Wondering about something power efficient $150-200-ish -- should I upgrade my GTX460?

[Nazo]

EDIT: Old thread. I now have a card and am very happy with it.

 

[Dangman]

Long post but you're still missing information:
1) What are the specs of your PC right now? I.e CPU, mobo, RAM, etc.
2) What PSU do you have? (in case you missed that in #1)
3) What's the max resolution of your monitor?
4) What games are you planning on playing?

 

[Nazo]

1) What are the specs of your PC right now? I.e CPU, mobo, RAM, etc.

Why is this applicable? It's modern. I don't want to get into the specifics because I don't want arguments about how CPU limited I might be or people claiming I don't have enough RAM or etc. The fact of the matter is, I'm asking what I could upgrade if I'm looking solely at the videocard. One component at a time. Actually, I'm pretty happy about the other components and won't be changing them any time soon -- even if someone does try to start an argument saying that I must or I'll die horribly. Well, I assume that it's a given since I'm talking about upgrading a GTX460, but just in case if it needs to be made clear, yes, it's a modern PCI-Express system.

2) What PSU do you have? (in case you missed that in #1)

Well, that's the thing. If the PSU's specifics are needed, then it's probably not a card I want. Again, efficiency matters to me. If a PSU that can handle a GTX460 can't handle the upgraded card, it's a downgrade for my purposes because that would mean it's considerably worse than this card is at power usage. Therefore your answer is: a PSU that can handle a GTX460.

3) What's the max resolution of your monitor?

Ah, this I'll allow has some value at least. It's 1920x1080. I don't usually go nuts with FSAA and etc, but I do prefer to have at least light FSAA (2x generally, rarely 4x in some games where I can pull it off as 2x still looks a bit stair-stepped to me.) It would be nice if I could use a more complex FSAA method as well, but if I can just pull off the basic 2x (and not that blur shader!) then it's usually fine.

4) What games are you planning on playing?

I'm not really planning on any specifics. I play almost all types. RPG, FPS, MMO, and so on. I'm not a big fan of most of the latest stuff, but every once in a while one I really want slips through and I want to at least not be held too far back.

 

[xoleras]

Might be worth waiting to see how the GTX 750ti turns out on the 18th - the latest news post at videocardz.com indicates that it will have a 60W TDP and match the GTX 480 in performance. For a 60W part that is pretty impressive, IMO..It's getting 3000 in firestrike which is nearly exactly what a GTX 480 stock gets. Not sure on pricing. Also in that price range if you want something now, you might be able to find a 7850, which is also similar the GTX 480 in performance with a 130W TDP. Highly overclockable as well, which is beneficial if you're into that. I've actually heard of 7850s OC'ing insanely well, I have no direct experience though. There's also the 260X which is roughly around the 7790 range, and the 270X which is probably around the 7870. That (270X) is supposed to be a 200$ card, but miners are price inflating it. Still, the 270X is a great card for 200$ - just don't pay more than 200$ for it. I'm not sure what the 270 equates to (7850? Not sure...) but it should be sub 200$. I'm just not sure of the relative price/perf.

If anything, like mentioned, it may be worth waiting for the GTX 750ti - just to see if it causes price adjustments on the AMD side, if you're wanting to go AMD. Also it seems to perform really well for a 60W TDP, but those are rumors of course. On the NV side for now, the sub 200$ level has the GTX 660, 650ti boost and 650. The 660 is about 200$ which is probably too much (it actually is definitely too much now that I think of it), but the 650ti boost is a pretty amazing card given the intended price. Only problem is, it's nearly impossible to find. I suspect it was discontinued for the upcoming 750ti.

edit: Oh yeah, the videocardz article is here: http://videocardz.com/49557/exclusive-nvidia-maxwell-gm107-architecture-unveiled

Supposedly "big" Maxwell is going to be 20nm later this year.

 

[Dangman]

Why is this applicable? It's modern. I don't want to get into the specifics because I don't want arguments about how CPU limited I might be or people claiming I don't have enough RAM or etc. The fact of the matter is, I'm asking what I could upgrade if I'm looking solely at the videocard. One component at a time. Actually, I'm pretty happy about the other components and won't be changing them any time soon -- even if someone does try to start an argument saying that I must or I'll die horribly. Well, I assume that it's a given since I'm talking about upgrading a GTX460, but just in case if it needs to be made clear, yes, it's a modern PCI-Express system.

That doesn't really answer my question though. Yes the CPU limitation argument is the main reason why I'm asking that question. No point in upgrading the GPU if you're still on a C2D based system (technically a "modern" PCI-E system)

Well, that's the thing. If the PSU's specifics are needed, then it's probably not a card I want. Again, efficiency matters to me. If a PSU that can handle a GTX460 can't handle the upgraded card, it's a downgrade for my purposes because that would mean it's considerably worse than this card is at power usage. Therefore your answer is: a PSU that can handle a GTX460.

I'm mainly asking to make sure that PSU is actually of good quality. Yes we could recommend a card that uses a similar amount of power as your GTX 460 but that doesn't mean you should upgrade to a new card if you're just going to pair it with a crappy PSU. Nor would it necessarily mean that card would be the right recommendation if your PSU could indeed handle a lot more than a GTX 460 in terms of power.

Unless you're gaming for 24/7, most of the time the GPU is going to be idle. A good number of GPUs these days have idle power close to the GTX 460. It's the load power where they're dramatically different.

Ah, this I'll allow has some value at least. It's 1920x1080. I don't usually go nuts with FSAA and etc, but I do prefer to have at least light FSAA (2x generally, rarely 4x in some games where I can pull it off as 2x still looks a bit stair-stepped to me.) It would be nice if I could use a more complex FSAA method as well, but if I can just pull off the basic 2x (and not that blur shader!) then it's usually fine.

I'm not really planning on any specifics. I play almost all types. RPG, FPS, MMO, and so on. I'm not a big fan of most of the latest stuff, but every once in a while one I really want slips through and I want to at least not be held too far back.

Hmm...not exactly concrete as different games have different hardware requirements. I.e the hardware requirements for Skyrim is going to be a tad different from something like the COD series. What was the last latest game you've wanted to play or plan on playing or are playing right now?

 

[Nazo]

EVERY time I ask questions on [H] and provide as much detail as possible -- including things I think shouldn't be necessary like hardware specs -- someone starts a fight about why I'm wrong to go the direction I'm going or etc. I'm just looking at the videocard, nothing else. The CPU, PSU, and etc are sufficient and I won't waste any time arguing about them which is why I didn't bring them up. Normally I do and end up wasting weeks. As it is, I'm still wasting some time even saying that it shouldn't be necessary. I'm looking only at the videocard in this discussion. I will say no more on that.

As for what games, the point is I should be able to play just about anything. Not on max detail setting by far -- and I won't be touching most of those types of games that go overboard like the upcoming (or is it out now?) CoD release -- but playable with tolerable quality settings.

