Changes to the "For Sale/Trade" system

J

John

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 27, 2004
Messages
371
As many of you may have noticed, the "For Sale/Trade" forum is the busiest area on [H]ard|Forum. Because of the sheer number of threads and replies the FSFT section receives every day, new threads often disappear from the first page within the hour and constant bumping is all too common. Because literally hundreds of items are bought and sold through the forum each day, standard threads aren’t really appropriate - time for some changes!

The plan is to use a completely different system for buying and selling through [H]ard|Forum, without using standard forum threads. Here are the main features so far:
- Categories for easier browsing.
- Full text searches, with results based on accuracy/relevance.
- One item per listing, for searching and categorization.
- Auctions. (Based on reserve prices, user bids, and ending after X days.)
- Classifieds, where a seller specifies a set price for a listing.
- User ratings, e.g. John (29).
- User feedback.
- Image uploads for items.
- Redesigned interface for viewing items.
- Full forum integration. (For example, viewing a member’s profile will also display all of the listings they have in the FSFT area.)
- Optional PM/Email notifications for events. (For bids, sale completions, etc.)

Those are the basics. The feature list isn’t set in stone, we might scrap some features and add others. The purpose of this thread is for suggestions for features you’d find useful in the new system. Also, comments or questions on the current feature list would be appreciated.
 
Interesting.
I hope we have a trial period to see how it goes.


John said:
Here are the main features so far:

- Categories for easier browsing.
Click to expand...
Very Nice - great to see.

- Full text searches, with results based on accuracy/relevance.
- One item per listing, for searching and categorization.
Click to expand...
Looks good. The one item per listing isnt easy for those with lots of items, but i'll take it since it will make the search and categories work.

- Auctions. (Based on reserve prices, user bids, and ending after X days.)
Click to expand...
Have to see it in action.

- User ratings, e.g. John (29).
- User feedback.
Click to expand...

As listed in this thread here,
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=764855
Heatware does not acknowledge the [H]ardforum.

Any chance of having our own feedback system, similar to Ars Beerology?


- Image uploads for items.
- Redesigned interface for viewing items.
- Full forum integration. (For example, viewing a member?s profile will also display all of the listings they have in the FSFT area.)
- Optional PM/Email notifications for events. (For bids, sale completions, etc.)
Click to expand...
These are awsome features. Expect a lot more traffic.
I suggest a small fee to do business here, because I rather pay more money and get good service then have free service and more trolls.
 
auctions dont sound like a good idea if you ask me, this isnt ebay, but everything else looks like MAJOR improvments
 
I assume this is a hack or 3rd party software that will be integrated into vbulletin.

This system sounds like something that is going to take multiple template AND file hacks. The downside to this is everytime this forum is upgraded IE 3.0.1 -> 3.0.2 the file hacks will have to be redone.

This can cause a great deal of extra un-needed work for the administration. Not only this, but template and file hacks over time can make the overall forum software unstable, and add extra security problems that might not be evident at the time of the hack's implementation.

I suggest a serious re-consideration of this system. Yes, it does have some upsides, but the system will take time to have all the users relearn, and that will cause extra PM's to all mods and admins asking how things work, and so on.

What I suggest is simply makeing about 4 or 5 sub-forums within the ForSale/Trade forum that organizes things more neatly.
IE.. computer sales, software sales, Cars/boats/RC's/planes/etc, other electronic sales, misc..
 
i find the above idea bad, and people will end up just complaining about an item being in the wrong section. The new idea isnt as complicated as you put it, how do you know its not just a simple plugin or something?
 
nothing for vbulletin is a "simple plugin"

espically something requireing this amount of integration.
John, is this going to be a custom coded hack.. or are you using a 3rd party companies?
If you are using someone elses.. let me know what it is and Ill do some research on it and see if anything about it can be improved for this forums needs.

Besides, other than my previous suggestion.. I really dont think anything needs to be done.. I like it the way it is.

When I post for sale threads over at anandtech they are on the second page within about 20 minutes. All you have to do is bump it every few hours, its not that big a deal.
 
Everything but the "auction" style sales sound like a massive improvement! Can't wait to see it!

IMHO, it would be best to leave the auctions for E-Bay and the like.
 
How 'bout just leaving the "auction" thing for the sellers to decide for themselves...it would be posted with the rest of the fs/ft threads but have "auction" rules...
 
