Windows 8 Release Preview Review

[21CW]killerofall;1038787375 said:
Just finished installing it on a VM and it seams like a cross between an iPad interface (I dont have a touch screen PC but do own an iPad) and Tabworks (which was my very first GUI OS before Win 95, although it was kind of an overlay of 95 in a sense). You want to know the sad part, Tabworks was a better looking OS. I don't like metro and I will never use any "apps" (Why the hell cant we just call them "applications?" I HATE the term "apps"). I could get used to no start button, but then I would just have shortcuts to everything on the desktop and that would just be a mess. I might spend some more time on it, but right now I will not be getting Windows 8, even though it wont cost me a penny (legally too). That's right Microsoft, I wouldn't install Windows 8 if it were free. Windows 8 might be fine for the tablet and phone market but it is not for the PC.
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1. Tabworks was/is ugly as sin
2. Just because Apple products made the word "App" mainstream doesn't mean plenty of us didn't use that that word before the iPhone ever existed. Why? Well for one, its a more efficient way of saying application...and isn't what the W8 haters are so fixated on? Efficiency?
3. You don't have to pin any metro apps on your start screen. It can be all desktop apps. I don't know why you think you are all of a sudden forced into ONLY using the desktop to launch your apps?
 
Yeah, the term app has been around long before Apple had apps or an app store. It's just a contraction that people use, too much read into the term.
 
heatlesssun said:
This is really seems to trip people. It's difficult to understand Metro and Metro apps and their benefit if all one is looking at is keyboard and mouse efficiency. Even in the context of closing a program Alt-F4 can be even more efficient than using the mouse and that works just like it does with a desktop app.

People love to say that Windows 8 is a dumbing down of the OS and it really is a smartening up in that Metro presents another platform for applications that aren't geared towards just keyboards and mice. One has the option of using Metro apps with they want to use touch or even if they want to conserve power on their laptop. But right now I'm in the USA Today app on my dual screen desktop and I've got all the news, nice and laid out add free and it's beautiful and it works just fine with a mouse and keyboard and I don't really need to worry about closing it.
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Even though most of my posts are pro-W8 on this site, I almost never use any of the Metro apps (except to test them out when a new build is released) and live almost exclusively in the desktop...so the many times I have been preaching that you don't need to use Metro I am speaking from experience. That said, I am glad they added Metro and will definitely be buying an x86 convertible device when new W8 hardware starts shipping.
 
Aaron11 said:
Just get over it. Metro is the new thing, and its probably not going away. I don't understand why people can't live with change.
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Because change should be GOOD, not crap for the sake of crap.
 
Q1DM6 said:
Because change should be GOOD, not crap for the sake of crap.
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Of all of the criticisms of Metro this one is one the least valid. Clearly if the world isn't moving away from desktops and keyboards and mice it's adopting phones, tablets and touch at a much faster growth rate than traditional computers. The changes in Windows 8 have obvious reasons and sources.

Windows 8 may fail, but it certainly would have had even less chance of success if all it bought were incremental improvements to keyboard and mice centric desktops that are simply not the focus of consumer computing. And every day tablets and touch take more mindshare even in the enterprise.

The way and types of computing devices that average people use is changing more dramatically than at anytime since the birth of the PC. Microsoft couldn't simply leave Windows in an era that is passing the world by.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
Even though most of my posts are pro-W8 on this site, I almost never use any of the Metro apps (except to test them out when a new build is released) and live almost exclusively in the desktop...so the many times I have been preaching that you don't need to use Metro I am speaking from experience. That said, I am glad they added Metro and will definitely be buying an x86 convertible device when new W8 hardware starts shipping.
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Right now there aren't many Metro apps but there are a few that are decent. Virtually all Windows 8 users are going to mix and match Metro and desktop apps, there's simply going to be too many Metro apps to totally ignore that will be great on desktops and work fine with mice and keyboards. The People app is beautiful and a number of the media apps are quite nice even now. When games and more interesting apps come online, many being free, it'll be a no brainer for most folks.
 
heatlesssun said:
Clearly if the world isn't moving away from desktops and keyboards and mice it's adopting phones, tablets and touch at a much faster growth rate than traditional computers.
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No, whats actually happening is those devices simply didn't exist before and now they do. You will always have a seeming "explosion" in usage of such things because there is no comparable growth curve. Many of you seemingly mistake a new market for the only market.
 
