WiFi 7 isn't supported on Windows 10

philb2 said:
When I worked for various cypersecurity companies, sales guys used to say that corporate customers called only AFTER they got hacked badly.
Click to expand...
That is 100% the truth. Slowly, very slowly, companies are starting to try and improve the cybersecurity posture proactively. Most though are still in a reactive state where they don't do anything until something happens. End users are even worse, you see people all over who just never want to update anything, ever, and view it all as some major interruption to their work.

So I am all on board with forced upgrades of end-user shit. Heck I'm even getting that way with enterprise stuff, because some sysadmins can be jackasses. Patching OSes and applications are 2 of the ACSCs Essential Eight, which are 8 things that if a business does, they are going to stop cold 90%+ of cyber attacks.
 
1_rick said:
No, that's something like an AGP to PCIe converter (?). It's definitely not a wifi card.
Click to expand...
philb2 said:
Am I seeing this right? A Wi-FI NIC without connections for the antenna?

Also, it seems to have a slot extender. I wish more PCIE cards had slot extenders. My AMD x670E motherboard has only 2 x16 and 1, yes 1, x1 slot. I wish the mboard had at least 2 more X1 or at least one X4.
Click to expand...
It's a PCI-to-PCIe adapter, so that the PCIe Wi-Fi 7 NIC can be utilized.
Checks out your forum join-dates... Yep, you both probably wouldn't recognize 32-bit PCI, and I am old. :oldman:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wat
like this
Sycraft said:
If those really bother you, you can shut them off with a registry key.
Click to expand...
No you can't. Microsoft flips them back on all the time, without any warning. Updating the OS will defeat any tool you use to turn them off. The fact that you need to go into the registry shows that Microsoft has no intention of letting you turn this feature off.
Though I'd not both Android and iOS do the same thing so it is just kinda something you have to accept these days.
Click to expand...
No you don't. I use Linux Mint and they aren't collecting any telemetry data, and neither is my Android phone because it runs LineageOS. The problem is that switching over to Linux or a custom Android rom is about as difficult as shifting through the registry.
That said, while I'm not a fan of telemetry, forced updates I like. People get themselves in to shit all the time with old systems that haven't been updated for years because "I don't need it," or "I know what I'm doing with computers." If we want better cybersecurity, we need devices to get patched fast, and that will only happen if you force it on people. Most users just ignore updates until it blows up in their face, and then complain that MS didn't defend them.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't be a problem if the updates didn't fuck with shit, like they often do. I don't mean break things, I mean that Microsoft decided to remove a program or moved the options for a menu to another location.
 
DukenukemX said:
No you can't. Microsoft flips them back on all the time, without any warning. Updating the OS will defeat any tool you use to turn them off. The fact that you need to go into the registry shows that Microsoft has no intention of letting you turn this feature off.

No you don't. I use Linux Mint and they aren't collecting any telemetry data, and neither is my Android phone because it runs LineageOS. The problem is that switching over to Linux or a custom Android rom is about as difficult as shifting through the registry.

Wouldn't be a problem if the updates didn't fuck with shit, like they often do. I don't mean break things, I mean that Microsoft decided to remove a program or moved the options for a menu to another location.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
It amazes me that any of this is still even a discussion at this point, let alone a debate.

People need to remember that they do not own their copy of Windows 10/11, they only own a license to use it, and said license includes restrictions on what they can do with "their" OS.
Those updates do break so much, and do absolutely remove much-used features all of the time, not to mention resetting all kinds of settings, customizations, etc. without any change log or warning.
 
Lakados said:
Vista was a different animal, at the 13’th hour Microsoft closed direct kernel access and forced vendors to use the API.
The story is HP or Creative or somebody pissed off Balmer and he said something like Fuck it force them too! And they closed off Kernel access and some legacy XP/2000 stuff between the final beta and the gold and only told them after it was done and at that stage a month or so before the actual launch date. So lots of vendors said well fuck it we aren’t writing new drivers for those products.
Click to expand...

I don't remember anything about the timeline, but IIRC the reason MS kicked audio drivers out of the Vista kernel was that they did some analytics on their crash data and the two biggest sources of kernel crashes from 3rd party components were failing nForce4 chipsets and buggy Creative audio drivers.
 
