I see this all the time. Honestly, I don't think macOS is really that intuitive - And I own a Mac, I fix Mac's.
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Preventing Windows from "auto" upgrading to Windows 11
- Thread starter kindasmart
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It's not. There should be a mandatory beginner's tutorial for basic things like that when people get Macs.
SuperSubZero
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"you are am go to https://anydesk.com/en/downloads/ and download" (it will automatically select your OS, which the scammer can casually gleam from the user).
As for the distro, unless one is a sadist, you're not going to give grandma a complicated distro. It's going to be Ubuntu (it may even look like the picture on the site) or another popular distro. You're not giving grandma Arch.
SuperSubZero
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As I said, I've never seen those Indian Call Center scam things come in an application. It has always been a web page with a malignant ad. It's not even necessarily a bad page, just one where the ads aren't critiqued. For grandma who is just checking email and doing.. prescriptions?.. it really reduces the vectors.
Dude, I'm running Linux now, it's right in front of me. As stated, the AnyDesk site will naturally determine your OS based on your browsers user agent; but as far as the AnyDesk site goes, it won't go as far as to determine just what distro you're running - You have to manually select that yourself. For the record, I use AnyDesk daily to log into clients machines from my Linux desktop.
As for setting Grandma up under Arch, I'd have no problem setting her up under Manjaro, it's a great distro and it's packaged and easy to install. It's not like Grandma installs software anyway, and as stated Grandma thinks she's running Windows 9.
You also need to understand, these scammers aren't even terribly good social engineers, they're picking off types just like Grandma running Windows 9. They're not going to stuff around with Grandma running Linux.
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I also feel compelled to point out that there's holes in this argument also.
You see, while the scam is naturally leveraging aspects of certain browsers and is therefore cross platform compatible from the perspective of the browser used, the scam is trying to trick the unsuspecting user into downloading 'software to clean their computer of an apparent infection' that we all know doesn't exist; it's not just about calling a number.
The flaw in your argument is that the software the scam is trying to trick the user into downloading never runs under Linux, in most cases the software is packaged to run under Windows, in rare cases the software is packaged to run under macOS - Although it has to be pointed out that Malware (which is what this software is) struggles to access the root file system under macOS the way it almost always does under Windows. It takes about two minutes to remove Malware under macOS, it can take an hour or more to remove Malware using the exact same software package under Windows and even then I've seen underlying damage that cannot be repaired without a full reinstall of Windows.
Once that 'anti virus package' (or PUP) is installed by the unsuspecting user, it goes on to download more and more Malware in the background, slowing the device to a crawl. This is how the scam begins before the real social engineering has even started. So as you can see, the fact the browser is cross platform compatible is irrelevant when the code that makes up the PUP cannot run under Linux.
And before anyone starts harping on about off topic discussion, if you want the off topic discussion to stop, then don't post half truths as a reply and the off topic discussion will end as fast as it began.
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SuperSubZero
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A scammer could just totally take a shot in the dark and say "click the first one" (Debian / Ubuntu / Mint (64 Bit)) and it would probably work. It's just a .deb.
You then proceeded to overlay your personal preference on grandma. "It's not like Grandma installs software anyway" -> If you actually restrain her from doing so, ok, that's how you do it. If it were me, since she probably has some understanding of phones and such anyway, I'd just get her a tablet that matches her phone OS. Then if she decides she wants the Etsy app or some grandma app that's cool at the retirement community, she can just get it.
They could also just move onto the next victim as it's far easier to do so. In fact, that's exactly what they'd do.
Furthermore, as stated numerous times, if the user is running Ubuntu, the software center flat out refuses to install third party .deb's - Making things even harder for the scammer, increasing the chances of them moving onto the next Windows victim. You could set Grandma to auto login and not tell her the admin password - Problem 100% solved and the scammers can't install a damn thing.
You could set up a limited account under Windows, but you're gonna have problems with software that still insists on running as administrator.
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SuperSubZero
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Maybe. Then again, you are forcing an OS on grandma that may limit what she can do, so, maybe she won't have much to steal anyway cuz she doesn't use that PC much.
