You just gotta be aware that they did the same thing with Windows piracy until they didn't.Microsoft is fully aware of all the people running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware and they turn a blind-eye on purpose.
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You just gotta be aware that they did the same thing with Windows piracy until they didn't.Microsoft is fully aware of all the people running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware and they turn a blind-eye on purpose.
Me too. I'm in OT cybersecurity.
Laptops come to mind since you can't upgrade their GPU's. How many people are using Core2Duo's on a desktop in 2023? It's all laptops for me.That's interesting, but on any system where that sort of 3D acceleration is actually needed, I wouldn't be setting it up using the integrated Intel graphics. Especially since you can buy used Quadro and FirePro cards for like $15.
Depends on what you do. You do for certain CAD programs. I learned that Pronterface the 3D printing software is running OpenGL. Do you really want to run into those situations where you can't use OpenGL applications because Windows 10/11?You don't need OpenGL to use Office, browse the web, and check your email, which is what most of these older systems get used for.
Cumulative updates for sure, but how many of those machines you think won't auto update or maybe the user would update and not know they could be breaking their machine?I do believe that at some point there will be a future version of Windows that will no longer work on some or most older hardware. But that would almost certainly occur via a yearly feature update (or maybe not until 12), not a security update or monthly cumulative update. Each yearly feature update is supported for 2 years with security updates. That means that even if 23H2 is the last version of 11 that works on old hardware, you'll still be getting security updates just as long as you would with 10 (until October 2025). So there is no longer any potential advantage to staying on 10 in terms of support.
The difference here is that Windows 11 forcing TPM2.0 and Secure boot is meant to help push developers to use the Windows Store so that when users look to buy software then it's the Microsoft Store. If the transition to the Microsoft Store is slow because developers can't depend on Microsoft's DRM to work properly on Core2Duo's then Microsoft could tighten the leash and release a cumulative update that breaks 11 for older machines.Microsoft is fully aware of all the people running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware and they turn a blind-eye on purpose. They certainly could lock things down further if they wanted to, but they didn't, and almost certainly won't, because they would gain nothing. It's them walking a tight line between trying to make Windows 11 a more secure platform by limiting it to secure hardware in most cases while also allowing more advanced users to do what they want to. They know that while the less advanced users certainly outnumber the more advanced users, the more advanced users also tend to be "influencers" for those less advanced users. The last thing Microsoft wants to do is piss them off. Same reason why Microsoft continues/continued to allow free upgrades from 7/8/8.1 for 7 years after the free upgrade offer officially ended.
Those are barely QOL changes in my opinion. There are more annoying new things in Windows 11 than it tries to solve like the right click menu.I thought that I gave a pretty good list in my previous post, but that list is hardly comprehensive.
If you pay attention to botnet propagation and DDoS attacks then Win 8 and below are the primary sources they are coming from. Does it do anything to the home user not really but they could, but it’s a bitch of a problem for the rest of us.I'm curious because a lot of people likes to fearmonger about this, but do we have widespread examples where running W7 after EOL was the cause of security problems for a home user? This seems very much like the meltdown/spectre insanity where everyone was running around like headless chicken, while screaming doomsday and apocalypse now, but nobody could actually show a scenario where a home user could be compromised as a result of either vulnerability.
It's also very strange to me that while claiming that patches are critical you also claim that having a firewall in front of a system doesn't matter. Dude first has to get through the firewall to be able to exploit any vulnerability in the OS, and if dude gets through your firewall into your internal network you are already hosed anyway. And if the user willingly runs malicious software on their computer then having an EOL OS is not a prerequisite to be compromised. The only scenario where it would matter, is when the attacker already has a foot in, either by breaking through the firewall or by having the user run malicious software. Then he might be able to compromise other unpatched systems on the network.
I have active Win 95 machines, no Nic of any sort, it’s a box plugged into a serial cable plugged into a scale for weighing trucks. A few XP Embedded machines that run diagnostic software for boilers it uses an Ethernet connection to the boiler but it’s a crossover cable with a static IP completely different from the rest of the network so can’t route to it through the IP interface on the boiler.I'm talking about actual air gaps.
Either the machine has no Ethernet cable plugged into it (and no wifi drivers installed or wifi disabled in bios) or the switch it is plugged into is physically disconnected from any network that has Internet access. No VLAN tomfoolery, or machines connected to both networks.
We are talking completely physically separated from any network that touches the internet.
But the whole point here is do they meet the Windows 11 hardware requirements? The don't so they're kind of irrelevant in regards to Windows 11 uptake.Refurbs from Dell can be had that cheaply ($100 to 150) from time to time, that are nice enough. Check slickdeals.
