Meet Julie Larson-Green, The New Head of Windows

Globox said:
the point, you're missing it
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I got the point, it's not the first time in the Great Windows 8 Debate that it has been made. Much of this debate does focus on the comparative usefulness of tablets versus desktops and everyday it seems more people are seeing tablets as viable replacements for desktops. I know that's not the case for all situations at this point, maybe not even for most, but whether one believes this or not doesn’t change the fact that tablets are growing in number, popularity and productive use while the desktop is static by comparison.
 
heatlesssun said:
I got the point, it's not the first time in the Great Windows 8 Debate that it has been made. Much of this debate does focus on the comparative usefulness of tablets versus desktops and everyday it seems more people are seeing tablets as viable replacements for desktops. I know that's not the case for all situations at this point, maybe not even for most, but whether one believes this or not doesn’t change the fact that tablets are growing in number, popularity and productive use while the desktop is static by comparison.
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I don't know why some people can't grasp that. It's simple:

Mobile devices are a growing market. Desktops are stagnating or declining in sales.

If businesses won't upgrade fast enough, don't need touch, and other reasons, that's fine. They can keep XP or 7, or go Linux. Microsoft can't bet its future on being a legacy software producer. It's better for them to go out and break the mold NOW - and I think they're late to the party - than to keep doing what they've always done and risk being forgotten somewhere in the future when no one wants to use Windows anymore, or doesn't even know how to operate it. It has to move somewhere. It's better to do something on that direction than nothing at all.

Windows 8 is far from perfect, but it's nice. The main improvement over Win7 is performance and functionality - the new copy/move screen is everything I wanted since... forever. Some things can be better, like the Photo app that sucks balls. But they'll get there eventually.

The fact is that they needed to move in that direction, and they needed to push something out of the door ASAP. I got the upgrade deal and couldn't been happier. It has many flaws, but seeing Microsoft as a company that needs to get with the times, it's a step into the right direction. Maybe not the best step, but a step nonetheless. They couldn't wait to make it perfect, good enough will have to do for now, and I hope it will. Not because I'm a fanboy or anything: I just like having many options, and I keep my mind open to all of them.
 
cdr_74_premium said:
The fact is that they needed to move in that direction, and they needed to push something out of the door ASAP. I got the upgrade deal and couldn't been happier. It has many flaws, but seeing Microsoft as a company that needs to get with the times, it's a step into the right direction. Maybe not the best step, but a step nonetheless. They couldn't wait to make it perfect, good enough will have to do for now, and I hope it will. Not because I'm a fanboy or anything: I just like having many options, and I keep my mind open to all of them.
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Yeah, at this point Microsoft didn't have a lot of options, leveraging the desktop to gain entry into tablets had to be part of the strategy to be successful. And a built-in to switch to turn of Metro would have been the one the biggest votes of no-confidence in a product by it's maker I call recall. "Hey went spent all these billions on this new UI that's great, but hey if you don't like it there's the off switch!" Maybe they would have drummed up a few more traditional PC sales but the Modern UI and interest in development would have been DOA without question. Who is going to develop for a platform that has a built-in off switch?
 
cdr_74_premium said:
I don't know why some people can't grasp that. It's simple:

Mobile devices are a growing market. Desktops are stagnating or declining in sales.

If businesses won't upgrade fast enough, don't need touch, and other reasons, that's fine. They can keep XP or 7, or go Linux. Microsoft can't bet its future on being a legacy software producer. It's better for them to go out and break the mold NOW - and I think they're late to the party - than to keep doing what they've always done and risk being forgotten somewhere in the future when no one wants to use Windows anymore, or doesn't even know how to operate it. It has to move somewhere. It's better to do something on that direction than nothing at all.

Windows 8 is far from perfect, but it's nice. The main improvement over Win7 is performance and functionality - the new copy/move screen is everything I wanted since... forever. Some things can be better, like the Photo app that sucks balls. But they'll get there eventually.

