Many full copper radiators aren't full copper- Igor's Lab

Tsumi said:
Apparently Igor's lab did a material analysis of a few radiators
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Are we trusting Igor's Lab again now after that fan fiasco?

Tsumi said:
and found that many of them advertised as full copper actually had brass channels.
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Not the end of the world. The Anodic index is still close enough to copper to not cause notable galvanic corrosion.

Tsumi said:
The most glaring violation IMO were Bykski using leaded solder in addition to brass channels.
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Unsurprising. Lying about material content and cutting corners seems to be standard practice among Chinese manufacturers, which is why I have avoided the likes of Bykski thus far.


 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Are we trusting Igor's Lab again now after that fan fiasco?



Not the end of the world. The Anodic index is still close enough to copper to not cause notable galvanic corrosion.



Unsurprising. Lying about material content and cutting corners seems to be standard practice among Chinese manufacturers, which is why I have avoided the likes of Bykski thus far.
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Mostly stayed out of that fan fiasco, and I don't see them gaining much from this. Unless they were getting backroom kickbacks from some radiator manufacturers to investigate others.

Brass isn't the issue as basically every fitting is brass (sometimes nickel plated). It's the false advertisement, though I suppose in the end true performance is all that matters.
 
Tsumi said:
Mostly stayed out of that fan fiasco, and I don't see them gaining much from this. Unless they were getting backroom kickbacks from some radiator manufacturers to investigate others.
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I will say that alphacool is favored in this article............

Igor has lost all credibility.
 
pendragon1 said:
lol this isnt news. brass has been used in copper rads for, like, ever....
ps: your pc doesnt care about lead.
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In order to avoid galvanic corrosion, for harsh, wet or salty environments you want to keep the ΔV to 0.15V or lower.

1709669177285.png


Copper is -0.35V, as are some brasses. Most brasses are -0.40V, and some high brassses are -0.45V. All of them - notably - are within 0.15V of each other.

Lead - however - is -0.70v, 0.35V away from copper, so you probably don't want much of that in your fluid pathway or galvanic corrosion might become a problem. Since the lead is the most anodic, it would corrode over time depositing lead-oxide gunk on the copper in the loop. That said, lead-free solders are generally tin-based and tin isn't much better at 0.65v.

I don't have much familiarity with how radiators are soldered, but if it is anything like copper plumbing, you aren't exactly getting much (if any) on the inside of the pipes, so it is probably good. I'm guessing that for PC radiators the copper pipes are just bent copper tubes, and the soldering happens on the outside attaching the fins, in which case you have no solder in the fluid pathway.

For human health - however - you might want to minimize your interaction with lead. Especially if there are young children around. It can significantly reduce intelligence in children. If there is lead dust on the radiator, and you are blowing fans through it and spreading it throughout your environment and breathing it, this is sub optimal. It might not seem like much, but there are plenty of studies when it comes to people who go to shooting ranges, and afterwards go home carrying enough lead dust on their person to be harmful to their kids. I read a story about an FBI agent who after every visit to the shooting range to stay current on his firearm would get undressed in the garage, put his clothes right in the laundry and take a shower before entering the house and greeting his family.

So apparently it does not take much lead to be harmful (which is why we have such things as ROHS.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
In order to avoid galvanic corrosion, for harsh, wet or salty environments you want to keep the ΔV to 0.15V or lower.

View attachment 639678

Copper is -0.35V, as are some brasses. Most brasses are -0.40V, and some high brassses are -0.45V. All of them - notably - are within 0.15V of each other.

Lead - however - is -0.70v, 0.35V away from copper, so you probably don't want much of that in your fluid pathway or galvanic corrosion might become a problem. Since the lead is the most anodic, it would corrode over time depositing lead-oxide gunk on the copper in the loop. That said, lead-free solders are generally tin-based and tin isn't much better at 0.65v.

I don't have much familiarity with how radiators are soldered, but if it is anything like copper plumbing, you aren't exactly getting much (if any) on the inside of the pipes, so it is probably good. I'm guessing that for PC radiators the copper pipes are just bent copper tubes, and the soldering happens on the outside attaching the fins, in which case you have no solder in the fluid pathway.

