kirbyrj
Fully [H]
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Come on now. There aren't THAT many internet cafe's in the world compared to random PC owners. I doubt it skews anything personally.
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Steam players are reverting back to GTX 1660 graphics cards, despite Nvidia's best efforts
- Thread starter kac77
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Come on now. There aren't THAT many internet cafe's in the world compared to random PC owners. I doubt it skews anything personally.
crazycrave
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Amazed to see the RTX 3070 to be that big of a footprint on Steam, and maybe not all of them made it to bitcoin mining rigs near you. I could make it move maybe a tick if I reinstall my RTX 3070 ! but AI is coming and the value could spike again. they say don't buy the RTX 3070 at 0.25+ gain.
OKC Yeakey Trentadue
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Actually there might be merit to this. When I was in the poorer areas of Metro Manila, every tiny alley way had an internet Cafe with dozens of kids playing games in there. Hardly anyone has there own computer. Likely hundreds of such cafe's in Manila alone and it was even like that in the more rural areas. I imagine much of the developing world is like this.
SOAREVERSOR
Gawd
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This isn't true at all. If you go to Asia or Latin America or Africa PC gaming is very much an internet cafe thing.
It's not just the developing parts of the world. Even in the wealthy parts of Asia that are far more developed than most of the US (outside of the major US cities) people game in internet cafes. Even in Korea, Japan, and China internet cafes are where you game on the PC.
kirbyrj
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I'm not saying there aren't a lot of gaming cafes. I'm saying that it is not the bulk of the steam survey.
staknhalo
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Oh no but you see it has to be the bulk of the Steam survey, because then we can use it to explain away.... something or other....
Sir Beregond
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Internet cafes are quite rampant in many areas of the world. You'd be surprised.
That said I can count on one hand how many times Steam has sent me a hardware survey to do in the last 13 years. I doubt it is heavily influencing the results.
Even if it did, Steam would know the machines hardware ID so it would know that it is a multi-user device, but it is still a valid device, it still runs a Steam account, probably many Steam accounts, so they would want to include it because developers and publishers alike need to know what is in the wild.
And developers may be surprised by the prevalence of those caffee's and how their targeted user base uses them.
crazycrave
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Sure Nvidia is not mad about it, as Best Buy AI ask if I am still thinking about the GTX 1650 4Gb on sale for $139.99
DukenukemX
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I like how this thread turned into internet caffee's as an excuse for why people are buying cheap GTX 1660's. NYC had a riot because some YouTuber was giving away free PS5's. I'm gonna stick with Occam's razor and say that people are broke and can't afford an RTX GPU, let alone a good one.
Cost is definitely becoming a barrier. I'll 'upgrade' to a 30xx series when they drop a little more in price on the second hand market, there's no way I'm spending MSRP on a brand new card anymore - Those days are over.
Maybe if you quit buying speed parts for mazdas you could afford it.
staknhalo
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The internet cafe argument is dumb, yes - but that there's like saying 'there are clouds in the sky', it's not indicative of anything in today's age or especially today in NY
Interesting topic. As a frugal gamer I upgraded to a 1660S a few years ago and am only just starting the process of replacing my 9 year old system.
It's a solid card that refreshed my rig allowing me to squeeze a few more years out of the old 4970k workhorse for less than £200, it's delivered an excellent 1080p experience for peanuts really.
It's a solid card that refreshed my rig allowing me to squeeze a few more years out of the old 4970k workhorse for less than £200, it's delivered an excellent 1080p experience for peanuts really.
Spent 10k building a forged engine using Manley internals, tuned it to 350HP on 98, 400HP on E85...Only to have a probationary driver t-bone me and write the car off - The new engine had done 4000 klms.
You could have a point.
However, more than that, I refuse to give Intel, Nvidia or AMD my money - Buying second hand ensures that doesn't happen. I refuse to be a consumerized cash cow...Unless you're talking about tuning cars.
$10,000 for 350hp pump gas is a complete and utter ripoff. Oh, you said kilomters and that's canuckistan cash. oofSpent 10k building a forged engine using Manley internals, tuned it to 350HP on 98, 400HP on E85...Only to have a probationary driver t-bone me and write the car off - The new engine had done 4000 klms.
You could have a point.
However, more than that, I refuse to give Intel, Nvidia or AMD my money - Buying second hand ensures that doesn't happen. I refuse to be a consumerized cash cow...Unless you're talking about tuning cars.
