AMD Crossfire a scam - Almost no benefit over single card

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sonsonate said:
Do you run DSFix? You can force VSYNC in there.
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yeah but

###############################################################################
# The settings below are not yet ready to use!!
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# You can only set either forceFullscreen or forceWindowed (or neither)
# 0 = off, 1 = on
forceWindowed 0
forceFullscreen 0

# turn on/off Vsync
enableVsync 0
# adjust display refresh rate in fullscreen mode - this is NOT linked to FPS!
fullscreenHz 60
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sonsonate said:
enableVsync 0 to enableVsync 1

Works for me...

Or install RivaTuner and get D3D on and run that to force Vsync.
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what's your games for windows live handle? you can PM me if you want it private, nice to find some fellow dark souls players... its easily my favorite game of all time, and that's coming from somebody who spends most of his time playing PvE (i'm awful at PVP unless I'm using pyromancy)
 
GunzofNavarone said:
So Dual Card issues.. that have been going on since the VOODOO2 days are all of a Sudden NEW issues? some of you guys must have just started gaming on the PC with WOW or something
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Had the same setup once upon a time. That is back when SLI meant Scan Line Interleave.

It always seemed to me that Crossfire was never really perfected to work efficiently.
I understand the game developer has to really support it and not just give it lip service.
But Looking at benches over the years it always seem the dual card configs yielded frame rates that just does not seem to justify the added expense. That is a deal breaker in my book.
If you go to the expense of 2 cards, and beefier system to handle it and you are not getting near twice the output you wasted your money. Just by a higher end single card.
 
Reality said:
what's your games for windows live handle? you can PM me if you want it private, nice to find some fellow dark souls players... its easily my favorite game of all time, and that's coming from somebody who spends most of his time playing PvE (i'm awful at PVP unless I'm using pyromancy)
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I kinda stopped playing. I got to the end and burned out I think. GWFL: garekinokami

You'll probably catch me on Dirt3 more often now that I am taking a break from DS
 
Just about anything that I do play on crossfire I make a custom profiles & test crossfire with AFR friendly or default etc till It works the best.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
Had the same setup once upon a time. That is back when SLI meant Scan Line Interleave.

It always seemed to me that Crossfire was never really perfected to work efficiently.
I understand the game developer has to really support it and not just give it lip service.
But Looking at benches over the years it always seem the dual card configs yielded frame rates that just does not seem to justify the added expense. That is a deal breaker in my book.
If you go to the expense of 2 cards, and beefier system to handle it and you are not getting near twice the output you wasted your money. Just by a higher end single card.
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http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1298265&highlight=maxx

THis was a test i had run specificially comparing 3dfx's implimentation vs todays implimentation with AFR.

What was interesting is the Voodoo's Scan Line Interleve (both cards rendering the same frame, just odd vs even lines) produced a 175% increase over single. (its pretty consistant right around that 75% increase for most any games)

Where as the AFR Method using the ATI Rage Fury Maxx and Nvidias 8800GT (at the time) and i came out to a 145% increase in performance (sometimes a litlte more and sometimes a little less)..

after the 8800GT SLI, I decided its just not worth it.. buy the fastest single card and run with it.
 
H-street said:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1298265&highlight=maxx

THis was a test i had run specificially comparing 3dfx's implimentation vs todays implimentation with AFR.

What was interesting is the Voodoo's Scan Line Interleve (both cards rendering the same frame, just odd vs even lines) produced a 175% increase over single. (its pretty consistant right around that 75% increase for most any games)

Where as the AFR Method using the ATI Rage Fury Maxx and Nvidias 8800GT (at the time) and i came out to a 145% increase in performance (sometimes a litlte more and sometimes a little less)..

after the 8800GT SLI, I decided its just not worth it.. buy the fastest single card and run with it.
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Times have changed greatly.

Multigpu scaling is now around that 75-95 % increment over a single card, and frame metering seems to be one of the last wrinkles that needs to be ironed out to ensure that WYSIWYG.

Personally i tend to stay away from multigpu solutions because i saw some fail on the beginning and say "nah, not worth it!" but nowadays with a relatively cheap electricity cost on my area and DX11 being on a mostly stable state i am waiting to see if it becomes a real optimal upgrade path, in other words, i am waiting to see how the frame metering will perform across the board and not just on some new titles.
 
