Will we have to re-buy iPad Edition apps?

[Deleted member 143938]

Who thinks developers will get greedy and release all those promised enhancements in separate apps?

Like the Brushes presentation. New app or is he going to add all those features into the current app?

I was pretty much sold on the iPad but this thought just came up. No way I'm rebuying all my touch apps

 

[badcaps]

Please explain how trying to make money off developing and updating a product is "getting greedy"?

 

[Deleted member 143938]

Please explain how trying to make money off developing and updating a product is "getting greedy"?

Updates and feature adding for free are already a norm on the app store.

There is really no excuse to charge extra for iPad support (no, an iPhone size app on an iPad is not support).

Seeing how Steve kept touting that all your iPhone apps will already work on the iPad (meaning he knows and expects iPhone users to buy the iPad), you wouldn't expect to have to rebuy ALL your apps to have good iPad compatibility (ie true full screen, not upscaling, and readable text)

 

[CEpeep]

AFAIK, it's always been at the discretion of the developer whether or not they want to charge for new major versions of their software. Plus, since existing iPhone apps are supported, even if the developer chooses to charge for a new version with iPad-specific features, you should be able to use the old iPhone version anyway.

 

[Deleted member 143938]

AFAIK, it's always been at the discretion of the developer whether or not they want to charge for new major versions of their software. Plus, since existing iPhone apps are supported, even if the developer chooses to charge for a new version with iPad-specific features, you should be able to use the old iPhone version anyway.

That's true but you will have pixelated graphics and text will be quite hard to read (according to Engadget and other tidbits I read who had hands-on with the iPad)

 

[phide]

My guess? Probably.

 

[Rombus]

Also keep in mind that these developers are not like Microsoft or any other large scale developer, alot of them are small single or few person operations. I dont mind spending a small amount on an upgrade knowing the quality tends to be higher than what the big outfits output.

 

[0ptional]

As said before, it's at the discretion of the developer if they want to split to a new app or bundle it all together. They did mention being able to sync all existing apps to the iPad without any trouble, but if those same apps will gain iPad support or if the developers will make a new iPad-only version, is again, up to the developer.

When the device is new, I can see a lot of sales happening to get the ball rolling.

 

[flyingturtle]

Also keep in mind that these developers are not like Microsoft or any other large scale developer, alot of them are small single or few person operations. I dont mind spending a small amount on an upgrade knowing the quality tends to be higher than what the big outfits output.

Yep. We put out an app for IPhone, but are planning to redo it for the iPad. Although it's a fairly simple app, we have to redo the graphics and coding. We are only a 3 team outfit and occasionally have to hire contractors so there are definite, non-trivial costs for us to upgrade to the iPad version.

 

[KaosDG]

Being an iPhone / mobile app developer, I take offense to the "getting greedy" stance you and many others take.

Its like users demand feature-adds be free. You do realize that developing an app has an expense associated with it, right?

Our bug fixes are always free. However new versions that contain new features and functionality that require more internal development time are priced accordingly.

Our current app base is being re-worked for the iPad now, and it's amazing to see how many people in our focus groups are too concerned over how much it's going to cost them.
the #1 question we get is "if I already have an iPhone version, Will I / why do I have to pay for the new iPad version?"

It's like saying "well I already own it for the XBox 360, why can't I get a free upgrade to the Ps3?"

 

[valve1138]

Since when is charging for work being greedy?

 

[phide]

Our current app base is being re-worked for the iPad now, and it's amazing to see how many people in our focus groups are too concerned over how much it's going to cost them.

I think it's going to a question of whether there will be an "upgrade price" for users who already own the iPhone versions of your apps. As an iPhone owner contemplating an iPad, I think it's a valid concern and something you should consider offering (if technically feasible) out of respect to your customers.

If an app is basically redesigned for the larger screen and the 'core' is left largely untouched, one could make the game expansion analogy. You don't pay full price for game expansions, nor should consumers expect to pay full price for what equates to an app facelift. Of course, if the app is rebuilt from the ground up for the iPad, full price is much more reasonable.

 

[Terpfen]

Its like users demand feature-adds be free. You do realize that developing an app has an expense associated with it, right?

They either don't recognize that or don't care.

