Frame-rate jumpy, 120hz, microstutter?

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WeApOn

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May 30, 2013
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I recently upgraded to a 120hz monitor. With Vsync on, I am experiencing what I believe I have read to be called 'microstutter'.

Basically, my framerate will be steady at 120 and then suddenly drop to 60, causing jerky motion to my graphics.

Is this normal, or is my graphics card dropping frames? It seems that some programs that should maintain 120fps or higher are still causing microstutter.

With Vsync off, I maintain my 120fps or higher, and do not experience any stutter. However I would like to keep Vsync on to avoid tearing. I don't think there is any other way to eliminate tearing without Vsync on, correct?

Thanks for any information that can be provided.
 
Some information on your computer setup will be necessary before people can give you any meaningful advice (what graphics card, which programs/games, etc.)

For starters, I'd venture a guess that sjince you refer to a "graphics card," singular, what you have is not microstutter (which refers to multi-card jitteriness despite high FPS).

Also, are you using an nVidia or an AMD card?
 
Probably you are dropping below 120 (even 119) and that causes VSync to 'skip' a frame. If you're on nVidia check out the Adaptive VSync setting, on AMD there is a freeware tool called RadeonPro that does something similar.
 
Ajiki-kun said:
Some information on your computer setup will be necessary before people can give you any meaningful advice (what graphics card, which programs/games, etc.)

For starters, I'd venture a guess that sjince you refer to a "graphics card," singular, what you have is not microstutter (which refers to multi-card jitteriness despite high FPS).

Also, are you using an nVidia or an AMD card?
Click to expand...

I'm on an NVIDIA GTX 670, using an ASUS 144hz monitor. Any other specific specs that would help?

gzboli said:
Probably you are dropping below 120 (even 119) and that causes VSync to 'skip' a frame. If you're on nVidia check out the Adaptive VSync setting, on AMD there is a freeware tool called RadeonPro that does something similar.
Click to expand...

I feel like this is exactly what is happening, however one of the programs I am using should absolutely not be dropping below 120fps. It's PixPerAn, a motion blur testing program. Take a look what it is doing here:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/h9ppml

As you can see, the program has virtually no graphics. I should be able to run this at 1000fps with no stutter at all.

I have included a Vsync ON and OFF video to show the stutter effect. Even with it off though, it looks like it is dropping from 144fps to 143fps every few seconds.

This happens just the same if I am running at 120fps.
 
Right, but with Vsync on, when it drops below 120, it does directly to 60fps, then back up to 120. With adaptive Vsync it should hang around 120 at all times.
 
I believe the problem is -- it should absolutely not be dropping below 120. You can see in the videos above that the program should not be losing frames at all.

Additionally, I believe I have tried with Adaptive VSync and experienced similar issues. I can try again tonight and report what happens, but I am 90% sure that did not solve my issue when I tried before.

I think I need to figure out why I am dropping these frames. I should be locked at 120 or 144 regardless in this program.
 
This is what Vsync is suppose to do...
With 60hz monitors it will drop from 60fps down to 30fps
With Adaptive Vsync or RadeonPro( Both are basically a framerate limiter) it will cap the fps at the refresh rate but will allow the fps to go below the refresh rate instead of the sudden drop you experience.
 
Hmm.. So perhaps I will try enabling Adaptive VSync again then and see what happens. But I still don't think I should be losing any frames from this program. Why when I would use Vsync on a 60fps monitor, I wouldn't drop to 30 all the time? I should be able to lock in at 120fps and have no drops.
 
Looks to me like that program's just doing something stupid with framerate caps. It definitely forces its own fps limits - if it didn't, vsync off would be giving you 10,000fps, not 144. With vsync on at 144Hz, any framerate dip should peg you at 72fps, so the 60fps limit you're hitting is clearly artificial (and obviously wrong). I think it's a bug. Don't worry about it.