For human health - however - you might want to minimize your interaction with lead. Especially if there are young children around. It can significantly reduce intelligence in children. If there is lead dust on the radiator, and you are blowing fans through it and spreading it throughout your environment and breathing it, this is sub optimal. It might not seem like much, but there are plenty of studies when it comes to people who go to shooting ranges, and afterwards go home carrying enough lead dust on their person to be harmful to their kids. I read a story about an FBI agent who after every visit to the shooting range to stay current on his firearm would get undressed in the garage, put his clothes right in the laundry and take a shower before entering the house and greeting his family.

So apparently it does not take much lead to be harmful (which is why we have such things as ROHS.
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and if your using proper coolant none of that is an issue.
dont lick your rad?!
fuck rohs. that bullshit has caused so many people problem over the last 20 years...
 
pendragon1 said:
and if your using proper coolant none of that is an issue.
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You definitely want coolant with corrosion inhibitors, but you don't want to rely on them too much. They are really just a bandaid. The best way to deal with galvanic corrosion is to eliminate the root cause as much as possible, namely the dissimilar metals.

pendragon1 said:
dont lick your rad?!
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Again, lead tentds to form dust, and with fans you are blowing it around the air you breathe. Not a good idea.

pendragon1 said:
fuck rohs. that bullshit has caused so many people problem over the last 20 years...
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Indeed. ROHS has been a huge pain in the ass causing redesigns of boards, mad hunts for lead free components that may or may not exist, etc. etc. Not to mention the issues with tin whiskers that needed to be resolved. It was not easy, for sure, but now we are through it and on the other side.

That said, it was important work. Eliminating lead as much as possible is huge. Large scale studies have shown that as many as half of all Americans that lived in the last century suffered significant and notable IQ loss due to exposure to lead, most of it from leaded fuels, but also paints, cookware, and other sources.

When we learn that things are very harmful to health we rightly should eliminate them as much as possible, even if it is a pain in the ass.

Besides, electrical engineers shouldn't complain too much. It gave them a lot of extra work and pay raises they otherwise might not have had :p
 
Are we really going to get worried about a bit of lead in a PC water loop being a health concern?

Oh God lol.
 
NightReaver said:
Are we really going to get worried about a bit of lead in a PC water loop being a health concern?

Oh God lol.
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right?! like the yahoos reeeeeeeing about the lead plug on the stanely mugs. are you licking the bottom for some reason!?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
You definitely want coolant with corrosion inhibitors, but you don't want to rely on them too much. They are really just a bandaid. The best way to deal with galvanic corrosion is to eliminate the root cause as much as possible, namely the dissimilar metals.



Again, lead tentds to form dust, and with fans you are blowing it around the air you breathe. Not a good idea.



Indeed. ROHS has been a huge pain in the ass causing redesigns of boards, mad hunts for lead free components that may or may not exist, etc. etc. Not to mention the issues with tin whiskers that needed to be resolved. It was not easy, for sure, but now we are through it and on the other side.

That said, it was important work. Eliminating lead as much as possible is huge. Large scale studies have shown that as many as half of all Americans that lived in the last century suffered significant and notable IQ loss due to exposure to lead, most of it from leaded fuels, but also paints, cookware, and other sources.

When we learn that things are very harmful to health we rightly should eliminate them as much as possible, even if it is a pain in the ass.

Besides, electrical engineers shouldn't complain too much. It gave them a lot of extra work and pay raises they otherwise might not have had :p
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all of that is a real stretch....
we know, thats why i stopped eating paint ships as a kid... ;)
 
pendragon1 said:
all of that is a real stretch....
we know, thats why i stopped eating paint ships as a kid... ;)
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Last time I checked, lead doesn't just magically form dust...at least not in any significant amount, unless you mess with it.

People would be shocked to learn how much asbestos is still in public buildings because if you leave it alone....
 