 

[KaosDG]

I think it's going to a question of whether there will be an "upgrade price" for users who already own the iPhone versions of your apps. As an iPhone owner contemplating an iPad, I think it's a valid concern and something you should consider offering (if technically feasible) out of respect to your customers.

If an app is basically redesigned for the larger screen and the 'core' is left largely untouched, one could make the game expansion analogy. You don't pay full price for game expansions, nor should consumers expect to pay full price for what equates to an app facelift. Of course, if the app is rebuilt from the ground up for the iPad, full price is much more reasonable.

But it's not an "upgrade", in that sense. *YOU* "Upgraded" your device. So now you have to buy the app again, if you want the version specifically for your device.

If we put out version 2.0 of our app, on the same platform, then that's an upgrade.

If you buy our app for the iPhone, do you deserve upgrade pricing if you want it on a separate platform?
That's our prerogative to do, however most companies do not.

The game expansion analogy doesn't work here either.
I bought Dragon Age for XBox 360. Does that mean that I should go and buy the newly announced expansion/DLC for PC, and expect to get the full game (which i need) for free/reduced cost?

If you buy one of my games on J2ME, should I offer you an upgrade pricing if you decide to go to a Win-Mo phone, or Android, or some other platform?

If that was the case, then I should get upgrade pricing for MS office when I switched to Macintosh.

 

[Deleted member 143938]

I sent the Brushes dev an email asking if the iPad version will be a separate purchase:

Brushes for iPad will likely be a separate product since it involves significant development effort.

What huge bullfuckingshit.

What significant effort? Like changing the resolution of the canvas... and that's it?

Give me a break. If that isn't greed then I don't know what is.

 

[KaosDG]

I sent the Brushes dev an email asking if the iPad version will be a separate purchase:



What huge bullfuckingshit.

What significant effort? Like changing the resolution of the canvas... and that's it?

Give me a break. If that isn't greed then I don't know what is.

Do you know what is going on in their behind-the-scenes development?

Didn't think so.

 

[criccio]

Don't buy an iPad?

 

[Deleted member 143938]

Being an iPhone / mobile app developer, I take offense to the "getting greedy" stance you and many others take.

Its like users demand feature-adds be free. You do realize that developing an app has an expense associated with it, right?

Our bug fixes are always free. However new versions that contain new features and functionality that require more internal development time are priced accordingly.

Our current app base is being re-worked for the iPad now, and it's amazing to see how many people in our focus groups are too concerned over how much it's going to cost them.
the #1 question we get is "if I already have an iPhone version, Will I / why do I have to pay for the new iPad version?"

It's like saying "well I already own it for the XBox 360, why can't I get a free upgrade to the Ps3?"

Of course adding new features and bug fixes takes time and sometimes even money out of your own pocket. But if you look at the popular apps on the app store, namely games, you'll see that most devs keep pushing new features at a rather steady rate for free (Pocket God is the best example).

While I don't really have a problem paying like 20 cents out of my original 99 cent purchase for some additions, I shouldn't, because on the appstore I get these for free from many many many devs.

Now this trend will seem to change with the iPad.

 

[Deleted member 143938]

Do you know what is going on in their behind-the-scenes development?

Didn't think so.

No, but it doesn't take a lot to figure out there's not much more than what, 5 brushes in the app and just a blank canvas.

 

[KaosDG]

Of course adding new features and bug fixes takes time and sometimes even money out of your own pocket. But if you look at the popular apps on the app store, namely games, you'll see that most devs keep pushing new features at a rather steady rate for free (Pocket God is the best example).

While I don't really have a problem paying like 20 cents out of my original 99 cent purchase for some additions, I shouldn't, because on the appstore I get these for free from many many many devs.

Now this trend will seem to change with the iPad.

So because *some* companies let you get feature updates for free, all devs should do it? And on top of that, across different platforms as well?

 

[KaosDG]

No, but it doesn't take a lot to figure out there's not much more than what, 5 brushes in the app and just a blank canvas.

So where are your iphone / ipad apps?

Lets see them, before you pass judgement on someone elses development time / R&D.

Also, how do you know that Brushes is simply giong to be a rescaled iphone app? Maybe they will be adding more features?