I had a CFX setup (2 4850s) nuke the MBR of my hard drive during a driver update, and nothing but problems after that. Since, I've never even considered a dual gpu setup.
 
mgulbran said:
So you mean your OS or disk controller did something wrong during a driver install? Didn't know driver software controlled disk access.
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Oh this is something I went over in depth when it happened. Something about those launch drivers and CFX was a raging trainwreck, and caused all kinds of problems with people in a similar setup. Mine was not the only MBR to get broken (easily fixed, but scary and hard to diagnose).
 
my only - and short - dual card setup was a pair of unlocked 6950s.

i sold the higher clocking card on ebay (hit 1115 with a basic pot mod) for more than i paid for it... the microstuttering and min fps were either worse or (at best) no better... not worth the power nor the noise...
 
Arcygenical said:
my only - and short - dual card setup was a pair of unlocked 6950s.

i sold the higher clocking card on ebay (hit 1115 with a basic pot mod) for more than i paid for it... the microstuttering and min fps were either worse or (at best) no better... not worth the power nor the noise...
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My experience pretty much echo's this...and ive been saying this for a long time. I got somewhat higher FPS with 2 cards but it just didnt feel anywhere near as fluid compared to 1.
 
exact opposite of my experiences.


I have xfire 5870's, 6950's, 7950's

I dont recall any longlasting issues with fluidity and smoothness. meaning nothing that wasnt solved with a game patch or CAP
 
haunter said:
exact opposite of my experiences.


I have xfire 5870's, 6950's, 7950's

I dont recall any longlasting issues with fluidity and smoothness. meaning nothing that wasnt solved with a game patch or CAP
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Or maybe something you don't notice? I am beginning to think the stuttering is like vsync.. some people notice it and others don't. If you don't... NEVER have someone point it out to you, or
WhatHasBeenSeenCannotBeUnseen-1.jpg
 
Modred189 said:
Or maybe something you don't notice? I am beginning to think the stuttering is like vsync.. some people notice it and others don't. If you don't... NEVER have someone point it out to you
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I don't think so.
Considering we're all human beings, who have developed similar eyes for thousands upon thousands of years, I think the more rational explanation is that it's setup specific. Much like game developers who have to test for a multitude of hardware configurations.
 
Modred189 said:
Or maybe something you don't notice? I am beginning to think the stuttering is like vsync.. some people notice it and others don't. If you don't... NEVER have someone point it out to you, or
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I think that the big thing is that most people don't ever sidegrade. For example when I went from a GTX280 to a 4870x2 I noticed right away that things weren't really smoother in a lot of games. I didn't know at the time that it was due to microstutter. Most people are going to go from one 4870 to a second and of course things are going to look smoother.
 
Modred189 said:
Or maybe something you don't notice? I am beginning to think the stuttering is like vsync.. some people notice it and others don't. If you don't... NEVER have someone point it out to you, or
WhatHasBeenSeenCannotBeUnseen-1.jpg
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I suppose it could be

but Ive see and experienced microstutter before

it was a real issue back with my 4850X2. you literally couldnt play Saints Row 2 on one.

half of that was AMD's fault, the half was that game was vaporwared. no patching to be found :(

the 2 on 1 GPUS were the worst for the issues back when they were new, hell they might be now, I dont buy them anymore, becaues they are either late to the game or bleeding edge super expensive. the 4850X2 was only 300 bucks






I was on 120hz for a while with the 6950 setup, and I think it would have been more noticable since I couldnt do 120 FPS in BF3 on it, but I thought it was smooth, it felt good.
 
It is definately a system-to-system thing. I've seen systems have noticeable Microstutter with one card, and others have extremely smooth gameplay with three. It's definately not a wholesale issue, but it does effect a huge amount of people.
 
This thread reminds me of why I don't venture into the video card section anymore. The soapbox is tame by comparison.

There is an issue, there are work-a-rounds, it is not a scam, because it does really work. Nv being just as fucked up in different ways, past, present, and undoubtedly the future, has nothing to do with this issue on AMD cards. No past, present, or undoubtedly the future, issues with AMD cards has anything to do with Nv's issues.
 
From TechPowerUp's review of the 7990:

In order to overcome the frametime issues some of our colleagues reported, AMD is working on a new driver to improve things, and has provided us with it, but it's only for Windows 8 and sacrifices some performance for more constant frame delivery. We also had no time to test it because our sample had to move on, but I expect AMD will eventually figure out how to solve this card's problems. It does make me wonder why AMD had to release the HD 7990 now instead of waiting just a little bit longer, which would have given them the time to solve the frametime and CrossFire scaling issue and, last but not least, get rid of the coil whine.
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I've bought a 5970 from ATI/AMD, and waited months for driver fixes.

I won't let AMD trick me again. Release the card and the driver at the same time.
Don't let 8 games pacify your common sense.

Solhokuten said:
I had 5870s Xfire. Never noticed any of these issues. :confused:
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You can't notice something until you have Nv cards to make a comparison.