As for the dips from 120 to 60 in other applications, that sounds pretty normal. Ordinary vsync just can't do 119fps; anything below 120, and it drops all the way to 60. There are two ways to fix it:
- Adaptive vsync (introduces tearing)
- Triple buffering (increases input latency)

Triple buffering needs to be forced with a third-party tool like D3DOverrider. (The triple buffering checkbox in your control panel is a lie.)
 
LuminaryJanitor said:
Looks to me like that program's just doing something stupid with framerate caps. It definitely forces its own fps limits - if it didn't, vsync off would be giving you 10,000fps, not 144. With vsync on at 144Hz, any framerate dip should peg you at 72fps, so the 60fps limit you're hitting is clearly artificial (and obviously wrong). I think it's a bug. Don't worry about it.

As for the dips from 120 to 60 in other applications, that sounds pretty normal. Ordinary vsync just can't do 119fps; anything below 120, and it drops all the way to 60. There are two ways to fix it:
- Adaptive vsync (introduces tearing)
- Triple buffering (increases input latency)

Triple buffering needs to be forced with a third-party tool like D3DOverrider. (The triple buffering checkbox in your control panel is a lie.)
Click to expand...

Thank you. This has been the most informative post, and I understand a few more things now.

I think Adaptive VSync might be my best bet, unless I am using a program that can maintain well over 144 or 120fps, correct?

As far as tearing, there's nothing I can really do about that, so I'll just have to learn to deal.
 
Yep, give Adaptive Vsync a try. Make sure you turn Vsync off in the program/game while turning on AdVsync on in the control panel. Let us know how it does.
 
WeApOn said:
Thank you. This has been the most informative post, and I understand a few more things now.

I think Adaptive VSync might be my best bet, unless I am using a program that can maintain well over 144 or 120fps, correct?

As far as tearing, there's nothing I can really do about that, so I'll just have to learn to deal.
Click to expand...

Vsync keeps the fps locked at the refresh rate which would be 120/144 if the game can product 120/144 then it drops the fps to 60/72. Adaptive Vsync still locks you at 120/144 but if the game cant push it then it allows the fps to drop to 119/143 and lower so it is still smooth. Tearing is only caused when the fps is higher then the refresh rate.
 
With Adaptive VSync enabled, I am still unable to get a framerate between 144 and 60 in the blur testing program. It is only 144 or 60. Only with VSync specifically off will it maintain 144(while sometimes dropping to 143).

Since I didn't want to only use that program to test, since there could be bugs, I tried running a game and experienced extreme mouse jitter. I was trying to move the mouse around the screen smoothly and every other second it would stagger and then jump. It's acting just like the blur test program is.

I have specifically set Adaptive VSync to ON and I told NVIDIA Control Panel to use it's own settings, not the application settings.

What could still be causing this staggering?

Edit: Going to try a few other games. Could a frame limiter built into the game be causing my staggering? I would think not -- let's say there is a hard cap at 30fps for a specific game -- I should never get above 30fps and I should not see any staggering, right?

Is there any program I can use to monitor my FPS more closely than FRAPS? While running FRAPS it appears that my framerate is steady, but the mouse stagger is more than evident.

Uploaded another example(with Adaptive VSync on, and monitoring FRAPS) here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/bkiuil
 
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So, are you running it with AdVsync on in the control panel while setting Vsync off in the program/game?
 
DejaWiz said:
So, are you running it with AdVsync on in the control panel while setting Vsync off in the program/game?
Click to expand...

For the two games I tested -- Only one had an option for VSync. I had that set to OFF.
The blur testing program unfortunately doesn't let me change any settings.

However wouldn't NVIDIA Control Panel override the game settings either way?
 
Is there any chance these issues could be caused by something outside of the software realm? ie - Bad video card, bad cables? Would like to rule those out if possible.
 
Jorona said:
Just a shot in the dark, whats the polling rate on your mouse?
Click to expand...

Unsure, but this doesn't happen on my desktop and doesn't happen in every graphic application either. With VSync off, it is not happening at all. Would that eliminate that idea?
 
IMO just turn off V-sync. I run 120hz and find v-sync just adds mouse lag.
 