 

[Deleted member 143938]

So because *some* companies let you get feature updates for free, all devs should do it? And on top of that, across different platforms as well?

When it comes to the consumer, for most apps the only "difference in platforms" will be a bigger screen. In games like Nova, I can totally justify a new purchase. The new horsepower will probably bring better graphics, and definitely requires a revamp of the UI and graphic sprites.

But in something as simple as a stripped down MS Paint program, that is just ridiculous

 

[KaosDG]

When it comes to the consumer, for most apps the only "difference in platforms" will be a bigger screen. In games like Nova, I can totally justify a new purchase. The new horsepower will probably bring better graphics, and definitely requires a revamp of the UI and graphic sprites.

But in something as simple as a stripped down MS Paint program, that is just ridiculous

Keywords here: "When it comes to the consumer"

But on the development side, there could be significant code changes required to support that platform.

I'm sorry in advance if I offend your frugalities in software purchases, but I am not going to just give away something that costs me and my company quite a bit to develop.

Even the "simple" thing like scaling it for a bigger screen is going to take some expense to get done.
The company needs the device (most of the time Apple does not give you one for free)
as well as man hours (developer time, artwork time, QA time, submission time, etc, etc)

 

[Deleted member 143938]

So where are your iphone / ipad apps?

Lets see them, before you pass judgement on someone elses development time / R&D.

Also, how do you know that Brushes is simply giong to be a rescaled iphone app? Maybe they will be adding more features?

Just because I'm not a developer does not mean I'm not entitled to my view as a consumer.

As a consumer, I see that *currently*, all the top sellers (and all the good games), pump out frequent feature additions for free. Features much more involved than adding a couple of new brushes or something as trivial as going into the code and changing the canvas resolution from 600x400 or whatever to 1024x768.

As that consumer, it's quite a shock to now have to pay a whole new purchase price for an app I basically own, for something like a canvas resize.

As that consumer I don't care what goes on in the background, I just see the canvas resize and maybe a couple of brushes, and that does not justify a whole new purchase.

I do hope most devs will offer a free iPad upgrade, but who knows until the iPad is finally out. But it's not looking good so far.

 

[KaosDG]

Just because I'm not a developer does not mean I'm not entitled to my view as a consumer.

As a consumer, I see that *currently*, all the top sellers (and all the good games), pump out frequent feature additions for free. Features much more involved than adding a couple of new brushes or something as trivial as going into the code and changing the canvas resolution from 600x400 or whatever to 1024x768.

As that consumer, it's quite a shock to now have to pay a whole new purchase price for an app I basically own, for something like a canvas resize.

As that consumer I don't care what goes on in the background, I just see the canvas resize and maybe a couple of brushes, and that does not justify a whole new purchase.

I do hope most devs will offer a free iPad upgrade, but who knows until the iPad is finally out. But it's not looking good so far.

But that's the problem. You *DON'T* already own the app.

You own a *VERSION* of the App, for a different platform.

 

[Deleted member 143938]

Keywords here: "When it comes to the consumer"

But on the development side, there could be significant code changes required to support that platform.

I'm sorry in advance if I offend your frugalities in software purchases, but I am not going to just give away something that costs me and my company quite a bit to develop.

Even the "simple" thing like scaling it for a bigger screen is going to take some expense to get done.
The company needs the device (most of the time Apple does not give you one for free)
as well as man hours (developer time, artwork time, QA time, submission time, etc, etc)

Yes but again, it's not a matter of wether or not you should pay for an upgrade, it's more of "we already get these updates and more for free, why should we now pay extra because the same device with just a bigger screen is out?". Devs found a reason to charge extra when before they knew that if they would, people would go to another app that provides the same features for free.

 

[KaosDG]

Yes but again, it's not a matter of wether or not you should pay for an upgrade, it's more of "we already get these updates and more for free, why should we now pay extra because the same device with just a bigger screen is out?". Devs found a reason to charge extra when before they knew that if they would, people would go to another app that provides the same features for free.

Because the key issue here is you get these upgrades for free, *on the same platform*

You should have to pay for the app again, because Now you are using it on ANOTHER device.