I've been running it on a test box, and it seems pretty good so far. It will be very handy to have as a desktop OS if you use a touchscreen - could possibly see a shift in that direction as well.
 
Q1DM6 said:
No, whats actually happening is those devices simply didn't exist before and now they do. You will always have a seeming "explosion" in usage of such things because there is no comparable growth curve. Many of you seemingly mistake a new market for the only market.
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Tablets and touch have been around a long time. And no tablets and touch aren't the only market, but compared to traditional PCs there's simply more opportunity there now.
 
Just think of the Metro thing as a full screen, fancy Start button...to which it mostly is. And some cheapy/quicky things that do one thing full screen (and some apps aren't too bad). And hot corners. I find it runs better anyway.

Has anybody tried to install the RP ontop of the CP? I tend to just blow up and start fresh with installs but thought I would ask.
 
I see the 8 evangelism is strong in heatlesssun & chinesepiratefood. If apologetics regarding Metro were paid for by MS, money flows to the loudest voices on this subject.
 
Q1DM6 said:
No, whats actually happening is those devices simply didn't exist before and now they do. You will always have a seeming "explosion" in usage of such things because there is no comparable growth curve. Many of you seemingly mistake a new market for the only market.
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There is truth to this. Six years ago analysts were predicting we'd all be using Netbooks.
 
heatlesssun said:
Tablets and touch have been around a long time.
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And are only really now becoming functionally useful, meaningful devices. Look, I know you absolutely love tablets, but MS could have created a real desktop OS and a real tablet OS and not married the two and not be catching so much flack.
 
Q1DM6 said:
Look, I know you absolutely love tablets, but MS could have created a real desktop OS and a real tablet OS and not married the two and not be catching so much flack.
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That is basically my thought. I like the idea of integrating devices through local cloud systems and programs on different devices which are capable of reading and writing the same file types. However the idea of a single OS let along single UI for all devices just seems stupid and unnecessary in achieving that.
 
You know, the supporters of Win 8 keep failing or avoiding some specific questions. You dismiss the good change is great but this is bad change, but fail to present any argument as to why it isn't. Sure everything about win 8 is great for Tablets/touch devices but there isn't a Single valid argument as to why it is great for a normal desktop/laptop. Likewise there is absolutely no answer as to why on non touch devices there is no option to turn all the garbage off (like there has been in every previous version of windows).

Lets ignore touch devices for a few moments, especially given that is only going to be a fraction of the install base (barring a massive shift). Can any of you give me a solid list of reasons why Not giving users a Choice in their experience is not an absolutely awful decision?
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Lets ignore touch devices for a few moments, especially given that is only going to be a fraction of the install base (barring a massive shift). Can any of you give me a solid list of reasons why Not giving users a Choice in their experience is not an absolutely awful decision?
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Not only that but, I would want a handful of reasons as to why I should pay or even take the time to upgrade over Windows 7.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
You know, the supporters of Win 8 keep failing or avoiding some specific questions. You dismiss the good change is great but this is bad change, but fail to present any argument as to why it isn't. Sure everything about win 8 is great for Tablets/touch devices but there isn't a Single valid argument as to why it is great for a normal desktop/laptop. Likewise there is absolutely no answer as to why on non touch devices there is no option to turn all the garbage off (like there has been in every previous version of windows).

Lets ignore touch devices for a few moments, especially given that is only going to be a fraction of the install base (barring a massive shift). Can any of you give me a solid list of reasons why Not giving users a Choice in their experience is not an absolutely awful decision?
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Why isn't it bad change? Because all your devices can become synced (if you want it), and everywhere you go you will get a familiar UI. Here are some things that can make the start screen superior to the start menu on a desktop computer:

1. The start screen can hold more tiles/shortcuts than the start menu can (pinned).
2. Live tiles can provide you info on you calendar events, email, the weather, your common stocks, without having to visit 5 different websites, load outlook, etc.
3. The Windows Store provides a centralized place to get access to legitimate applications (as opposed to malware). The store obviously will have Metro apps, but will also allow you to search for desktop apps (won't provide downloads, but will provide links to the developer's download page)
4. The majority of users who use computers use them solely for consumption (when they aren't at work). These users can benefit from the rich security model of Metro apps, because they all live in a sandboxed environment.

And why doesn't Microsoft just let you turn Metro off? Why not bring back the classic start menu from Windows 95? Non sarcastically, if they kept in the start menu a large number of people would simply turn off Metro without even trying it.