Remember, we don't all live in the USA, and exchange rates are killer when you have to order parts from the US. There was plans to upgrade the turbo for more power, unfortunately the vehicle was written off before I got the chance. I also don't live in Canada. But, I digress, this is discussion related to Nvidia GPU's - Best we stay on topic.
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No DLSS 3 at the budget end for few more years ??
MLID source claims Nvidia has tons of silicon for 3050/3060/3060 ti sitting in the warehouse.
Imo, until then the 3060 12gb would make it the best budget nvidia card
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7cEKTr70YBY&t=1145s
Red Falcon
[H]ard DCOTM December 2023
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It is exactly this.
People across the world can no longer afford GPUs with the new price models from NVIDIA, so alternatives from AMD and Intel have become very lucrative in the gaming space.
Unless it is another corporation focusing on compute or AI, NVIDIA has price-locked out a majority of individuals for their GeForce RTX GPUs.
This is what happens with no competition and extreme market dominance.
I thought about going with a Quadro T1000 recently, but for a simple low-end SFF GPU with only 8GB and no AI/Tensor cores at that cost, yikes...
Just think what it'll be like when some people get their wishes and AMD bows out of the market. $1000 for an RTX 6060, and a $100/mo subscription fee.
DooKey
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The slim minority of people who want AMD out of the market is so small that they don't matter. AMD has brought their failures on themselves, and they need to get themselves out of their failures. I hope they turn it around.
DukenukemX
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AMD won't leave the market just as much as Intel. That doesn't mean AMD couldn't exit out of certain segments of the GPU market, like the ultra high end or the ultra low end. The ultra low end isn't very profitable, and AMD has plans for APU's anyway for those in a budget. The ultra high end is also very risky as AMD can't sell these GPU's without knowing they'll be #1 in performance. I'm sure at this point AMD is putting their R&D into AI instead of the failing GPU market, but AI is also part of the GPU market.
Nope. If AMD produces a better performing part and the market completely ignores it that's not AMD that's the gamers just being stupid. We've never done this before. We respond to numbers but if we ever get to a point where we don't that's on us. When Intel came out with Core i7's most of us moved to it even AMD fans did because they were better performing parts. Only in video card land does a card come out that beats another card at the same price point and the market looks the other way. This even happens within nVidia's own lineup (hence the title of this thread). This points to consumers not being as well informed as they are in the CPU market and/or the reviewers not listening to what the market wants, and that's not AMD or really nVidia's fault. That's the reviewers mainly causing the issue.
The latest LTT / Gamer Nexus kerfuffle is actually an extension of this if you think about it. Reviewers have become influencers and it's causing some really weird outcomes.
Let's honest here. Intel was screwing up for years but still the market responded to better performing parts.
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No, That's the same old sorry BS that the AMD faithful keep spouting. There are a few different variations of the same phrases that have been going around for years.
"AMD produce great GPUs but people buy Nvidia anyway"
"People want AMD to do better so they get their Nvidia GPU cheaper"
etc. etc.
It's all nonsense. Dookey is exactly right. AMD bought it upon themselves. This is what 15 years of mediocrity and total lack of any kind of consistency looks like. When ATI had the top cards with the 9700pro and 9800pro that helped sell their entire product stack. They gained huge market share and were on top for a couple of generations. Even though the following cards weren't as good as the 9700pro and some of the Nvidia offerings were better, people still bought ATI cards in enough numbers to keep them on top in Market share. They went off the rails when AMD took them over and released the 2xxx and 3xxx cards. And it's been meh release after meh release since then. The few decent products they had like the 7xxx cards and the 2xx cards were spoilt by either terrible launches or drivers that weren't right for months and months.
AMD finally seemed to be getting things right with the release of RDNA. Yes, the 5700 had issues with black screens, but it was still a great card and showed great potential. Then comes RDNA 2. And in my opinion this was AMD's best ever product launch with the best line of products. They got everything right, the prices, the performance, the power consumption and no issues at launch. There were no driver issues. And the top card was competing with the top Nvidia card. They were unlucky that the release coincided with lockdown and the mining boom. But people who hadn't bought AMD cards in years were suddenly interested.
