TSMC Nightless Castle is online

That article has some neat AI renderings, but I wanted to see what it actually looks like. I tried Google Maps first. Evidently they're a little outdated:
jasm_google.PNG


I also found some other articles which show the finished buildings:
jsmc_vcg.jpg
jasm_finished.png


Of course the really cool stuff is inside, but I don't think we'll get to see much of that. :(
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Did they really mean that the same people were there for 24 hours, or that it was a 24/7 worksite in 2 or 3 shifts? Maybe something was lost in translation?

That said, it is Japan. They don't exactly believe in work-life balance.
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Same people in some cases not all, TSMC doesn’t understand work life and insist critical knowledge or skill holders be available at all times. Once the plant is in operation they expect 18h work days with 24/7/365.25 availability. It’s one of the major contentions surrounding the Arizona and Germany fabs.

But they were paying extra… instead of what works out to about $200 a day (8-10h) they were paying closer to $350 for the ungodly hours. Either way they got it done on time and under budget while they let the Arizona plant rot.
 
Lakados said:
Same people in some cases not all, TSMC doesn’t understand work life and insist critical knowledge or skill holders be available at all times. Once the plant is in operation they expect 18h work days with 24/7/365.25 availability. It’s one of the major contentions surrounding the Arizona and Germany fabs.

But they were paying extra… instead of what works out to about $200 a day (8-10h) they were paying closer to $350 for the ungodly hours. Either way they got it done on time and under budget while they let the Arizona plant rot.
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How do they expect a subject matter expert on their 18th hour of the workday to make good decisions? Maybe that explains some of these catastrophic plant shutdowns resulting in the loss of millions (billions?) of dollars worth of in-process wafers we hear about every now and then.

It would seem much more effective to cross-train 3 individuals and run three eight hour shifts. The employees would be happier, and the company would probably benefit from lack of seep deprivation-related mistakes.

People are not machines....
 
Lakados said:
Same people in some cases not all, TSMC doesn’t understand work life and insist critical knowledge or skill holders be available at all times. Once the plant is in operation they expect 18h work days with 24/7/365.25 availability. It’s one of the major contentions surrounding the Arizona and Germany fabs.

But they were paying extra… instead of what works out to about $200 a day (8-10h) they were paying closer to $350 for the ungodly hours. Either way they got it done on time and under budget while they let the Arizona plant rot.
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350$ for 18H shifts and 24/7 availability for a skilled worker? do people actually agree to this? i it was China or India , ok i guess , but for an expensive country like Japan ? crazy.
 
T_A said:
350$ for 18H shifts and 24/7 availability for a skilled worker? do people actually agree to this? i it was China or India , ok i guess , but for an expensive country like Japan ? crazy.
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Right? $350 a day is nothing lol
 
Thunderdolt said:
$77k/yr assuming only 220 paid work days. Even in the US, that's pretty good for assembly work.
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sfsuphysics said:
If they are doing 18+hour work days no way they are only working 220 work days, closer to 300 I'm guessing
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The article says their standard is ~200 a day for a normal 8 hours, but TSMC was having them pay closer to $350 a day for the stupid long hours to get things done in 2 years instead of the normal 3-4.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
How do they expect a subject matter expert on their 18th hour of the workday to make good decisions? Maybe that explains some of these catastrophic plant shutdowns resulting in the loss of millions (billions?) of dollars worth of in-process wafers we hear about every now and then.

It would seem much more effective to cross-train 3 individuals and run three eight hour shifts. The employees would be happier, and the company would probably benefit from lack of seep deprivation-related mistakes.

People are not machines....
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“When we reported our quotation in the beginning, the client replied: ‘Are you insane?’ But that’s just the way it is,” Mr. Yang said.
Some TSMC engineers said they were concerned about how the Arizona factory would blend American and Taiwanese employees. In Taiwan, engineers work long hours and weekend shifts, joking that they “sell liver” to work for the chip manufacturer, they said. Such sacrifices may be less appealing to employees in the United States, they said.

Wayne Chiu, an engineer who left TSMC last year, said he had thought about joining the company’s overseas expansion drive but lost interest after realizing he would likely have to pick up the slack for U.S. hires.
“The most difficult thing about wafer manufacturing is not technology,” he said. “The most difficult thing is personnel management. Americans are the worst at this, because Americans are the most difficult to manage.”
Three TSMC employees who trained American engineers said it was difficult to standardize practices among them. While Taiwanese workers unquestioningly follow what they are told to do, American employees challenged managers, questioning if there might be better methods, they said.