The fact is that they needed to move in that direction, and they needed to push something out of the door ASAP. I got the upgrade deal and couldn't been happier. It has many flaws, but seeing Microsoft as a company that needs to get with the times, it's a step into the right direction. Maybe not the best step, but a step nonetheless. They couldn't wait to make it perfect, good enough will have to do for now, and I hope it will. Not because I'm a fanboy or anything: I just like having many options, and I keep my mind open to all of them.
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heatlesssun said:
Yeah, at this point Microsoft didn't have a lot of options, leveraging the desktop to gain entry into tablets had to be part of the strategy to be successful. And a built-in to switch to turn of Metro would have been the one the biggest votes of no-confidence in a product by it's maker I call recall. "Hey went spent all these billions on this new UI that's great, but hey if you don't like it there's the off switch!" Maybe they would have drummed up a few more traditional PC sales but the Modern UI and interest in development would have been DOA without question. Who is going to develop for a platform that has a built-in off switch?
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1) That "Stagnant" market still accounts for multiple times more volume then Tablets are going to for years to come.
2) Businesses cannot stay on legacy software forever. At a certain point they must upgrade for security and to leverage the power of newer technology. However changes like this push out that transition date by using an interface that is so foreign that it forces far more change then typical in an already complex deployment. Apparently the two of you just don't have a clue how enterprise level deployments work given how casually you dismiss it by saying "Oh businesses can just stick to XP/7".
3) A Good UI design would be self perpetuating with or without a toggle. The statement that it would be a vote of no confidence makes you far more cynical then I have ever been. If anything the Forcing of the UI is the vote of no confidence because MS knows for a fact that people would just universally shut it off because it just flat out sucks on anything not touch. If they actually believed for a second it wasn't terrible they would have offered the option knowing people would have ended up largely leaving it on once they didn't feel threatened by it.

Change can be good or bad. Change that improves a product in a meaningful way is good change. Change for the sake of change is bad change. I have said it more times then I can count for months on end and now the reception of Win 8 is starting to validate everything I have said. Metro UI is change for the sake of change in a non touch environment and is detrimental to the average users experience. This is bar none the single worst design decision MS has ever made.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
1) That "Stagnant" market still accounts for multiple times more volume then Tablets are going to for years to come.
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Not necessarily. Tablets are expected to outsell desktops next year and by mid-decade probably even laptops. If Microsoft thought the desktop was safe from tablets it wouldn't have design Windows 8 the way it did.


Dekoth-E- said:
2) Businesses cannot stay on legacy software forever. At a certain point they must upgrade for security and to leverage the power of newer technology. However changes like this push out that transition date by using an interface that is so foreign that it forces far more change then typical in an already complex deployment. Apparently the two of you just don't have a clue how enterprise level deployments work given how casually you dismiss it by saying "Oh businesses can just stick to XP/7".
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I work in the biggest of the big corporate environments, we're rolling out 250,000 Windows 7 deployments over the next year and I'm responsible for certifying the suite of apps I lead, so I know very well how this works. Hell, we'd probably stay on XP if support wasn't ending and we'll still be on 7 probably until the end of decade. Yes, sticking to 7 is EXACTLY what a lot of businesses are going to do and would have no matter what 8 had turned out like.

Dekoth-E- said:
3) A Good UI design would be self perpetuating with or without a toggle. The statement that it would be a vote of no confidence makes you far more cynical then I have ever been. If anything the Forcing of the UI is the vote of no confidence because MS knows for a fact that people would just universally shut it off because it just flat out sucks on anything not touch. If they actually believed for a second it wasn't terrible they would have offered the option knowing people would have ended up largely leaving it on once they didn't feel threatened by it.
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No, Microsoft doesn't know this. They know the change is controversial but plenty of people are using it just fine with non-touch input, I do everyday like plenty around here and probably a few million people on planet Earth by now. There's nothing cynical about it. If anyone did a bunch of work on a project and then threw in the "never mind" switch of course that's a vote of no-confidence in one's own work.

Dekoth-E- said:
Change can be good or bad. Change that improves a product in a meaningful way is good change. Change for the sake of change is bad change. I have said it more times then I can count for months on end and now the reception of Win 8 is starting to validate everything I have said. Metro UI is change for the sake of change in a non touch environment and is detrimental to the average users experience. This is bar none the single worst design decision MS has ever made.
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The reception by whom? I've not seen any hard sales numbers other than Microsoft 4 million upgrade launch weekend number and a most of more interesting hardware, the tablets and hybrids haven't even gone on sale, even now there is only one Windows 8 tablet that I know of that's easy to get.