Also, I have read through your complaints you have given, and the primary one seems to be cost of training. However, very few companies will be upgrading to W8, with or without Metro, because it simply doesn't fit their upgrade cycle.
 
I honestly don't mind the metro look of it, but it's quite the departure in terms of desktop functionality.
It reminds me of using the Mac OS for the first time after years of Windows. So far I'm finding it confusing.
 
Paul Thurrott was on TWiT.tv along with Leo speaking about the product. While he really likes Win8, he believes that businesses will not upgrade as Win7 has such a hold on current and future markets. I would have to agree that there isn't much justification for users to move up at this point. Additionally, it's been rumored that legacy code to make the start menu old style and "hack" a few older register items are being removed by MS so that they can move away from the "old" feel.
 
Master Blaster said:
Paul Thurrott was on TWiT.tv along with Leo speaking about the product. While he really likes Win8, he believes that businesses will not upgrade as Win7 has such a hold on current and future markets. I would have to agree that there isn't much justification for users to move up at this point. Additionally, it's been rumored that legacy code to make the start menu old style and "hack" a few older register items are being removed by MS so that they can move away from the "old" feel.
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What he was referring to with corporations was that many companies are just now preparing to upgrade to W7, and regardless of the reception of W8 businesses simply have no plans to upgrade to ANYTHING.
 
chinesepiratefood said:
What is so complicated about it?
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It just feels like every time you want to do a task, the OS "fights" you. I don't disagree that on a touch system it works quite nicely, but on a desktop with a mouse, my previous thought remains.

A perfect example is trying to shut down the system. Is it hard once you figure it out? No so much(Although it still takes twice as many clicks to get to it). But the fact I had to essentially Google how to doesn't speak well for it.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
I see the 8 evangelism is strong in heatlesssun & chinesepiratefood. If apologetics regarding Metro were paid for by MS, money flows to the loudest voices on this subject.
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I'm not apologizing for anything or anyone. I've been using Windows on tablets for off and on for 20 years, my first good IT invololved a Windows for Pen Computing implementation and have been interested in Windows tablets since then and I've been using Windows tablet PC everyday personally since Windows XP Tablet PC Edition came out ten years ago. The idea of having a computer than I can use keyboards, mice, touch and pens with is just natural to me and Windows 8 is the first version of Windows that actually has deep work specifically done to it to support all of the input methods well.

I used Windows on desktops, laptops and tablets interchangeably. Windows 8 is perfect for those who do this.
 
heatlesssun said:
I'm not apologizing for anything or anyone. I've been using Windows on tablets for off and on for 20 years, my first good IT invololved a Windows for Pen Computing implementation and have been interested in Windows tablets since then and I've been using Windows tablet PC everyday personally since Windows XP Tablet PC Edition came out ten years ago. The idea of having a computer than I can use keyboards, mice, touch and pens with is just natural to me and Windows 8 is the first version of Windows that actually has deep work specifically done to it to support all of the input methods well.

I used Windows on desktops, laptops and tablets interchangeably. Windows 8 is perfect for those who do this.
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I personally prefer separation of functionality with my devices, not a mad convergence & elimination of desktop-specific features. I want to like 8, but Metro is NOT what I want as my main GUI. I think we've gone down this road of differences already on this subject. Each to their own but MS shouldn't be telling me what to utilize when it involves their newest OS.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
Each to their own but MS shouldn't be telling me what to utilize when it involves their newest OS.
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QFT. Some people want this UI convergence, I do not, it's not the fact that some people want it that annoys me, it's the fact the choice is not there.
 
Metrocall said:
A perfect example is trying to shut down the system. Is it hard once you figure it out? No so much(Although it still takes twice as many clicks to get to it). But the fact I had to essentially Google how to doesn't speak well for it.
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The thing is though that most people that get Windows 8 will get it on mobile devices like laptops and tablets and they'll never turn them off that way. I wonder how many people don't know how to turn off their smart phones, people just don't normally think about it. And that's really been the way Windows for some time. Even today on a desktop it Windows 7 by default goes to sleep automatically.

This is just one of those things that just isn't an issue in reality. Most people won't ever turn off their device with the Power menu and devices today turn themselves off. It's just that some people have been doing the same way for so long and thinking about computers in terms of the 90's that when you look at it today there's just not a lot of reason or need to turn off a computer this way anymore.
 
