. Text is a bit more crisp. Uniformity overall feels really good on the Seiki and I'm having an easier time using more than just the middle of the screen to work because of it.
Color Shift. It's there for sure but had I not tried to bring it out with this test, I may not have known. My face is anywhere from 20-30" depending on whether I'm leaning back or not and anywhere within that range, the color shift is nearly undetectable until that test graphic is about 5 inches from either side.
Blacks, Brightness, White color, coating and viewing angle are all very good...as they were with the Philips. I'd say everything is identical.
I definitely prefer the matte black bezel of the Seiki. I just have to get that energyStar logo off of there...
Here's the user manual, as well. http://www.mediafire.com/view/5a21c7raez2y2fk/4K_Monitor_SM40UNP_UM_v5.pdf
That said, this Seiki does seem to look better to me. The corners seem significantly brighter. Text is a bit more crisp. Uniformity overall feels really good on the Seiki and I'm having an easier time using more than just the middle of the screen to work because of it.
Color Shift. It's there for sure but had I not tried to bring it out with this test, I may not have known. My face is anywhere from 20-30" depending on whether I'm leaning back or not and anywhere within that range, the color shift is nearly undetectable until that test graphic is about 5 inches from either side.
Blacks, Brightness, White color, coating and viewing angle are all very good...as they were with the Philips. I'd say everything is identical.
I definitely prefer the matte black bezel of the Seiki. I just have to get that energyStar logo off of there...
Here's the user manual, as well. http://www.mediafire.com/view/5a21c7raez2y2fk/4K_Monitor_SM40UNP_UM_v5.pdf
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MistaSparkul
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Well it was a longshot but sucks this one also has PWM. At what brightness is it PWM? anything 99% brightness and under? Or is it hybrid like the Samsung 4k monitor where anything under 30% is PWM and above that is not.
thisnamenotlame
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Alright, you convinced me. This is the only 2160p60 4:4:4 display with PIP and PBP (x4) and a USB 3.0 HUB. This is exactly what I wanted for my workspace. I hope the panel is good enough and the 8.5ms response time is unnoticeable or I'll be returning this for the Samsung UE850.
Thanks for the pictures Tol.
Regarding the PWM test: You actually didn't need to take pictures of it. The test requires a pursuit camera to actually post proof, otherwise it's invalid. In fact, the test is entirely camera free. So, with just eye tracking, tell me was there multiple lines at 20% brightness or one blurred line?
Regarding the PWM test: You actually didn't need to take pictures of it. The test requires a pursuit camera to actually post proof, otherwise it's invalid. In fact, the test is entirely camera free. So, with just eye tracking, tell me was there multiple lines at 20% brightness or one blurred line?
The Philips Brilliance BDM4065UC also has those features.
Is that test something that will draw out the "issue" even for people that don't have sensitivity to it? I'll have to take a look again, tonight.
I think the monitor stand uses 2 screws that go into VESA holes(and then the top portion is just hooks). I'll have to remove the stand to verify...
WorldExclusive
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So can anyone tell me the difference between this and the Philips BDM4065UC?
Like I said earlier, i'm getting impatient and I dunno if I want to wait another 1+ months for the Philips.
One important difference is that SEIKI supports dual-link DVI! (for me)
I just CAN'T READ shit like this anymore!
PWM IS NOT YOUR ENEMY!!!!!!
Have someone ever think about, why some `hybrid` monitor uses PWM at LOW BRIGHTNESS???
So the reality is:
-Even the `pwm free monitors` looks like they use PWM, but with high frequency (about 20khz= benq) measure electricaly on internals,
-The reason why PWM is better than just simple dimming is that it doesn't cause uniformity issues
-If you carefuly study the datasheets for LED BACKLIGHT DRIVERS you can find out that the higher is PWM frequency -> the higher is the minimum possible background intesity
-Manufacturers are stupid or lazy, because they use either VERY LOW 200hz PWM frequency (which can really cause eye-strain for some people) or very high like 20khz (so called PWM-free) frequency
----> if they use something like 10 or 5 khz, they can provide both acceptable 30 nits background light intensity and not `blinking` one
-Personaly if I have to choose, i prefer low backlight intensity (i'm using computer mostly in dark and too bright screen hurts eyes soooo much)
I'm so dissapointed and disgusted about shitty manufacturers, that i will probably end with doing some hardware tweaks on internals of monitor on my own!!!!