WeApOn said:
Unsure, but this doesn't happen on my desktop and doesn't happen in every graphic application either. With VSync off, it is not happening at all. Would that eliminate that idea?
Click to expand...

I've seen high polling rate mice cause odd stutter in certain situations. I'd have to imagine at high refresh rates it would be that much worse.
 
blinx said:
IMO just turn off V-sync. I run 120hz and find v-sync just adds mouse lag.
Click to expand...

This might end up being the best solution for me, but what gives? Is there a problem on my computer or is this the way it should be behaving?

For shits and giggles I will try a different mouse tonight, but as the other poster stated, probably a shot in the dark.

Again, any chance this is a hardware issue with my video card?

Is there any other program that monitors my FPS closer than FRAPS? I want to see if I am indeed dipping or if there is some type of stutter being caused by something else.
 
Nevermind, re-read your OP and I misunderstood what you wrote.

I would monitor your card and check the temps, Kepler throttles around 70*C. If your boost clock is dropping suddenly it may have the same impact as a stutter in the game. I have flashed all of my Kepler cards with custom BIOS to stop that crap from happening, it was really annoying in some games that ride along at less than 99% use or cause higher than normal temps as the clock speeds may fluctuate wildly down to the "intermediate" clocks of around 624mhz which I think is for HD movies and cause a massive stutter for a second before picking back up.
 
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Edit:

As far as my temps, I am at a very healthy level in most of these programs. The programs I used to test with today, I wasn't even hitting 65C.

I have overclocked however. I could try to completely drop my OC and see what happens, but I think I've done that before.
 
WeApOn said:
Edit:

As far as my temps, I am at a very healthy level in most of these programs. The programs I used to test with today, I wasn't even hitting 65C.
Click to expand...

Haha edit fest going on here. I wasn't reading carefully when I first posted. I discovered my cards doing this by stretching out the graph for afterburner and running the games ofr a few minutes, everything looked fine on the OSD but when I went back I found random spikes of low clocks for no apparent reason.
 
Haha yeah edit fest indeed :p

So you saw something similar happening on your GTX 670's before? Do you think if I used the custom BIOS you used it might fix my issues as well?
 
WeApOn said:
Haha yeah edit fest indeed :p

So you saw something similar happening on your GTX 670's before? Do you think if I used the custom BIOS you used it might fix my issues as well?
Click to expand...

I'll have to check your video when I get home from work (can't open it here) and see if it was similar to what I was seeing. Have you tried using rivatuner to set a frame cap rather than using vsync and seeing how it behaves?
 
LigTasm said:
I'll have to check your video when I get home from work (can't open it here) and see if it was similar to what I was seeing. Have you tried using rivatuner to set a frame cap rather than using vsync and seeing how it behaves?
Click to expand...

Since I'm starved for options, I will try this as soon as I get home as well. If my video sets off any switches, let me know. I'm dying for any ideas, I feel like there's definitely some issue on my PC, and still a little worried I might have a faulty component.
 
WeApOn said:
Since I'm starved for options, I will try this as soon as I get home as well. If my video sets off any switches, let me know. I'm dying for any ideas, I feel like there's definitely some issue on my PC, and still a little worried I might have a faulty component.
Click to expand...

Can you list the rest of your specs somewhere? I didn't see them in this thread.
 
you bought a 120hz monitor to run games at constant 120fps? good luck with that.

turn the V-sync off.
 
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Im surprised this hasnt been suggested, but have you unistalled the Nvidia drivers, run a driver cleaner so it cleans up any registry items or files left over after uninstalling, then reinstall the latest driver? It may not solve the issue but it at least rules out if that is it or not. Doing this solved graphical issues for me in the past.
 
LigTasm said:
Can you list the rest of your specs somewhere? I didn't see them in this thread.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I should have included them:

Lynnfield i7 860
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
GIGABYTE GA-P55-USB3 LGA 1156 Intel
WD Blue WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
ASUS VG248QE 144hz Monitor

Domini said:
Im surprised this hasnt been suggested, but have you unistalled the Nvidia drivers, run a driver cleaner so it cleans up any registry items or files left over after uninstalling, then reinstall the latest driver? It may not solve the issue but it at least rules out if that is it or not. Doing this solved graphical issues for me in the past.
Click to expand...