Windows 11 for businesses is a straight upgrade over 10 IF you are using O365 and Intune. And definitely better if you are using encryption on the local machines and network shares. But if you are using a hybrid AD/Exchange environment with O365 then it’s a toss up, but 11 doesn’t take the performance hit 10 does when decrypting content, 10 has a noticeable lag when doing it.Business seldom go to the latest and greatest and will wait till the last minute to move off Windows 10, we know this, and those of us in IT, know this. Heck, I have clients who are still running Windows 10 21H2 because they dont want to push out 22H2 yet..."just incase"
I do agree, unless you use something specific in Windows 11, why change. And then of course hardware support, when companies evegreen into new gear, which I see more are moving away from the standard 3 year periods to 5 years, or even more, realising hardware is fast enough, and if a device dies, then you replace it...
Sure straight upgrade OS wise, but think about the end user, you change the UI, you change where some things are, somethings are gone..Windows 11 for businesses is a straight upgrade over 10 IF you are using O365 and Intune. And definitely better if you are using encryption on the local machines and network shares. But if you are using a hybrid AD/Exchange environment with O365 then it’s a toss up, but 11 doesn’t take the performance hit 10 does when decrypting content, 10 has a noticeable lag when doing it.
Yes - the whole fact that Windows 11 adoption hasn't caught fire is almost by design. Even processors that are a few years old are not even eligible to run Windows 11. They're moving into the new era of software/hardware synchronization and as we have seen it is not all good for the user.But the whole point here is do they meet the Windows 11 hardware requirements? The don't so they're kind of irrelevant in regards to Windows 11 uptake.
I was on my 4790k machine until last year. Since I watercool (help), I tend to not fiddle with one component upgrades and just wait till I want to build a new computer. Well I was first thinking about it around 2018-2019 (as the 4790k/980 was from 2014-2015), but then was disgusted at the Turing prices, so I waited. 2020 came around and I thought a 3080 looked great and I would give AMD's Zen 3 a try. Well we all know how that all went lol. I eventually got a second hand 3080 Ti once prices came down. 3090 wasn't going to fit in my current case with a waterblock on it. So really at this stage just going to wait out a completely new build again maybe in 2025 because likely I'll need a new case too.Someones used 8 year old computer? Doesnt seem like too many peoples upgrade path. i could find more use out of a couple raspberry pi's
What do you mean pay attention? Cursory internet search did not turn up any statistic on the composition of botnets, so if you had a source for that, that would be good. All I could find is one site claiming that recently botnets are mostly made up of IoT devices.If you pay attention to botnet propagation and DDoS attacks then Win 8 and below are the primary sources they are coming from. Does it do anything to the home user not really but they could, but it’s a bitch of a problem for the rest of us.
Like I said, don't need OpenGL for Office, Email, and Web Browsing.Laptops come to mind since you can't upgrade their GPU's.
None that I know of. Like I said, all of those systems that I refurbish have Core2Quad CPUs in them by the time I'm done with them. You do know that not all Core2 CPUs were Core2Duo CPUs, right?How many people are using Core2Duo's on a desktop in 2023?
3D printing software? lol. These aren't the people who I'm refurbishing 15 year old computers for, it's just people in offices who want to hold onto their old hardware because they don't need anything more to use Microsoft Word and Outlook. I do newer systems too obviously and I'm happy to set them up with one.Depends on what you do. You do for certain CAD programs. I learned that Pronterface the 3D printing software is running OpenGL. Do you really want to run into those situations where you can't use OpenGL applications because Windows 10/11?
Feature Updates don't install automatically on unsupported hardware and Cumulative Updates don't include those kinds of changes. Even if they did, we'd see it coming a mile away on the insider channels starting about a year ahead of time.Cumulative updates for sure, but how many of those machines you think won't auto update or maybe the user would update and not know they could be breaking their machine?
That's quite the paranoid delusion, not really worthy of a long response. As I mentioned, any update will go through 4 different insider channels over the course of a year or more before it ever hits a release build. It won't be Dr. Evil flipping a switch and catching people by surprise. Those Core2Duos must have made quite an impression on you as you seem to think that they represent all Core2-era CPUs. I guess you were too poor to afford a Core2Quad.The difference here is that Windows 11 forcing TPM2.0 and Secure boot is meant to help push developers to use the Windows Store so that when users look to buy software then it's the Microsoft Store. If the transition to the Microsoft Store is slow because developers can't depend on Microsoft's DRM to work properly on Core2Duo's then Microsoft could tighten the leash and release a cumulative update that breaks 11 for older machines.
