cybereality
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 8,789
Also, probably a good time to bring back this meme.
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nVidia themselves are actually concerned about AMD beating them this time around. An inside source at nVidia reported that they're expecting AMD to release a ~300W GPU that's 40-50% faster than a 2080 Ti. AMD's keeping such a tight lid on GPU development this year that this is literally the only information we have but if nVidia's expecting it, it's probably going to happen. Of course the exact numbers are always up in the air and subject to change at any time due to chip binning and clock speed changes.What does AMD actually have? Some rumored “BIG NAVI OMG” that is gonna blow everything away that Nvidia has? Where have we heard that before...
I’d buy it.No way in hell would Nvidia sell a consumer-level GPU that requires a new power supply. Virtually no one would buy it.
If I read the spec right, and the assumptions on power delivery for this new connector are true, then in order to use an adapter I will need to have two 8-pin connectors available from my PSU to begin with.Adapter and done. Simple
It's not guaranteed an adapter would work, we just don't know at this point.
If I read the spec right, and the assumptions on power delivery for this new connector are true, then in order to use an adapter I will need to have two 8-pin connectors available from my PSU to begin with.
So... why wouldn't Nvidia just put two 8-pin plugs on their card? Like everyone else has done for higher wattage cards forever?
The difference between 6 and 8 pin is one +12V, one ground, and a second sense. The 6 pin is only supposed to have two +12v and grounds plus a sense. But most implementations just used the sense wire as a return for another +12v.Problem with the 8 pin is the only difference between it and the 6 pin is 2 extra ground wires. It uses the same amount of hot leads that actually supply the power as the 6 pin. I’m willing to bet this new connector increase those hot leads.
You have to have a ground for every power pin. So at most 6 power. However the 12pin ups the power limit to 600w, So you’d need four 8-pins to provide the same capability (and still be within spec).12 pin? What does that do that 2 8PINs can't? Assuming 2 pins are ground...
Those are 10 power pins. 2 8PINs would have 12 power pins anyway.
Not Anti NV here. Just wondering since I haven't read much about this topic.
12 pin? What does that do that 2 8PINs can't? Assuming 2 pins are ground...
Those are 10 power pins. 2 8PINs would have 12 power pins anyway.
Not Anti NV here. Just wondering since I haven't read much about this topic.
Something doesn't make sense with this math. An 8-pin has 3 +12v pins, 3 VREF pins, and two sense pins, and can supply 150W of power. If the 12-pin connector has six +12v pins, and six VREF pins, and no sensing at all, it could deliver 300w of power at most - unless the 12-pin connector also implements thicker gauge wiring to achieve the increased ampacity, in which has an adapter would not work (safely).You have to have a ground for every power pin. So at most 6 power. However the 12pin ups the power limit to 600w, So you’d need four 8-pins to provide the same capability (and still be within spec).
From what I’m seeing, it’s going to require 16ga wire.Something doesn't make sense with this math. An 8-pin has 3 +12v pins, 3 VREF pins, and two sense pins, and can supply 150W of power. If the 12-pin connector has six +12v pins, and six VREF pins, and no sensing at all, it could deliver 300w of power at most - unless the 12-pin connector also implements thicker gauge wiring to achieve the increased ampacity, in which has an adapter would not work (safely).
Of course, that's assuming that 150w through a triad of 18ga wires is pushing the ampacity limit to begin with, which it isn't. If we assume an even split with 50 watts for each conductor, at 12v, that's only 4.16a per. The max "chassis wiring" ampacity for an 18ga conductor is 16a. If we go by that maximum, a single 8-pin should already be capable of delivering 576 watts.
If there's some spec for max ampacity per wire in an ATX PSU, I can't see it, but it's got to be somewhere between this measly 4a per conductor and the full-bore 16a per conductor. Maybe it's derated for temperature or something.
In either case, if they aren't messing with the wire gauge or the voltage, then this supposed 12-pin connector cannot be capable of delivering more than two 8-pins. Which brings me back to my original question: why?
As many others have noted, it's definitely not that big a deal. It's, at worst, an annoying change made for no reason.
That's a good point. But in that case, at 9a per pin, the 8-pin on 18ga wire is still capable of reaching 324w, theoretically.From what I’m seeing, it’s going to require 16ga wire.
In most cases, it’s not the wire that limits ampacity, it’s the pins. If I remember right, the pins used in PCIe connectors are limited to 9a each.
18 way can go up to 20amps @ 1.8ft (~21"). So 16 gauge is not a requirement to hit the proposed 8.5amp new spec... Then again as you mentioned the connector they are using ready far exceeds the spec (6-pin spec is ~2amps). The specs allowed very cheap connectors to be used without melting. In reality an 18g PSU with a good connector can easily supply 300w on single 6-pin. It's just they are now mandating the use of decent quality . If you tried to pull 300w through a low quality connector it would create enough heat to melt the plastic and short out your pins. To avoid this possibility they will have to ensure they aren't trying to pull to much through a cheap PSU.From what I’m seeing, it’s going to require 16ga wire.
In most cases, it’s not the wire that limits ampacity, it’s the pins. If I remember right, the pins used in PCIe connectors are limited to 9a each.
The 6-pin is capable of the same amount since they both have the same # of +12v pins and physically use the same pins. They probably made the spec that low not thinking we'd be talking up power this quickly, but I fail to see why the decided 2amps in a molex connector was a good spec in the first place. They could have easily started @4/5amps on a 6 pin and used the same connectors as can be seen from the advent of the 8-pin that uses the exact same 6 wires for twice the power with no changes besides making sure the connector your using isn't horribly built.That's a good point. But in that case, at 9a per pin, the 8-pin on 18ga wire is still capable of reaching 324w, theoretically.