In the desktop software world, when a cross-platform upgrade is offered there is generally a mechanism involved that disallows the use of the original platform, once the new platform is activated.
Unless that can be accomplished via the app store (i doubt it) then there's no guarantee that you now have 2 copies of the app, and you got one for free.

 

[phide]

If you buy our app for the iPhone, do you deserve upgrade pricing if you want it on a separate platform? That's our prerogative to do, however most companies do not.

That I would consider a "double-dip". If we have an app that offers the same core features as the iPhone version with a rescaled UI optimized for the iPad, and if a user has already purchased the iPhone app, an "upgrade" price, I think, makes sense. If the app's been substantially rearchitected for the iPad, then iPad owners will recognize the value and be more willing to accept paying full price.

I bought Dragon Age for XBox 360. Does that mean that I should go and buy the newly announced expansion/DLC for PC, and expect to get the full game (which i need) for free/reduced cost?

You keep using words such as "deserve" and "expect" to suggest user entitlement. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm talking about developers providing reduced prices to show loyalty to its existing customers. Mere good business practice, wouldn't you say?

To answer your question, in certain circumstances, yes. I've argued for largely platform-agnostic content pricing (a per-license pricing model) before as it to pertains to cross-platform games. In many instances, I think it makes a substantial amount of sense.

If you buy one of my games on J2ME, should I offer you an upgrade pricing if you decide to go to a Win-Mo phone, or Android, or some other platform?

If it makes sense given the extent of the effort invested into developing that game for another platform, yes, possibly. If we assume that 10% of the source code has been modified to port the game to a different platform, and if the user already has purchased the game for a J2ME phone, then that user would certainly appreciate a reduced price on the game for another platform. I'm not suggesting that the price be 10%, but 50%, 70% -- some sort of discount would be welcome.

If that was the case, then I should get upgrade pricing for MS office when I switched to Macintosh.

Do you feel it makes sense to compare the transition from the iPhone to the iPad to the transition from Windows to OS X?

 

[Cyant]

But it's not an "upgrade", in that sense. *YOU* "Upgraded" your device. So now you have to buy the app again, if you want the version specifically for your device.

If we put out version 2.0 of our app, on the same platform, then that's an upgrade.

If you buy our app for the iPhone, do you deserve upgrade pricing if you want it on a separate platform?
That's our prerogative to do, however most companies do not.

The game expansion analogy doesn't work here either.
I bought Dragon Age for XBox 360. Does that mean that I should go and buy the newly announced expansion/DLC for PC, and expect to get the full game (which i need) for free/reduced cost?

If you buy one of my games on J2ME, should I offer you an upgrade pricing if you decide to go to a Win-Mo phone, or Android, or some other platform?

If that was the case, then I should get upgrade pricing for MS office when I switched to Macintosh.

If I buy game X made for 4:3 screen ratio and then a year later when I upgrade to a 16:9 monitor and the company release an updated version to support 16:9 screens with no other major feature upgrades. Should I be expected to buy the game again to make it work? Even you would consider this greedy.

Your comparaison doesn't stand. Its not a different platform. Its the same platform with a faster CPU and a bigger screen.

 

[KaosDG]

That I would consider a "double-dip". If we have an app that offers the same core features as the iPhone version with a rescaled UI optimized for the iPad, and if a user has already purchased the iPhone app, an "upgrade" price, I think, makes sense. If the app's been substantially rearchitected for the iPad, then iPad owners will recognize the value and be more willing to accept paying full price.

I don't argue this point, in fact I support it, to an extent. I support the "one time" or "limited time" upgrade option.

You keep using words such as "deserve" and "expect" to suggest user entitlement. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm talking about developers providing reduced prices to show loyalty to its existing customers. Mere good business practice, wouldn't you say?

I use those words because based on my experience on this industry, reading actual user comments/bug reports/feature requestes, 90% of people do feel entitled to everything for free. Hell, even with my work on free open-source projects some of the expectation is astounding.

To answer your question, in certain circumstances, yes. I've argued for largely platform-agnostic content pricing (a per-license pricing model) before as it to pertains to cross-platform games. In many instances, I think it makes a substantial amount of sense.