I did the "clean install" just yesterday. Is that enough to clear the registry, or do you think it's worth running a third party driver cleaner? I would be willing to do this again if so. If so, which cleaner is recommended?

Thanks!
 
TroyX said:
you bought a 120hz monitor to run games at constant 120fps? good luck with that.

turn the V-sync off.
Click to expand...
Spending extra money to get an extra level of visual quality in motion fluidity and then disabling the option that prevents almost every single image from being sheared doesn't make much sense.
 
wonderfield said:
Spending extra money to get an extra level of visual quality in motion fluidity and then disabling the option that prevents almost every single image from being sheared doesn't make much sense.
Click to expand...

what?

its obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, you can feel the game running smoother with V-sync off on 120hz monitors once you go past 60fps.
 
So in doing some more testing.. With VSync OFF in a few applications I experience no mouse stutter at all. Then when testing using Metro Last Light, I feel like there is still a VERY slight mouse stagger still. Almost barely noticeable though.

I just want to make sure we are on the right track by looking at VSync, as opposed to some other random issue I might be having.
 
Another shot in the dark -- would there be a chance that I'm experiencing a lag on my monitor, and not my PC? I'm thinking of this because FRAPS was reporting a constant framerate, but I was seeing a stagger.

I am using an extension cord for my DVI-D cable, so I'm wondering if an issue like this might exist at longer lengths? I could try to move my monitor closer to my PC and test if anyone thinks this might be worth it.
 
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Domini said:
Tearing is only caused when the fps is higher then the refresh rate.
Click to expand...
Tearing happens whenever rendering is not synchronised. Adaptive vsync still tears when your fps dips below your refresh rate.

WeApOn said:
With Adaptive VSync enabled, I am still unable to get a framerate between 144 and 60 in the blur testing program. It is only 144 or 60.
Click to expand...
Like I said, I don't think vsync itself is to blame. I think it's just a badly written program. Find yourself a better benchmark. Something in 3D... I don't think that blur tester is even running on your GPU. I'm not surprised that the control panel settings are having no effect.

WeApOn said:
Is there any program I can use to monitor my FPS more closely than FRAPS?
Click to expand...
Try FRAPS's frametime logging.

WeApOn said:
I think Adaptive VSync might be my best bet, unless I am using a program that can maintain well over 144 or 120fps, correct?
Click to expand...
Up to you. The input lag bothers be less than the tearing, so I'll take triple buffering over adaptive vsync any day. Where input lag actually matters, I wouldn't be using vsync in the first place.
 
I don't see how the input issue could be display-related. If you're still seeing frames being output during the lapses in input response, then what you're dealing with is purely an input issue, whether that's on the device side or the software side.

Vertical sync is purely a software solution, so don't look for hardware defects that manifest as a result of enabling it. You can safely rule any out.

As for the cable length, the maximum recommended continuous length is going to be around seven feet at 1920x1080x144 Hz, assuming the info on Wikipedia is correct. You can use inline boosters if you need lengths greater than that.
 
More testing -- Using Crusader Kings 2.

I loaded the game with VSync ON in NVIDIA CP, and set my in-game refresh rate to 60. No problems at all.

I then set my refresh rate to 144, reloaded the game, and experienced the terrible mouse stutter, and FRAPS had an interesting output:

0Weiu4m.jpg


The line at the top represents my current framerate.. it was staggered between 63fps and a bit lower. On the screen I was on, I should easily have much more than 60fps, unless the program has a built-in limiter.
 
wonderfield said:
As for the cable length, the maximum recommended continuous length is going to be around seven feet at 1920x1080x144 Hz, assuming the info on Wikipedia is correct. You can use inline boosters if you need lengths greater than that.
Click to expand...

I have a total of 20ft of DVI-D cable. Might this be an issue? My desktop appears fine at 144hz.
 
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