(to get good product for my personal use)
But to the point - if you start to bitching about `EVIL PWM` next time, think about this twice -> because it is very easy to do `PWM-free` without ability to get <30% nominal brightness background!!!!
Apologies for the delayed response.
The test won't flesh out any potential issues to those who are not sensitive to PWM. But, it gives those who are (like myself) some confirmation that this may be worth purchasing. It would also likely allow us to recommend the Seiki over the Philips as the better buy.
I just CAN'T READ shit like this anymore!
PWM IS NOT YOUR ENEMY!!!!!!
Have someone ever think about, why some `hybrid` monitor uses PWM at LOW BRIGHTNESS???
So the reality is:
-Even the `pwm free monitors` looks like they use PWM, but with high frequency (about 20khz= benq) measure electricaly on internals,
-The reason why PWM is better than just simple dimming is that it doesn't cause uniformity issues
-If you carefuly study the datasheets for LED BACKLIGHT DRIVERS you can find out that the higher is PWM frequency -> the higher is the minimum possible background intesity
-Manufacturers are stupid or lazy, because they use either VERY LOW 200hz PWM frequency (which can really cause eye-strain for some people) or very high like 20khz (so called PWM-free) frequency
----> if they use something like 10 or 5 khz, they can provide both acceptable 30 nits background light intensity and not `blinking` one
-Personaly if I have to choose, i prefer low backlight intensity (i'm using computer mostly in dark and too bright screen hurts eyes soooo much)
I'm so dissapointed and disgusted about shitty manufacturers, that i will probably end with doing some hardware tweaks on internals of monitor on my own!!!!
(to get good product for my personal use)
But to the point - if you start to bitching about `EVIL PWM` next time, think about this twice -> because it is very easy to do `PWM-free` without ability to get <30% nominal brightness background!!!!
The 'reality' you're suggesting is just not true at all. I recommend reading over Prad's reviews. They test monitors with an osciloscope; you'll find majority of the monitor's they've tested in recent years are devoid of PWM entirely. Furthermore, hybrid PWM monitors, like the Eizo Flexscan series, generally use 200hz PWM sub 20%, yes. However, sub 20% brightness is 75 cd/m2 -- an extremely low luminescence for anything other than dark room use. Samsung's newer monitor offerings are also hybrid PWM down to 30% but have a very high brightness of 172 cd/m2, which is unsuitable for any type of room lighting.
A PWM frequency of 10-20khz will likely harm no one; however, the reality is that manufacturers typically opt for sub 200hz PWM, instead. In which case, PWM is very bad for most people.
The majority of your post sounds very misinformed, however.
`They test monitors with an osciloscope` -> from what i know every reviewer uses OPTICAL device to test the screens (you have to disassemble the unit to be able to measure electrical signals)!
I'm an engineer with a long history of `personal hobby` to hack `disobedient` electrical devices.
It is just very ignorant from you to write `The majority of your post sounds very misinformed, however.`
->>> because my words are based on:
- actual datasheets of dedicated LED driver chips (like MPxxxx series from Monolithicpower https://www.monolithicpower.com/ ) used in monitors to drive LED backlight
- measurements INSIDE of Benq `PWM-free` monitors (on PCB)
- i even tried to use real dimming (limiting the current to LEDs, which should even cause them to last much longer), but uniformity goes to hell
`the reality is that manufacturers typically opt for sub 200hz PWM` ---> that is the sad fact that i was mentioned, too (manufacturers are stupid or lazy....)
`In which case, PWM is very bad for most people` ---> why to generalise about `BAD PWM`, when the reality is that it is the ugly implementation from manufacturers that sucks??? (200hz is the lowest frequency that LED driver chips support in general)
Again- I DON'T endorse 200hz backlights, because for LED backlight it is really barely acceptable even for not sensitive persons like me.
But please consider my point of view - now i'm using LCD with backlight at cca 30 nits (cd/m2) and IT IS GREAT not just in total darkness when watching movies, but for non-daylight destop usage with many white windows open, too.
I feel comfortable with 60 nits (which is the low border for `PWM-free` monitors) at daylight usage...
Luckily for me, i have the ability to tweak backlight circuits on my own - so with risk of voiding the waranty and spending many hours of work and testing my eyes will sure not strain...
But what about other regular users that don't like to look into `welding-machines`???
I personaly prefer the way without need to mess with monitor internals too!!!
