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Ah... ye olde courage.Not such terrible company to be in, is it?
I see. Hmm... Looks like the hexagonal tiling may be suboptimal when it comes to fan noise, as well.Haven't considered hex vents, and doubt I will. IMO round, square, or slotted are best aesthetically.
"SFF" and "more room" tend to be mutually exclusive things, though. If you're interested in an oversized Mini-ITX case, you should take a look at CaseLabs (or just buy a Manta).So, for ME, SFF ITX builds are what I crave...!
BUT...! I also want to water cool, so that needs more room...
What's the point of that? Just curious.Super ideal, no compromises for me would be INDIVIDUAL loops for the CPU & GPU, each component controls itself...
So, for ME, SFF ITX builds are what I crave...!
BUT...! I also want to water cool, so that needs more room...
"SFF" and "more room" tend to be mutually exclusive things, though. If you're interested in an oversized Mini-ITX case, you should take a look at CaseLabs (or just buy a Manta).
Super ideal, no compromises for me would be INDIVIDUAL loops for the CPU & GPU, each component controls itself...
What's the point of that? Just curious.
The company that we found to do it bailed on us, unfortunately.
Why not just connect each component to its respective set of radiator fans? Adding a second loop would result in additional points of failure, increased power consumption, and more noise (not to mention the extra expenses).Just as I said; with individual loops, no matter which system gets hot (CPU or GPU) each component controls & cools itself as needed...
Why not just connect each component to its respective set of radiator fans? Adding a second loop would result in additional points of failure, increased power consumption, and more noise (not to mention the extra expenses).
I'll just leave this here: http://www.swiftech.com/whitepapers.aspxAttaching the fans to the individual component would not control the pumps individually...
Independent loops for CPU & GPU would basically just add a second reservoir / pump combo unit to the mix (maximum 18w power consumption...?), everything else would be the same (just split into two distinct loops)...
I'll just leave this here: http://www.swiftech.com/whitepapers.aspx
The company that we found to do it bailed on us, unfortunately.
Changing the frame to steel is even more problematic than powder coating, unfortunately. A lot of things depend on the material being 1.5mm thick, which is too thick for steel. You can't flush fit countersink screws in less than that, for example. It would require a complete re-engineering and in many cases a rethink of the chassis. For the stripped screw threads, we did add steel inserts where the fan bracket attaches, which are some of the most used screws on the case. Personally, I've never stripped a single thread on the case, but I understand it can happen if people use the wrong screws or overtighten them.
I don't know to what extent we'll be able to fix these issues on the current M1, honestly, since like I said, they require a total re-engineering effort. It's good to have the feedback though, regardless, because at least I can use it to improve on future designs.
So, coming back to this. Other than having to redo the dimensions to account for 0.8mm steel over 1.5mm aluminium, what else would you need to change? I spoke to an engineer I know about all this and he said it isn't true that you couldn't countersink a screw with a thinner material - you most definitely could with 0.8mm steel. As the case doesn't really need to bear any real loads it should be even less problematic. I imagine this was a big issue to you seeing as you wanted the panels to stay fitting. He also said that in terms of working with the material in machining, steel is equally as easy as aluminium (he criticised Lian-Li for being cheap with aluminium when they could easily use steel, the only issue is the tooling would wear faster). What else would be a problem when converting to steel? I'm guessing expense is also another major thing.
Edit: Additional benefit. With the frame being magnetic, you could scrap the pin idea and use neodymium magnets to attach the side panels to the frame. It would remove an additional point of failure over the long term and would still take a bit of force to remove them.
Firstly let me say - I don't mean to shut down your idea. . . just leaving some points to consider
Perhaps it's worth considering that really steel is not required? There may be a few people who have had issues but I would say they are definitely in the minority.. I don't know how many cases have shipped but if there was an issue with any of the revisions then it would have been picked up already no?
As for switching to steel:
- Minimum bend radius is different
- Case design would need to change for internal corners, lips and flanges
- Production line would need to change existing fixtures, new mandrels made etc.