Lakados said:
Personally, I am not sure who would be purchasing a new device with new hardware and then trying to downgrade to Windows 10, and I don't know many people who would go through the trouble of replacing the WiFi module in their existing Win 10 devices to a WiFi 7 one, so I am sure driver support for it isn't exactly something that is in demand.
Click to expand...
Not yet, because Wifi7 isn't even finalized until 2024, but I often update the wifi/bluetooth cards on older systems that are otherwise perfectly good. Just recently slapped a new wifi 6e card on my kitchen computer for example to match the router.

The reason for not upgrading to W11 is that Microsoft says its not compatible. Most people are just browsing the web, consuming youtube/plex/netflix, maye office suite, really nothing that requires a totally new computer. Wifi speeds you can notice if doing backups and the like to NAS but even doubling the processing power on a new laptop is not likely to even be noticed.
 
GotNoRice said:
It's not a problem for Windows either.
Click to expand...
According to the specs, it is for anyone using Windows 10.
If this is finalized by 2024, that's great unless Windows 10 is being used, which doesn't go EOL for general support until 2025.

It's probably niche enough that Microsoft weighed their options and don't care for the "minority" of individuals this will affect, so they will move forward with it.
If anything it is just a further excuse to allow for more marketing to push for Windows 11, so win-win for Microsoft and lose-lose for everyone else.
 
Red Falcon said:
It's a PCI-to-PCIe adapter, so that the PCIe Wi-Fi 7 NIC can be utilized.
Checks out your forum join-dates... Yep, you both probably wouldn't recognize 32-bit PCI, and I am old. :oldman:
Click to expand...
Uh. I do recognize PCI. And I also remember 8 bit and 16 bit ISA slots, plus the AGP slot. And the extra wide 32-slots on motherboards that had 16 bit ISA slots. Back in the day, I had an ASUS A7M-266D board.

Would you believe S-100? How old does that make me? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
ManofGod said:
For home use, yes but for corporate use, nope.
Click to expand...
It’s dead there too mostly as well, there’s too many issues with 10 security wise that are fixed in 11. And 11 does a much better job at local encryption and SAML service integration with O365, Google, Dropbox, and even iCloud. And if you are running encrypted network shares than 10 is a waste of time, 11 deals with encrypted file shares far better, does instantly what 10 machines take seconds of churning to accomplish.

11 is also easier to shut down telemetry and advertising because of its better integration with Intune than 10.

11 also has fewer compatibility problems, I mean I have old pension software that needs to be kept running and for that on 10 we needed to run an XP VM. I can run it natively in 11, hell it runs in Windows 11 Arm being emulated through Parallels on a M1 or M2 based Mac.

So yeah, for business or enterprise you really shouldn’t be using 10 unless you have a really good reason to be. Because the amount of time and resources spent working around 10’s issues at this stage is likely more expensive and time consuming than the upgrade process.
 
philb2 said:
Uh. I do recognize PCI. And I also remember 8 bit and 16 bit ISA slots, plus the AGP slot. And the extra wide 32-slots on motherboards that had 16 bit ISA slots. Back in the day, I had an ASUS A7M-266D board.

Would you believe S-100? How old does that make me? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Any of you ever have to spend time troubleshooting printing issues with an Impact (hammer) printer on a token ring network connecting back to an IBM Mainframe.

Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to crawl back to my coffin.
 
DukenukemX said:
No you can't. Microsoft flips them back on all the time, without any warning. Updating the OS will defeat any tool you use to turn them off. The fact that you need to go into the registry shows that Microsoft has no intention of letting you turn this feature off.
Click to expand...
Not in my observation.
DukenukemX said:
Wouldn't be a problem if the updates didn't fuck with shit, like they often do. I don't mean break things, I mean that Microsoft decided to remove a program or moved the options for a menu to another location.
Click to expand...
No, they don't. We apply updates, on release day, at work to about 1500 systems. It goes literal years in-between problems, and the problems are easily resolved. Last one I remember was an issue with wifi, caused issues on about 5 systems, a rollback fixed it until a fix for the update came out. That was probably 3-4 years ago.
 
Sycraft said:
Not in my observation.