It's going to be a good six months before much can be said definitively as the OEMs get product out and prices start to tick down and the progress of the Windows Store can be truly measured.
 
Globox said:
the point, you're missing it
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On purpose so that he has a reason to argue and get attention. Then again, most people only talk at him to troll him into typing marathon posts to defend his personal obsession that he's busy trying to force upon everyone else.
 
SkribbelKat said:
On purpose so that he has a reason to argue and get attention. Then again, most people only talk at him to troll him into typing marathon posts to defend his personal obsession that he's busy trying to force upon everyone else.
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The only one looking for attention is you, I already posted a direct response to this before you made up your lie.
 
If she is the one responsible for Metro then I'd really wouldn't want to see what the inside of her house looks like...
 
Dekoth-E- said:
1) That "Stagnant" market still accounts for multiple times more volume then Tablets are going to for years to come.
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Well, Win7 is still around. Also, most people don't have the means or will to get rid of Microsoft stuff because of old programs.

Dekoth-E- said:
2) Businesses cannot stay on legacy software forever. At a certain point they must upgrade for security and to leverage the power of newer technology. However changes like this push out that transition date by using an interface that is so foreign that it forces far more change then typical in an already complex deployment. Apparently the two of you just don't have a clue how enterprise level deployments work given how casually you dismiss it by saying "Oh businesses can just stick to XP/7".
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Weird. They don't want to upgrade, they keep stuff that is waaaay past their prime around because of the costs associated with upgrading, but suddenly with Win8 everyone wants to do it right now, but damn, Win8 sucks so they won't. Right?

Dekoth-E- said:
3) A Good UI design would be self perpetuating with or without a toggle. The statement that it would be a vote of no confidence makes you far more cynical then I have ever been. If anything the Forcing of the UI is the vote of no confidence because MS knows for a fact that people would just universally shut it off because it just flat out sucks on anything not touch. If they actually believed for a second it wasn't terrible they would have offered the option knowing people would have ended up largely leaving it on once they didn't feel threatened by it.
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Well, I'll give you that. I agree it should be optional - every UI change past that was, and most people got used to the changes sooner or later. And if they did not, well, just keep the old look. That was handy when I had to upgrade computers of old people: only a few wanted to try the new interface right off the bat. Most wanted things like they were before, and only after some time they felt comfortable trying the new features.

Dekoth-E- said:
Change can be good or bad. Change that improves a product in a meaningful way is good change. Change for the sake of change is bad change. I have said it more times then I can count for months on end and now the reception of Win 8 is starting to validate everything I have said. Metro UI is change for the sake of change in a non touch environment and is detrimental to the average users experience. This is bar none the single worst design decision MS has ever made.
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You can argue the changes are bad. The new photo app for example is so bad I wonder who let that in the final product.

...but they are not "changes for the sake of change".

There's no way out of constant innovation. People even forgive some setbacks, but they want to be associated with things that are moving forward. No one wants to say they LOVE Windows or Microsoft products right now: it's for old people. Apple stuff is what's trendy, so much that people are willing to pay 3x the price for less hardware power to have that damn fruit glowing on the back of their notebooks. That has to change if Microsoft want to survive in the long term.

BTW, Vista did have the start button and people still have to say "I'm sorry" when they talk about it. Goes to show how much hate it got. My friends still freak out when I say Vista was OK after good drivers arrived, and Win7 is really nothing more than Vista 2.0 Turbo - or Vista Overclocked, Vista DoneRight, whatever.

Hey, maybe Win9 will make Win8 shine and suddenly Metro is the new rage.
 
heatlesssun said:
The only one looking for attention is you, I already posted a direct response to this before you made up your lie.
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So, you're not attention seeking by posting with single-minded dedication in an attempt to impose your idea of the world on people who don't care? Then why again are you here if not for that and because you care about or are upset by the responses of others?
 
SkribbelKat said:
So, you're not attention seeking by posting with single-minded dedication in an attempt to impose your idea of the world on people who don't care? Then why again are you here if not for that and because you care about or are upset by the responses of others?
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I've given up trying to understand. Even looking at some crazy religious zealots it's sometimes hard to say they are as zealous as he is about an OS and tablets.
 