I do not quite know where you see this. I am on Ubuntu 21.10, and like every Ubuntu before it, when I want Chrome, or in this case AnyDesk, I download the .deb, double-click it, the Store asks for my password, and it installs (side note; I enjoy how it's 2021 and Google Chrome still isn't just immediately available in the Ubuntu Store and I have to install it manually). I guess you can toggle something to break all this from working, but yes let's further restrict what grandma can do with her computer.
Another fun caveat is that both Ubuntu and your Manjaro have conditions that will prompt for an admin password to do certain updates. Which in the case of a PC that isn't used all the time, will be most times it does updates. Again, maybe there's a toggle for this, but then you're just reducing grandma's security.
It's been fifteen years since Vista. Fifteen. If a modern piece of software grandma would use requires admin rights to run, well, scrutinize that software.
Grandma isn't limited in what she can do a all. I run solely Linux every single day, I don't feel limited in the slightest - In fact I don't even think of the OS I'm running. However, the point to running Linux on Grandma's machine is to introduce a software incompatibility regarding Malware.
Hell, just set the OS to open deb's using something useless like the archive tool. That'd be enough to send the scammers running. However, as soon as the scammers work out Grandma isn't running Windows, they'll go running anyway as they're not that bright. This whole discussion is pretty much moot.
I come across software packages every day that insist on running as administrator, many popular accounting packages do so. So all your comment highlights is just how backwards Windows is in this regard. Furthermore, just when are MS going to lock down the double extension exploit? There's a massive security hole that no one's even attempted to patch.
Ya don't say. Took ya long enough to figure that one out.
SuperSubZero
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I'd comment on this but the only accounting package I know is Quickbooks, and well wouldn't ya know...
"There is no need to download QuickBooks Online because it is connected to the cloud, which means you can access online accounting from any device with an internet connection. You can download the QuickBooks Online mobile app from the Google Play Store or Apple App Store."
There isn't even any obvious way to get not-web Quickbooks on their website.
SuperSubZero
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You're not grandma. When the grandkids come over to visit and they want to play Roblox, uh.. what are you gonna do, set up WINE for grandma? Actually we can go the other way with this.. I brought it up before, why does grandma even have a computer? What is grandma going to do that needs a full blown modern desktop OS? If grandma can get by with Manjaro, grandma can also get by with any tablet. The kids can even play Roblox on it.
So breaking the OS is the way to solve it.
I wanted to bring this up before, but it seemed odd nobody is really getting it.. One interesting aspect of all this is we take grandma for granted. How old is she? Let's make her 80. An 80 year old woman. My goodness, she's old. She retired 15 years ago! Clearly she exists in this very retro, antique world of big American cars with 9mpg and houses with tacky wood paneling and maybe an 8-track player. You know what else she had? For the last 15 years of her *working career* Windows existed. For 10 of those years she had access to Windows with a Start button, the Rolling Stones ushering in a mad dash to get to the thousand dollar PC. In the last years of her career the chances she used a computer increased exponentially practically by the week, and she may have even heard of a virus or two.
Give grandma a little credit. She may be old but she's probably not as tech illiterate as some may think she is.
The amount of time Windows has been around has nothing to do with an old person’s literacy.
SuperSubZero
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Sure it does. Unless you think when *you* are 80 someone's gonna just say "oh, Shoganai is old, they don't know computers" and you're just gonna mumble and get back to your prune juice.
We didn't jump from the 1950s to the 2020s suddenly. Grandma has less and less reasons to be so far out of the loop. If we are talking about a grandma today who still has the mental faculties that someone is even considering setting them up with a PC, they probably know how to use a smartphone or tablet. Anyone not able to work those things, nobody is offering them a PC, and they have nothing to do with one.