Some Americans struggled when assigned multiple tasks, sometimes rejecting a new assignment instead of working harder to complete everything, one TSMC engineer in Arizona said. Taiwanese workers believe that those who work in Phoenix will shoulder greater responsibilities than their American colleagues, eight employees said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/22/technology/tsmc-arizona-factory-tensions.html

You're not wrong but according to their whole country, we are wrong.
 
Thunderdolt said:
$77k/yr assuming only 220 paid work days. Even in the US, that's pretty good for assembly work.
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Ummm...the last time I looked at many places in the US, $77k/yr is considered about 1 step above poverty level :D

Especially in any moderate-sized city or metro area, where the average, small-ish, unfurnished 2BR apartment runs at least $20k/yr, PLUS utilities, cable, internet etc...and even more in big cities like NY, LA, Dallas, Chicago, DC, etc...

Hell, I know a lot of people who are mid-level IT or office managers, and their work that is far less demanding and has way more reasonable hours and work-life balance than working in a factory (40-50 hrs, no nights, weekends or holidays), and they ALL make close to that amount.....
 
dogDAbone said:
Ummm...the last time I looked at many places in the US, $77k/yr is considered about 1 step above poverty level :D
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This may come as a shock, but factory work isn't something that is done remotely. $77k is above the median HH income in Phoenix (where the factory is), and it is significantly above median in many of the commutable areas around the factory.
 
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sfsuphysics said:
If they are doing 18+hour work days no way they are only working 220 work days, closer to 300 I'm guessing
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That's entirely possible. The 220 day target gives a low estimate of their pay. If they're working 5 days/wk, taking 10 holidays, 2 sick days, and 10 vacation days, then they're working 239 days/yr and getting $83,650. That's even better pay.

You really think they're doing 6 days/wk with 13 total days PTO incl holidays? I'm sure there's a couple but that's not the norm. Even so, 300 days becomes $105k. That's real money in that area, especially for an assembly job.
 
Doesn't matter what we think of the pay, the fact people flocked from all corners of Japan knowing about the conditions to do the work says enough, if the pay was bad and the conditions crap they wouldn't have taken the work.

Now staffing the building that may be a tricky bit.
 
Lakados said:
“When we reported our quotation in the beginning, the client replied: ‘Are you insane?’ But that’s just the way it is,” Mr. Yang said.
Some TSMC engineers said they were concerned about how the Arizona factory would blend American and Taiwanese employees. In Taiwan, engineers work long hours and weekend shifts, joking that they “sell liver” to work for the chip manufacturer, they said. Such sacrifices may be less appealing to employees in the United States, they said.

Wayne Chiu, an engineer who left TSMC last year, said he had thought about joining the company’s overseas expansion drive but lost interest after realizing he would likely have to pick up the slack for U.S. hires.
“The most difficult thing about wafer manufacturing is not technology,” he said. “The most difficult thing is personnel management. Americans are the worst at this, because Americans are the most difficult to manage.”
Three TSMC employees who trained American engineers said it was difficult to standardize practices among them. While Taiwanese workers unquestioningly follow what they are told to do, American employees challenged managers, questioning if there might be better methods, they said.

Some Americans struggled when assigned multiple tasks, sometimes rejecting a new assignment instead of working harder to complete everything, one TSMC engineer in Arizona said. Taiwanese workers believe that those who work in Phoenix will shoulder greater responsibilities than their American colleagues, eight employees said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/22/technology/tsmc-arizona-factory-tensions.html

You're not wrong but according to their whole country, we are wrong.
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For something as process critical as wafer manufacturing they are right. You can't have any questioning or deviation from procedure. You have to execute the process exactly as written and not think you know better.

I mean, a good company values suggestions from talented employees, but can absolutely not tolerate employees who just think they know better and go do something different. Suggestions would have to go through proper channels, have projects assigned and approved, be tested to absolute shit to make absolutely sure they work first before implementation and then and only then could they become part of the new process, which then has to be followed crossing every t and dotting ever i.

There can be zero tolerance for cowboy mentality or bending rules.

The hours are crazy though. A job is 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 40 hours total a week on average. Sure, at crunch time you put in some casual overtime to meet deadlines, but this has to be the exception, not the norm, and must go both ways. If you put in casual overtime, you also get casual time off to make up for it. Otherwise? Take that job and shove it.