Tudz said:
I've given up trying to understand. Even looking at some crazy religious zealots it's sometimes hard to say they are as zealous as he is about an OS and tablets.
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agreed, then again there always is a new breed of fanboy/zealot on the interwebs.

this thread sure boarders on obvious trolling. but there's nothing cats and the block list won't fix.
obvious-troll.jpg
 
heatlesssun said:
Not necessarily. Tablets are expected to outsell desktops next year and by mid-decade probably even laptops. If Microsoft thought the desktop was safe from tablets it wouldn't have design Windows 8 the way it did.




I work in the biggest of the big corporate environments, we're rolling out 250,000 Windows 7 deployments over the next year and I'm responsible for certifying the suite of apps I lead, so I know very well how this works. Hell, we'd probably stay on XP if support wasn't ending and we'll still be on 7 probably until the end of decade. Yes, sticking to 7 is EXACTLY what a lot of businesses are going to do and would have no matter what 8 had turned out like.



No, Microsoft doesn't know this. They know the change is controversial but plenty of people are using it just fine with non-touch input, I do everyday like plenty around here and probably a few million people on planet Earth by now. There's nothing cynical about it. If anyone did a bunch of work on a project and then threw in the "never mind" switch of course that's a vote of no-confidence in one's own work.



The reception by whom? I've not seen any hard sales numbers other than Microsoft 4 million upgrade launch weekend number and a most of more interesting hardware, the tablets and hybrids haven't even gone on sale, even now there is only one Windows 8 tablet that I know of that's easy to get.

It's going to be a good six months before much can be said definitively as the OEMs get product out and prices start to tick down and the progress of the Windows Store can be truly measured.
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cdr_74_premium said:
Well, Win7 is still around. Also, most people don't have the means or will to get rid of Microsoft stuff because of old programs.



Weird. They don't want to upgrade, they keep stuff that is waaaay past their prime around because of the costs associated with upgrading, but suddenly with Win8 everyone wants to do it right now, but damn, Win8 sucks so they won't. Right?



Well, I'll give you that. I agree it should be optional - every UI change past that was, and most people got used to the changes sooner or later. And if they did not, well, just keep the old look. That was handy when I had to upgrade computers of old people: only a few wanted to try the new interface right off the bat. Most wanted things like they were before, and only after some time they felt comfortable trying the new features.



You can argue the changes are bad. The new photo app for example is so bad I wonder who let that in the final product.

...but they are not "changes for the sake of change".

There's no way out of constant innovation. People even forgive some setbacks, but they want to be associated with things that are moving forward. No one wants to say they LOVE Windows or Microsoft products right now: it's for old people. Apple stuff is what's trendy, so much that people are willing to pay 3x the price for less hardware power to have that damn fruit glowing on the back of their notebooks. That has to change if Microsoft want to survive in the long term.

BTW, Vista did have the start button and people still have to say "I'm sorry" when they talk about it. Goes to show how much hate it got. My friends still freak out when I say Vista was OK after good drivers arrived, and Win7 is really nothing more than Vista 2.0 Turbo - or Vista Overclocked, Vista DoneRight, whatever.

Hey, maybe Win9 will make Win8 shine and suddenly Metro is the new rage.
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You both either completely missed my one point or chose to ignore it, i'm not sure which.

Concerning businesses staying on 7. I am well aware that businesses aren't going to be jumping on win 8, this isn't a newsflash or some loophole in my argument. I am speaking of the trend win 8 potentially sets. If the business world isn't openly hostile to metro ui now, then MS is going to be inclined to keep it in the coming years. Win 9 will have it, then win 10..etc etc. After the typical decade when businesses start having to switch over, they suddenly are faced with no options and are forced to redesign effectively everything. So no, we can't just sit on win 7 and sit happily in the corner. If we don't want windows 8 setting the standard going forward we have to be vocal about it now and force microsoft to understand how deeply dissatisfied we are with the UI and the complete lack of choice.

Once again, there is zero excuse for ms not offering a UI experience choice as they have always done. It doesn't show as a vote of no confidence to offer consumers choice. A vote of no confidence is forcing them on the new system and then selling your product for a fraction of what it has always traditionally sold for. You can deny it all you want, but those two factors together prove beyond any reasonable doubt that MS knew that Metro was going to simply be rejected.