But aren't brass and copper inert with each other? The point of "all copper" radiators is to not introduce aluminum into the loop.
 
NightReaver said:
Last time I checked, lead doesn't just magically form dust...at least not in any significant amount, unless you mess with it.

People would be shocked to learn how much asbestos is still in public buildings because if you leave it alone....
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yup and yup.

Axman said:
But aren't brass and copper inert with each other? The point of "all copper" radiators is to not introduce aluminum into the loop.
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yup and yup
 
pendragon1 said:
mixed metal is used with proper coolant all the friggin time.
how is lead solder in a rad going to magically become airborne dust?!
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The amount of lead is even low plus its mixed with tin. Lead in solder was only an actual issue when electronic waste was incinerated.
 
pendragon1 said:
mixed metal is used with proper coolant all the friggin time.
how is lead solder in a rad going to magically become airborne dust?!
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I was more talking about the galvanic corrosion and loops staying within the delta to keep that in control.
 
That's the difference between looking at values on a piece of paper, and what actually occurs irl due to various factors.

Usually happens when you try to over apply booksmarts.
 
pendragon1 said:
mixed metal is used with proper coolant all the friggin time.
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Where? IN industrial coolant loops and in cars? Those two are sadly not very comparable to the coolant loop of a PC, where the micro-channels are very small, and sensitive to event he slightest amount of corrosion, especially if nickel plated and the nickel plating starts chipping away.

Can you get away with it for a while? Sure. Just like how some people get away with driving 50k miles without an oil change.

Is it a good idea for the long term health of your loop? Absolutely not.
 
German Muscle said:
so what coolant is widely available mainstream that works with aluminum, copper, and brass?
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prettty much all of them or even tried and true antifreeze, like in aios.


Zarathustra[H] said:
Where? IN industrial coolant loops and in cars? Those two are sadly not very comparable to the coolant loop of a PC, where the micro-channels are very small, and sensitive to event he slightest amount of corrosion, especially if nickel plated and the nickel plating starts chipping away.

Can you get away with it for a while? Sure. Just like how some people get away with driving 50k miles without an oil change.

Is it a good idea for the long term health of your loop? Absolutely not.
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yeah yeah. only been doing it without issues for ~20 years...
 
German Muscle said:
so what coolant is widely available mainstream that works with aluminum, copper, and brass?
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I haven't touched watercooling in 15 years (AIOs notwithstanding) but even back then there were plenty of options unless you were going for the ultimate performance and you were rolling menthol or something crazy. Actually, even menthol I think works with mixed metals, you just can't see if it's on fire...

The main problem IIRC was if there's any electricity in the loop, which in theory shouldn't be an issue, but you're putting it in a box of electricity and shit happens. Then you get electroplating problems.
 
pendragon1 said:
yeah yeah. only been doing it without issues for ~20 years...
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Details matter.

Copper / brass / nickel? ΔV is << 0.15V, so its not going to matter. These metals are not sufficiently dissimilar for galvanic corrosion to be rapid enough to have an effect even for years in a loop with fine detailed/toleranced fins and plating. (unless the plating process used sucks ass)

Copper / aluminum? ΔV is 0.55v-0.60v. You're going to have a bad time, and rather quickly at that. Even fluids with good anti-corrosive treatments break down over time, and they might not even save you here even when brand new.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Copper / aluminum? ΔV is 0.55v-0.60v. You're going to have a bad time, and rather quickly at that. Even fluids with good anti-corrosive treatments break down over time, and they might not even save you here even when brand new.
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exactly what most aios are made from and they are filled with antifreeze and water.
 
Bandsawing rads to see what the cores are really made of has been going on for what? 25+ years now? Absolutely fun to see the results and is necessary tbh. The OG sites that did all the major brands originally, then did them again 10 years later are long dead unfortunately. They did it to set the marketing record straight (and a few companies got extremely butt hurt over it)not for clicks. Not saying that's what Igors goal is, just sayin. Most rads that claim to be all copper aren't. Nearly all (99%) are brass cored(some are copper capped, some are brass) with the only copper being the fins. But that generally doesn't effect performance one iota either (the core material). Ask Alphacool.