I've personally worked with thousands of old folks over the years. I'm not making this up. I'm speaking from firsthand experience. This is unfortunately how things are. A lot of them never saw a need for computers when they came out. And now that it's become a necessity for talking to their grandkids and family, they're forcing themselves to do it, and it's very difficult for them. They can barely use tablets or smartphones either. I'm constantly showing them how. I agree that what you are saying is logical ... that computers have been around for a long time ... and they should have learned. But they didn't. I'm of the same mindset that it's very strange that something has been around for decades but people didn't learn about it because that's not how I would be. But they're not me and that isn't how things are. Most old folks that I've encountered are incredibly technologically illiterate with just about anything that has a power button. A very small fraction of a percent of them can kind of sort of get around okay, but they still need help. And now that their mental faculties are not what they used to be, after having not really bothered with computers their entire lives, it's an incredibly difficult thing for them to learn. This modern generation is not going to have that problem when they get old, but the current generation of old folks do have this problem. This is reality.
kindasmart
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I hope pops lives long enough for me to have to do this. He's 90 now but still going strong. And Microsoft played itself 10+ years ago as far as screwing its users. Kinda wish I went to Linux way back then when I still had some PC knowledge and more than 1/2 a brain.
Sorry. I should have mentioned it in the OP, but the new computer I built for pops will run Win11.
I get you. But in my case grandma (my mom) is 86 and suffers from severe dementia. She barely remembers my name, let alone can use a computer. And grandpa (my dad) is 90 and retired at 62.5 due to health conditions. He never used a PC of any kind at work. In fact the first computer he ever used was a Packard Bell running Win95 he bought in the late 90s.
Definitely sounds like any kind of drastic switch - Win11, Linux, mobile OS of any kind - will not work so well. I'd say you can safely ignore the usual crowd who push hard for folks to switch to their favorite OS.
Pretty sure, for now, disabling TPM in BIOS/UEFI remains your best bet. Thankfully, if they DO end up upgrading to Win11, the roll back (at present) is really easy and seamless (I've done it a couple of times to play with it, on a Surface Pro 4). It's even pretty quick, but if you're remote from them, doing it over RDP or similar isn't the best experience (though as far as I can tell, possisble). Eventually I think MS will force the upgrade, but likely at or shortly after WIn10 goes EoL (mid 2025, IIRC).
SuperSubZero
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Why? Any smartphone or tablet can do this, and likely better. What Linux video chat comes anywhere close to FaceTime, and has a protocol likely both parties have? Even Google Duo (if they still use that) is probably tiers above anything Linux offers to both ends of a call.
Again, if you make grandma so tech illiterate that she can't use a computer, WHY are you making her use a computer?
SuperSubZero
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OK, so why would he be using one now? The point of the posts is that "old person, able to use a computer, but I don't trust them." If they are past the mental faculties to use this stuff, they ain't using this stuff.
What does any of that have to do with what I said?
pendragon1
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holy fuck guys.
just turn off tpm and call it a day.
just turn off tpm and call it a day.
Grandma is just an example of the sorts these scammers are targeting. No one's stating Grandma is totally computer illiterate, in the same sense no one's claiming a 47 year old is totally computer illiterate - But as you stated, these people fell victim to a browser exploit that results in a PUP being installed on the unsuspecting victim's Windows or in very few cases a macOS machine, if they don't physically ring the scammers direct first, that's the start of this scam. Furthermore, tablets are being targeted, more specifically phones as the scammers are looking for MFA codes using Anydesk to remotely access mobile devices - This is where convenience, a common platform, and ease of installation results in less security. Chromium based browsers are a big problem, as part of the attack exploits the browsers inbuilt advertising functionality - Why a browser needs 'inbuilt' advertising functionality is beyond my comprehension. Hence the reason I don't use Chromium based browsers.
Linux is not a wasteland, it's not even hard to use, it still uses the same icons for Chrome and Firefox as well as the usual envelope or stamp for the mail client - Linux is just 'different' and somewhat fragmented, that's enough to make it more secure. I can make a Linux desktop look identical to Windows or MacOS, but installing software is going to involve more than just clicking a link or a button on a website that says 'Linux' as there's many flavors of Linux, and I personally like that fact. So if you can remove a slight amount of convenience from the chain, whether the meatbag in front of the machine is at fault or not, you break the chain and the scammer moves on; you know as well as I do that none of these scammers are targeting or even interested in targeting Linux devices. They want the easy target, they want the common platform that's not fragmented with a familiar software installation interface.
Only today I had another poor individual ring me, they'd fallen victim to this exact scam under Windows to the tune of $40k out of the business account - They won't get that back unless these scammers are caught, and they won't be caught.