What happened to the team that designed Win 7? For the first time in years that company was starting to make serious strides in UI development and general OS performance. Vista started it, but fell short in a few areas then just fell victim to terrible press. Then suddenly Win 8 comes out and it looks like they hired a bunch of rejects from the late 90's, gave them a large dose of acid and put whatever they came up with into the new OS no questions asked.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
You both either completely missed my one point or chose to ignore it, i'm not sure which.
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I don't think we missed or ignored your point. We were just saying that the market is changing. Windows 8 wasn't a capricious change, the changes were made to address the negative impact of tablets on the traditional Windows PC sales that both the market and analysts seem to be indicating at this time.

Dekoth-E- said:
Concerning businesses staying on 7. I am well aware that businesses aren't going to be jumping on win 8, this isn't a newsflash or some loophole in my argument. I am speaking of the trend win 8 potentially sets. If the business world isn't openly hostile to metro ui now, then MS is going to be inclined to keep it in the coming years. Win 9 will have it, then win 10..etc etc. After the typical decade when businesses start having to switch over, they suddenly are faced with no options and are forced to redesign effectively everything. So no, we can't just sit on win 7 and sit happily in the corner. If we don't want windows 8 setting the standard going forward we have to be vocal about it now and force microsoft to understand how deeply dissatisfied we are with the UI and the complete lack of choice.
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The question at the heart and soul of the Great Windows 8 Debate is what will be the nature of mainstream computing hardware in ten years. I understand that you believe in the desktop is it's own unique paradigm separate from tablets but that just doesn’t seem to the world that we live in today. I’m not saying the desktop is just going to go away but to think that the desktop will be king of the hill even in business in ten years is anybody’s’ guess at this point. And with more and more bring your own devices coming into the enterprise there’s a lot of guessing as to even how much businesses will be buying their own devices as companies look to trim ever more costs. Not saying that’s an option for all businesses, certainly not something banks for instance are keen on, but BYOD is happening.

It just seems like you and many Windows 8 opponents want Microsoft to keep building an OS that’s not lining up with the market forces, at least from the information I’m seeing.

Dekoth-E- said:
Once again, there is zero excuse for ms not offering a UI experience choice as they have always done. It doesn't show as a vote of no confidence to offer consumers choice. A vote of no confidence is forcing them on the new system and then selling your product for a fraction of what it has always traditionally sold for. You can deny it all you want, but those two factors together prove beyond any reasonable doubt that MS knew that Metro was going to simply be rejected.
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I just can’t see how one has confidence in something by building in an off switch for it. That’s the ultimate anticipation problems in the world of software. As for the upgrade price, being confident doesn’t mean being stupid about reality either. Windows 8 upgrades are cheaper than historically but many people have complained about upgrade pricing in the past so with all of the flack over Windows 8 having one less point of contention isn’t a bad thing. And it’s not exactly a fraction. There were no free upgrades to Windows 8 like Windows 7 I believe and upgrades aren’t a large chunk of Windows revenue, that’s still tied to new hardware.

Dekoth-E- said:
What happened to the team that designed Win 7? For the first time in years that company was starting to make serious strides in UI development and general OS performance. Vista started it, but fell short in a few areas then just fell victim to terrible press. Then suddenly Win 8 comes out and it looks like they hired a bunch of rejects from the late 90's, gave them a large dose of acid and put whatever they came up with into the new OS no questions asked.
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Well the guy that lead Windows 8 lead development did so for Windows 7 and he’s gone now. Maybe Windows 8 did him in but I do imagine that it’s something of a logical impasse for Windows 8 haters who think Windows 7 is great to know that same person lead both development efforts.
 
heatlesssun said:
I do imagine that it’s something of a logical impasse for Windows 8 haters who think Windows 7 is great to know that same person lead both development efforts.
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No not really. People who make something good often turn around and make something shit the very next attempt, the world is full of such examples.
 
Tudz said:
Yep, people don't like change for the sake of change. They don't like change which they perceive as negative even more.
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I think a lot of people just don't like the inconsistent dual UI shit fest MS released as a new OS. Slapping two completely different UI paradigms onto the same OS and expecting good results was foolish. If Metro was the UI on top of a Linux distro and had the same problems, it would get absolutely torched.
 