Might be worth waiting to see how the GTX 750ti turns out on the 18th - the latest news post at videocardz.com indicates that it will have a 60W TDP and match the GTX 480 in performance. For a 60W part that is pretty impressive, IMO..It's getting 3000 in firestrike which is nearly exactly what a GTX 480 stock gets

I like the sound of that GTX750ti if it really does deliver on that. I'm not in a big rush right now and while I don't want to wait months and months, I can definitely wait to the 18th easily. As it's a 750, I would imagine it is newer tech and any features they might be implementing in newer cards (probably all small stuff, but you never know -- especially with OpenGL) should be present. I'm not looking for anything special in that respect, but sometimes it's the difference between a particular game implementing some minor function running a lot better, so it's nice to go that way if I can. Well, this begs the question of pricing, but its model number implies this sort of pricerange I think.

 

[dragonstongue]

Nvidia is more power efficent at this point overall for the 600 and 700 series however AMD is still extremely competitive in regards to performance, temperatures, features, pricing etc. They really are a toss up from top to bottom of the pricing structure.

the questions he asked you do matter, if the cpu is not powerfull enough to take advantage of the graphics card in question your wasting $ in regards to that it might be a potential bottleneck and so forth its a simple answer. Just as an example, an Athlon II will be a huge bottleneck for a high end card in virtually all cases, that being said $150-$200 this is kind of doubtful.

the power supply is a factor at least to a point you have a very good concept there in that a 460 is fairly power hungry and the ones that replaced it being 560-660-760(or above and competing Radeons) are/should be more then capable of using the same power supply and have ~2x+ perofrmanceBUT it still is a valid question really, just humor him he does this for a living

750Ti would be a bump possibly but there will almost certainly be much better $/performance cards then that.

My personal pick period is AMD, I support them as best I can even though right now their prices are above MSRP for sure. 7850/7870/260/260x are all great for 1080p performance (preferably the custom cooled ones). Nvidia wise 660Ti/760 and so forth for the $/performance.

 

[xoleras]

the power supply is a factor at least to a point you have a very good concept there in that a 460 is fairly power hungry and the ones that replaced it being 560-660-760 are/should be more then capable of using the same power supply BUT it still is a valid question really, just humor him he does this for a living

What are you even talking about?

I don't think the 460 was ever power hungry. It was a 150W TDP part from 2009, so it really isn't a stretch to go from a 150W TDP part to a sub 200$ less than 150W TDP part. If his current card is a 150W TDP, then going to a 7870, GTX 650ti, GTX 750ti, or ANYTHING ELSE with a similar TDP will be a non issue. You do understand that for his budget, literally everything at that price level has a lower than 150W TDP. At least, most of them. Perhaps some of the AMD cards are higher, I don't know. I do know the 7850 is a 130W TDP. The GTX 660 is a 140W TDP. I can't see anything in his price range using more power than his 460, there is no need for a new PSU.

My personal pick period is AMD, I support them as best I can even though right now their prices are above MSRP for sure. .

You'll buy AMD to "support" them despite their prices being retarded? Am I getting this right? You should just get the product you feel is best for the price regardless of what company produces it - whether that is intel, nvidia, or whoever. That's how the free market works. Supporting a company just because you feel pity for them is pretty nonsensical and silly. And i'm not sure if that category applies to you, but I've seen more than one AMD fan with this mindset. I really don't understand it.

I'm not saying they don't have great sub 200$ options for GPUs - They definitely do, as I mentioned in my post above this one. In fact, their sub 200$ offerings are more compelling for price/perf than NV for the time being, at least until the 750ti launches. But this attitude of supporting them out of pity which i've seen some people do - particularly their CPUs which are generally inferior - I don't get it.

 

[dragonstongue]

I support them IMHO because I have free choice to do so, Nvidia have sold me personally shoddy products and they go out of their way to screw people over, you have your opinions I have mine, leave it at that.

I do not feel pity for them whatsoever, I do however despise NV for their actions over the years, does that stop me from saying one should not get NV no, I said MY PERSONAL PICK.

150w TDP does not mean the card can and will never go above 150w. Depending on if he has a 460 1gb, 460 768 or 460SE etc. http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/07/12/nvidia_geforce_gtx_460_review/8#.UvxPKZqPIgc

stated system draw without gpu 148w with stock 460 1gb 342w = 194w overclocked of course is more, am I missing something here?

and FYI I did not say go out and buy this or your a moron, I said even though prices are above MSRP hey guess what Nvidia and Intel have been doing that far far longer then AMD cause they didn't have competition, either way does not matter, you want to pick apart what I say feel free, but do not misuse my wording thanks.

 

[Nazo]

Ok, I'll say one last thing regarding the other components then. The CPU is not the best of the best, but it is decent and I'm happy with it. It's also the easiest component for me to upgrade (relatively new socket type, so easy upgrade leeway.) So IF it bottlenecks me, I can upgrade it in the future. Same goes for the other components. Oh, and the PSU I believe has some leeway, but I'm definitely not going into specifics there because the next thing I know someone will be telling me that using less than a 1kW PSU is no longer sufficient in this day and age (and it really is quality, not quantity that matters so long as it's not one of those dinky little low profile PSUs.) Again though, as with the other components, if it bottlenecks me, it can be upgraded in the future. Though, as xoleras has so eloquently pointed out, any videocard in the sorts of ranges I'm looking at should be easier on the PSU if anything (also, you forgot that I was saying I want it to be power efficient even though I've said it multiple times. I do NOT want to maximize what this PSU is capable of handling.) So the whole purpose here is to look at just the videocard. Other components can be dealt with separately. Besides, let's say I went with that idea and did pick a videocard based on the maximum I'd theoretically get out of some particular setup. Then if I upgrade the other components, the videocard is going to be holding me back just as much as the other components, thus just switching the bottleneck from one part to another. Isn't it better to ensure that there are as few bottlenecks as possible?

Now, can we focus on videocards?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to say earlier. I used to overclock once upon a time, but over the years I've decided that the yields were just far too low (outside of benchmarks) for all of the extra power, strain on components, heat, and so on to deal with. As such, I'm focusing on keeping things that do really well stock out of the box with lasting power thus not needing overclocking. Of course, costs (and, as I mentioned, the desire to keep good power efficiency) do hold me back, so I have to focus on bang for the buck as well.

 

[xoleras]

TDP isn't power consumption, that's what you're missing, dragons. The point remains. If his 150W TDP GTX 460 is fine for his current PSU, then his next GPU will also be fine. Everything in his price range has a sub 150W TDP except for the 7870 or 270X, which are both higher than 150W TDP. He said he doesn't care about CPU or PSU. So why continue to ask him.

Back to the topic at hand: OP, you have good choices for your price bracket. AMD definitely has some really good offerings for sub 200$, and the 750ti could be compelling as well. I'd suggest waiting till the 18th to see how the dust settles, and make your pick from there. If you want something now, though, the 7850 at less than 150$ would be a good pick. The 270 would also work, and would fit in that price bracket. On the NV side, the 650ti with boost is an awesome card for the price, but I think it was discontinued for the upcoming 750ti.

 

[AltTabbins]

If you don't like the advice offered here then don't ask for it. There are a lot of things that factor into a gpu choice. You posting what you did is like me going to a food forum and asking "what should be the main course of my meal?" And then having a fit when people ask you what kind of food you like or what your side dish is.

