Many full copper radiators aren't full copper- Igor's Lab

hititnquitit said:
Have you run AF in a loop before? I get the distinct impression you haven't.
Click to expand...

No I have not.

When I considered it I sat down and read about it for several hours and concluded it was a bad idea, and I trust that reading WAY more than I do anyone's anecdotal experiences on a forum.

I can't remember my exact sources (it has been a while now) but I think I started with the Overclockers.com water loop chemistry guides parts 1 & 2 and then further read up on all the additive chemicals meantioned there, including manufacturers application guides, and various chemical engineering articles I could find.

https://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-i/

https://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-ii/

I got pretty into the weeds on the subject matter, and I am very comfortable with my conclusions, which were along the lines of "automotive antifreeze is suboptimal at best from a viscosity and thermal transfer perspective, and may provide inadequate corrosion protection depending on the brand of the anti-freeze, it's concentration, and the design particulars of the loop and water components."

I'm well aware that lots of people have used it - especially back in the day - and claim to have had great results, but I also keep hearing people complaining of corrosion, and when they do it's never "damn, maybe I used an improper coolant". Instead it's always "point the finger at the manufacturer of the block".
 
Last edited:
Zarathustra[H] said:
No I have not.

When I considered it I sat down and read about it for several hours and concluded it was a bad idea, and I trust that reading WAY more than I do anyone's anecdotal experiences on a forum.

I can't remember my exact sources (it has been a while now) but I think I started with the Overclockers.com water loop chemistry guides parts 1 & 2 and then further read up on all the additive chemicals meantioned there, including manufacturers application guides, and various chemical engineering articles I could find.

https://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-i/

https://www.overclockers.com/pc-water-coolant-chemistry-part-ii/

I got pretty into the weeds on the subject matter, and I am very comfortable with my conclusions, which were along the lines of "automotive antifreeze is suboptimal at best from a viscosity and thermal transfer perspective, and may provide inadequate corrosion protection depending on the brand of the anti-freeze, it's concentration, and the design particulars of the loop and water components."

I'm well aware that lots of people have used it - especially back in the day - and claim to have had great results, but I also keep hearing people complaining of corrosion, and when they do it's never "damn, maybe I used an improper coolant". Instead it's always "point the finger at the manufacturer of the block".
Click to expand...
I'm familiar with all of OCFs wcing guides, been a member since forever. 20 years ago that info was already sliding off the edge. Now? To say it's outdated is being kind. I'll leave it at that so as not to disparage the author any further.

You would be surprised how many people use AF. And how many never stopped using it. There's a reason Swiftech sells/sold bottles of Zerex on their website with directions as to how to mix and use it with their gear ;)

Corrosion caused by AF or any coolant for that matter is a stretch when talking about plated blocks. Reason being, you would have to run it for 4 or 5 years with a half dead pump (on uber hot components) that barely moved the coolant to cause any kind of block damage and even then, that's only if the block is poorly plated. The only other variable would be if the coolant is seriously screwed up out of the bottle. Physically damaging a nickel block with proper coolant? Nah. Damaging a copper block with distilled or a distilled mix is simply a matter of neglect and time.

But hey you do you. I'm in no way trying to persuade you to use AF in your loop. Simply dispelling fud.
 
NightReaver said:
Last time I checked, lead doesn't just magically form dust...at least not in any significant amount, unless you mess with it.

People would be shocked to learn how much asbestos is still in public buildings because if you leave it alone....
Click to expand...

It forms scientifically. Not magically.
 
German Muscle said:
look up the stealth fan fiasco from igors lab
Click to expand...
Yea I read all about that and watched one of their employees make a clown out of himself on YouTube also lol

I still love Alphacool radiators and have had many of them and love them all. I especially like the different size options from width to slim to odd sized rads. Highly recommend their full copper rads they are excellent and priced very competitively.
 
xDiVolatilX said:
Yea I read all about that and watched one of their employees make a clown out of himself on YouTube also lol

I still love Alphacool radiators and have had many of them and love them all. I especially like the different size options from width to slim to odd sized rads. Highly recommend their full copper rads they are excellent and priced very competitively.
Click to expand...
i love alphacool, they are great for the most part, its just the bias coming from igor is bad.
 
German Muscle said:
i love alphacool, they are great for the most part, its just the bias coming from igor is bad.
Click to expand...

I think they were trying to do the right thing, but after this long in the industry, at some point in their testing their sixth sense should have gone off along the lines of "this looks too good to be true, and when something looks too good to be true, it usually is" and gone back and taken another look at their test setup, etc, instead of just hitting that big red "publish" button.
 
1. i am more concerned with false advertising than Pb poisoning.
2. Dissimilar metals are a no no.
3. Be careful with antifreeze in your loop, I was a head Research Chemist for a govt fuel cell contract and they plumbed a lab scale industrial cooling system with the wrong PVC materials. Glycols will find any leak or half ass connection you make and leak, not advised.
Case
Allstate Insurance v. Sibley et al, Eagle Cty CO Dist Ct 96CV219
Attorney
James Puga, formerly of Godfrey Associates, Denver, CO, 80231, now with Leventhal & Brown, PC, 950 S. Cherry St. Denver CO 80246, tel 303-759-9945, fax 303-759-9692
Representing
Defendant pipe manufacturer
Testimony
Report - Analysis confirmed that CPVC pipe in a fire sprinkler system had been filled with propylene glycol/water antifreeze solution, contrary to pipe manufacturer's instructions. Pipe failure and water damage was caused by environmental stress cracking due to the glycol.
Outcome
Pipe manufacturer was absolved.
4. Corrosion mechanism is complex here is my research on Copper corrosion.
 

Attachments

  • TMS 2009 Cu Paper.pdf
    579.5 KB · Views: 0
Why I am not concerned with Pb contamination. I characterized a brass Swagelok compression fitting that was factory cleaned by ultrasound and solvent wash.
Traces of leaded cutting lubricant is still present on fitting. The ratio of leaded area to bulk brass is very small. It is impossible to remove all contaminants good and bad.
 

Attachments

  • Bulk sample of brass fititng.jpg
    Bulk sample of brass fititng.jpg
    92.3 KB · Views: 0
  • Pb contamination of fitting.jpg
    Pb contamination of fitting.jpg
    90 KB · Views: 0
Everyone should already know that soldering is part of the radiator manufacturing process, so feels like nothing new here. Also copper radiators have also always had brass in them.

What is the revelation here?

Also all your compression fittings and barbs? Brass.
 
Scientifically the impurities are too low to worry about. Pure copper or some alloy it will eventually oxidize.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top