GORANKAR said:
There is an issue, there are work-a-rounds, it is not a scam, because it does really work. Nv being just as fucked up in different ways, past, present, and undoubtedly the future, has nothing to do with this issue on AMD cards. No past, present, or undoubtedly the future, issues with AMD cards has anything to do with Nv's issues.
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Should we just ignore it? People are paying hundreds for a product that's not giving the advertised benefit. So people should suppress their rage, and be understanding and compromising?

Maybe that works for you but other people take their investments more personally.
 
Ohh god, kill me for saying this but... Tom's actually presents the data easier this time with regards to the effectivity of the almost alpha driver.

Things are looking better, but i will still wait to see how it turns out in it's release ready shape.
 
6xxx and 7xxx crossfire works fine for me. I found work a rounds that worked for me. Same as I had to find work a rounds, or play the beta spin the wheel game for Nv hardware in the past. Crossfire does work. It is not a scam anymore than SLI is a scam currently.

If you want to talk about a scam, lets talk about gpu PhysX being locked out, if an AMD card is present. Or how about SLI driver lockouts if a pointless Nv chip set was not present on the mobo. Or there even being such a thing as SLI licensing for motherboard makers in the first place. "I will not be fooled again!" LOL. But none of that has anything to do with the fact that there is an issue, it has work a rounds, and that Crossfire does work.

I hear more screaming than I hear people talking about the fixes. That is their right, so I guess have at it. Though I wonder how many are screaming that don't even have an AMD setup? I even wonder about how many Nv fans are just pretending to, to try and give their screaming weight? I wonder how many are paid shills?
 
GORANKAR said:
I hear more screaming than I hear people talking about the fixes. That is their right, so I guess have at it. Though I wonder how many are screaming that don't even have an AMD setup? I even wonder about how many Nv fans are just pretending to, to try and give their screaming weight? I wonder how many are paid shills?
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The fix is still months away, but they want you to buy now. No thank you. I saw the PCP 7990 Prototype driver video and is a big difference over the current drivers.
Nvidia wouldn't release a "new" card without a functional driver to support it. Only AMD does that, time after time.

But the interesting thing about your statement is that you assume Nv owners weren't at some point ATI/AMD owners.
You don't need a current AMD setup to know what they're about. AMD is FPS on the cheap.

My first 5 video cards were ATI and AMD. After the 6000 series I was fed up and bought a GTX 480 and 570. Haven't looked back since.

For the people who assume they never had an issue with CF, here's an old school sales saying. The customer doesn't know they're in pain until you tell them.
 
WorldExclusive said:
The fix is still months away, but they want you to buy now. No thank you. I saw the PCP 7990 Prototype driver video and is a big difference over the current drivers.
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I don't know... you seem to have said the exact opposite in this thread:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039824612&postcount=83

Something about how the 7990 was a joke?

In this instance, I think you're paying AMD a compliment so you don't seem biased, to cover up your bias.
 
There is always a workaround if you take the damn time to find it, sometimes it does not work perfectly that is a given, but the scaling for crossfire is there for games that do scale, I think this is what That`s Corporate was getting at.

To many complaining and not enough really looking for a solution which there are(90% of the time) Nv crap doesn't stink cause they are oh so perfect, keep dreaming.
 
haunter said:
exact opposite of my experiences.
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Honestly, to each their own. I wish I couldn't notice the stutter - but I also cannot enjoy projected films too well, as the 24fps really, really unnerves me, even with motion blur and the dark cinema viewing room.

The microstutter was immediately noticeable (as I put the card in after gaming for 4hrs, and continued to game for another hour). Skyrim, it was late last year (December or so) so a year after it's initial launch.
 
That's_Corporate said:
I don't know... you seem to have said the exact opposite in this thread:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1039824612&postcount=83

Something about how the 7990 was a joke?

In this instance, I think you're paying AMD a compliment so you don't seem biased, to cover up your bias.
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I'm not paying them a complement for drivers that are still months away. Is the prototype driver better? Yes. Will they sacrifice performance for smoothness? Yes.
They're trying to fix it, but they want you to invest in them now for something we hope works.


Revdarian said:
Fermi with the original drivers.
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Elaborate. You mean them running hot with the driver or two monitors?
If you remember, that was on the review sample drivers, the consumer cards had a driver fix for that.
 
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Nvidia is also a company more or less focused on just GPU development and a much larger staff to handle drivers, AMD does pretty much the whole system not just focused on one thing, they spend less on a lot of things, they simply do not have the manpower or funding to spare on multiple things, they do what they can, it takes longer OMG!