- Case supplier might need to change
- Production method for ventilation holes may need to change ( Issues such as hole size, density, cut versus punch )
- Panel supplier might also need to change ( Ditto for magnetic panels )
- Chassis rails would increase in height to accommodate magnets
- Screw set would need to change ( Let say you're changing from 1.5mm alu to 0.8mm steel - the depth of the taper on the screw heads would be different )
- Additional design change for accessory screw sets
- MoQ would need to be met for news cases, screws sets, panels, magnets
- Existing inventory would need to be cleared
- Two production lines might need to be kept "open" to support both Alu and Steel case versions
- New inventory for new steel case line
- End costs would increase
The caveat is that I have NO manufacturing experience - just some project management. So actually the stuff above may not apply at all!
But it's common for these kinds of things to change simply from a material change where the flow on effects are pretty ugly.
On the other hand - maybe a switch to a larger screw set with a small increase to the frame size might mean better reliability. More simply even, changing from fillips which is designed to cam out to something like torx would be a benefit also if the screws are easy to source. This would probably address the common "issue" of stripping screws.
So the way w360 tells it, the company stopped returning our calls when they figured out that we weren't going to be a high volume customer for them. That's the sticking point with a lot of these companies - if you're not on board with tens/hundreds of thousands of units, they won't be interested. So I don't know how likely it is we'll find another company to do it, at least as long as the M1 is our only product that would use the process.Is the project as dead as our dreams or are you looking for a new company?
Yes you can countersink steel, but the qualifier I added - "flush fit" - is the difference. Admittedly I glossed over that detail for brevity, but essentially because the head of the screw is taller than the thickness of the sheet metal with steel, it will project from one side or the other, whereas with aluminum the head is completely "buried." That will likely create problems for certain parts of the existing design.So, coming back to this. Other than having to redo the dimensions to account for 0.8mm steel over 1.5mm aluminium, what else would you need to change? I spoke to an engineer I know about all this and he said it isn't true that you couldn't countersink a screw with a thinner material - you most definitely could with 0.8mm steel.
So the way w360 tells it, the company stopped returning our calls when they figured out that we weren't going to be a high volume customer for them. That's the sticking point with a lot of these companies - if you're not on board with tens/hundreds of thousands of units, they won't be interested. So I don't know how likely it is we'll find another company to do it, at least as long as the M1 is our only product that would use the process.
Yes you can countersink steel, but the qualifier I added - "flush fit" - is the difference. Admittedly I glossed over that detail for brevity, but essentially because the head of the screw is taller than the thickness of the sheet metal with steel, it will project from one side or the other, whereas with aluminum the head is completely "buried." That will likely create problems for certain parts of the existing design.
It's not something that couldn't be designed around, of course, but that brings me to the major reason I don't want to do it: it would almost certainly break parts compatibility between versions, and in essence it would be like creating a whole new case that needs its own complete set of replacement parts to keep track of. My position is, if we're going to all that trouble, it makes more sense to make an entirely new case that addresses some of the other issues the M1 has.
And FWIW, the plan as of right now for the ATX project I showed recently is to use a steel chassis.
We've talked a lot about using distributors in the past, but essentially we'd be giving up half our profit (or more), and w360 wants to maintain control over pricing. In general, the price to the customer likely wouldn't be any lower, though, so the benefit would be limited to quicker delivery + not having to deal with customs, and local support and service. We did work with a distributor in Japan as a test run, but ultimately w360 didn't feel it was worth it.Fair enough. I did see your ATX project but didn't comment on it since ATX no longer interests me - too big. No interest in water-cooling either so the case does nothing for me like the M1 did. It might be handy if I was building an x299 or TR system, but with Coffee Lake I don't need to worry about that.
As for the volume issue, a sidenote relating to that: I fully believe that w360 could get a lot more of the NCASE sold than he currently does. I don't get why you guys won't let vendors like OcUK stock them because it worked out amazingly for the A4 and all sold out within minutes and had people salivating (and pissed off that it would take months to get more in lol) for more. I think if you got the word out through vendors rather than people having to buy from you direct you could really push these volumes up compared to what you do now.