Any business that tries to violate the above should be tarred, feathered and run out of town. It's common decency.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
For something as process critical as wafer manufacturing they are right. You can't have any questioning or deviation from procedure. You have to execute the process exactly as written and not think you know better.
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You're not wrong, but following procedure without deviation makes you a robot, not an engineer. Unless it's like a train engineer, and not an electrical or chemical or process engineer. Or maybe it's just ye olde title inflation? But yeah, I'm not surprised american engineering talent is hard to manage to do work where they're just supposed to follow a script from overseas; that's not what engineering education teaches us to expect.

Definitely culture clash there.
 
toast0 said:
You're not wrong, but following procedure without deviation makes you a robot, not an engineer. Unless it's like a train engineer, and not an electrical or chemical or process engineer. Or maybe it's just ye olde title inflation? But yeah, I'm not surprised american engineering talent is hard to manage to do work where they're just supposed to follow a script from overseas; that's not what engineering education teaches us to expect.

Definitely culture clash there.
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Engineers are not typically the ones running the process. They develop it, validate (test) it, and then hand it off to process control/manufacturing folks.

It's the production operators and managers who are the ones who have to execute procedure without deviation.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Engineers are not typically the ones running the process. They develop it, validate (test) it, and then hand it off to process control/manufacturing folks.

It's the production operators and managers who are the ones who have to execute procedure without deviation.
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Sure, but the quote is all about US engineers being a pain in the ass to manage. Which I'm sure they are; I know I'm a pain in the ass to manage, and I've got an engineering degree.
 
OutOfPhase said:
To your point - I am very easy to manage. I am very difficult to force into a situation where I surrender all joy in life to eat.
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Yeah, I am exceedingly easy to manage until I start feeling like I am being taken advantage of. Then I suddenly become exceedingly difficult to manage.

Things change as economies mature.

Europe was a little bit ahead of us here when it comes to "your life isn't your work" They went first.

For the longest time, during the boomer years, the U.S. was still under this mindset. At least for non-union employees and professionals. That your worth was somehow measured by how much of a martyr you are for your bosses. That mindset is now done here in the U.S. Those years are over.

Asia is still not there. At least not Japan and (apparently) Taiwan.

We all need to work to pay the mortgage / rent and "put food on our families" (as a certain president once hilariously said) but that can't be the whole of our existence.

We need time for:
1.) Work
2.) Family responsibilities
3.) Taking care of our health
4.) Play / Rest and Relaxattion; and
5.) Sleep

Of the above 5, work is the lowest priority. I can find another job. It's much harder to find another family, or find another body, or find the will to live if all I do in life is work.

So, quite frankly, TSMC can take their attitudes towards work and shove it. We don't need or want them. Give those CHIPS act funds to a company that doesn't want to abuse their employees.

All of that said.

Modern high tech design and manufacturing is very complex and complicated. We saw what happened to Intel's 10nm process.

There is zero room for an "i know better" mindset. While companies should disabuse themselves of the idea that they can demand employees sacrifice their entire lives at the altar of corporate success, employees also need to be prepared to be dedicated to a Quality Management System (ISO style) and dot every i and cross every t, because there is no room for error.

If you feel that stifles your creativity, and makes you unhappy with your work, you are in the wrong field. Engineering/Design/manufacturing is not for you. At least in any complicated field where defects matter and are expensive.
 
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Sony is an investor and a customer for TSMC's new plant in Japan; with the new fab plant getting up and running so quickly in Japan, that wouldn't necessarily be done in other countries. Why? TSMC had efficient government support, strict construction timetables, and a low-cost workforce that was flooding the site and then working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
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BS! You want a 24/7 construction project in US it's simple you hire 4 shifts. 3x 12s one week, 4x 12s the next.
 
i still dont buy the single person working 24/7 bit, its not possible. multiple shifts rotating, sure.
 
DanNeely said:
BS! You want a 24/7 construction project in US it's simple you hire 4 shifts. 3x 12s one week, 4x 12s the next.
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It's a not-so-subtle dig at the Arizona plant, TSMC can't hold onto a contractor, and Intel keeps outbidding them. There are only so many people in the area capable of working on a project of that size and Intel gobbled them all up.
 
T_A said:
350$ for 18H shifts and 24/7 availability for a skilled worker? do people actually agree to this? i it was China or India , ok i guess , but for an expensive country like Japan ? crazy.
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You got the expensive country like Japan, right. That's why people are willing to work themselves to death - they have to.

Japan suffering from highest debt / GDP in the world - nearly double what the US has.

Spending has consequences...
 
sleepeeg3 said:
You got the expensive country like Japan, right. That's why people are willing to work themselves to death - they have to.

Japan suffering from highest debt / GDP in the world - nearly double what the US has.

Spending has consequences...
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That and their birth rate didn't keep up with what was needed to maintain their pension plans.
 
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