Anyone who actually uses Auto-HDR knows how awesome it is. It really does make games look better on an HDR monitor even if that game does not have native HDR support. Flexible Multipath SMB is really great for file transfers especially since even a Laptop will usually have both Ethernet and WiFi. Quick search, even with a dozen or more mapped network drives, can save a ton of time.Those are barely QOL changes in my opinion. There are more annoying new things in Windows 11 than it tries to solve like the right click menu.
Pay attention isn’t quite the right word, but the most common malware sets out there like Chaos, Zerobot, and Mirai variants will walk all over 8 and below which are still susceptible to drive by infections unless you are using a 3’rd party protection set that is actually updating itself still for those OS’s which most have dropped support for.What do you mean pay attention? Cursory internet search did not turn up any statistic on the composition of botnets, so if you had a source for that, that would be good. All I could find is one site claiming that recently botnets are mostly made up of IoT devices.
You can easily block updates via modern management tools.Cumulative updates for sure, but how many of those machines you think won't auto update or maybe the user would update and not know they could be breaking their machine?
8 was garbage, but 8.1 was amazing.If you thought 8 was fine or good.. please turn in your [H] card upon exiting the forum.
For that narrow set of applications, sure. For most other people, it could become a problem at some point. You said it's easy to install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, but that's not most people is it?Like I said, don't need OpenGL for Office, Email, and Web Browsing.
Again, this is about the lack of adoption of Windows 11. For you it's fine, but for most people it could be a problem. You want to play Minecraft or Roblox which could run on an old Intel GPU, then too bad. Pronterface could run on a potato but it won't work on Windows10/11 with no OpenGL. Ultimaker Cura which is a 3D printing slicer also needs OpenGL.3D printing software? lol. These aren't the people who I'm refurbishing 15 year old computers for, it's just people in offices who want to hold onto their old hardware because they don't need anything more to use Microsoft Word and Outlook. I do newer systems too obviously and I'm happy to set them up with one.
You don't know with Microsoft who has a history of pushing for updates without you knowing. Also unless you make it a policy that prevents users from running Windows update, they might just do it on their own because they think it might make the PC faster or fixes the crashing they experience.Feature Updates don't install automatically on unsupported hardware and Cumulative Updates don't include those kinds of changes. Even if they did, we'd see it coming a mile away on the insider channels starting about a year ahead of time.
How many users you think could actually benefit from those features? For new hardware users this might make sense, but if you're using older hardware then why? Even TPM2.0 and Secure boot don't seem to have any benefit to users, but Microsoft still pushes for it. Even you agree, because you seem to be putting Windows 11 on systems that clearly can't use TPM2.0.Anyone who actually uses Auto-HDR knows how awesome it is. It really does make games look better on an HDR monitor even if that game does not have native HDR support. Flexible Multipath SMB is really great for file transfers especially since even a Laptop will usually have both Ethernet and WiFi. Quick search, even with a dozen or more mapped network drives, can save a ton of time.
I can think of a few things off the top of my head.And what more are you expecting out of your OS besides QoL changes? Are you expecting it to give you a blowjob?
Anyone who has been using the same computer for 10+ years is probably already pretty acquainted with what they are using it for.For that narrow set of applications, sure. For most other people, it could become a problem at some point.
Anyone who can change a tire on their car could Install 11 on unsupported hardware if they actually tried. Granted, some people are too stupid to change a tire.You said it's easy to install Windows 11 on unsupported hardware, but that's not most people is it?
You already said that this OpenGL issue affects both Windows 10 and 11 so it sounds like your gripe is more with Intel for not providing a good driver than with Microsoft. How is it even related to Windows 11 adoption at all?Again, this is about the lack of adoption of Windows 11. For you it's fine, but for most people it could be a problem. You want to play Minecraft or Roblox which could run on an old Intel GPU, then too bad. Pronterface could run on a potato but it won't work on Windows10/11 with no OpenGL. Ultimaker Cura which is a 3D printing slicer also needs OpenGL.
Again, any "update" that Microsoft would "push" would be showing up on the insider channels up to a year before it ever showed up on a release build. I know that you are desperate to believe that Microsoft is going to hit some imaginary kill switch and surprise everyone, but that's just not how it works.You don't know with Microsoft who has a history of pushing for updates without you knowing. Also unless you make it a policy that prevents users from running Windows update, they might just do it on their own because they think it might make the PC faster or fixes the crashing they experience.