(and possibility to use low brighness is not limiting users liking the high one in any way)
edit:
btw. I realised that the reason why I'm not so concerned about backlight frequency can be my preference for general dimmer brightness.
I'm not a doctor but the high brightness flashing image should be much more bad for eyes than dim image flashing at same frequency....
With high brightness it is probably like looking to stroboscope experience.
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I really don't know what you're arguing then.
When people refer to 'bad' PWM, they're referring to low frequency PWM that causes motion artifacts/blur and eye-strain.
Um.
The first sentence leads in to the second? I'm assuming English isn't your first language, not that that's a bad thing. Regardless, I'm saying most manufacturers opt for very low 200hz PWM, if it's included at all. Such a frequency is hazardous to many people. The 'generalization' was clearly addressed toward such.
Anyway, what you're getting at (high PWM frequency being acceptable to people) is common knowledge around here. When we talk about PWM, we're talking about very low frequency PWM that appears on many a monitor. Most prominently, the alternative to the Seiki uses 240hz PWM (I just went back to check the review.)
I am, however, unsure as to your comment regarding hybrid-PWM monitors. They all use very low PWM down to 70 cd/m2, and most monitors listed as direct current offer the same level at brightness with no perceived PWM, according to these "optical devices" you refer to. You wouldn't use a Flexscan series monitor down to 20% when you can achieve the same thing with a PWM-free monitor, would you?
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No, english is not my native language
The point of my first post was that because of common bad implementation the PWM got so bad name that leads to today's fashion of `PWM free` monitors and general opinion that PWM=EVIL
Many manufacturers then sacrifice low brightness backlight possibility just to be sure that their monitor is ehm `100% PWM free` (at least for optical probes
and noone will bitching about `bad PWM` in reviews...
I'm already surrendering this `war` and i'm settled with the idea to solve it on myself FOR ME...
Till this time i wasn't able to find the answer why manufacturers use 200hz or 20khz PWM and not something like 5khz (maybe it is hard to shield interferences or something similar)
From datasheets of LED driver ICs it looks like frequencies between are no problem for them and this setting can allow both 25x higher the `flashing frequency` and about 1/4 of lowest brightness...
The point of my first post was that because of common bad implementation the PWM got so bad name that leads to today's fashion of `PWM free` monitors and general opinion that PWM=EVIL
Many manufacturers then sacrifice low brightness backlight possibility just to be sure that their monitor is ehm `100% PWM free` (at least for optical probes
and noone will bitching about `bad PWM` in reviews...
I'm already surrendering this `war` and i'm settled with the idea to solve it on myself FOR ME...
Till this time i wasn't able to find the answer why manufacturers use 200hz or 20khz PWM and not something like 5khz (maybe it is hard to shield interferences or something similar)
From datasheets of LED driver ICs it looks like frequencies between are no problem for them and this setting can allow both 25x higher the `flashing frequency` and about 1/4 of lowest brightness...
Mine just arrived.
First impressions without touching a thing... wayyy nicer than my Seiki 39. I am however wondering if it comes with a remote... there was nothing in the box.
Just checked the manual. Yup, no remote. That's kind of a small annoyance.
First impressions without touching a thing... wayyy nicer than my Seiki 39. I am however wondering if it comes with a remote... there was nothing in the box.
Just checked the manual. Yup, no remote. That's kind of a small annoyance.
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Would you mind also checking for PWM using http://www.testufo.com/#test=blurtrail?
Set it to 20% brightness (or any variation of low brightness) and let us know if you see multiple lines or one blurred moving across the screen. No camera needed, just track it with your eyes.
Pretty sure I see multiple lines. 4 I think.
I had this Seiki on preorder for a number of weeks, and it was finally delivered last night -- was seriously excited to finally have it in hand, as I'd bit the bullet and stayed away from the previous 39" model that could only do the native rez at 30Hz.
Keeping this short since leaving work in a few minutes, but signed up for hardforum so I could help provide advice/info to others considering this monitor, as well as discuss any issues with fellow owners.
My quick impressions: first, the thing is just absolutely huge. I had the measuring tape out a number of times the past month, but that in no way prepares you for just how mammoth this thing is sitting on the back edge of the desk. Huge, I say. The screen is reasonably matte -- not fully so, but pretty much how I'd want it. The bezel is unobtrusive and while not as matte as my Dell 24" Ultrasharp bezel, I would not call it 'reflective' either --- it's largely unnoticeable, in a good way.