Aaron11 said:
Just get over it. Metro is the new thing, and its probably not going away. I don't understand why people can't live with change.
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Being broke and homeless is a change too. Why don't people just live with it?



Saying all change is good is idiotic and asinine.
 
The whole convergence thing puzzles me a little. It's not like Apple is making the Mac run iOS. Sometimes making one platform handle everything makes all of the devices suffer.
While I've only used it for a little while, the whole thing looks to be nice for tablets, but it adds extra steps, clicks, and a learning curve for traditional desktops and laptops.
In the reviews I've seen, reviewers seem to love the touch functions...but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of positive comments about running it on a normal PC, which is what most of us are on.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
I personally prefer separation of functionality with my devices, not a mad convergence & elimination of desktop-specific features. I want to like 8, but Metro is NOT what I want as my main GUI. I think we've gone down this road of differences already on this subject. Each to their own but MS shouldn't be telling me what to utilize when it involves their newest OS.
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The only thing that's been eliminated is a 17 year old app launcher that was designed only to work with a mouse and keyboard. This simply hasn't impacted the way I use the desktop in any meaningful way. I spend the vast amount of time on the desktop in applications, applications that work just as they always have. But now is MUCH easier to launch applications when I'm not using keyboard and mouse.

And Microsoft has always told people how to do things in Windows. The Windows desktop has always been a one sized fits all approach. Microsoft's been telling me that I had to deal with a crappy app launcher that sucks with touch input.

Touch is now a mainstream input method in Windows as it should have been years ago. And while things are different when it actually comes to using desktop apps, it's just not all that different as much as people want to complain.

Yes things are different but I'm sitting here in front of dual screen desktop with only a mouse and keyboard I'm doing all the things I do with Windows 7 and it just isn't all that different in the 90% of the time actually using things on the desktop.

I just feel that if things were as bad as some Metro folks were saying I'd have more problems. Not saying that everything is perfect or couldn't be improved but definitely Microsoft did address a huge issue with the hot corners with multiple monitors. Not perfect is does not make Windows 8 much for usable for me on multiple monitors to the extent I actually like Windows 8 on multiple monitors better than 7 now. The Start Screen on a separate monitor works nicely.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
I see the 8 evangelism is strong in heatlesssun & chinesepiratefood. If apologetics regarding Metro were paid for by MS, money flows to the loudest voices on this subject.
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I would say it is more likely that whiners such as yourself are more vocal, but what do I know? :rolleyes: I throughly enjoy 8 myself but hey, just continue they way you are going, that just means more work for me.
 
Metrocall said:
A perfect example is trying to shut down the system. Is it hard once you figure it out? No so much(Although it still takes twice as many clicks to get to it). But the fact I had to essentially Google how to doesn't speak well for it.
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CTRL-i + The power icon & shutdown. Two clicks. Not horrible. It is quirky after being used to it sitting on the Start Menu after so many years but it's not bad enough to burn Balmer effigies.

Somebody else in the thread mentioned how the OS fights you. I feel like we're using completely different Window 8 installs. I don't see some requirement to use a 24" touchscreen all of a sudden with my x64 Win8 install as the mouse and keyboard are fine. The ARM WinRT will be on touchscreens but the x86/64 will work with a touchscreen. Added bonus stuff is bonus, even if you will never use it. The mouse wheel scrolls horizontally in the Start screen as it would scroll a webpage vertically. Some apps don't but that's the app's fault and not the OS. The MSNBC News app scrolls horizontally fine and I peek at it once in awhile for quickie news headlines or whatnot.

Does this replace where I 'live' in Windows? No. I tend to fire up Trillian first thing and then open Firefox or Chrome from the Taskbar since I'm staring at the desktop already. I don't use a lot of the Metro apps because they are either clumsy or not great and stick to mostly the traditional apps. Oddly I find the RDP Metro app the one I use all the time.

My point is nobody is forcing you to go all out Metro App Loving; do whatever works best for you. There's a few upgrades in the guts that I like and the interface doesn't phase me after using it for awhile. All this talk of, "Win8 sucks because the Metro IE10 is crap!" or my favorite, "I hate Win8 so much I will ditch my Win7 PCs that I love and get Macs" is exaggerated hyperbole to the extreme. Windows 8 did not burn your house down and steal your Wife. You don't have to like the UI appearance but some people do like it/don't mind it/doesn't matter because they live in the desktop so you can stop screaming it's Playskewl AOL. We get it, Windows 8 isn't what you imagined in your head so you hate it. Stick with Win7 then. It's a good OS. MS gets money from Win7 or Win8 licenses so they're not too worried. Windows 9 will probably drop the desktop altogether. Who knows.