I don't really like the idea of auction style posts nor the idea of categories. Yes categories would be more organized, but say you gotta sell a bunch of stuff, it could take a while to moke up the many posts needed.

On another note, I'd venture to say that Anandtech FSFT produces 25-50% more sales/trades than here. They have been using the standard thread system and it works just fine.

Just my op.
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
I assume this is a hack or 3rd party software that will be integrated into vbulletin.

This system sounds like something that is going to take multiple template AND file hacks. The downside to this is everytime this forum is upgraded IE 3.0.1 -> 3.0.2 the file hacks will have to be redone.

This can cause a great deal of extra un-needed work for the administration. Not only this, but template and file hacks over time can make the overall forum software unstable, and add extra security problems that might not be evident at the time of the hack's implementation.

I suggest a serious re-consideration of this system. Yes, it does have some upsides, but the system will take time to have all the users relearn, and that will cause extra PM's to all mods and admins asking how things work, and so on.

What I suggest is simply makeing about 4 or 5 sub-forums within the ForSale/Trade forum that organizes things more neatly.
IE.. computer sales, software sales, Cars/boats/RC's/planes/etc, other electronic sales, misc..
Click to expand...


Thanks for the thoughts, but we are looking for feedback on the features. We are very versed with the ins and outs of VBulletin, thanks.
 
Metallica_Band said:
How 'bout just leaving the "auction" thing for the sellers to decide for themselves...it would be posted with the rest of the fs/ft threads but have "auction" rules...
Click to expand...


That would absolutely be it. You would have the option to do an auction if you CHOSE to do so.
 
TwiceOver said:
I don't really like the idea of auction style posts nor the idea of categories. Yes categories would be more organized, but say you gotta sell a bunch of stuff, it could take a while to moke up the many posts needed.

On another note, I'd venture to say that Anandtech FSFT produces 25-50% more sales/trades than here. They have been using the standard thread system and it works just fine.

Just my op.
Click to expand...


What don't you like about auction sales specifically?

I understand the concern on multiple posts, that is something that would have to be worked out and I have several ideas on how to do this successfully.
 
i dont know...auctions just dont seem right, i want certain prices, and this isnt the place to be starting things at 99 cents and seeing how good they can go, and there arent enough people if you ask me. Its hard to explain, but it just doesnt feel right, I prefer just straight out selling for prices.
 
So are we looking at a system somewhat similar to that of hardfind?

If so, I say go for it. With the flow of people here, it should become a thriving community. Regarding auctions, if it is so concerning to the forum members, why not put it to a vote in the forum? Obviously the moderators would have the final say, but it might help to establish a consensus.

Just my $.02
 
I'm against auctions on a forum like setting for a few reasons...one of which is that forums promote a way to get to know your fellow programmers/modders/gamers/etc. and auctions more often than not promote waiting until the last second to swoop in and win, which will only cause bad blood between users.

I'd also question the category listing for people who post more than one item at a time. Are they going to have to make one post for each of 20 xbox games, each of 15 pieces of hardware, and each of 10 pieces of software they've decided to sell that time? Doing up one post I can see, but 45 posts could definitely be a pain in the ass.
 
i think xoxideforum had catergorized fs/ft threads... and it didnt work very well... it was kinda pain in the ass to use and it was really weird... especially auction functions and auction threads (everybody was using auction template for some reason.... o well...

can we have poll on this matter???
 
TSx said:
I'd also question the category listing for people who post more than one item at a time. Are they going to have to make one post for each of 20 xbox games, each of 15 pieces of hardware, and each of 10 pieces of software they've decided to sell that time? Doing up one post I can see, but 45 posts could definitely be a pain in the ass.
Click to expand...

This is a real legit gripe and as mentioned above, it would need to be worked around not changed. I have a couple of ideas I will get with John on.
 
John said:
Categories for easier browsing.
- Full text searches, with results based on accuracy/relevance. extranious and confusing
- One item per listing, for searching and categorization. hard on the lister/seller
- Auctions. (Based on reserve prices, user bids, and ending after X days.) PITA, go to Ebay
- Classifieds, where a seller specifies a set price for a listing. What we have now
- User ratings, e.g. John (29). Heatware.com, but good
- User feedback. ? Heatware again
- Image uploads for items. good thing but extra bandwidth
- Redesigned interface for viewing items. waste
- Full forum integration. (For example, viewing a member’s profile will also display all of the listings they have in the FSFT area.) Very good but extranious
- Optional PM/Email notifications for events. (For bids, sale completions, etc.) PITA and extranious
Click to expand...