You are a smart guy, I can't tell from your posts. If you dont want to hear about potential bottlenecks go read newegg reviews.

 

[Nazo]

Please can we cease this? I'm saying I want to focus solely on the videocard and thus if there are other bottlenecks I can deal with them separately. And to extend your metaphor, it's actually like going to a food forum and saying I want a good main course within a certain pricerange that consists of something relatively low calorie without being too diet oriented containing a light meat such as chicken or whitefish. There are options -- and I want to know these options -- but when it comes to videocards meeting the criteria I defined in the first post, there aren't actually that many and thus you really don't have to get into really complex variables to answer the question. Better than GTX460, as power efficient as I can realistically hope in that range (preferably less if at all possible,) and at least close to a $150-200 pricerange (with some leeway.) How many videocards fit that criteria? I'm looking for advice based on that criteria, not advice for "best gaming systems" or etc. It's not that I asked for advice and didn't like that someone answers, it's that I asked for advice for one thing and then someone immediately tries to explain why I'm asking for advice on the wrong thing. It's the same blasted thing that happens every time I post on [H] and I was desperately hoping with the initial post leaving out that other stuff that this is the very thing I'd avoid.

No, I will not respond further to anything not directly related to the actual subject at hand: a videocard that meets the criteria mentioned in the first post. If you don't want to talk about videocards, please feel free not to, but no more arguing please.

 

[limitedaccess]

GTX 750/750ti will likely be well within the price the limit you set (likely well under going by rumors at this point). Nvidia current stance is very efficiency focused due to the markets they are currently interested in, and Maxwell supposedly will be very focused in this regard due to being designed from small to big.

Some considerations however -
1) Resolution
One thing to consider about this is the new GTX 750/ti are lower end cards which to this day are still be restricted with 128 bit memory buses. This means memory bandwidth would be rather low. Make sure when you are looking at benchmarks to focus on the ones more applicable to you (in this case specifically a higher resolution if it is what you are using) as the relative performance differences at 1280x720 vs 1920x1080 will not scale the same way due to this difference.

2) Power Efficiency/Usage
If you actually want to save the most on power it isn't as simple as comparing cards at max load usage. Idle power usages may be different, and even dependent on various situations and considerations (dual monitor vs single monitor example, long idle). In between scenarios (eg. watching videos) may produce different results as well. Even in terms of when in use playing a game some cards now are able to downclock (along with using lower voltage states) depending on load.

So the most efficient card at high load (which is typically whats tested) may not actually be using the least power for your usage.

3) Are you looking for efficiency or actual power usage?
A more efficient GPU could still be using more power overall, you just get more performance from it.

4) Practical or "hobby" interest?
By this I mean if you get say 10W in power savings what does that actually translate to you? Are you more interested in that just out of personal interest? If its out of practicality, what is the actual monetary savings in real terms?

 

[Nazo]

Yeah, I was looking more into the GTX 450ti and wondering that very same stuff. It uses faster memory, has more CUDA cores, and so on, but has limitations like that memory bus. From what some are saying it sounds like it might be just ever so slightly worse in average performance than my GTX460 -- better at some things, worse at others. It's really tempting all the same with that potential power efficiency (even if it's not 60W, apparently there is doubt as to whether it even will have a PCI-E power connector which could mean it would have to not exceed 75W due to PCI-E power slot limitations. This would make it considerably more efficient while possibly performing at least close to the same in most things and maybe handling some things benefiting from newer technologies or the larger number of CUDA cores -- perhaps things like OpenCL games -- better?) It's really hard to decide. Well, I won't be buying it at 12 am on the 18th if I do get one, lol. I'll have time to see what people are saying once they actually buy them. As xoleras rightly points out, this could at the very least cause some more price competition in the market for that sort of range of cards.

As far as I can tell, getting a reliable source on a 270x for my pricerange is impossible. Reliable sites like Newegg have it at close to $300 ranges even. I'm not buying a used one on eBay or some random seller on Amazon or something (I want guarantees that it won't tear up on day 31,) so I'm probably just going to not bother looking further on that one. However, I've been kind of wondering about that 7850. It sounds like it's at least a little bit more power efficient (possibly a lot -- I do have the 1GiB model btw so it looks more like 130 vs 160 max) than my GTX460 and should perform better by a fairly decent margin, so I'm definitely considering it as the next best thing to look at so far at least. I'm seeing 2GiB of gDDR5 with a 256-bit bus on that one, so it looks promising as far as shaders, FSAA, and other such apparently memory intensive operations go as well (I'm not 100% clear on exactly which part of the videocard bottlenecks some of these games, but given the 1080p resolution, since I want at least a little FSAA it is definitely an important consideration. 2GiB is probably overkill, but it probably won't hurt to do more than 1GiB at the very least, even if perhaps I only need 1.25, lol.) Right now it seems like it's probably my best bet and I'll be keeping an eye on it in particular just atm. I'm most likely going to go that direction I think as I really like a lot of what I'm seeing about it.

 

[BroHamBone]

If you don't like the advice offered here then don't ask for it. There are a lot of things that factor into a gpu choice. You posting what you did is like me going to a food forum and asking "what should be the main course of my meal?" And then having a fit when people ask you what kind of food you like or what your side dish is.

You are a smart guy, I can't tell from your posts. If you dont want to hear about potential bottlenecks go read newegg reviews.

Lol, yea. Please accept advice as well as post specs. Even if people rant about bottlenecking just tell them where you stand, as you already have. You will get better advice and future advice if you share your system specs.

 

[dragonstongue]

I don't think the 460 was ever power hungry. It was a 150W TDP part from 2009, so it really isn't a stretch to go from a 150W TDP part to a sub 200$ less than 150W TDP part. If his current card is a 150W TDP, then going to a 7870, GTX 650ti, GTX 750ti, or ANYTHING ELSE with a similar TDP will be a non issue. You do understand that for his budget, literally everything at that price level has a lower than 150W TDP. At least, most of them. Perhaps some of the AMD cards are higher, I don't know. I do know the 7850 is a 130W TDP. The GTX 660 is a 140W TDP. I can't see anything in his price range using more power than his 460, there is no need for a new PSU.

TDP isn't power consumption, that's what you're missing, dragons. The point remains. If his 150W TDP GTX 460 is fine for his current PSU, then his next GPU will also be fine.

wow. go back to hello kitty. I agree that it shouldn't be an issue and I have stated as much if you read my posts, but hey don't bother just pick and choose what you would like to read.

best bet really would be x60 level of performance for Nvidia i.e 660-760-860(when out) maybe just maybe a 750 but the x50 do tend to lose a fair amount of performance compared to the x60s. For Radeon the sweet spot overall is the x850 or better so 7850 or R260 and higher. All have their own choices for gpu brandings and cooling etc, I really like MSI myself their Twin Frozr design works extremely well, the newest ones go under then Gaming branding and really are quite top notch for overclocking capacity (usually among the higher clocking cards) temperature-noise and such.

lloose got it right, obviously you can read millions of reviews out there, why ask for extra help deciding but limiting it to what you feel are essentials when folks who do this for a living ask simple questions cause it DOES matter.

overall power use and power efficeny are quite different, 75w no power connector or say 100w with if that 100w with is giving a noticeable performance boost for that extra 25w well then.

