If I have an antistatic mat with an esd wrist wrap and clipped the ground clip to the case without a power supply, will I still be grounded from esd? I installed my mobo, 2 wd raptors, cpu, sp-94 this way and hope I didnt damage them by esd. I placed the mobo on top of antistatic mat with anti static bag and also touched case that was on desk many times while installing. Think ill be ok?
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Static electricity?
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SJetski71
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Your case has to be grounded via 3 pronged plug from what i understand. I don't think a case minus psu is considered a "grounded object"
SJetski71
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Not necessarily (prolly not), but ground it before you continue. I've zapped a crucial ddr stick with static before but that was after walking over carpets for about an hour then grabbing a known working stick.
tim_m
i'm so nice
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do you have OCD 
seriously, i think you're worrying a little too much. that's not to say that being careful isn't important, just don't totally freak out over it
seriously, i think you're worrying a little too much. that's not to say that being careful isn't important, just don't totally freak out over itMisadventure
Limp Gawd
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I just stand in place and don't move my feet all over the carpet, touch one finger from each hand onto the computer case and have at it..the whole static thing to me is hearsay really..unless you're wearing really thick wool socks and rubbing them all over your carpet then you really shouldn't worry too much
SJetski71
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Not hearsay.... really, static electricity carries a crapload of juice, come to think of it, i've fried a Hard drive and ram with static electricity....Originally posted by Misadventure
I just stand in place and don't move my feet all over the carpet, touch one finger from each hand onto the computer case and have at it..the whole static thing to me is hearsay really..unless you're wearing really thick wool socks and rubbing them all over your carpet then you really shouldn't worry too much
CommanderFrank
Cat Can't Scratch It
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In the winter I always use Static Guard on the carpets near the comp and on my fabric desk chair. Even if you have a charge, the Static Guard serves as a damper and protects you from emitting a static charge to the electrical components. Not a bad idea on your car seats either
Misadventure
Limp Gawd
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I mean - hearsay, because I've never experianced it myself. I'm well aware that it is a serious issue and very easy to kill parts
SarverSystems
Supreme [H]ardness
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ESD knows no seasons.
I
Ice Czar
Guest
Its been awhile since I posted my ESD rant
http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r10/bombay/news2/story11.htm
According to recent studies conducted by the AT & T Bell labs, 25 % of all component failures today are related to E.S.D and out of all defective components that arrive 50%are damaged by E.S.D. the annual damage due to these failures is estimated at 25 Billion dollars
An Integrated Circuit (IC) consists of several transistors fabricated on one chip. Due to the advances in L.S.I and V.L.S.I thousands of transistors are crowded on a single chip. By decreasing the thickness of the gate oxides and interconnecting lines the manufacturers hope to achieve much higher speeds at very low power consumption. But under these conditions if the Electrostatic Discharge passes through an IC and the current that results is not diverted or diminished by a suitable protective mechanism, the discharge may raise the temperature of the junction inside the component to melting point which will cause damage to the junction or interconnecting lines. Since surface mount devices are smaller than conventional ICs they are even more susceptible to E.S.D damage. E.S.D causes two main types of failures: -
1. Immediate failure where the effect can be readily seen by the equipment manufacturer.
2. Delayed failure where the device is damaged only upto the point where it may pass quality control tests, but wears out sooner than its rated time
http://www.esda.org/esdbasics1.htm
Table 2
Examples of Static Generation
Typical Voltage Levels
Means of Generation .........10-25% RH ......65-90% RH
Walking across carpet ......,35,000V ...........1,500V
Walking across vinyl tile ....12,000V ............250V
Worker at bench ................6,000V .............100V
Chair with urethane foam ..18,000V ...........1,500V
ESD DamageHow Devices Fail
Electrostatic damage to electronic devices can occur at any point from manufacture to field service. Damage results from handling the devices in uncontrolled surroundings or when poor ESD control practices are used. Generally damage is classified as either a catastrophic failure or a latent defect.
Catastrophic Failure
When an electronic device is exposed to an ESD event it may no longer function. The ESD event may have caused a metal melt, junction breakdown, or oxide failure. The device's circuitry is permanently damaged causing the device fail. Such failures usually can be detected when the device is tested before shipment. If the ESD event occurs after test, the damage will go undetected until the device fails in operation.
Latent Defect
A latent defect, on the other hand, is more difficult to identify. A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function. However, the operating life of the device may be reduced dramatically. A product or system incorporating devices with latent defects may experience premature failure after the user places them in service. Such failures are usually costly to repair and in some applications may create personnel hazards.
It is relatively easy with the proper equipment to confirm that a device has experienced catastrophic failure. Basic performance tests will substantiate device damage. However, latent defects are extremely difficult to prove or detect using current technology, especially after the device is assembled into a finished product.
Static Electricity - Electrostatic Discharge (ESD)
"Most books or articles indicate that a spark can't be seen until the voltage on your body reaches between 450 to 750 VDC. Others indicate that they are very hard to notice until it reaches 1000 VDC. For most people, to feel a shock from a static electricity discharge the voltage is between 2,000-4,000V. A 0.5mm arch of static electricity carries approximately 2850V."