Yes it sucks when any product does not work quite that way it should, but folks should at least realize that things do not get fixed overnight especially when the company producing them is trying not to be buried from lack of funds, AMD has been doing terrific over the last couple of years trying to sort things out,fixing their shortcomings, uphill battle with devs etc. It does take time to do so, I have a feeling things will be changing for the better quite fast for them, they have some new high profile staff added to their rosters, one of them being a very respected graphics dev, bump in the road probably, it happens.

Simply many do injustice for AMD and the community as a whole expecting everything to be perfect all the time, everytime, given things like this take mucho $ and time to make work right, facts are facts, not everyone knows the right answer.

Nvidia may have a specialized part of their drivers or even a specialized circuit on their cards to make things smoother, kudos to them(funny they just talked about this with kepler huh, before this gen they were more focused on raw FPS then AMD is) they also had a team more or less devoted to multi-gpu tech for many years, AMD more or less did not, if you do not think AMD does great job at multi-gpu or when using multi-card configs that it is not as smooth as it should be, then don`t buy them to complain at the issue and fuel to the fire to tell everyone else to avoid them because of this, that's just not right.
 
dragonstongue said:
if you do not think AMD does great job at multi-gpu or when using multi-card configs that it is not as smooth as it should be, then don`t buy them to complain at the issue and fuel to the fire to tell everyone else to avoid them because of this, that's just not right.
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I agree with your post, generally, but this last part... does anyone do this?:confused::confused:
 
http://www.overclock.net/t/788307/fermi-issues-low-gpu-usage-and-bad-company-ii-stuttering
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/531921/single-kepler-micro-stuttering-workaround-/
https://forums.geforce.com/default/...a-kepler-kernel-mode-windows-driver-issues/2/

There is many issues that Nvidia has just the same as AMD, folks just tend to forget it. Seems the high FPS on Kepler cards hurts them as much as it is hurting AMD this go around, all the FCAT things I have seen show at low fps, why is this? Probably cause at low FPS the bus is not being saturated as it should on AMD side and will effect performance whereas on Nvidia stuff it seems the very high fps can take a toll on the bus and cause issues, almost polar opposite from each other, one works best when fully utilized other works better when mostly used.

I think that folks just get pissy about some things, there is plenty of games that CF/SLI work fine at, others they do not, it pays to do lots of reading before jumping into the big $ boat, or things could not work the way you wanted.

There is lots of different drivers out there, in my experience some drivers with some cat files can turn a bothering situation into a good one, provided the user takes time to make it happen, a lot of review sites cannot or do not take the time, and users try once and if it does not work perfectly freak out, sorry but this is likely to happen with EVERY system in one way or another, crap will stink no matter the color :p
 
Revdarian said:
http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=513292&mpage=1

And just like that lots of cases of single card stuttering with the original release drivers for fermi, that is much worse than multi card stuttering.
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hmmm read the comments. Not sufficient evidence from a forum poster.
People will have issues with both camps because each of our PCs are different, but I'm talking about a general issue, like this very CF topic.
For AMD to acknowledge and develop a fix means it's a general issue that most will experience.

The initial Fermi driver made 480s run hot, especially with two monitors. That's a general issue that needed to be addressed asap and they did, right before launch.
AMD on the other launches a card and better drivers come months later. It happened with the 7970s and now it's happening again with the 7990.

Nvidia's $1000 cards came with drivers to deliver performance and experience as advertised. AMD releases a $1000 with a promise it will be better sometime in the Summer. No date exactly though.
 
You know what? looking for Nvidia Stuttering i found something newer:

680 had a stuttering issue that Nvidia had to address directly.
http://www.techpowerup.com/166316/NVIDIA-Responds-to-Reports-of-Kepler-V-Sync-Stuttering-Issue.html

Remember that their special Vsync was one of the main selling points of the 680, but it didn't work.

But yeah on the original fermi the stuttering was an issue with bad power management modes and something else causing massively high spikes of dpc latency.

edit to add:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/...e-deleted-vsync-stutter-discussi/?offset=2075 not wholly fixed yet apparently.
 
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I just sold my GTX 680 FTW 4GB, which is a $569 card.

I just bought 2 7950s, which are $540 AR - $80 in game codes.

I can tell you that 2 7950s provide a better in game experience in 6040x1200 BF3, 6040x1200 Metro 2033, and 6040x1200 Dirt 3 than a single 680 FTW 4GB. I can run higher settings in all 3 games.

And that's without getting RadeonPro up and running yet.

They are 20 fps better at 1920x1200 Unigine Valley all maxed.

They support switchable Eyefinity profiles (from extended to grouped with a hotkey).

The only game that is worse is Fallout : NV, which is a Gamebryo engine game that is notorious for not working correctly on AMD and won't ever be fixed.
 
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