I figure it must be derated for temperature or in anticipation of poor quality control. In any case, this new 12-pin can, at most, deliver the same as two 8-pins without the sense leads. Whatever the spec actually is, 3+3=6. The more I think of it the less sense it makes. I figure at this point that it's got to be an internal connector if the rumor is real at all; the cooling solution will need to deliver all the power to the oddly-shaped PCB if those speculations are accurate, or else Nvidia would have to put the power connectors on the middle of the front of the card.The 6-pin is capable of the same amount since they both have the same # of +12v pins and physically use the same pins. They probably made the spec that low not thinking we'd be talking up power this quickly, but I fail to see why the decided 2amps in a molex connector was a good spec in the first place. They could have easily started @4/5amps on a 6 pin and used the same connectors as can be seen from the advent of the 8-pin that uses the exact same 6 wires for twice the power with no changes besides making sure the connector your using isn't horribly built.
The original spec for 6 pin was two power wires (which was an increase from the single +12v provided by the 4-pin molex connectors that were being used). Remember this was being drawn up in the late 90’s - early 2000s. 150w total card power seemed like a lot at the time.The 6-pin is capable of the same amount since they both have the same # of +12v pins and physically use the same pins. They probably made the spec that low not thinking we'd be talking up power this quickly, but I fail to see why the decided 2amps in a molex connector was a good spec in the first place. They could have easily started @4/5amps on a 6 pin and used the same connectors as can be seen from the advent of the 8-pin that uses the exact same 6 wires for twice the power with no changes besides making sure the connector your using isn't horribly built.
The original spec for 6 pin was two power wires (which was an increase from the single +12v provided by the 4-pin molex connectors that were being used). Remember this was being drawn up in the late 90’s - early 2000s. 150w total card power seemed like a lot at the time.
The 6-pin is 3 power and 3 ground with 2 amps per pin giving it 75w. The 8-pin is 3 power and 5 ground with 4 amps per pin giving it 150w. The # of pins for power did not change just the amps.they could carry was doubled. Since current 6 pin connectors are just 8 pins with the last seperated (typically) then it stands to reason the 3 power line can supply 4amps each just like when the other 2 grounds are plugged in (aka, 150w). It is not 2 12v lines like your thinking. If they would have made the spec match what the connector could handle, then a 6 pin could handle around 9amps per pin which would have given it over 325w. Then 8 pin could have added one more pin and hit 432watta. Of course, neither of these is 600w like the single 12-pin would be, but dual 3 pins would have been equivalent. They need a new connector that's incompatible so people don't plug in low spec connectors that meet the old spec (2 or 4 amps) and the new up with melting connectors. It's more of a safety issue since they made the spec so low to start with. I have a hard time imagining they didn't see GPUs breaking 150watts, but I'm not on the board are a member so I cant really say why they made the decision.The original spec for 6 pin was two power wires (which was an increase from the single +12v provided by the 4-pin molex connectors that were being used). Remember this was being drawn up in the late 90’s - early 2000s. 150w total card power seemed like a lot at the time.
Yeah, it had to be for cost savings or something to allow cheap/low cost psu's to meet spec. Bind sight and all, but the only way to fix it is a new connector with higher ratings. Makes sense sell eventually need a new spec, so I could see this rumor being true. Can't just up the spec on 6-pin lines due to backwards compatibility causing issues with lower quality parts. A new connector is/would be warranted.I figure it must be derated for temperature or in anticipation of poor quality control. In any case, this new 12-pin can, at most, deliver the same as two 8-pins without the sense leads. Whatever the spec actually is, 3+3=6. The more I think of it the less sense it makes. I figure at this point that it's got to be an internal connector if the rumor is real at all; the cooling solution will need to deliver all the power to the oddly-shaped PCB if those speculations are accurate, or else Nvidia would have to put the power connectors on the middle of the front of the card.
The 6-pin is 3 power and 3 ground with 2 amps per pin giving it 75w. The 8-pin is 3 power and 5 ground with 4 amps per pin giving it 150w. The # of pins for power did not change just the amps.they could carry was doubled. Since current 6 pin connectors are just 8 pins with the last seperated (typically) then it stands to reason the 3 power line can supply 4amps each just like when the other 2 grounds are plugged in (aka, 150w). It is not 2 12v lines like your thinking. If they would have made the spec match what the connector could handle, then a 6 pin could handle around 9amps per pin which would have given it over 325w. Then 8 pin could have added one more pin and hit 432watta. Of course, neither of these is 600w like the single 12-pin would be, but dual 3 pins would have been equivalent. They need a new connector that's incompatible so people don't plug in low spec connectors that meet the old spec (2 or 4 amps) and the new up with melting connectors. It's more of a safety issue since they made the spec so low to start with. I have a hard time imagining they didn't see GPUs breaking 150watts, but I'm not on the board are a member so I cant really say why they made the decision.
The power numbers doesn't really line up with A100 PCIe...hint-hint.
I haven't seen anybody say anything about it going to be harder to plug in and unplug a 12-pin vs an 8-pin or 6-pin but it definitely would be. Some of the 8-pin cables are a but of a pain to get seated all the way already. a 12-pin would make it that much harder.
Maybe Nvidia will also start selling or packaging stand-alone PSUs for the new GPUs.... That would be silly as well.
To me, "having two cords is a hassle and I wish there were only one" is beyond a trivial complaint, but I've seen it mentioned as a reason for the change. Anyone with this tier of GPU will have a PSU equipped to supply two eight pins.I suspect you havent seen it mentioned because that is beyond a trivial complaint.
Yeah, if they were launching this seriously, they would have announced it a month ago with A100 Pcie. This is the finest grade-A horseshit rumor