Limited bus width definitely has an impact even with similar shaders and such, it matters with high resolution and some settings but matters more on the game in question.

newer tech for power saving etc and possibly more advanced AA and such, but really 1 generation of card usually is just a bump in performance more then anything else, more shaders do not always equal more performance 460 1gb vs 460SE as an example.

they make 7850 in single slot coolers if you look hard enough generally speaking if the cpu does not feed the gpu fast enough it will bottleneck, buswidth, memory speed, number of shaders, etc all matter, generally 256 with at least 1gb memory on the card is what you want minimum these days.

 

[Nazo]

lloose got it right, obviously you can read millions of reviews out there, why ask for extra help deciding but limiting it to what you feel are essentials when folks who do this for a living ask simple questions cause it DOES matter.

I asked for advice on a videocard, not a gaming computer setup, that's the difference. I just need info about the current range of videocards and what I should be looking into as I haven't been keeping up with videocards at all lately and because, as I stated, I'm looking for fairly specific criteria that can be hard to determine from reviews. (For instance, while I see some mentioning power usage in their test setups, they don't identify how much the base system itself uses -- well, I'll admit that it's hard to do that as even an onboard GPU uses some extra power when actually being used -- and not many directly compare on the exact same setup my current card. Few things list out the actual power usage of the cards in official specs -- though I am impressed at how many more do these days as they used to not even mention that max TDP or anything in the past that I ever saw.)

overall power use and power efficeny are quite different, 75w no power connector or say 100w with if that 100w with is giving a noticeable performance boost for that extra 25w well then.

Perhaps, but at the same time they are directly related. For instance, this GTX460 gets less efficiency compared to what I'm looking at as it produces less performance per watt in comparison. I guess I'm looking at both, but with a focus on power use itself.

Limited bus width definitely has an impact even with similar shaders and such, it matters with high resolution and some settings but matters more on the game in question.

Indeed. It's really hard to pin down sometimes as there are a lot of variables even with particular games, but still, 128-bit is probably just not going to cut it.

they make 7850 in single slot coolers if you look hard enough

Er... No thanks. Dual slot coolers tend to exhaust better (out the back instead of right back into the case) and due to the larger/thicker fans, that better exhaust, and etc they tend to run a little quieter as well. (Or in some cases a lot quieter... I've had my share of noisy cards and those dinky little fans sometimes have to spin up to ridiculous RPMs to deal with real videocards when they are determined to keep them as small as possible.)


Anyway, I'm almost dead set on the Sapphire HD 7850 OC I see on Newegg. From looking around it seems like that one only uses roughly 2 watts more than the reference 7850 which is, in turn, already better than my GTX460 under load by probably a pretty fair margin (and I think a bit better even when idle from the look of things.) Benchmark-wise it seems people are comparing an HD 7850 to a dual GTX460 SLI setup (and like with CPUs I'll admit it's not a true 2x situation when you add another one to the mix, but in other words even if it's not 2x it's at least enough more powerful in comparison that I think I can count on it to hold up over some time.) Also, I've been getting into a lot of indie games that use OpenCL lately and it looks like it would handle them a fair bit better than this GTX460 as far as I can determine. I may actually go ahead with it as it looks like this is a choice that even if I could theoretically find something a little better, it won't be a card I'd regret having by any means whatsoever.

 

[dragonstongue]

well then I agree on most of what you stated as pointed out, but simple questions get simple answers, if it works less then you expect well it might have been better to look into some more by asking more questions in a more direct way.

Anyways.
newer vs older, as you pointed more often more advanced features, better performance per watt, performance per $ and so forth. There are some very high performing cards that do not draw as much as their competition in price bracket so my point still stands though for the most part your does as well depending on how you look at it, overall power use over x time is one aspect, overall power use with given results is another, the whole sweet spot side that AMD tries to bring forth which the 7850 as an example very much fits, as did the GTX460 or 650Ti getting a lot of performance for not being very power hungry and quite cost effective.

I have yet to see a dual slot cooler or anything then a blower fan really push most of its air OUT of the card(which sucks cause I want a high performance but quiet blower fan these things get hot) most coolers these days are dual or triple fans(mostly dual) and even some single more centered fans that push the vast majority of heat into the case so while the card stays chilly it can and will heat the case up especially if the rest of the case is not cooled well or at least airflow thought out well from the user or case maker etc.

128bit will be ok 1680x1050 type but I think personally will not have enough oomph for 1080p type really, almost as bad as them slapping 2-4gb on cards that simply can not use it effectively.

The more modern cards as in 5-6-7-R2xx series from AMD and 5xx-6xx-7xx soon to be 8xx Nvidia series are ~ the same if not quite a bit more then double SLI 200/400 or CF 3-4k series, also vastly more power efficient especially during idle (depending on card of course) and sometimes even during load, if you choose to do so, you can massively downclock to save on temperatures/noise/power even more really, most of the older ones you really could not so much yay for power gating and much more stages.

7850 is a great performing card if you like what you see I think you will be quite happy and yes to the best of my knowledge AMD supports OpenCL a lot better then Nvidia has. Been using them since the 4k series not had a major issue in anything be it drivers or performance though I do not jump to every new driver that comes out, and that's being very honest.

something to check out just seen it last night this might help push prices a bit
http://www.kitguru.net/components/g...pphire-r7-265-dual-x-graphics-card-review/22/

so basically will push 260x/260/7850 prices accordingly and spanks the 650Ti. which for its cost is a great card really (performance wise) Might be worth some heavy reading. So then 650Ti boost, 750(possibly) 760 Nvidia for great $/performance or the mentioned radeons for ~ the price level you want to pay.

 

[Nazo]

I see. That 265 really does change things up quite a bit. It's actually striking me as being rather far above the usual R7 series and more like a lower R9 if anything with things like that 256-bit bus. Apparently it's basically like the HD 7850, just a bit better? It looks like they are saying it's 150 versus 130 max power, but it's hard to tell what that really translates to I suppose. That $50 theoretical price difference also sounds really nice. I guess the biggest question of all though is when they'll really show up and how wide of a window one might have to actually get them at at least close to MSRP. If they go up like the 270x did...

Definitely something to at least be on the lookout for. I'm kind of thinking it would be nice to go ahead and get something soon, so I don't want to wait for months but would like to go ahead and get something for when I have more off time in the near future to actually use such a thing in, but if there's hope of this one actually hitting the shelves soon it's very worth looking into. Most things are saying "end of the month" though and even that isn't certain from what I'm reading.


On the OpenCL thing, nVidia has CUDA and one supports the other generally, but I do kind of wonder if, standards-wise, it might be almost more like how it is with ATi and OpenGL. I don't know if it's just more open or what though, but I've never seen any of these indie developers using anything that said CUDA (or PhysX or something else for that matter) instead of OpenCL, so I've begun wondering if nVidia just doesn't support it as well plain and simple -- perhaps trying to push their own standards instead.