Really the hard part is adding new features without having it just be frills and still making it easy to list (30 posts for 30 items is a waste of bandwidth, time, storage, ...) yet easy to find what you want (for the buyer to find what they want, or to just browse and see what catches their eye).
 
I got another idea...why don't you do this: Instead of setting this new stuff up and totally replacing it with the FS/FT forum, why don't you have not only the FS/FT forum UNTOUCHED and ALSO have FS/FT/Auction Beta...

ppl who want to wait until the new forum is perfected and all issues worked out can still do it the old way and post in the original FS/FT forum and the ppl who want to help you out and use the FS/FT/Auction Beta (or whatever) can use the new forum...

this would be totally temporary until you've worked out all issues and tested it out and see how ppl respond to it...that way you make everyone happy... :D

You like that idea Kyle???
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
well excuse me. :rolleyes: Thats the last time Ill ever try and help you Kyle. Everytime I ever give you tips or suggestions you act like you know everything. Figure that shit out for yourself then.
Click to expand...
Ummm...that's because Kyle DOES know everything... :rolleyes:...I thought EVERYBODY knew that by now!!!

BTW...prepare for banination :mad:
 
cyr0n_k0r said:
I assume this is a hack or 3rd party software that will be integrated into vbulletin.

This system sounds like something that is going to take multiple template AND file hacks. The downside to this is everytime this forum is upgraded IE 3.0.1 -> 3.0.2 the file hacks will have to be redone.

This can cause a great deal of extra un-needed work for the administration. Not only this, but template and file hacks over time can make the overall forum software unstable, and add extra security problems that might not be evident at the time of the hack's implementation.

I suggest a serious re-consideration of this system. Yes, it does have some upsides, but the system will take time to have all the users relearn, and that will cause extra PM's to all mods and admins asking how things work, and so on.

What I suggest is simply makeing about 4 or 5 sub-forums within the ForSale/Trade forum that organizes things more neatly.
IE.. computer sales, software sales, Cars/boats/RC's/planes/etc, other electronic sales, misc..
Click to expand...

You're telling us to scrap a system which people seem to like the idea of, because it'll be hard for us to upgrade. Given that we'd be coding it from scratch, I think that we have a full enough understanding of how vBulletin works - no, upgrades won't be any problem.

Fortunately, I specialize in creating idiot-proof interfaces for a living - so the system will be user friendly, I doubt it'll cause any extra work for the moderators. If it does it'll settle down after a week or two.

cyr0n_k0r said:
well excuse me. :rolleyes:
Thats the last time Ill ever try and help you Kyle.

Everytime I ever give you tips or suggestions you act like you know everything. Figure that shit out for yourself then.

EDIT: and for the record.. last time I asked you a question about a feature you had on the forum regarding vbulletin.. you knew JACK SHIT what it was you were talking about.
Click to expand...

Kyle isn't coding it, I am. :rolleyes:
 
1 item per post....bad idea....unless you have an OC12 up yer sleeve.

Auction posts? Yuck....I'll go to eGay if I want that. The absence of auctions is exactly WHY I'd rather do business on the Hardforums.

Coding....that's up to you guys...long as I dont have to do any extra work :p
 
Minomine said:
1 item per post....bad idea....unless you have an OC12 up yer sleeve.

Auction posts? Yuck....I'll go to eGay if I want that. The absence of auctions is exactly WHY I'd rather do business on the Hardforums.

Coding....that's up to you guys...long as I dont have to do any extra work :p
Click to expand...

Well, we're still considering how to do it - that's what the thread is for.

There are a few options we could do.

1. Classified ads, with a set price.
2. Flexible classified ads, where buyers can make offers (seen only by the seller) on items. So if I decide to sell an 8Mb stick of EDO RAM for $1,200, people can offer what they think it's worth rather than having to stick to the price I provide. If I like any of the offers, I can accept. (For each listing you'll see an overview of the offers you've had so far.)
3. Auctions - especially useful when the seller doesn't know how much an item is worth. There are a few options for auctions:
- Proxy bidding (like on eBay)
- Max. offer bidding, where everyone submits the highest price they're willing to pay. (And the highest bidder wins.) The difference here is that the highest price a person is willing to pay is used, instead of a few cents more than the second highest bidder.

Don't forget, sellers can use any of the three. I'm sure that auctions won't be that popular, but useful when there's a rare item for sale.