Tudz said:
No not really. People who make something good often turn around and make something shit the very next attempt, the world is full of such examples.
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True, but my point was about how a same person created the likes of Windows 7 that many Windows 8 haters seem to love. It's a very stark contrast beyond just a bad release for some. And many have had their explanations such as locking and tying all Windows software to the Windows Store for instance. Rarely though do Windows 8 opponents accept the decline of the desktop as the reason for Windows 8.
 
Tudz said:
Yep, people don't like change for the sake of change. They don't like change which they perceive as negative even more.
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Of all the things said about why Windows 8 is the way it is, this one of the least logical because the nature of the computing market underwent radical change with the release of the iPad and other tablets that most people looking at the market have said unequivocally have hurt the traditional PC market.
 
ocellaris said:
I think a lot of people just don't like the inconsistent dual UI shit fest MS released as a new OS. Slapping two completely different UI paradigms onto the same OS and expecting good results was foolish. If Metro was the UI on top of a Linux distro and had the same problems, it would get absolutely torched.
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That would be the change that people percieve as negative ;) :D
 
Advertising for Windows 8 looks like it's started again during my sammich making and cat feedings.
 
John Vuong said:
Great, this possibly means that all future Windows versions will most likely look like shit I suppose.
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If what you call shit sells well then yes and I think that's the nexus of what is bothering a lot of Windows 8 opponents. Not that it won't do well but that it will. If it doesn't do well then I could see a return to the old UI and more appeasement of that crowd.
 
heatlesssun said:
Of all the things said about why Windows 8 is the way it is, this one of the least logical because the nature of the computing market underwent radical change with the release of the iPad and other tablets that most people looking at the market have said unequivocally have hurt the traditional PC market.
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You can't consider Tablet a computing trend because tablet lack computing power they are glorified consumption devices. So the logic we need a hybrid UI is flawed because Tablets/Smartphones are not capable of actual content creation. Tablets are like fancy moving picture Magazines.

If MS is trying to appeal the Hybrid UI where consumption is put in forefront there will be a general negative feedback on the Desktop since people on this platform are content/productivity creators in majority of usage.

MS is using the same tactic retail stores use to make people buy shit. In a productivity scenerio people just want to do their job and go and do something else. This is where Metro fails miserably,
You have the store now
Bad version of a web browser
Live tiles that are distracting
apps filled with ads.

So now people are forced to tread through forest of bullshit before they can start their application and do their own work.

You might say oh just click on the desktop icon and do you work.

Well take it from a perspective Login - Get visually assaulted with gaudy useless shit and possible distractions - to finding my program in possibly two places and starting my task.
This is even compounded more in the corporate environment.

I like the comparison of MSN search vs Google. Why do people like google because its simple. Why did Digg fail miserably because they fucked with a tried and true layout. Why is reddit popular because they haven't fucked with their layout.

I don't like Metro because I feel visually assaulted with its hideous layout and themes.

Computers have been evolving and only seldom do you see a revolution.
The desktop wasn't broken and MS decided to fix something that wasn't broken.
MS has missed the whole boat once more its not about a useless Hybrid UI its about content delivery system, cloud services.

Again MS has boarded the failboat on its way to failtown.
 
Wrench00 said:
The desktop wasn't broken and MS decided to fix something that wasn't broken.
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I don't know what you're describing but it isn't Windows 8 in my experience across desktops, laptops and tablets. If what you're saying is true seriously, no one would use it.

And if you have information that contradicts what most market analysts are saying about how tablets are having significant on the sales of traditional PCs you should present that information to Microsoft. People are clearly telling them that something is wrong with the PC and it's hard not to believe them when PC sales growth is probably going to be negative this year for the first time in over a decade.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Yes, she does. It's not like they picked some gal up from the mail room. She was on the team and really helped out. She is very well qualified. I'm definitely looking forward to see what she comes up with.
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Hopefully not Bob. Lol!
 
Most of the people who bitch about metro either refuse to learn how to use it, or work as techs in a company that won't change for a long fucking time.