If anything, ALL of you should try the Release Preview if you haven't used Win8 firsthand at all and give it a fair shake. Try out the Metro apps, go to the Marketplace store and scam some more freebie ones to play with. Install some of your traditional stuff like Chrome and whatever and go sit in the desktop for a couple of days and see if the corner mouseovers bother you. I rarely use them; I hit the Windows key to get at something in the glorified Start menu, top left to close some Metro app I don't want to use anymore and...that's it. At least if you try it and see what you like, what you don't like and what you couldn't care less about. Just don't be all, "Well, my friends say it's garbage and I want to be cool like them" when you do it. Chances are you will probably hate it but at least you tried it firsthand. It's always good to try stuff firsthand, much better to go thru the motions rather than looking at pictures or word of mouth. Besides you're on [H] so you're supposed to try all sorts of geeky things then either have a strong love or hate for it and spam the forums...and NEVER stop reminding everybody of your love/hate for product X. :D

/Ramble off
 
heatlesssun said:
The only thing that's been eliminated is a 17 year old app launcher that was designed only to work with a mouse and keyboard. This simply hasn't impacted the way I use the desktop in any meaningful way. I spend the vast amount of time on the desktop in applications, applications that work just as they always have. But now is MUCH easier to launch applications when I'm not using keyboard and mouse.

And Microsoft has always told people how to do things in Windows. The Windows desktop has always been a one sized fits all approach. Microsoft's been telling me that I had to deal with a crappy app launcher that sucks with touch input.

Touch is now a mainstream input method in Windows as it should have been years ago. And while things are different when it actually comes to using desktop apps, it's just not all that different as much as people want to complain.

Yes things are different but I'm sitting here in front of dual screen desktop with only a mouse and keyboard I'm doing all the things I do with Windows 7 and it just isn't all that different in the 90% of the time actually using things on the desktop.

I just feel that if things were as bad as some Metro folks were saying I'd have more problems. Not saying that everything is perfect or couldn't be improved but definitely Microsoft did address a huge issue with the hot corners with multiple monitors. Not perfect is does not make Windows 8 much for usable for me on multiple monitors to the extent I actually like Windows 8 on multiple monitors better than 7 now. The Start Screen on a separate monitor works nicely.
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Whether or not MS has been force feeding BS down the pipelines for years isn't the point. I still find Metro way abhorrent than start menu ever has been. I actually use RocketDock & taskbar-pinned shortcuts more often than the start menu in 7 anyways. Metro is very tablet & phone centric, which is why I'm not at all happy with it on the desktop. I don't mind change at all but when it comes like a thief in the night & steals the more from the desktop than what I'd care for, it's a definite negative change.
 
Tudz said:
QFT. Some people want this UI convergence, I do not, it's not the fact that some people want it that annoys me, it's the fact the choice is not there.
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But it's even more than convergence. Touch is simply a first class input method with Windows now. The other side of the argument is that why should a PC be an exception in the land of computing devices? It's not a desktop, or a laptop, or a tablet, its a PC that should be able to take the shape and size and utilize common input methods.

And while I understand your point Windows has always been about one size fits all when it comes to the desktop and never been very customizable and indeed very few people do customize Windows beyond wallpapers and other minor tweaks. Definitely not to the point of having different UIs based on input methods.
 
ManofGod said:
I would say it is more likely that whiners such as yourself are more vocal, but what do I know? :rolleyes: I throughly enjoy 8 myself but hey, just continue they way you are going, that just means more work for me.
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Ah yes, I'm a whiner for not seeing the viewpoints of the lovers of Metro. Thanks for placing me in a box & stamping "loud whiner" on my forehead. I'll take it to heart & never say anything against Metro again. :rolleyes:

I've seen a strong vocalization from both sides, so I really don't see your point.
 
CrimsonKnight13 said:
Ah yes, I'm a whiner for not seeing the viewpoints of the lovers of Metro. Thanks for placing me in a box & stamping "loud whiner" on my forehead. I'll take it to heart & never say anything against Metro again. :rolleyes:

I've seen a strong vocalization from both sides, so I really don't see your point.
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Perhaps because you did not make that as a point, but instead just pointed fingers. Since you can see it from both sides, if I read it correctly, then I retract what I said.
 
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