Personally, I like the idea of flexible classified ads. Just like regular ones, but with integrated haggling. ;)

Now, onto the "one item per listing" debate. There's nothing to stop people from selling a batch of anything, just like the do now. (The new search system will be able to cope with it.) But if you're selling several things with several prices, it has to be done in its own listing.
 
Minomine said:
1 item per post....bad idea....unless you have an OC12 up yer sleeve.
Click to expand...

Don't forget you'll be able to view all of the items a user is selling through their profile page.
 
No auction sales are the main reasons i do buisness in fs/t.

Mainly because if i want to buy something i don't have to worry about "winning" i know the set price and wa la, i can get it now or not at all. Waiting til the last day for someone to snipe me while i'm not here is a headache. Aswell as auctions generally cause the prices across the board to go up, even to retail in some things (like ebay, people have ended up paying retail and even OVER for some things)

Aswell as the whole 1 item per thing, that sounds like it's going to cause a headache. It's easy to just come here, make 1 topic and list everything you have fs and also what you want , just plain short and simple.

How are "wants" going to be handled though now? since it seems all of these features are geared toward selling?
 
I can see one good thing in the one item per post thing....
we'll have less of those guys like Faust69usa guy who posts the same FS/FT posts on multiple forums who rarely have better deals than online retailers....

I do like the non-auction thing the [H] has going...I also like the idea of a verification thing, though that will be difficult to implement.

One can still use Heatware on the [H] forums...you just gotta use "other". I've only traded on [H] and have a good standing with heatware.com.

I also like the idea of putting the FS/FT threads in a person's profile.

the idea of sub-forums is a good idea too...


my $.02
 
TwiceOver said:
My main problem with auctions:

Say I have something up for "Auction" it goes on for a few days and I finally have my high bidder, I contact that person and they say something like "I already purchased the item because I found it in the FSFT section at a good price". Other than a neutral eval (Which can't be done on Heatware (Hence a new eval system would have to be created)) what is my recourse? I'd be screwed out of a few days wait, and probably have to sell the item at a lower price to the next highest bidder.
Click to expand...

First of all, auctions are completely optional. You wouldn't have to use them. ;)

Secondly, you've raised a good point - timewasters in auctions. One way to prevent this would be to use requirements on people who can bid on your auction. For example, "only allow bidders who have been registered for over 3 months and have at least 100 posts". It would work, but the problem will be finding a way to keep things simple. We don't want to overcomplicate things too much.

TwiceOver said:
On a side note about an evaluation system. I'd like to see, somehow, a verification system. Something that tells me "Yes this person lives where they say". I know this could be a huge undertaking but what about say a $1 paypal donation to become verified. That would easily cover the $.37 stamp, that is if someone would be willing to put up the time. The more I think about this while I type, the more painful this sounds. Something that needs to be worked out though. I enjoy the [H] with a passion but [H]FSFT is known around the boards as being the Troll Capitol of the Web.
Click to expand...

Personally, I think this is a good idea. The more ways of verifying a user is legit, the better.

TwiceOver said:
EDIT: A couple of the posts above by John mention things as to "The new search system will be able to cope with it" and "Don't forget you'll be able to view all of the items a user is selling through their profile page" When I go to the various forums, I am there to browse. Search is of course good, and of course being able to see what else they are selling, I beg you to please not loose that feel. Also, generally, when I am looking for something I usually search the forum, then put up a WTB. Even if in my search I find what I am looking for, putting up a WTB lets me know what else is out there. EDIT.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, the ability to browse pages will still be here. If you want to look at a linear page of everything for sale, it'll be available.
 
John said:
Personally, I think this is a good idea. The more ways of verifying a user is legit, the better.
Click to expand...
One way to weed out little kiddies would be to have them send a dollar through pay pal, then have an application faxed to [H]. I've seen a couple of forums do that. While I don't have a fax machine, I'm sure I'll find away to do it to use the [H]FSFT without trolls.
 
Stiler said:
Aswell as the whole 1 item per thing, that sounds like it's going to cause a headache. It's easy to just come here, make 1 topic and list everything you have fs and also what you want , just plain short and simple.

How are "wants" going to be handled though now? since it seems all of these features are geared toward selling?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's short and simple for the seller - but it's a lot more hassle for the buyer. If sellers have one item per listing, it makes browsing/searching/bidding much easier for the buyer.