"Old hardware" covers a very wide range of devices. HDR isn't exactly rare or limited to expensive monitors these days. My backup system with an overclocked 5820k, paired with my old RTX 2080 is still fully capable of playing games. Even my HTPC with a Sandy-Bridge Xeon and a GTX 1060 can play most games and Auto-HDR works great with my HDTV. And there is nothing about wanting faster network transfers and faster searches that is limited to new hardware.How many users you think could actually benefit from those features? For new hardware users this might make sense, but if you're using older hardware then why?
It's a nice option to have for things like Bitlocker. I never said that I agree with the requirments, but I do understand why they did it.Even TPM2.0 and Secure boot don't seem to have any benefit to users, but Microsoft still pushes for it.
For that narrow set of applications, sure. For most other people, it could become a problem at some point.
I know more people who own PC’s for the exclusive fact they need something to run TurboTax on than I am comfortable with…To be fair, I think web/email/Ms Office is all the overwhelming majority of PC owners ever use their computers for.
We sometimes forget how small of a minority we enthusiasts really are in the grand scheme of things.
Windows 10 still utterly dominates the desktop PC operating system market, despite Windows 11 having been around for 2 years now...and there's not much sign of this changing any time soon
the latest figures suggest people, as individuals and as a business, really aren't into Windows 11 at all...with the numbers now updated for September 2023, we can see the global uptake of Microsoft's latest operating system has been stagnant since April 2023, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that this will change
Not only that, but the market share paints a dismal picture: 71% for Win10, just 24% for Win11, and 3% for Win7 (with the rest being XP, 8.1, and so on)...the figure for Windows 10 has barely changed in twelve months and it's only the decline of Windows 7 that has benefited the newest version...
https://www.pcgamer.com/two-years-a...1-adoption-is-still-waaaay-behind-windows-10/
Yeah Auto-HDR and SMB3 Multichannel (allowing 2 Gb transfers between my NAS and PC) have been big QoL improvements here for me
Also the HDR calibration app (Win 11 only I think?)
I know more people who own PC’s for the exclusive fact they need something to run TurboTax on than I am comfortable with…
8 was garbage, but 8.1 was amazing.
Nah you need the PC version if you want the actual forms, the web version gives you access to the entry screens but not the base forms themselves.Why, would you rather they run Turbotax on their 6 inch screen Android or iPhones?
Acquainted enough that they won't switch to the newest version of Windows. I know I hate it when UI changes move stuff around, which forces me to hunt for things that used to be more accessible.Anyone who has been using the same computer for 10+ years is probably already pretty acquainted with what they are using it for.
You over estimate how many people can change a tire.Anyone who can change a tire on their car could Install 11 on unsupported hardware if they actually tried. Granted, some people are too stupid to change a tire.
If you were the end user, do you care who's fault it is? You probably just want it working. The issue is explained right here, and maybe offers a solution. None of the solutions they offered seem to be good. I myself had issues with my old sound card as well since I still use my Xonar Sound card. UniXonar used to work for a while, but enough Windows 10 updates ended up breaking the drivers and causing stability issues. Funny enough, not an issue with Linux Mint.You already said that this OpenGL issue affects both Windows 10 and 11 so it sounds like your gripe is more with Intel for not providing a good driver than with Microsoft. How is it even related to Windows 11 adoption at all?
thought upnp was for outgoing connections
The scenario you are describing still includes the user downloading malicious code on their own volition, which can happen on any system not just an EOL windows.
I'm curious because a lot of people likes to fearmonger about this, but do we have widespread examples where running W7 after EOL was the cause of security problems for a home user? This seems very much like the meltdown/spectre insanity where everyone was running around like headless chicken, while screaming doomsday and apocalypse now, but nobody could actually show a scenario where a home user could be compromised as a result of either vulnerability.
It's also very strange to me that while claiming that patches are critical you also claim that having a firewall in front of a system doesn't matter. Dude first has to get through the firewall to be able to exploit any vulnerability in the OS, and if dude gets through your firewall into your internal network you are already hosed anyway. And if the user willingly runs malicious software on their computer then having an EOL OS is not a prerequisite to be compromised. The only scenario where it would matter, is when the attacker already has a foot in, either by breaking through the firewall or by having the user run malicious software. Then he might be able to compromise other unpatched systems on the network.
In many cases these people are upgrading from 7 so their UI is changing no matter what. In that scenario, given the choice between 10 or 11 (with risks explained), most choose 11. Even among those who are already on 10 many are enthusiastic about upgrading to an OS that is the same OS you see on most new computers. If I move the start menu over to the left instead of the center, most don't even see much of a difference.Acquainted enough that they won't switch to the newest version of Windows. I know I hate it when UI changes move stuff around, which forces me to hunt for things that used to be more accessible.