No, they don't. We apply updates, on release day, at work to about 1500 systems. It goes literal years in-between problems, and the problems are easily resolved. Last one I remember was an issue with wifi, caused issues on about 5 systems, a rollback fixed it until a fix for the update came out. That was probably 3-4 years ago.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I remember that one, they messed up encryption for WPA2 and forced things to WPA3 on hardware that didn’t support it correctly total shit show that week was.
 
Lakados said:
Yeah, I remember that one, they messed up encryption for WPA2 and forced things to WPA3 on hardware that didn’t support it correctly total shit show that week was.
Click to expand...
Strangely it was only a select kind of wifi chips it affected. We had very few systems with issues. Now granted we have a lot of wired systems that wouldn't have had problems, but we had plenty of wireless ones that didn't either. It was only very few, about 5. After about the 3rd call we researched it and found out that this was a known issue and just started rolling back the patch on systems with an issue. It was annoying, but no big deal. Far less annoying than a system getting owned all to hell because it hasn't been patched in years.
 
Sycraft said:
Strangely it was only a select kind of wifi chips it affected. We had very few systems with issues. Now granted we have a lot of wired systems that wouldn't have had problems, but we had plenty of wireless ones that didn't either. It was only very few, about 5. After about the 3rd call we researched it and found out that this was a known issue and just started rolling back the patch on systems with an issue. It was annoying, but no big deal. Far less annoying than a system getting owned all to hell because it hasn't been patched in years.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it only messed me up for users who had single sign-on enabled connecting to a Radius authenticated network, and had Broadcom Wi-Fi chips everybody else was fine.
Sadly for me, that was basically all of the admin teams.
 
we had a handful of HP laptops hit with that. rolled back the drivers via device manager and it was working again in 30s.
 
DanNeely said:
I don't remember anything about the timeline, but IIRC the reason MS kicked audio drivers out of the Vista kernel was that they did some analytics on their crash data and the two biggest sources of kernel crashes from 3rd party components were failing nForce4 chipsets and buggy Creative audio drivers.
Click to expand...
So instead of working with vendors to fix the problem, Microsoft just killed the sound card market. Nobody using Windows XP was reporting crashes due to sound card drivers. It's not like going to software audio rendering was going to make the driver problem go away. Microsoft made the shit up.
Sycraft said:
Not in my observation.
Click to expand...
You mean you never noticed that registry changes that turned off telemetry wouldn't come back after a major Windows 10 update for you? It did for a lot of people.
No, they don't. We apply updates, on release day, at work to about 1500 systems. It goes literal years in-between problems, and the problems are easily resolved. Last one I remember was an issue with wifi, caused issues on about 5 systems, a rollback fixed it until a fix for the update came out. That was probably 3-4 years ago.
Click to expand...
I'm not talking about bugs Microsoft introduces. I'm talking about times when Microsoft's update actually remove programs or brings them back, which happens often for some people. I'm talking about when major Windows 10 updates would move certain settings around because Microsoft wanted to play "catch me if you can". Certain Windows updates like to reset settings to defaults, which is why telemetry changes done in the registry can be turned back on. This is all due to frequent updates that Microsoft imposes onto users. If Microsoft respected the changes people make on the OS then these frequent updates wouldn't be a problem.
 
DukenukemX said:
So instead of working with vendors to fix the problem, Microsoft just killed the sound card market. Nobody using Windows XP was reporting crashes due to sound card drivers. It's not like going to software audio rendering was going to make the driver problem go away. Microsoft made the shit up
Click to expand...
I would argue that the entire beta period where Microsoft was showcasing, documenting, and debugging their new API’s and sending them back the reports was working with them.
The response from Creative, HP, Nvidia, and a few others was “lol no, we want direct unfiltered kernel access, we’re not re writing all those drivers and you can’t make us”!

I mean HP settled more than a few lawsuits over Vista and their attitudes around it and their drivers. Creative imploded, and Nvidia stopped making chipsets.

Creatives XP drivers were shit, and they killed the sound card market what we miss is the work they stole from Aureal.
 
I run 11 on my HTPC, and 10 on everything else. I hate the right click menu in 11, I'm not a fan of how some things are organized. But these are things I can overcome.