 

[dragonstongue]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7754/the-amd-radeon-r7-265-r7-260-review-feat-sapphire-asus
well the R7 26x family are essentially "replacers" for outgoing 7k models which have been very nice performing with good feature sets for their price point., they have bumped performance for a bit more average power use, but more cores, faster memory etc, this is kind of a given and many of them are custom cards right off the get go, so they do tend to be ~$10-$20 above MSRP as well, great for cooling bad for $

Basically
R7-260 replaces 7770, R7-260x for 7790, 265 for 7850, 270 for 7870 and so forth.
nice graph at bottom here to show ~ levels of performance equivalents and expected pricing though take such with grain of salt

Nvidia has Cuda of course their bread and butter as well as crapX err PhysX, they both support OpenCL and GL though CL is far more supported Radeon wise and GL from what I have heard is now being heavily Nvidia backed due to Mantle though Nvidia has always had a bit more GL support form my understanding.

Either way its a toss back and forth, unless you are doing "Fancy stuff" encoding, decoding, hashcracking etc they compete very directly on virtually all price points, power targets etc. Nvidia does or seems to do full screen type crazy AA better, Radeon at least from what I have seen and their previous history seems to give a better quality final picture if all is equal it seems more, "lush" Nvidia seems more "hyper"(cant use a better word or cant think of one)

Also from what I have been reading and could be wrong though, 260 series are likely not going to experience the price hikes like all the other ones have as MOST folks do not get them to mine on to costly for their power/performance for mining purposes, so their prices are quite close to recommended MSRP 270 and equivalent however have been being bought up like hotcakes due to their price to performance and acceptable mining performance for price.

Nvidia 750/Ti might prove interesting as they have a hole right now as article alludes to, shouldn`t be much longer?

 

[Nazo]

Ok, upon looking over things a bit more, I'm kind of leaning towards the HD 7850 more. It seems like it uses just a bit less power for one (130-ish vs 150-ish, though it seems there's plenty of variance on this and I'm not sure the HD 7850 I'm looking at isn't really officially 150 anyway. It looks like it's still more efficient than my GTX460 in actual real life use thanks to much better scaling and etc though.) The 265s aren't really supposed to start hitting shelves until a fair bit later this month and it's not looking promising at that to me. It turns out that, once I read more of the fine print, previous reviews of the 265 are actually not using early 265 cards, but, in fact, are using 270s reprogrammed to act like 265s. I'm not really sure how exactly this means it translates to real life results, but I'm betting that the real 265 will be just a bit worse performance-wise than the early benchmarks and the difference is already kind of weak (for example, the AnandTech benchmarks all showed a 4 FPS difference versus the 7850.) Probably within overclock range (and if it really is 130 versus 150, if I really wanted that difference I could probably overclock and get pretty close to it with around the same sort of power increase.) But also, the fact that they aren't even using real press 265s but modified 270s makes me suspect that the manufacturers are only just now beginning to actually start designing 265s and it could well be next month at the earliest or even longer still.

The biggest problem is the 7850s are officially considered kind of old now even though really they're still currently the only thing quite within their particular range and that 265 that will replace it is practically the same thing at that. So places like Newegg barely have any in stock. I do see a great deal on Fry's which is a company people always seemed to say good things about, but I've had no dealings with them personally. Does anyone know how reliable they are for buying computer equipment? Eg stuff like RMAs for DOA equipment and etc? Newegg is really hard to beat in that sort of respect, but they have almost nothing left. However, Fry's has the ASUS HD7850-DC2-2GD5-V2, which has a cooler that is supposed to be exceptionally quiet (yeah, it still does exhaust into the case, but it seems that the person earlier who said that most dual slot coolers still do this was correct as I'm not seeing that many that don't. My case is fairly decent heat-wise anyway with fans on the top and the PSU separate on the bottom and the CPU not being terribly hot, so I think this is ok anyway and I'm actually rather fond of the idea of it not being as loud as this GTX460 gets.) http://www.frys.com/product/7311724 Anyone have any opinion on buying from them? It does seem that AMD officially supports them as a seller, so as far as manufacturer warranties go I'm still covered, but I've never had to use a manufacturer warranty before as generally you can tell within 30 days what you're working with.

 

[dragonstongue]

Assus DCII are ok coolers but there are better, the thing apparently that set these DCII apart overall was higher average overclocks (though not by much) but also higher average noise, temps and power ("stock" and overclocked) at these clocks so its a +/- thing, either way 265 is "tweaked" shall we say, so going by this facet a 7850 in stock reference form will use x power, ramp those clocks (you or factory) and the power will be quite similar if not possibly higher as they have had time possibly to respin it for lower power etc who really knows

Dual slot or better yet dual fan, tri fan, single centered fan, they all blow heat back into the case (exception is titan cooler as it does blow some out but blows most in as well 20%/80%?) I would say in nearly all cases 95% or so would remain in the case. It generally means quieter and much better cooling though the reference cooler is slightly more robust at cooling the card completely from the core to the ram to the vregs but not always the case, so yeh, a "custom" cooler for single card use is definitely the way to go if you look at it very carefully as best you can.

NCIX, Newegg, TigerDirect, Memoryexpress, TankGuys, Amazon, Ebay, Frys (I know many buds that got through them) there is lots of choices really.

To quote from Aandtech article
"Compared to the 7850 that it’s based on, R7 265 is receiving the same GPU clockspeed and memory clockspeed bump that the 7870-derrived R9 270 series saw last year that will make the R7 265 a bit faster than the 7850 it functionally replaces and making it better suited to fill the gap between the R9 270 and R7 260X."

so purely spec wise, it is an overclock from the factory AND possibly using higher quality memory so to me it is worth it, and in a general aspect if for example 1 card uses low clock memory that is already close to its limit where the other is higher spec to begin with 20w is nothing, and that is within margin or error really. I wouldn't look at that side, look at, its a factory clocked card, newer (better supported rebrand or not) possibly better cooling solutions available to it, like maybe MSI gaming version :O

anyways, sure you will be happy either way

 

[dragonstongue]

oh yeh and the DCII really depends, from what I recall they slipped a DCII version II out in some models without changing packaging or anything, the only way you can tell is both fans have the exact number of fan blades, this definitely cooled far better and was a good deal quieter as the previous "version" was not supplying enough air to the fan with less blades and causing the other to overspin or something (difference in pressure and airflow 1 was more blades other was less but more angle) the new ones for the new cards have a specialized blower/fan combo for one of the blades not nearly the same thing, the only reason why I recall this, I wanted to get one myself BUT it was a toss up between asus, msi and sapphire at the time, apparently sapphire does not have a great rma system in place here compared to the states, and the asus cooler was either decent or not that good depending on "version"

I don't know, I went to MSI myself (for gpu) as their coolers just work they don't seems to do wonky shit for nothing and their specific models use specific memory and parts they don't swap them back and forth nearly as much as other makers who use say memory however they see fit, nice to know a "high end model" is just that.

 

[limitedaccess]

If you are referring to Canadian RMAs what sets Asus (Markham, Ontario) and MSI (Richmond, BC and Markham, Ontario) apart is that they both actually have facilities here in Canada as opposed to having to send your card to the USA (or worse in some cases Asia).