Coolant that works best with mixed metals (copper/brass/aluminum)? Like pendragon1 said, Has always been antifreeze. I had a loop go years without ever touching it. A tiny cheapass Koolance alu rad, gold plated CPU and GPU blocks, tiny 1/4in. tubing and an itty bitty submerged pump. It was pristine when I finally decommissioned the p4 2.8c rig. AF lasts forever and is cheap as dirt @$10 a gallon. Im using Prestone in my back up rig currently and don't plan on changing it out for a good 4-5 years. No mixed metals in this iteration of course. I got really sick of spending $20 a liter for the Koolance liquid I use in my main rig. So Prestone to the rescue. Fits the green color scheme nicely as well 😁

As to why we're rehashing ancient, common knowledge type information? -shrug- I have no idea. Traveling down memory lane can be entertaining.
 
hititnquitit said:
Bandsawing rads to see what the cores are really made of has been going on for what? 25+ years now? Absolutely fun to see the results and is necessary tbh. The OG sites that did all the major brands originally, then did them again 10 years later are long dead unfortunately. They did it to set the marketing record straight (and a few companies got extremely butt hurt over it)not for clicks. Not saying that's what Igors goal is, just sayin. Most rads that claim to be all copper aren't. Nearly all (99%) are brass cored(some are copper capped, some are brass) with the only copper being the fins. But that generally doesn't effect performance one iota either (the core material). Ask Alphacool.

Coolant that works best with mixed metals (copper/brass/aluminum)? Like pendragon1 said, Has always been antifreeze. I had a loop go years without ever touching it. A tiny cheapass Koolance alu rad, gold plated CPU and GPU blocks, tiny 1/4in. tubing and an itty bitty submerged pump. It was pristine when I finally decommissioned the p4 2.8c rig. AF lasts forever and is cheap as dirt @$10 a gallon. Im using Prestone in my back up rig currently and don't plan on changing it out for a good 4-5 years. No mixed metals in this iteration of course. I got really sick of spending $20 a liter for the Koolance liquid I use in my main rig. So Prestone to the rescue. Fits the green color scheme nicely as well 😁

As to why we're rehashing ancient, common knowledge type information? -shrug- I have no idea. Traveling down memory lane can be entertaining.
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Yep. Antifreeze works just fine. Some are convinced that their pcs need super special treatment though.
 
NightReaver said:
Yep. Antifreeze works just fine. Some are convinced that their pcs need super special treatment though.
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The thing is, there is no such thing as a "general" corrosion inhibitor.

The chemicals in antifreeze are specifically formulated for the conditions you may find in a car, which are not the same materials, temperatures or tolerancea you are going to find in a PC loop.

Cars tend to have pretty grossly large tolerancea compared to the micro fins of a coolant block, also operate at higher temperatures in the engine block, (leading to more efficient heat transfer to the coolant) and have much larger radiators, meaning they can get away with a lot you can't (or don't want to) in a PC coolant loop.

I went down the rabbit hole of mixing my own a few years back and started reading up on the chemistry of corrosion inhibitors, and it is nowhere near as straight forward as some in this thread are suggesting.

I have seen loop components that have been eaten up by corrosion. Not in my own loop though.

And add to all that, antifreeze is also less efficient at moving heat than most PC coolants. The most efficient working fluid will always be pure distilled water, but it has surface tension and we don't like that, as it retains air bubbles and reduces contact with block and radiator surfaces, so we add a surfactant.

Then we want some sort of growth inhibitor. And we also want a corrosion inhibitor, but a corrosion inhibitor is not just one corrosion inhibitor, it is multiple, each formulated to prevent corrosion of a particular metal.

And then you have to mix all of these chemicals, so you have to make sure they don't react with each other.

Oh, and each thing you add to the distilled water reduces it's heat carrying capacity and makes the loop less efficient.

It quickly got out of hand, and I got back to buying specialized PC coolants.