Piecing together the base, stand, and screen was a piece of cake. Nothing really to note there. The screen is definitely not height adjustable, and you want it down low, right on the desk itself. It took no time at all for me to throw away any notions of sitting it on my Dell E-dock monitor stand. The base is so big it the front right foot would have pressed on the laptop eject button anyways.
Firing it up, it's pretty glorious. It defaults to 3840x2160 @ 30Hz, but that was easily rectified by going into the monitor OSD menu and changing Displayport mode from 1.1 to 1.2. The Seiki box included, to my surprise, both a Displayport cable as well as an HDMI cable... though you'll never use the latter one because it can't do 60Hz, as we know.
At 3840x2160@60Hz, the Seiki is really a remarkable thing to behold. Mouse/cursor movement is superfluid (unlike at 30Hz), and the colours just pop. It's a fairly bright monitor, and I appreciate that it's able to be that way, although I'll probably dial down the brightness a tad. The screen real estate of that native resolution is obscene -- there is just SO much space in which to arrange things, and have them all visible simultaneously. It's the whole reason I bought this thing. You definitely have to move your head a bit to look from one side to the other, or one corner to another - but again, not necessarily a bad thing. What I will say is that, unlike larger living room TVs, I can definitely see where a curved 40" monitor would be quite useful, as I sometimes feel compelled to move myself over a bit to scrutinise, say, the system tray in the lower right corner of the Windows taskbar, etc. A curved screen would make it all a bit more directly visible. On a 65+ inch living room TV, i would not want the curved screen at all.
The one issue I'm having thus far, is that at full 3840x2160 rez, the screen will periodically just go completely black, and then re-emerge in awful 800x600 mode. There is no way to get out of that except for rebooting my laptop. VERY frustrating. No rhyme or reason to when this happens -- sometimes it's within minutes of booting up, other times it can take up to half an hour. But it does eventually happen. I'm not (yet) holding this against the Seiki, but sceptically viewing the Displayport cable that Seiki bundled with the TV. I'm wondering if the cable is trash. So... I'm actually en route to the local electronics store to pick up a decent DP cable, and see if that resolves the intermittent screen blackouts and subsequent 800x600 rez. Will definitely keep folks here apprised of what I find. All in all, however, apart from that (admittedly big) initial issue.... I love the monitor. It is as awesome as I was hoping it would be, and it does the 60Hz just fine. I have not yet tested 4:4:4 chroma, but it doesn't sound like that's a problem -- I'll test it anyway however, and report on that.
Rgds,
Supra92
Keeping this short since leaving work in a few minutes, but signed up for hardforum so I could help provide advice/info to others considering this monitor, as well as discuss any issues with fellow owners.
My quick impressions: first, the thing is just absolutely huge. I had the measuring tape out a number of times the past month, but that in no way prepares you for just how mammoth this thing is sitting on the back edge of the desk. Huge, I say. The screen is reasonably matte -- not fully so, but pretty much how I'd want it. The bezel is unobtrusive and while not as matte as my Dell 24" Ultrasharp bezel, I would not call it 'reflective' either --- it's largely unnoticeable, in a good way.
Piecing together the base, stand, and screen was a piece of cake. Nothing really to note there. The screen is definitely not height adjustable, and you want it down low, right on the desk itself. It took no time at all for me to throw away any notions of sitting it on my Dell E-dock monitor stand. The base is so big it the front right foot would have pressed on the laptop eject button anyways.
Firing it up, it's pretty glorious. It defaults to 3840x2160 @ 30Hz, but that was easily rectified by going into the monitor OSD menu and changing Displayport mode from 1.1 to 1.2. The Seiki box included, to my surprise, both a Displayport cable as well as an HDMI cable... though you'll never use the latter one because it can't do 60Hz, as we know.
At 3840x2160@60Hz, the Seiki is really a remarkable thing to behold. Mouse/cursor movement is superfluid (unlike at 30Hz), and the colours just pop. It's a fairly bright monitor, and I appreciate that it's able to be that way, although I'll probably dial down the brightness a tad. The screen real estate of that native resolution is obscene -- there is just SO much space in which to arrange things, and have them all visible simultaneously. It's the whole reason I bought this thing. You definitely have to move your head a bit to look from one side to the other, or one corner to another - but again, not necessarily a bad thing. What I will say is that, unlike larger living room TVs, I can definitely see where a curved 40" monitor would be quite useful, as I sometimes feel compelled to move myself over a bit to scrutinise, say, the system tray in the lower right corner of the Windows taskbar, etc. A curved screen would make it all a bit more directly visible. On a 65+ inch living room TV, i would not want the curved screen at all.