But something no one has ever told me, is whats better about 11? If it's all "future" tech shit, like wifi 7, then why bother switching now. What about 11 is better NOW?
 
Ehren8879 said:
Why?
Click to expand...
Mostly poor compatibility, there are 3 different standards for 2.5gbe, they each interact differently with each other and in real buildings with stuff being routed through ceilings with bad ballasts, old hvac motors, etc it is very easy for the signals to never negotiate or suffer constant packet collisions.

I use 2.5 for my wifi AP’s but they are brand locked, Aruba to Aruba, and they have Cat6A in dedicated runs to and from. And it now works, but my Buffalo NAS which is also 2.5gbe that I use for log storage doesn’t work on that same switch at 2.5, have to manually set duplex to 1G for it to ever connect.

2.5 has been a pain since day 1 and it mostly got skipped right to 10.
 
Lakados said:
Creatives XP drivers were shit, and they killed the sound card market what we miss is the work they stole from Aureal.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say it's Creative's drivers which were crap, but their use of EAX and how they forced everyone to use it. It ran on top of Direct Sound3D, which Microsoft killed with Vista. So they had to go with OpenAL, which hardly anyone used. The problem was that other sound cards that used hardware acceleration were also dependent on Direct Sound3D. Either way it was a battle of Creative vs Microsoft and Microsoft won. The sound card industry was never better for it.
rgMekanic said:
I run 11 on my HTPC, and 10 on everything else. I hate the right click menu in 11, I'm not a fan of how some things are organized. But these are things I can overcome.

But something no one has ever told me, is whats better about 11? If it's all "future" tech shit, like wifi 7, then why bother switching now. What about 11 is better NOW?
Click to expand...
The purpose of Windows 11 is to force everyone onto Microsoft's DRM platform, which is using TPM2.0. Anything Windows 11 has, could have been a major update to Windows 10, but without forcing people to adopt TPM2.0 and Secure Boot, then no software developers would ever put their software on the Microsoft Store. When Windows 10's support ends you either adopt Windows 11 or get hacked due to a lack of security updates.
 
Red Falcon said:
According to the specs, it is for anyone using Windows 10.
If this is finalized by 2024, that's great unless Windows 10 is being used, which doesn't go EOL for general support until 2025.

It's probably niche enough that Microsoft weighed their options and don't care for the "minority" of individuals this will affect, so they will move forward with it.
If anything it is just a further excuse to allow for more marketing to push for Windows 11, so win-win for Microsoft and lose-lose for everyone else.
Click to expand...

Not adding wifi 7 is in line with the support model they've used for every other recentish version of Windows. Their documentation for 10's a hot mess because of their flirting with it being a forever version; but for the last few versions before it (and server versions all along) the 10 year support life cycle was 5 years of new features, and 5 years of bug fixes.
 
DukenukemX said:
So instead of working with vendors to fix the problem, Microsoft just killed the sound card market. Nobody using Windows XP was reporting crashes due to sound card drivers. It's not like going to software audio rendering was going to make the driver problem go away. Microsoft made the shit up.
Click to expand...


You just flat out wrong here. Anything crashing in the kernel will take down any normal modern OS because it means the OS can no longer trust its internal state to be good; crashes in userland drivers are the same as crashes in ordinary applications. They can't break the OS when they die, so they're safe to restart and keep going.

Not having that level of separation and hard faulting - combined with generally buggy code - was why win 9x installs would gradually rot after a few days of uptime until they started glitching in ways that annoyed users into rebooting. It was also one of the reasons behind research into micro-kernel OSes decades ago. The idea was that by making the kernel itself extremely small it was less likely for a bug to take the OS down; in practice they failed for normal use due to the overhead from needing to switch between kernel and usermode far more frequently than OSes with conventional large kernels. (The overhead from the context switching - specifically the increased CPU/power load it caused was a factor in MS bringing audio back into the kernel in a later version to improve laptop battery life.)
 
Last edited:
DukenukemX said:
I wouldn't say it's Creative's drivers which were crap, but their use of EAX and how they forced everyone to use it. It ran on top of Direct Sound3D, which Microsoft killed with Vista. So they had to go with OpenAL, which hardly anyone used. The problem was that other sound cards that used hardware acceleration were also dependent on Direct Sound3D. Either way it was a battle of Creative vs Microsoft and Microsoft won. The sound card industry was never better for it.