As for Roblox, do you have any idea how much malicious software, RAT's and Trojans are spread via Roblox chat? People targeting kids telling them that if they click this link and follow the instructions they'll get free Robux, kids are literally the perfect exploit. I know as it happened to my Daughter on her Windows based machine, luckily I was home having lunch when the scammers fired up the RAT they'd installed and the mouse started moving around the screen opening windows by itself. You never, ever, let the kids play Roblox on any machine that may contain sensitive information or banking/business credentials. I can assure you, Grandma knows about internet banking. She really has no idea about installing VLC media player or printer drivers, but she knows internet banking.
Furthermore, I use Zoom on my Linux desktop all the time to talk to people overseas. I'm done, this conversation's moot as scammers aren't targeting Linux machines to begin with.
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kindasmart
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He need a computer for Email, on-line banking, frickbook, huge public library users and use reservation system, checking racing (F1, CART, Nascar) boards, ESPN and other sports, etc.
The problem is when Windows, Gmail, web sites, etc, update how there stuff looks and works. He's then at a loss on how to "just make it work" like before "everything" changed.
GoldenTiger
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All of that can be done through a phone or tablet... Not advocating for a change, but it is true.
kindasmart
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True. But its a different way to do things that must be learned. Plus you need more manual dexterity to work a phone vs a keyboard. He needs a 27" 1080p screen due to failing eyesight as well.
SuperSubZero
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The modern smartphone has existed for 15 years, they've sold about infinity-1 of them, and thanks to programs like "Obama Phone" they can be had cheap or free. If someone would be totally brand new to a smartphone in December 2021, one really needs to evaluate what this person actually needs.
You have persistently shown you know absolutely nothing about old people. Please stop.
Can you just stop? You're not helping, at all, at this point. You can't just overcome manual dexterity and vision issues by telling OP what they do and don't need.
SuperSubZero
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Then should this person be using a computer? Does a keyboard and a mouse help?
SuperSubZero
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I know plenty of old people, and they all have smartphones. Every single one of them. Even the most physically encumbered. They have phones and they are capable of making calls and sending texts and emails. Not all of them have computers, and they are fine with that.
What are they, 35?
The actual old people I know want flip phones with giant buttons.
None of this matters. The OP knows his family, knows what they want, and how they use it. You're trying to force him to change something that works well for them, when the ENTIRE POINT of this thread was to find a way to keep exactly that from happening. It doesn't matter who you know, what you think you know, or what questions you ask. Just STFU and let the OP alone.
ElementDave
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I think the answer depends on your role in your father's computing and whether you're effectively the administer of his PC. Are you the one responsible for installing software updates?
At the very least, make sure that your father's account is not a member of the Administrators group, and adjust the UAC policy settings so that "Behavior of the elevation prompt for administrators in Admin Approval Mode" is set to "Prompt for credentials on the secure desktop". Create a separate password-protected account for administrative purposes.
Everyone should be doing that anyway, as UAC doesn't replace the need for a separate administrator account. These are Microsoft's own recommendations, with which I agree:
I've been using a standard user account for day-to-day activities since Windows XP without difficulty. Your father shouldn't notice any difference at all.
Enterprise editions aren't even eligible for free "upgrades", so they would solve your problem if you had access — but you probably don't.
SuperSubZero
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https://www.aarp.org/research/topic...9/2020-technology-trends-older-americans.html
"In 2014, when 8 in 10 younger Americans owned a smartphone, only half of adults over 50 owned one. Today, smartphone adoption is 86 percent among Americans age 50 to 59 and 81 percent for those 60 to 69. Meanwhile, 62 percent of those 70 and older use smartphones."
If you think you know old people better than AARP, go ahead and correct them.
SuperSubZero
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I thought the OP was done a while ago. The Linux folks crawled into the thread and it became one of those again.
On a computer that can directly support Win11, the notification is pretty tame, it pops up in Windows Update, maybe a notification? It's not particularly persistent, and I thought all this was already known.
Yes, most of them have computers and smartphones. What’s your point? Is there a point? Because the point hasn’t changed, just your embarrassing responses.
Executioner
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