I argue for this as well. Honestly I don't see why a game should cost $60 on XBox/PS3 but only $50 on PC or $40 on Wii... But it is still a per-license model, like you say. If I buy that game on one platform, does that mean I should be able to also get DVDs for the other platforms, free of charge, and able to use any platform at-will?
I respect Blizzard for offering both Windows and Mac binaries on a majority of their games. However, given that it's one license you can only use it on one platform. (At least in practice... it's an "honor system")

If it makes sense given the extent of the effort invested into developing that game for another platform, yes, possibly. If we assume that 10% of the source code has been modified to port the game to a different platform, and if the user already has purchased the game for a J2ME phone, then that user would certainly appreciate a reduced price on the game for another platform. I'm not suggesting that the price be 10%, but 50%, 70% -- some sort of discount would be welcome.

I'm sure users would appreciate it, but there is a LOT of work involved porting J2ME to BREW, Objective-C, Android, Windows Mobile, etc.
They all work ENTIRELY differently, and require a fair amount of re-tooling to get them working. Couple that with the fact that profit margins on mobile development are so terribly thin, offering a discount on an app that is already priced low, there's no fiscal incentive offer a discount. At that point, we may as well just give away the app, and end up bleeding money paying the various carriers and certification houses to get our apps out there. (There's a reason why there are no free apps on normal cell phones)

Do you feel it makes sense to compare the transition from the iPhone to the iPad to the transition from Windows to OS X?

My point was that if I paid for a PC version of Office, should I get the OS X version of Office for free / cheaper if I transition to OS X. After all, it's the same core functionality, just with different window dressings.

 

[CEpeep]

If I buy game X made for 4:3 screen ratio and then a year later when I upgrade to a 16:9 monitor and the company release an updated version to support 16:9 screens with no other major feature upgrades. Should I be expected to buy the game again to make it work? Even you would consider this greedy.

What? Have you seen Nintendo's "New Play Control" game series for Wii? It's just Gamecube games updated with new Wii controls. The games themselves are the same. These games sell for slightly less than other 1st party Wii games, but still at a full retail price, and they sell pretty well. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Apple seems to have done something to create a sense of entitlement among owners of apps that they will be getting an improved version of all their apps for free. All they said was that it would be backwards compatible. When Blu-Ray players came out, I didn't see a bunch of people complaining they didn't get a free upgrade to Blu-Ray versions of their DVDs, even though the movies are the same just in higher definition. If you don't like it, then the very best thing you can do is not buy it.

tl;dr: quit complaining, this happens all the time.

 

[jay2472000]

Buy a netbook, Install Win7, save hundreds of dollars


I can see a person wanting a discount for being loyal, with apps we have kind of gotten used to that, but then again, its up to the developer I suppose. Luckily for us its a free market and we can buy what we want, and not what we dont want.

Im also sure if enough people whine, Apple would probably put some leverage on the developers. IDK, be interesting to see.

 

[osalcido]

yes

 

[Terpfen]

Buy a netbook, Install Win7, save hundreds of dollars

Given that netbooks are creeping up to the iPad's lowest price point, I don't see much of a savings in that route.

 

[amromousa]

The primary reason top apps (e.g. Pocket God and Doodle Jump) continue to give away updates is it helps keep the revenue coming. I wouldn't expect it for free, though, because most apps do not make enough to warrant free feature updates forever. When you buy an app, you're buying the current feature set. Like it or not, that's how it is. It just so happens that many developers try to go the extra mile for users, which is a good thing.

It would be great if Apple provided a way to allow users to upgrade between two separate releases of an app at a reduced price set by developers of said app.

And really man, you have no idea how much work it takes to create decent software or take even the most trivial software and make sure it works properly on a new device. Most software on the App Store is sold for pennies on the dollar relative to the developer's time it takes to make it. That's what the market will handle and most hope to make it up in volume. For the VAST majority of developers, this does not pay off on the App Store.

 

[jay2472000]

Ipad, starts at 500. I got my Acer Aspire for under 3 bills, with OS installed. Guess how many apps $200 buys So, we have Ipad , $500. Aspire $300. Add another $200 for apps....and then the priceless ability to do flash........IDK man, this Ipad thing seriously doesnt look like a winner.