The purpose of Windows 11 is to force everyone onto Microsoft's DRM platform, which is using TPM2.0. Anything Windows 11 has, could have been a major update to Windows 10, but without forcing people to adopt TPM2.0 and Secure Boot, then no software developers would ever put their software on the Microsoft Store. When Windows 10's support ends you either adopt Windows 11 or get hacked due to a lack of security updates.
Click to expand...

Except that the only thing enforcing TMP2 is the installer. If you diddle with it, you can install and run on TPMless systems just fine. So they're not actually forcing anyone who doesn't want to use TPM to do so and are still taking the support cost/attack surface from all the non-TPM codepaths. And 99% of Win10 systems had TPM 2 anyway; the volume licences MS sold to Dell/HP/etc have required using whatever the current version of TPM was for many years already. Enthusiast systems almost never bothered, but we're not even a rounding error in the Windows userbase anymore.
 
Lakados said:
Any of you ever have to spend time troubleshooting printing issues with an Impact (hammer) printer on a token ring network connecting back to an IBM Mainframe.
Click to expand...

Like a 1403? I remember those from my college days. :D
Lakados said:
Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to crawl back to my coffin.
Click to expand...
What is the rent? Or is it a condo that you own?:ROFLMAO:
 
DanNeely said:
You just flat out wrong here. Anything crashing in the kernel will take down any normal modern OS because it means the OS can no longer trust its internal state to be good; crashes in userland drivers are the same as crashes in ordinary applications. They can't break the OS when they die, so they're safe to restart and keep going.
Click to expand...
You do know that Microsoft required graphic drivers for Vista to be able to crash and not take down the system? That's one of the reasons why the graphic drivers for Vista sucked, because they had to be rewritten. Microsoft could have done that for the sound drivers.
DanNeely said:
Except that the only thing enforcing TMP2 is the installer. If you diddle with it, you can install and run on TPMless systems just fine. So they're not actually forcing anyone who doesn't want to use TPM to do so and are still taking the support cost/attack surface from all the non-TPM codepaths. And 99% of Win10 systems had TPM 2 anyway; the volume licences MS sold to Dell/HP/etc have required using whatever the current version of TPM was for many years already. Enthusiast systems almost never bothered, but we're not even a rounding error in the Windows userbase anymore.
Click to expand...
Tricking Windows 11 to install on a none existing TPM2.0 system doesn't count. Most people would rather continue to use Windows 10 instead of deal with that level of hackery. The idea is that for 99% of Windows 11 systems out in the wild, will have TPM2.0 and Microsoft can leverage it as DRM for Windows. Even though Windows 10 did make use of TPM2.0, it wasn't reliable enough for developers to make use of it, because it wasn't required. No DRM scheme prior to Windows 11 has ever actually used the TPM as a component, but we see applications now making use of them, like Valorant. The whole TPM thing isn't new and had been rejected many times, in fear that Microsoft would use it for this reason. Pluton in the Xbox consoles could be the next big requirement for future Windows releases for all we know. It's the same idea that Apple has done, as you can't watch Netflix in 4K without a T2 chip in Apple computers. These are just hardware versions of Denuvo.

This is why I dumped Windows a year and half ago for Linux, because I know the direction Microsoft is taking Windows and I don't want to be part of that.
 
DukenukemX said:
Tricking Windows 11 to install on a none existing TPM2.0 system doesn't count. Most people would rather continue to use Windows 10 instead of deal with that level of hackery.
Click to expand...
I think that most people just don't understand how easy it is.

DukenukemX said:
The idea is that for 99% of Windows 11 systems out in the wild, will have TPM2.0 and Microsoft can leverage it as DRM for Windows. Even though Windows 10 did make use of TPM2.0, it wasn't reliable enough for developers to make use of it, because it wasn't required. No DRM scheme prior to Windows 11 has ever actually used the TPM as a component, but we see applications now making use of them, like Valorant. The whole TPM thing isn't new and had been rejected many times, in fear that Microsoft would use it for this reason. Pluton in the Xbox consoles could be the next big requirement for future Windows releases for all we know. It's the same idea that Apple has done, as you can't watch Netflix in 4K without a T2 chip in Apple computers. These are just hardware versions of Denuvo.
Click to expand...
What exactly are you afraid of in terms of "DRM" that is enabled by TPM? What are you worried that you won't be able to do anymore? You can stream 4K on a $20 Firestick or Roku, what makes you think that anyone is on a crusade to lock-down computer viewing?