If you check my post history, you will see that I said this several times. AMD had to show consistency. They had to follow the example set by the almost perfect RDNA 2 cards and launch and repeat that with RDNA 3. They didn't. The 7900 cards had driver problems at launch, not as good performance as expected, higher than expected power consumption and more expensive than they should have been. Especially since We had been hearing for a long time how chiplets were going to mean cheaper and less power hungry GPUs. AMD really needed to get this release right.
But, but, Nvidia have had problems too, I hear you say. Sure, but they also have the overwhelming majority of market share and mind share. People have got in the habit of buying Nvidia's GPUs. IF you want to break that habit you need have better GPUs, you need to have problem free launches. And they need to be consistently good for a few generations.
However, they have solved a lot of the driver problems recently. Performance, especially in VR, is much better. And they have reduced prices across the board. In places where you can see the sales numbers, AMD are outselling Nvidia. It's a shame that they couldn't have done this from the start.
As for the Article. I don't believe Nvidia care, in fact they would probably prefer if you didn't buy any of this generation's cards. They want as much production as possible available for their Pro cards for the AI market. Why would they waste fab space on producing 4xxx cards for the consumer market when they can make multiple times more margins on selling cards to the professional market. Cards like the 1660 super are been manufactured on a different node so don't compete for fab space. It's a win-win for Nvidia.
No they're not. Hence the point. If they were it would make sense. The market also wasn't "suddenly interested" that's why there's still so many on the market. The consumer did not respond to "the best ever product launch" hence the previous discussion.
Anyway, regarding the article. It isn't about nVidia caring it's about the consumers not buying RTX cards, which speaks to the disconnect between what nVidia wants consumers to buy vs what they are actually buying. The RTX 3050 costs the same as the 1660.
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Imo, nvidia doesn't want budget customers to buy 4060. They would rather that they continue buying 1xx0 cards as they can now be sold 3xx0 cards as an upgrade & later 5xx0 cards as upgrade again. Win-win-win for nvidia. (Except of course this continues to leave a tiny opening for FSR)
I don't think they do either. Still with the 1660 at the same price as the RTX 3050 it doesn't make much sense.
In Asian street markets you can get a “lightly used never mined with” 1660 Super for what works out to about $40 US.
India had more of them than there are people to buy them which shows how much mining was actually going on there.
DukenukemX
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When AMD does have a faster product, Nvidia immediately responds. This is why Nvidia has Super models, because when AMD did release faster products like the RX 5700 XT, Nvidia's Ti's weren't enough so they made up the Super name. Remember the RTX 2060 Super was just a cut down RTX 2070 or when the Vega 56 outperformed the GTX 1070 so Nvidia then released the 1070 Ti?
There was a time period when people bought GPU's entirely based on VRAM because it's that hard for normies to tell what is or isn't faster. I wouldn't say that AMD and Nvidia isn't at fault, especially Nvidia. What's faster the GTX 1030 or the GTX 1030? I'm sorry, did I forget to mention one has DDR3 and the other has GDDR? What's the difference you say? Same goes for the GTX 1060 3GB vs 6GB, because even if you knew about the limitations of VRAM, you wouldn't be aware of the slower 3GB model. Same goes for the RTX 3060 which now has an 8GB model, which not only has less VRAM but is also slower.
That's what they all are, which is why you need to always stay skeptical when watching them. Neither Gamers Nexus nor LTT reviewed the 4060 Ti 16GB, which would have been informative to consumers to know how much Nvidia is screwing them. No influencer is doing a good job making consumers understand that AMD and Nvidia have decoupled manufacturing costs with the prices of their GPU's. Some Nvidia fans even going so far to defend Nvidia's pricing with factors like inflation and shareholders.
NightReaver
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It's also fun when they leave out major titles from this year, instead opting for years old titles such as cyberpunk.
You'd think people would be much more interested in how cards perform on today's titles.
Seem more prevalent among AMD fans, Nvidia 70% margin being seen as a lot for an hardware company by most Nvidia fans would be my guess.
People in the crowd during the AMD presentation applauded and cheered when they announced that the 300mm GCD 7900xtx would launch for only $1000.