The one issue I'm having thus far, is that at full 3840x2160 rez, the screen will periodically just go completely black, and then re-emerge in awful 800x600 mode. There is no way to get out of that except for rebooting my laptop. VERY frustrating. No rhyme or reason to when this happens -- sometimes it's within minutes of booting up, other times it can take up to half an hour. But it does eventually happen. I'm not (yet) holding this against the Seiki, but sceptically viewing the Displayport cable that Seiki bundled with the TV. I'm wondering if the cable is trash. So... I'm actually en route to the local electronics store to pick up a decent DP cable, and see if that resolves the intermittent screen blackouts and subsequent 800x600 rez. Will definitely keep folks here apprised of what I find. All in all, however, apart from that (admittedly big) initial issue.... I love the monitor. It is as awesome as I was hoping it would be, and it does the 60Hz just fine. I have not yet tested 4:4:4 chroma, but it doesn't sound like that's a problem -- I'll test it anyway however, and report on that.
Rgds,
Supra92
So here is something odd.
I can get it to work at 60hz, but when I go into a game it defaults down to 30hz every time. In NCP I only have UHD, HD, SD 4kx2k, 3840x2160 (recommended) and that I can only select 30hz. I can't add a custom PC resolution. I get no picture.
When I come out of a game there is no way for me to change the refresh rate back to 60hz without unplugging and plugging back in. I can select it under monitor properties, but it does not change.
I can get it to work at 60hz, but when I go into a game it defaults down to 30hz every time. In NCP I only have UHD, HD, SD 4kx2k, 3840x2160 (recommended) and that I can only select 30hz. I can't add a custom PC resolution. I get no picture.
When I come out of a game there is no way for me to change the refresh rate back to 60hz without unplugging and plugging back in. I can select it under monitor properties, but it does not change.
I never got 60Hz on those first 10 or so available resolutions. I scrolled down and chose something from the next section...the proper resolution was listed plainly as 3840x2160 and I could choose 60Hz from there. I didn't have any issues with the frequency reverting.
Yeah, I don't have 3840x2160 (native) listed in the lower 'PC' section. If I add it through CRU, restart... it will show up there, but after I hit apply, it vanishes.
Very odd.
If I want to get 60hz back, I need to Desktop Right Click > Screen Resolution > Adavanced Settings > Monitor Tab > Change and Apply to 60hz. This does nothing until I physically unplug then plug the DP cable back in. Then it will pop back into 60hz mode.
KazeoHin
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I don't know if you guys have been paying attention to the Phillips thread, but unconfirmed rumours about the phillips using non-square pixels has scared me off grabbing it, seeing this screen using a similar 40" VA 4K panel has me nervous. Can any owner use a DVD or a coin and test the pixel ratio (see if a 'perfectly round' circle in MSpaint or Photoshop bulges at the sides compared to a real-life object) on the 40" screen? I hate unconfirmed rumours, and if this screen used perfect square pixels, I may pull the trigger on this one over the Phillips.
Many manufacturers then sacrifice low brightness backlight possibility just to be sure that their monitor is ehm `100% PWM free` (at least for optical probes
and no one will bitching about `bad PWM` in reviews...
This isn't true at all, and a good reviewer will criticize the use of low PWM frequencies since it ruins motion clarity, as well as defeats the point of buying a 4K display for gaming. Consistent, tearing free motion like the Test UFO Ghosting Test looks considerably blurrier and jittery: https://flic.kr/p/qSbVjo
Obviously PWM won't matter to the many smart people who buy 4K displays and endure screen tearing fests when playing with V-Sync disabled with lower frame rates.
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Welp. I'm at a loss. I can't get it to switch back to 60hz. It randomly does and doesnt. Upgraded drivers, downgraded drivers... nothing. Hopefully it's just the cable, new one is coming tomorrow.
I did get 60hz to stick in a game though, and that was fantastic, but when I came out it popped back to 30hz.
I did get 60hz to stick in a game though, and that was fantastic, but when I came out it popped back to 30hz.