It's almost like you totally forgot about what we were talking about? If the best example of a potential issue with Windows 11 driver support is an issue that effects both 10 and 11, then I think that says a lot about Windows 11 driver support. Windows 10 came out in 2015 when a lot of "old" computers weren't nearly as "old".If you were the end user, do you care who's fault it is?
They do actually and should... Apple got nailed couple years back when they themselves claimed users should have at least 2 AV products installed, they tried to sell it as "only to stop transferring of viruses for windows systems" crap, then they removed the entry from their knowledgebase.
- Safely operate without antivirus? Android, GNU/Linux, iOS, Mac OSX all don't need anti-virus.
At this stage the best practice for network security is to keep it the hell off your network. Run a zero trust network from the get go, assume everything is compromised and do your darnedest to keep your sensitive data from getting out and your backups hidden.They do actually and should... Apple got nailed couple years back when they themselves claimed users should have at least 2 AV products installed, they tried to sell it as "only to stop transferring of viruses for windows systems" crap, then they removed the entry from their knowledgebase.
You are aware of what is going around these days on Android, iOS, Linux and macOS? They are all susceptible. How many rush patches has Apple been pushing out in iOS 16 and now 3 patches for iOS 17 already since it launched?
Mind you, most AV like defender is easily defeated with the right methods, but still, no OS is safe alone with out some form of protections these days. The difference these days is, people get infected, but do not even know it...because that is the goal for most end users. Even corporate targets, malicious actors are moving away from encrypting what they access and simply moving to data exfiltration, and extortion. The average exploited company, has someone in their infra for around 2 years were the last numbers, before they are found in some way..
At this stage the best practice for network security is to keep it the hell off your network. Run a zero trust network from the get go, assume everything is compromised and do your darnedest to keep your sensitive data from getting out and your backups hidden.
iOS is the big target all the baddies have their eyes on because that’s what is in most corporate environments, and that’s where the money goes. 30% of the smartphone market but 70% of the revenue, credit cards galore. And they are in the board rooms, they are connected to the CEO’s and CFO’s email, they have the saved passwords they are the gilded piggybanks the hackers want. So a crapload of resources are poured in to finding those holes in iOS, I would be far more worried about a lack of frequent patches for iOS, than weekly ones.
But 2 years is an exaggeration, it’s closer to 5 weeks, you would need one hell of a bad patching policy and a complete lack of reviews for something to be floating around longer than that unless they are exploiting something completely unknown. Much longer than that requires somebody actively working on the inside which does happen in major corporate espionage stuff but that’s bond movie level hijinks.
If you get infected day 2 but day 5 a patch comes along that renders it ineffective and it sits impotent on a machine for another 195 days before being discovered was the system compromised for 200 days or for 3?Agree, assume all is comprimised. Checking, the numbers had dropped, on average, but still upwards of 200 days years back.
https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/hackers-spend-over-200-days-inside
But, also noted as being on the rise, but far lower numbers and depends on industry, and these are only ones known and found.
https://news.sophos.com/en-us/2022/06/07/active-adversary-playbook-2022/
Perhaps their 200 days quotes were from systems they found things on, but the Malicious actor forgot all about them
I am sure you know, there are plenty of bad patching policies out there in companies massive and tiny, that do not even patch because their boomer IT person thinks patching is bad and the Windows XP box they use for Day to day work is still fine cause Windows [insert version] sucks! I mean, we see it when a 0-day is released, and weeks and months or a year later, news comes along about a company being comprimised, via an exploit, that was patched a year ago (think Cisco, Fortinet perimeter devices)
8 was garbage, but 8.1 was amazing.
You have to allow the port for outgoing connections. Up till recently I've been running a firewall with no upnp where I manually had to open each port regardless of it being outgoing or incoming.You don't forward ports for outgoing connections.
But all those exploits and vulnerabilities are predicated on the offending code running on the local computer. The only difference between an up to date system and one that has not been updated is the number of exploits that might work on it. Since there are thousands of day 0 exploits that aren't patched even on the most up to date systems, the risk is still there. And the most important thing is for the user to be able to identify malicious code before running it. If that is given the risk of running an older system is only minimally higher than running the latest version of Windows 11.My example was one of tens of thousands of exploits being released each week under Windows, making use of vulnerabilities under Windows as an OS, vulnerabilities that are patched all the time. Should you choose to run a modded "Windows 10 Lite", or a modded "Windows 11 lite" or Windows 8 or Windows 7 - You undoubtedly open yourself up to increased risk of such exploits as certain patches are stripped away for increased performance, or certain operating systems didn't receive the patch in the first place.