Also, I find it strange that people will buy a device for 500 dollars, then whine about a $30 dollar app. I suppose that for so long people are used to getting free or reduced upgrades. And considering how this isnt a whole new OS, I kind of agree with them. Granted depending on the complexity of said program it may very well be quite time consuming to have to recode, but if its just a matter of changing a few lines, then I would think the ones who did it free first would eventually smother the ones that didnt ( a la Wal Mart style) and then be abloe to charge the next time around due to the herd being thinned so to speak.


EDIT : Perusing the Apple site, it seems as though, ( intentional or not) Apple seems to be pushing the idea all your Iphone apps will work. While this may be true, they make no mention of having to repurchase apps. This adding to the confusion.

 

[Deleted member 143938]

Ipad, starts at 500. I got my Acer Aspire for under 3 bills, with OS installed. Guess how many apps $200 buys So, we have Ipad , $500. Aspire $300. Add another $200 for apps....and then the priceless ability to do flash........IDK man, this Ipad thing seriously doesnt look like a winner.


Also, I find it strange that people will buy a device for 500 dollars, then whine about a $30 dollar app. I suppose that for so long people are used to getting free or reduced upgrades. And considering how this isnt a whole new OS, I kind of agree with them. Granted depending on the complexity of said program it may very well be quite time consuming to have to recode, but if its just a matter of changing a few lines, then I would think the ones who did it free first would eventually smother the ones that didnt ( a la Wal Mart style) and then be abloe to charge the next time around due to the herd being thinned so to speak.


EDIT : Perusing the Apple site, it seems as though, ( intentional or not) Apple seems to be pushing the idea all your Iphone apps will work. This adding to the confusion.

Do you own a Mac? I don't know about you, but for many Mac users after you get a Mac, you don't go back. I'll gladly pay more for simplicity, streamlining, and lack of features I'll never need or use

And yes, iPhone apps are supposed to work, but they won't natively be full screen. The iPad will double pixel the app, so text will be really bad looking and some graphics probably will as well

 

[jay2472000]

Do you own a Mac? I don't know about you, but for many Mac users after you get a Mac, you don't go back. I'll gladly pay more for simplicity, streamlining, and lack of features I'll never need or use

And yes, iPhone apps are supposed to work, but they won't natively be full screen. The iPad will double pixel the app, so text will be really bad looking and some graphics probably will as well

Does my owning a Mac matter? Would my opinion carry more weight if I did or didnt? And while I agree that many Mac owners are very very satisfied, I dont think the Ipads gonna be a great success. I am typing this as I multitask on my $300 netbook watching flash videos ( you realize 75% of the webs animations are flash right? )

Mac vs PC aside, I think that just because you bought an app for an Iphone doesnt necessarily give you the right to have the same software installed on another device. Obviously, thats gonna be up to the individual developers.

EDIT :: I see that the apps are supposed to work, but will you have to pay for them ?? I thought that was the question.

Like I said, it seems trivial that people will pay so much for the newest shiniest piece of hardware, and give so little thought into what makes it actually run.

 

[amromousa]

Does my owning a Mac matter? Would my opinion carry more weight if I did or didnt? And while I agree that many Mac owners are very very satisfied, I dont think the Ipads gonna be a great success. I am typing this as I multitask on my $300 netbook watching flash videos ( you realize 75% of the webs animations are flash right? )

Mac vs PC aside, I think that just because you bought an app for an Iphone doesnt necessarily give you the right to have the same software installed on another device. Obviously, thats gonna be up to the individual developers.

EDIT :: I see that the apps are supposed to work, but will you have to pay for them ?? I thought that was the question.

Like I said, it seems trivial that people will pay so much for the newest shiniest piece of hardware, and give so little thought into what makes it actually run.

No, you don't have to pay for iPhone apps you've already purchased. Although they will run on the iPad, they will either be scaled up (not look so great..) or run in the middle of the screen w/ a big black border around them. That wasn't the OP's question though. His question is whether or not developers would release iPad specific versions w/ new art, redesigned UI, and possibly new features for free to users who had already purchased their iPhone apps.

 

[jay2472000]

Right, And I say, I believe its up to the developer. As far as "whats fair", well, if they have sold a boatload of a certain app, and it doesnt take too much to change, I would think free would be in order. Now, if it was either 1) they sold very little of the app, or 2) It is gonna be a lot of work, then they should charge.