On the blower style coolers will exhaust out. The trade off is basically comparatively lower cooling potential on the actual GPU (especially at the same fan noise level). The custom heatsinks (which don't exhaust) simply have much more heatsink and fan real estate to work with. Keep in mind though with relatively lower TDP cards (they put out less heat) the issue of heat being dumped into the case is much less, unless you have very poor case ventilation it won't be an issue.

Was your GTX 460 a reference blower design? Any custom dual fan (or more) design will basically be very noticeably quieter, even the louder tuned ones.

 

[Nazo]

Well, on the 265s, what I'm thinking is that it could be next month at the earliest and that they are likely going to be starting above MSRP anyway. Plus it will be a while past even that before we can really expect to see the better builds (better cooling, more stability, etc) versus whatever first hits the market. Not to mention that this is all assuming that miners don't run it up or something. On the other hand, I'm not completely convinced that I can't make up most of the difference I was seeing in benchmarks comparing the two from just a bit of overclocking if I felt like I really needed it (which I doubt.) While I'm not exactly in a rush per se, I do really want to go ahead and start getting the benefits of it and frankly the remake in the 265 version just doesn't seem enough better to sit around waiting on it to me.

Anyway, as nice as that deal seemed, what I didn't notice before is that it has in very tiny text "unavailable." So I guess that particular one is out. I'm thinking I'll just give up and go with the Newegg card. I just don't really feel comfortable buying who knows what from eBay with basically no real guarantees beyond DOA being surely covered by buyer protection. Amazon I'm still pretty iffy as it's really just a more professional version of eBay with groups and companies more than individuals. (The groups in particular can be tricky though.) It's actually funny because I actually saw one of the HD 7850s on Amazon for a whopping $999. Yes. $999. I guess someone is hoping someone will misclick... Anyway, I'm thinking that the Sapphire on Newegg looks like it's at least well cooled and etc and while the overclock is kind of silly (it's barely overclocked at that!) it does at least guarantee that the card has a bit more leeway and all. (I'm actually considering tweaking around with it and maybe underclocking it just a bit instead so maybe I can even get it a bit quieter still, but I'll just have to wait and see what happens I guess.)

BTW, don't forget I'm not trying to max everything out or anything. I'm just trying to get something that should still hold out for a little while and I think this one will at least hold me until I next can actually afford to do a real upgrade. Besides, with so little truly going on in the market at ranges like these, this really isn't the most competitive time to be buying and the next time will (hopefully) have a lot more to really look at. In a worst case scenario, it is covered by their standard return policy so could be returned within 30 days if it really were worth it (though I'd lose a restocking fee and shipping sadly, but in other words at least the option is available.)

 

[Dangman]

I was going to stay away from this thread when you become extremely and unnecessarily hostile with and not forthright to my earlier questions but I can't ignore when someone is about to make a stupid mistake: Don't buy the HD 7850. At its current pricing, it's just a horrible buy overall. Before the mining craze happened, you could find HD 7850 cards for $160 before any sort of rebates or coupons or discounts. At the $190 price point, you could easily find the faster HD 7870. In other words, you're overpaying for that card. Especially since it's a Sapphire card.

At this point in time, I would not buy any AMD card above the $140 price point due to the mining craze. Nvidia is going to be your best bet if you want best bang for your buck.

 

[Nazo]

7870 is a bit more than I really want. It uses a good 20 watts or so more and requires a better PSU than the 7850 (which would be pushing the limits a bit, though since no one will use real numbers it's hard to be sure.) As for nVidia vs ATi, after thinking about it a bit more, I've decided that I have been doing a lot of stuff with indie games that do utilize OpenCL and am generally a bit more inclined just to stick with that. I couldn't care less about official PhysX support anyway. Besides, the best nVidia options with the criteria I've specified aren't really looking very good at all compared to ATi right now -- frankly after looking into all of this I'd have to say it really feels like the market has been stagnating a bit, possibly related to gaming becoming so console oriented that most PC games are now bad console game ports. Yes, it is overspending for what it should be worth, but it's more oriented towards what I really need and suits what I want a little better than the other options really seem to be doing. (Also, if I did have to buy a new PSU to suit a 7870, it becomes far more expensive in comparison given how much a decent quality PSU costs.)

Anyway, I already ordered a short while after making that post and am actually feeling pretty satisfied with the capabilities of the HD 7850. From looking over reviews and benchmarks it looks like it can handle extremely reasonable settings at 1080p with very good framerates. Even if theoretically I could get something "better" in one way or another, there's no doubt that this one will be very very nice.

 

[Dangman]

7870 is a bit more than I really want. It uses a good 20 watts or so more and requires a better PSU than the 7850 (which would be pushing the limits a bit, though since no one will use real numbers it's hard to be sure.) As for nVidia vs ATi, after thinking about it a bit more, I've decided that I have been doing a lot of stuff with indie games that do utilize OpenCL and am generally a bit more inclined just to stick with that. I couldn't care less about official PhysX support anyway. Besides, the best nVidia options with the criteria I've specified aren't really looking very good at all compared to ATi right now -- frankly after looking into all of this I'd have to say it really feels like the market has been stagnating a bit, possibly related to gaming becoming so console oriented that most PC games are now bad console game ports. Yes, it is overspending for what it should be worth, but it's more oriented towards what I really need and suits what I want a little better than the other options really seem to be doing. (Also, if I did have to buy a new PSU to suit a 7870, it becomes far more expensive in comparison given how much a decent quality PSU costs.)

You know, if you told us what PSU you had, we could confirm whether or not it could run the HD 7870. From experience, people tend to over-inflate how much power they need, use, or want. Especially when they use a damn Kill-A-Watt. Like dragonstongue said, I do this kind of thing for a LIVING. He wasn't kidding.

With that said, I wasn't recommending the HD 7870. I was just saying that the HD 7850 is a shitty buy at its current pricing.

Anyway, good luck with your purchase. Not something I would ever recommend to anyone else in the forum but good luck nonetheless

 

[xoleras]

The R7-265 was paper launched with reviews everywhere - that part is essentially on par with the 7850 and has a 150W TDP. It is also SUPPOSED to have a 150$ MSRP. Whether that actually happens or not, who knows, and I very much doubt it as all of AMD's mid range is price inflated at the moment. But. If you can nab a 265 at 150$, that's going to be a good deal. The card should be hitting at the very end of this month or early next according to various reviews i've seen.

The 750ti is also being launched on the 18th and I think Brent will have comparisons to the R7-265. (that's what he posted anyway, I believe) Rumors put the 750ti pricing at sub 150$. I've seen all kinds of performance rumors, but at this point it's probably better to wait for reviews in 3 days.

Anyway. Regarding the 7850. You might want to wait for the R7-265 which is roundabouts the same thing, and is supposed to have a 150$ MSRP. Unless you find a 7850 for a lot less than that, if you do, grab it. Or you could wait and see what NV has brewing, if you like the green side. I'm just saying, don't get the 7850 for more than 150$, especially when the R7-265 is supposed to be launched at that price. As far as the 7870 goes, that may run into issues with your PSU - keep in mind that most of the 270X cards are factory OC'ed models as well which are "high" in terms of TDP margin of error compared to reference designs. Reference designs match TDP more closely than factory OC'ed models do - something to keep in mind. The 270X or 7870 with a 170W TDP might push you past the safe zone unless you get a new PSU, so the R7-265, 7850, or 750ti (depending on how it ends up performing) will probably be the best options for you to fit in the 150W TDP window.