Maybe this message board is an anomaly, but I have not sure if I have read a single support for the 4060TI 8/16gb price tag, when they say that it is cheaper than the 2060 price tag adjusted for inflation, that does not mean it is good, except if you think that Turing pricing was good. Same goes for fall in line with the current market environment for new in store cards, (except if you think that the current market has good price)
DukenukemX
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Exactly this. Like I need to know how many hundreds of frames I'm getting in CS:GO, a game from a decade ago. I think this is more due to laziness because reviewers like to recycle their benchmarks. It's also worth putting in popular cards like the GTX 1060, because it's one of the most popular cards on Steam. Would be nice knowing how much faster a new GPU is compared to my old GPU, which for a lot of people isn't the RTX 30 and 20 series. This is again why I like Hardware Unboxed because they do test with new games and will revisit older hardware.
There are fans for every company. You shouldn't be because they will inevitably screw you. Just don't be happy about it and expect lube.
People at AMD's presentations aren't fans, they're investors.
What happens is that they still think it's a better value than the RX 7600, because it's worth comparing one shit product to another. If you want an Nvidia GPU, then buy a RTX 3060. You want an AMD GPU, then buy the 6700. They're both cheap and under $300 but what's interesting is the 6600 XT is as much as the 6700. Prices are still too high but prices are beginning to normalize. What people don't understand is that both AMD and Nvidia have been riding high long before the pandemic. After the 2017 crypto crash, both these GPU manufacturers have been trying to inflate the value of their cards. It's going to be hard for AMD and Nvidia to admit that they're stuff is very overpriced. Especially Nvidia who doesn't want to depend on gamers as a main source of their revenue. None of these cards have hit rock bottom. AMD and Nvidia are still making a healthy profit from each sale. Even the Ebay guys are delusional, as they often price GPU's at or higher than brand new. Something has to give.
Yes, there was huge interest in RDNA 2. The problem was that it was extremely hard to buy one. In some regions they didn't even supply directly from AMD, Like the UK. And you are also wrong about those cards not selling now. The sales numbers for Mindfactory.de are put up nearly week. For the past few months AMD have been outselling Nvidia. On Overclockers in the UK, they are saying that AMD are their best selling cards. On Newegg 9 of the 12 top selling GPUs are from AMD.
You are also wrong here too. I suggest you go look at the Steam Hardware survey. And then come back here and post your findings.
Now we're just making stuff up got it.
You mean this one showing the top card being the 1650 and not the RTX 3050?
Where's the 3050? Oh there it is way down here:
Here are the RTX cards that come before it:
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti
Hmm,seems like you just threw that out there as something to say. Anyway moving on.
NightReaver
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Lol, yup. People only shifted towards Radeon relatively late once you could get a 6700xt for $500 directly from AMD. When both were hard to get you had tons of people on buildapcsales gushing over $700 3070tis, usually choosing them over 6800s/xts.
Imagine choosing a slower card with half the vram for the sake of DLSS. Now that same card can't even max out 1080p.
In hindsight now a lot of people will talk about how great the 6000 series is/was, if only because they overpaid for inferior hardware that struggles. People are now even saying that rdna2 had good drivers, yet "AMD drivers bad" was a very real talking point back then. 2 years ago was a very different tale.
DukenukemX
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You couldn't buy AMD GPUs during the lockdown. That was the problem. The interest was there, the cards weren't. Since lockdown ended people are buying them. It shows in the Steam numbers and it shows in retail shops that display sales figures. During lockdown AMD cards were more expensive, unless you could get them direct from AMD, which was impossible in some regions as they didn't supply direct to several regions during Covid.
Of course back before RDNA 2 launched people were talking about AMD's drivers. You had two of years of black screen issues with the 5700XT. And with the launch of the RDNA 3 people are back talking about AMD's drivers because they slipped up again. Poor performance, poor power management and poor VR performance. All driver related.
And while we are at it. List me all the games that 3700Ti can't max at 1080p that a 6800XT can. Just curious.
NightReaver
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Hmmm, maybe people were exaggerating with their 3070 woes at 1080p. Can't find any numbers to match some of the claims from early 2023.
Still, in 2021 to 2022 everyone gushed about the 3070. Even when you could buy a better Radeon card.
Was always the same marketing mix of "ray tracing, DLSS, cuda, etc" and nowadays people are very meh about the 3070. Sometimes downright lamenting it.
Reviewers may have been interested in rdna2, but places like buildapc? No. Was constant "buy a 3070". That card fell from grace pretty fast.
You could look at the 4060 ti 16gb thread which lists the games where even 2060 & 3060 beat 8gb cards because of extra VRAM !!