I wouldn't use automotive antifreeze blends. They are not formulated specifically for the metals your loop may or may not have, and may be missing some,. They will also have extra chemicals in there to protect metals your loop doesn't have that are in a car, etc. etc.

That's not to say it can't work under the right conditions, but it will be less efficient at transferring heat, may corrode when the fluid degrades, etc. etc.

It's just not worth the risk.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Cars tend to have pretty grossly large tolerancea compared to the micro fins of a coolant block
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No I don't believe this, I've taken apart dashboards and replaced heater cores. They're the same automotive components as used to make water-cooling hardware.

ETA: I don't even know why I went to automotive in the first place; I used to work with PC parts manufacturers and I know for a fact that they use the same product lines.
 
Axman said:
No I don't believe this, I've taken apart dashboards and replaced heater cores. They're the same automotive components as used to make water-cooling hardware.
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I'm talking about these:

1709704106095.png


You don't want those channels to gunk up, and it also doesn't take a lot to corrode out those fins.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
The thing is, there is no such thing as a "general" corrosion inhibitor.

The chemicals in antifreeze are specifically formulated for the conditions you may find in a car, which are not the same materials, temperatures or tolerancea you are going to find in a PC loop.

Cars tend to have pretty grossly large tolerancea compared to the micro fins of a coolant block, also operate at higher temperatures in the engine block, (leading to more efficient heat transfer to the coolant) and have much larger radiators, meaning they can get away with a lot you can't (or don't want to) in a PC coolant loop.

I went down the rabbit hole of mixing my own a few years back and started reading up on the chemistry of corrosion inhibitors, and it is nowhere near as straight forward as some in this thread are suggesting.

I have seen loop components that have been eaten up by corrosion. Not in my own loop though.

And add to all that, antifreeze is also less efficient at moving heat than most PC coolants. The most efficient working fluid will always be pure distilled water, but it has surface tension and we don't like that, as it retains air bubbles and reduces contact with block and radiator surfaces, so we add a surfactant.

Then we want some sort of growth inhibitor. And we also want a corrosion inhibitor, but a corrosion inhibitor is not just one corrosion inhibitor, it is multiple, each formulated to prevent corrosion of a particular metal.

And then you have to mix all of these chemicals, so you have to make sure they don't react with each other.

Oh, and each thing you add to the distilled water reduces it's heat carrying capacity and makes the loop less efficient.

It quickly got out of hand, and I got back to buying specialized PC coolants.

I wouldn't use automotive antifreeze blends. They are not formulated specifically for the metals your loop may or may not have, and may be missing some,. They will also have extra chemicals in there to protect metals your loop doesn't have that are in a car, etc. etc.

That's not to say it can't work under the right conditions, but it will be less efficient at transferring heat, may corrode when the fluid degrades, etc. etc.

It's just not worth the risk.
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Risk? There's zero risk when running antifreeze. We're not talking about vehicle temps. Just wimpy pc temps. It wont clog up CPU or GPU fins or stop up rads. There's no worries of thermal breakdown in a pc loop, period. By eliminating the one factor that destroys AF, heat, we have no reason to assume it will somehow damage components. The only time I've seen AF fail dramatically, was in a old truck that had a plugged return line. The AF in the return line basically sat there, cooked for years and turned into a kind of crystalline gel. Those conditions aren't anything near to reality in our loops obviously. Point being, AF is an excellent anti-corrosive, and pump lubricant, transfers heat within a degree or two of distilled, matches the best pre-diluted and lasts years in a loop without breaking down in any discernable way.

Copper, aluminum, brass, steel, plastics and rubbers of varying compositions...very similar compositions between the two cooling systems. Automotive and PC.

Have you run AF in a loop before? I get the distinct impression you haven't.
 
Axman said:
I don't even know why I went to automotive in the first place; I used to work with PC parts manufacturers and I know for a fact that they use the same product lines.
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I believe HWlabs even uses that as a marketing point :D They sure have the bulk of an auto radiator lol.
 
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