DukenukemX said:
This is why I dumped Windows a year and half ago for Linux, because I know the direction Microsoft is taking Windows and I don't want to be part of that.
Click to expand...
If companies do decide to use TPM (and apple equivalents) to enable DRM for streaming apps and similar, what makes you think that they are going to give you a free-pass just because you are running Linux? More likely, you'll be required to have TPM anyway, or you'll simply be locked out of those resolutions or that content.
 
Red Falcon said:
View attachment 593539

I remember this well in Q1 2007 when Vista debuted, and attempting to fix this all on our enterprise test lab... no 64-bit printer drivers, pre-fetching killing performance on single-core systems with much older HDDs, lack of AV software support, lack of general software support, and as an added bonus the growing pains of the ribbon in Office 2007. :hungover:
Needless to say we dropped all support for Vista and stuck with XP until 7 was released, thankfully.
Click to expand...
kudos for that Narnia reference!!
 
sleepeeg3 said:
After 8, Microsoft added uninstallable telemetry and forced updates to every OS. So if you have 10 already, you have agreed to being spied on. Have not heard of any reason to keep 10 over 11.
Click to expand...
It was actually introduced with Windows 7 in Service Pack 2, but most people don't seem to know or care since it was considered the best OS since XP.
 
Lakados said:
https://wccftech.com/wi-fi-7-not-supported-by-windows-10-only-works-with-windows-11-linux-chromeos/

I love articles like this, they do a great job of shifting the narrative.

TLDR; Qualcomm and MediaTek aren't developing drivers for their WiFi 7 modules for Windows 10, and Microsoft isn't creating a generic certified one either.

Personally, I am not sure who would be purchasing a new device with new hardware and then trying to downgrade to Windows 10, and I don't know many people who would go through the trouble of replacing the WiFi module in their existing Win 10 devices to a WiFi 7 one, so I am sure driver support for it isn't exactly something that is in demand.
Click to expand...
There are Windows 10 enterprise editions fully supported by Microsoft until 2035 so there's no reason manufacturers wouldn't develop drivers for it
 
philb2 said:
Like a 1403? I remember those from my college days. :D

What is the rent? Or is it a condo that you own?:ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
A 5203 but yes, like the 1403 but in a faded yellow.

Mine one day I hope but it’s just leaning against the wall in an old barn that used to be the town blacksmith.
 
Am I to understand nothing in this article works -or- even if it does it'll magically turn itself back on the second you are not looking?
https://www.groovypost.com/howto/disable-telemetry-on-windows-11/

What, exactly, is in the telemetry anyways that is so awful? (I do not accept 'just because' they are doing it as the awful)

I am going with the assumption that no one here needs to hide illegal activity, such as inappropriate media content, as goings around complaining about being watched when you are, in fact, needing to be watched would be inane.
 
Elf_Boy said:
I am going with the assumption that no one here needs to hide illegal activity, such as inappropriate media content, as goings around complaining about being watched when you are, in fact, needing to be watched would be inane.
Click to expand...
Ah the old "if you're not doing anything wrong, why do you care if they watch" argument.

Fuck that.

I'm not doing anything wrong, therefore there is no reason to watch me.
 
All these people saying 10 is dead, and "move on" and things have still given no reply to me as to why. What is better about 11? I use 11 on my HTPC as stated before. It's 10 with a shittier UI from what I can tell. So what is the reason? Why should I move?
 
rgMekanic said:
All these people saying 10 is dead, and "move on" and things have still given no reply to me as to why. What is better about 11? I use 11 on my HTPC as stated before. It's 10 with a shittier UI from what I can tell. So what is the reason? Why should I move?
Click to expand...
2 people here but idk why. its not going to be "eol so youre sol" when they say it is, no version has been. yes, its basically 10 with a facelift and some security added.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top