I'd love for this case to become semi-mainstream over extremely niche.
Is the project as dead as our dreams or are you looking for a new company?
So the way w360 tells it, the company stopped returning our calls when they figured out that we weren't going to be a high volume customer for them. That's the sticking point with a lot of these companies - if you're not on board with tens/hundreds of thousands of units, they won't be interested. So I don't know how likely it is we'll find another company to do it, at least as long as the M1 is our only product that would use the process.
+ a zillion on the sandblasted panels, those looked nice...
Necere
One thing I think would be a very cool addition would be a hinged connection for the side radiator mount (hinge to the front of the chassis)...
With this sort of set-up (I would add the FrozenQ external reservoir), one could remove the top & left side panels, swing open the radiator mount and access the system when needed...
Maybe include a little swing-down 'kickstand' to support the weight of the loaded radiator mount when open...?
EDIT: Swing radius & clearance of the radiator at the back of the frame when opening & closing would be an issue though...
There's no standard for riser mounting, so how do you imagine that could be done?You know what would be cool -- if the M1 had mounting holes for PCIe risers at the 2nd and 3rd PCIe slot. Then you could mount an expansion card under a 2-slot GPU. Or even do an insane SLI setup with single-slot cards in the 2nd and 3rd slot with bifucration from the main x16 slot. I don't know who would do any of those things, but it's just a few holes.
Realistically, I can see some people installing a network card in the 3rd slot with an M.2 to PCIe riser/adapter. Especially with the new ASRock X299 board that has 3 M.2 slots, that will be a way to utilize the additional PCIe lanes.
We've talked a lot about using distributors in the past, but essentially we'd be giving up half our profit (or more), and w360 wants to maintain control over pricing. In general, the price to the customer likely wouldn't be any lower, though, so the benefit would be limited to quicker delivery + not having to deal with customs, and local support and service. We did work with a distributor in Japan as a test run, but ultimately w360 didn't feel it was worth it.
The other issue with selling in the UK/EU specifically is that the certifications needed to market the product there are somewhat onerous, especially for a small outfit like us who aren't based there or speak the language. Dondan is in Germany, so for him it was only a stretch financially and time-wise to get those certifications for the A4.
Acrylic window similar to the Dan-A4
It's a combination of our low volume and increasing cost of anodizing due to more strict environmental protection laws in China + Taiwan.
Lian Li and the other anodizing suppliers have notified me that anodizing factories are being shut down all over China + Taiwan due to more strict laws and enforcement. So as supply decreases, you can expect price to increase in the future.
You should see prices going up for products with anodizing.
These are pretty reasonable suggestions, although most may not be feasible or desirable for various reasons:Necere
NCASE M1 v6
Black anodized inner chassis / frame...
Steel inserts for threaded fasteners...
Special Edition panels & color scheme - Gunmetal grey front & side panels, matte black top panel - all sandblasted 'MacBook Pro' finish
New 'block' feet with angled inner face which matches angle of sides of front I/O panel
USB-C connector on front I/O
More flexible USB front I/O cables
Users Manual / Build Guide
I see case feet and a GPU support arm. Where is the window? I searched and couldn't find it.
Support for the ATX bracket only requires four countersunk screw holes on the chassis rails, so dropping it doesn't achieve anything.Are there any improvements that could be made if you dropped support for ATX power supplies? I notice your new mATX/ATX design is SFX/SFX-L only (unless I missed something).
The easiest thing would just be no longer including the ATX bracket. But I think you would still want to have a solution for those people who want to move the PSU against the front to accommodate a slightly oversize motherboard. Perhaps allow the SFX PSU bracket to be mounted in two different positions? While perhaps still leaving room on the left side to mount something?
Interesting, what else can you say? It has been discussed before and wasn't really doable because...Making a window for the M1, the part will be launching under a new website called SFFLAB.
Does this come as part of a new revision (v6)?The case isn't designed for a window, and incorporating one breaks a lot of the functionality (plus there's no way to attach a glass window as is).
omg yes!Making a window for the M1, the part will be launching under a new website called SFFLAB.