TL'DR: best options for a perceivable performance increase in a 150W TDP window:

R7-265: supposed to be 150W TDP, 150$ MSRP, launched @ end of month
R7-270: good card, about the same as the 265. Price is an issue. Most of those are 190-200$, and it performs almost the same as the newly launched R7-265. So if the 265 performs about the same, the 40$ higher price is somewhat ridiculous.
7850: buy this only if it is less than 150$, as it is around the same as the R7-265. If you find it less than 150$, buy it immediately.
GTX 660: This card is closer to 200$. Not a good value unless all of AMD's offerings are out of wack in terms of price. 150W TDP, price 180-190$. Honestly, this card doesn't have the best price/perf.
GTX 650ti with boost: good card but damn impossible to find. I think it was discontinued.
GTX 750ti: Launches in 3 days, a lot of rumors about performance but we'll see. Supposed to be downright amazing in terms of price/performance, but nothing concrete until the 18th

Now once you get into the 7870, 270X, GTX 660ti, all of those cards might be past your 150W TDP safe window. So the above are really the best options, IMO. And all of the above cards should be a noticeable performance increase above the GTX 460 as well.

 

[87dtna]

Most AMD cards are getting priced out of the gaming market. The 260x is crap, not a real upgrade from an overclocked 460.

The R7 265 sounds great, and if you can get one at the $150 MSRP I think it would be the best upgrade for the price. But I have my doubts they will actually launch at $150.

The 750 Ti isn't going to be that great because it's hampered by the 128 bit bus, it has quite a bit less memory bandwidth right off the bat compared to the 460. The real question though is what will be its release price.

There's really no good performance cards in the $130-170 range right now. The 660 used to be $170, but the prices raised because AMD's prices went up on the 7850 and 7870 (it's main competition). The 650 Ti boost was an absolutely fantastic card, only like 10% under 660 performance but for some crazy reason Nvidia discontinued it. I have not a clue why, that card could be dominating the budget gaming market right now if it was still available.

In the $150-200 range, the best option right now is the gtx 660. $180 atm-

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125443&ignorebbr=1

 

[xoleras]

87, can't say I completely agree. WRT the 660, I agree there - The 660 is a good card if AMD is priced out of the gaming range. If the 270 is 200$ and the 660 is 180$? Then the 660 is far better at that price. I don't know where AMD stands right now in terms of "real world" street pricing, but it is true that nearly all of their cards are priced 30-40$ past MSRP at the low end. And that's unfortunate because we need better competition with a strongly priced AMD - regardless of what anyone prefers, we NEED AMD to be in a strong competitive position. However - Honestly, I think bus width is far overrated - they said the same thing about the GK104 based GTX 680 compared to the 7970 prior to launch, and the 680 came out ahead. Bus width does not manifest itself as a problem EXCEPT at super high resolutions such as 1600p, and even then only with super absurd AA levels such as 8X MSAA or SGSSAA. Obviously you will not game on a 150$ card with something like this. The bus speed of the 750ti will be a non issue IMO for the target market (1080p or below, medium details), just like it's a non issue on the 660/660ti which is 192 bit.

These cards are geared for 1080p gaming with medium level or lower detail levels. Not 4k resolutions or 1600p - that's where bus width is most apparent, IMO. The biggest difference with sub 150$ cards is GDDR3 vs GDDR5. GDDR3 is horrible at the moment, as any card using it makes apparent. But bus width? Nah. All of the 7850 cards are 256 bit vs the 660 at 192 bit. Non issue there unless you're going for surround or 4k. Obviously you won't do that with a 125-150$ card.We'll see where the 750ti falls in a few days, but the point still stands.

In any case. We'll see in 3 days. Brent mentioned he is doing both a R7-265 and 750ti review in the coming days. Should be interesting to see how the bus width affects things. Anyway. While I do prefer nvidia nowadays. I really do hope AMD does something or anything to get prices in line. Nvidia basically has to do nothing right now in terms of competition and their cards are still selling extremely well (their market share went up Q4), because AMD's cards are priced past MSRP. I would like AMD to be super competitive, because as a consumer it is always preferable for the heat to be on. I love nvidia's products but do not like their pricing. I would love nothing more than for AMD to bring the pain to nvidia on the low end. I do hope that the R7-265 meets the MSRP at 150$ - if it does, that is going to be *THE* killer card at sub 200$.

 

[rumartinez89]

I would wait for the 750ti, but have you checked out microcenter. They have a 650ti made by PNY that goes for 139 and 109 after rebate.

 

[OmgitsSexyChase]

660 gtx gets my vote, all cards this generation have such low idle draw it doesn't even matter with about 4 watt variance between them, and its tdp is the same as a 460, with better performance than a 7850

 

[87dtna]

All of the 7850 cards are 256 bit vs the 660 at 192 bit. Non issue there unless you're going for surround or 4k. Obviously you won't do that with a 125-150$ card.

You have to look at total bandwidth, not just the bus width. The 7850 may be 256 bit but the ram speed is 1200mhz giving it 153gb/s bandwidth. The gtx 660 may be 192 bit but the ram is clocked at 1500mhz giving it 144gb/s.

The 750 Ti is 128 bit, at 1350mhz giving it a lowly 88gb/s bandwidth. HUGE difference there, even for 1080p gaming.

I've definitely maxxed out a 660 at 1080p, it's not hard to do. Only something like a 670 or better can dominate 1080p.

I've also owned a 7970, and a 680, and I can say with confidence the 7970 is definitely the stronger card.

 

[dragonstongue]

the performance of GTX660 and 7850 are +/- of each other depending on game, drivers used etc.

and I do not know what you are smoking but a 260x is no where near crap upgrade compared to a 460 considering purely on specs it is far faster in the things that matter AND uses less power and do to it being newer as well so then. Something that can be said about the 7-8 and R series and 6-7 from Nvidia, the TDP they give is more often then not what the card draws.

265 and 270, 265 same core parts as a 7850 BUT with the higher clock speed of 270, 270 still has more shaders and more rops which granted in some cases does not mean that much but in other cases makes a noticeable improvement.

And I agree with Dangman on this, if the pricing is right, but to say that no card above $140 is worth it, well then, same can be said about Nvidia cant it.

and yes apparently the 650Ti boost was discontinued, it was meant to put pressure on AMD not on Nvidias own card so they released it for a bit and now have gotten rid of it

 

[dragonstongue]

in regards to memory bandwidth side, even using high speed memory there will be times said bus gets trampled sooner look at say 360 vs ps3 same concept slow but very wide vs very fast but narrow, the differences here are minute so the real world experience will be as well though higher AA levels and such can and will take advantage of the situation if all else would be equal.

 

[xoleras]

You have to look at total bandwidth, not just the bus width. The 7850 may be 256 bit but the ram speed is 1200mhz giving it 153gb/s bandwidth. The gtx 660 may be 192 bit but the ram is clocked at 1500mhz giving it 144gb/s.