For example, if someone wants to find a cheap graphics card there's no easy way of doing that at the moment. You can only browse through every single thread until you find what you want. With the new system you'd be able to view the "graphics cards" category and sort by price. This sort of functionality isn't possible with the way we're doing things at the moment - isn't it worth the extra effort?

Yes, there'll be a separate system for wanted items. We definitely won't want to be overcomplicating that, it might just be kept as a regular forum.
 
Fark_Maniac said:
One way to weed out little kiddies would be to have them send a dollar through pay pal, then have an application faxed to [H]. I've seen a couple of forums do that. While I don't have a fax machine, I'm sure I'll find away to do it to use the [H]FSFT without trolls.
Click to expand...

Well, something similar. E.g. paying a dollar through PayPal, and then sending out a verification code to their address. (Which the user can then enter on [H] to verify they've received the code.)
 
John said:
Well, something similar. E.g. paying a dollar through PayPal, and then sending out a verification code to their address. (Which the user can then enter on [H] to verify they've received the code.)
Click to expand...

This is what I was getting at. Could end up rather time consuming. But $1 - Paypal Fees = something like $0.65 - .37 stamp = $.28 to pay for envelopes, sheet of paper, time.

Those without paypal could send $1 cash to whomever would be running this show.
 
John said:
First of all, auctions are completely optional. You wouldn't have to use them.
Click to expand...


but many sellers will switch to an auction style listing instead of fixed price, look at how many times a new person has made an "auction" type sale thread before reading the rules.

I'd almost guarntee that the forum will go from fixed price sales majority to auction style sales being the majority after it's open for a while.

guess we won't know until we try it though.
what about people that make extra accounts just to raise the prices on their items like people do on ebay?
 
John said:
Yes, it's short and simple for the seller - but it's a lot more hassle for the buyer. If sellers have one item per listing, it makes browsing/searching/bidding much easier for the buyer.

For example, if someone wants to find a cheap graphics card there's no easy way of doing that at the moment. You can only browse through every single thread until you find what you want. With the new system you'd be able to view the "graphics cards" category and sort by price. This sort of functionality isn't possible with the way we're doing things at the moment - isn't it worth the extra effort?

Yes, there'll be a separate system for wanted items. We definitely won't want to be overcomplicating that, it might just be kept as a regular forum.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't there be a way to like say, let people classiffy each item they have for sale but keep it all in one post for the buyer to make it easy, and still let the search/catagories find that items and group all the same type of items together? so it'd be easy for both buyer and seller.
 
S0mE0nEsMiNd1 said:
auctions dont sound like a good idea if you ask me, this isnt ebay, but everything else looks like MAJOR improvments
Click to expand...
i agree with that, if you want auctions head over to www.ebay.com

what i like about the hard forums fs/t is that you can look through a lot of items on one page which promotes easy trading. with 1 item per page it may get confusing. also, it will kind of stink having everyone start at 0 feedback, i would like to be able to transfer my heatware to the new [h] fs/t

it will be interisting to see how this works, and i look foward to being able to see it in action
 
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Ok. My opinions, take them as you will:

1. I too think it should be possible to group similar items on a for sale thread (Software, games, memory, etc) to make it easier to browse and create threads.

2. I'm not a big fan of auctions, but I can see the point in having them. Separate section for them maybe?

3. People making offers on something where only the seller can see is BRILLIANT. I LOVE IT :) It's like an auction, but you don't HAVE to sell to the highest offer... you have a choice. :)
 
Some of the ideas sound good however I do not like the thought of an auction forum...

Also excuse my ignorance but why is it that Heat no longer lists [H]
 
SnowPunk98 said:
Some of the ideas sound good however I do not like the thought of an auction forum...

Also excuse my ignorance but why is it that Heat no longer lists [H]
Click to expand...

YHPM
 
people should get 1 verification code through letter, then i'll call them with a 2nd one ;) lolz

i actually suggested the verification system to kyle last night, well actually 3:46am EST time. Having a Confirmed User System would help to weed out bad buyers/sellers to a certain extent, it is much like eBay's ID verify, except they actually ask for your SSN number i think. I do think that a verification system is in order if we do migrate over to this new fs/ft software, it will work better then now because the current search depth isn't as deep as i would want it, and

for example
someone sells a laptop
they only say the specific model number and no keywords like laptop or notebook
how would someone find such a thing at the moment?
this goes for many other items being sold, some people don't include important keywords that make looking for their product easier.
 
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