For consumers, windows 8 is a good thing, learning it is a good thing. Getting all pissy about change and calling it bad is just butthurt folks being butthurt about dumb shit.

The debate is stupid. Most of the folks who complain spent zero time trying to learn it, installed start8 or something similar and are still complaining.

Meh. This is where the market is heading, stop crying.
 
stealthy123 said:
Most of the people who bitch about metro either refuse to learn how to use it, or work as techs in a company that won't change for a long fucking time.

For consumers, windows 8 is a good thing, learning it is a good thing. Getting all pissy about change and calling it bad is just butthurt folks being butthurt about dumb shit.

The debate is stupid. Most of the folks who complain spent zero time trying to learn it, installed start8 or something similar and are still complaining.

Meh. This is where the market is heading, stop crying.
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Now, you sound like a Microsoft employee doing his/her undercover work on the forum. Your condescending attitude does nothing to bolster your argument.

There is no bitching from my perspective. If a 3rd party company can sell a significant volume of software (Start8) in order to address a perceived problem with a new OS, then THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE NEW OS.

There was absolutely no need for Microsoft to go the route they did with the interface. Everyone could have been happy here. Old users (I will cop to that charge) could still have their happy interface they spent the last 18+ years using, and the NKOTB could have their colorful tiles. I don't judge one interface above another, vive le difference. My only criticism is Microsoft removed functionality from WIN8 for some reason that still eludes me.

stealthy123 said:
The debate is stupid.
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No truer words. Microsoft screwed the pooch.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
You both either completely missed my one point or chose to ignore it, i'm not sure which.
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Seems to me you didn't read what I said.

Dekoth-E- said:
So no, we can't just sit on win 7 and sit happily in the corner. If we don't want windows 8 setting the standard going forward we have to be vocal about it now and force microsoft to understand how deeply dissatisfied we are with the UI and the complete lack of choice.

Once again, there is zero excuse for ms not offering a UI experience choice as they have always done. It doesn't show as a vote of no confidence to offer consumers choice. A vote of no confidence is forcing them on the new system and then selling your product for a fraction of what it has always traditionally sold for. You can deny it all you want, but those two factors together prove beyond any reasonable doubt that MS knew that Metro was going to simply be rejected.
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Like I said before, I agree with you on that. There's always been a choice on UI changes, I don't get why they decided to take it away.

The fact that you could choose was a life-saver when I upgraded old people's computer. Except for my grandfather, who wants to learn all the changes even if that means he'll bang his head against a wall for some weeks in the process.

Dekoth-E- said:
What happened to the team that designed Win 7? For the first time in years that company was starting to make serious strides in UI development and general OS performance. Vista started it, but fell short in a few areas then just fell victim to terrible press. Then suddenly Win 8 comes out and it looks like they hired a bunch of rejects from the late 90's, gave them a large dose of acid and put whatever they came up with into the new OS no questions asked.
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LOL. The way standard metro apps open is a flashback for sure. But Win8 was made by essentially the same team that made 7.

I don't agree with all the design decisions they've made, and again, I do agree they should at least give you choice like they always did.

But it's not the FUBAR product many says it is. It needs some polishing, but it has great qualities that many aren't seeing because they can't sit down and use it for a while before getting worked up because the start button is gone. I know I bought it for my notebook and, after getting it installed, put it down for a week before having the patience to sit down and try to give it a honest chance. After I did that I was impressed with the improvements, recognizing the things they should work on. Some apps are nice, like the Weather one. Unfortunately the photo app sucks balls, and I'm glad the old photo viewer is there.

As I'm typing this on my Win7 box, I noticed that I almost don't use the damn start button in Win7, if at all. It's keyboard shortcuts and the programs pinned on the task bar. When I want something else, I press the Windows button and type the name of the program I want to open. I can do the same with Win8 and make use of the performance improvements.

All in all, Microsoft needs to move forward. I don't agree with all the decisions they've made, but I know why they're doing this. Everyone wants Apple stuff precisely because they can't mess it up. With Windows, people have the power to choose, but instead they use that power to mess things up and blame Microsoft for their undoings. "Apple don't get viruses, it's Microsoft's fault!". Now that's affecting their bottom line, and it's not surprising they're trying to change, making people unable to screw things up even if that means less choices.
 
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