Well, like I said. I'm not saying you're right or wrong about the 750ti, BTW - we're just not sure yet. Anyway, the 680 beat the 7970 vanilla (non GHZ) at launch in terms of performance, obviously bus width isn't everything. This is not under dispute, because you can go back and read all of the GTX 680 launch reviews if you think otherwise - the bus width did not help the launch 7970 beat the 680. Now obviously AMD came out with the GHZ edition later on by overclocking the 7970 to take a slight edge. But, I'm not quite sure how you consider the 7970 vanilla the stronger card, i'd say the 7970/680 and 280X / GTX 770 are roughly equal and trade blows. But the 680 vanilla definitely did out-do the 7970 non ghz at launch, that is a fact. But the margins between the two were so slim that it did not matter. And the bus width, did not matter, the GK104 still won until AMD released the GHZ edition. And then the 770 was released which outperformed the GHZ edition. I guess the trend with the 680 > GHZ edition > 770 was, vendors overclocked their cards to take the performance crown. The point stands though, that despite the lower bus width, the GTX 680 took the performance crown over the 7970 at launch. So while bus width matters at absurdly high AA levels, it doesn't mean everything.

Anyway, i'm just speculating on the 750ti - the leaks look impressive, but those leaks aren't solid information. We will see in 3 days, I'm sure every website on the net will have extensive 1080p reviews pitting the R7-265 directly against the 750ti. I'm not sure what the outcome will be, but the rumored price of the 750ti is 135$ according to wccftech. I dunno. We'll see to what extent you are correct or incorrect. The bottom line is we'll have solid information in the coming days to prove or disprove your theory. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I don't know how well it will perform. But, I am saying that bus width isn't the sole consideration with a new uarch. It's not like you can zone in on the bus width alone and determine how a card performs. You can do that with GDDR3 vs GDDR5, but not bus width.

That said, AMD still has great offerings for that sub 200$ market but it all hinges on price. If any of these cards are 30-40$ over MSRP they're not fucking worth it. 30-40$ is a 30-50% markup on some of these cards, and that can mean the difference between a card being a great buy or being horrible price/performance. If these cards are marked up by 30-40$, then that suddenly makes the GTX 660 with its 140W TDP the best buy under 200$ - that card is 180-190$ with no price fluctuations. This is how important AMD's prices are - IF the R7-265 is 150$, if that actually happens, then that is a hell of a buy. If it's price inflated, then the 660 is the better buy all of a sudden. Now I have my doubts that this card will actually sell at MSRP, PCPer seemed to indicate that the 265 won't hit shelves until early March. They also mentioned on their podcast that they have severe doubts about MSRP on the R7-265 actually happening. I hope they are wrong because as i've said numerous times: If it's 150$, it's a heck of a great buy. Similarly, if the 7850 can be found right now under 150$, that is also a great buy. Otherwise, if prices aren't in line with what they should be it may be prudent to wait 3 days to see what happens with the 750ti. Or look at the GTX 660. This is how important AMD's pricing is, it can turn the tides on which card is the best for the sub 200$ bracket - 30-40$ is a big deal in that price range; it easily shifts the best buy from the 7850/265 to the 660. As far as the 750ti goes..... You could be right on the bus width. OR you could be wrong. I dunno. We'll see.

 

[87dtna]

the performance of GTX660 and 7850 are +/- of each other depending on game, drivers used etc.

and I do not know what you are smoking but a 260x is no where near crap upgrade compared to a 460 considering purely on specs it is far faster in the things that matter AND uses less power and do to it being newer as well so then. Something that can be said about the 7-8 and R series and 6-7 from Nvidia, the TDP they give is more often then not what the card draws.

Wow no. The 660 is closer to 7870 performance. Not sure what you're smoking on that one. The 7850 is a GOOD 20% under 660 performance.

The 260x is like 15-20% upgrade over a 460. And it may consume about 30w less power. That's hardly worth the'' upgrade''.

Well, like I said. The 680 beat the 7970 vanilla (non GHZ) at launch in terms of performance, obviously bus width isn't everything. This is not under dispute, because you can go back and read all of the GTX 680 launch reviews if you think otherwise - the bus width did not help the launch 7970 beat the 680. Now obviously came out with the GHZ edition later on by overclocking the 7970 to take a slight edge. But, I'm not quite sure how you consider the 7970 vanilla the stronger card, i'd say the 7970/680 and 280X / GTX 770 are roughly equal and trade blows. But the 680 vanilla definitely did out-do the 7970 non ghz at launch, that is a fact. But the margins between the two were so slim that it did not matter. And the bus width, did not matter, the GK104 still won until AMD released the GHZ edition.

Who said I was comparing stock VS stock? The 7970 is HORRIBLY underclocked, even the GHZ edition. On a good 680 you can get +100mhz maybe +150mhz over stock. The 7970 can easily go +300, sometimes +400 over vanilla clocks.
A 7970 at 1200 core clock is now competing with the R9 290. At 1300 core clock the 7970 is beating the stock 290 in most benches. The 680 cannot get anywhere close to a 290 on the stock cooler.

 

[xoleras]

Oh suddenly the goalposts moved to overclocking when we're talking about bus width. So what does that have to do with bus width anyway? Oh, those mythical 1300mhz 7970s that have so much lore behind them. I love it. I owned 7970 crossfire and bought them on launch BTW. As a matter of fact, sold them to other H users, and it should be on my heatware still. 1300mhz 7970. I just snicker when I see that. I know how my cards overclocked. 1125. Fairly easy with a single card. 1300MHz? Yeah...okay. LOL. Needless to say you're the luckiest person in the world to hit that. Or maybe you're on LN2 / water. No idea. I also had MSI lightning 680s afterwards that hit past 1300mhz on the core quite easily, but that is of course a custom card.

Just to be clear on this stupid bus width issue. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I'm saying that past cards have been victors despite having a lower bus width - and let's not move goal posts with overclocking, that has absolutely zero to do with bus width. Past cards have only shown discrepencies at ridiculously absurd AA levels such as 8X MSAA at 1600p/4k resolutions or higher. For a 150$ card? I suspect it doesn't matter - you dont' buy such cards for high resolutions. That's just my opinion, and I could be wrong with respect to the 750ti, I completely admit this. You can argue about this until your face is green, but in the end, we don't have solid data - we will see if your theory is correct in 3 days when the 750ti launches. I admit you could be completely correct, but I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I DON'T KNOW. We will see.

Anyway, this is all off topic. So i'm not going to feed the troll in that respect, it doesn't help the OP. The OP has a good idea about what is good and not good for the sub 200$ segment. The cards to look at are the R7-265, 270, 7850, GTX 660, 7870 (if his PSU can handle the higher 170W TDP), and the upcoming 750ti. Or maybe a used 650ti with boost. All of these cards would be fantastic for the OP. The bottom line is AMD's sub 200$ offerings are awesome if they're at MSRP. If they're not at MSRP then nvidia has the better offerings. That's just all there is to it, everything hinges on price. The R7-265 at 150$, if that happens, will likely be *the* killer card to get.