Semiconductor Electromigration In-Depth
Ground that mat, wriststrap and if possible humidify the environment
http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r10/bombay/news2/story11.htm
According to recent studies conducted by the AT & T Bell labs, 25 % of all component failures today are related to E.S.D and out of all defective components that arrive 50%are damaged by E.S.D. the annual damage due to these failures is estimated at 25 Billion dollars
An Integrated Circuit (IC) consists of several transistors fabricated on one chip. Due to the advances in L.S.I and V.L.S.I thousands of transistors are crowded on a single chip. By decreasing the thickness of the gate oxides and interconnecting lines the manufacturers hope to achieve much higher speeds at very low power consumption. But under these conditions if the Electrostatic Discharge passes through an IC and the current that results is not diverted or diminished by a suitable protective mechanism, the discharge may raise the temperature of the junction inside the component to melting point which will cause damage to the junction or interconnecting lines. Since surface mount devices are smaller than conventional ICs they are even more susceptible to E.S.D damage. E.S.D causes two main types of failures: -
1. Immediate failure where the effect can be readily seen by the equipment manufacturer.
2. Delayed failure where the device is damaged only upto the point where it may pass quality control tests, but wears out sooner than its rated time
http://www.esda.org/esdbasics1.htm
Table 2
Examples of Static Generation
Typical Voltage Levels
Means of Generation .........10-25% RH ......65-90% RH
Walking across carpet ......,35,000V ...........1,500V
Walking across vinyl tile ....12,000V ............250V
Worker at bench ................6,000V .............100V
Chair with urethane foam ..18,000V ...........1,500V
ESD DamageHow Devices Fail
Electrostatic damage to electronic devices can occur at any point from manufacture to field service. Damage results from handling the devices in uncontrolled surroundings or when poor ESD control practices are used. Generally damage is classified as either a catastrophic failure or a latent defect.
Catastrophic Failure
When an electronic device is exposed to an ESD event it may no longer function. The ESD event may have caused a metal melt, junction breakdown, or oxide failure. The device's circuitry is permanently damaged causing the device fail. Such failures usually can be detected when the device is tested before shipment. If the ESD event occurs after test, the damage will go undetected until the device fails in operation.
Latent Defect
A latent defect, on the other hand, is more difficult to identify. A device that is exposed to an ESD event may be partially degraded, yet continue to perform its intended function. However, the operating life of the device may be reduced dramatically. A product or system incorporating devices with latent defects may experience premature failure after the user places them in service. Such failures are usually costly to repair and in some applications may create personnel hazards.
It is relatively easy with the proper equipment to confirm that a device has experienced catastrophic failure. Basic performance tests will substantiate device damage. However, latent defects are extremely difficult to prove or detect using current technology, especially after the device is assembled into a finished product.
Static Electricity - Electrostatic Discharge (ESD)
"Most books or articles indicate that a spark can't be seen until the voltage on your body reaches between 450 to 750 VDC. Others indicate that they are very hard to notice until it reaches 1000 VDC. For most people, to feel a shock from a static electricity discharge the voltage is between 2,000-4,000V. A 0.5mm arch of static electricity carries approximately 2850V."
Semiconductor Electromigration In-Depth
Ground that mat, wriststrap and if possible humidify the environment
Deadlierchair
[H]ard|Gawd
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Wow, good post Ice Czar...but to not be totally anal about all of those things, would it be pretty much safe to touch stuff if I touch the metal on my case while it is off, but still plugged in and grounded?
err...i hate those damn wristband things...pointless anyway. As long as you didn't feel any sort of "shoch" between you and your equipment, you should be fine. Just don't drag you feet and discharge yourself before touching anything (i usually just touch the frame of my case or anything else grouned that's nearby.
What I do is get a length of speaker wire or something and strip 8 inches off one end. Wrap the exposed wire around a tap in the bathroom, kitchen etc. Pipes are by nature grounded.
I wear a strap with an alligator clip that I clip to the other end of my grounded wire. You could just make sure you touched the other end of the wire, stripped of course.
Someone tell me if this is right though....
If the static electric charge is just the difference between yourself and the computer (duh) then couldn't you just ground yourself to the computer's chassis? If this were the case I could clip my antistatic strap to the chassis, although the security of the grounded pipe is nice.
I wear a strap with an alligator clip that I clip to the other end of my grounded wire. You could just make sure you touched the other end of the wire, stripped of course.
Someone tell me if this is right though....
If the static electric charge is just the difference between yourself and the computer (duh) then couldn't you just ground yourself to the computer's chassis? If this were the case I could clip my antistatic strap to the chassis, although the security of the grounded pipe is nice.
I
Ice Czar
Guest
ESD Susceptibility Analysis
"ESD votages sufficient to damage semiconductor devices are often lower than the threshold of human sensory perception, making a person unaware that a static discharge has taken place"
thats the basic proceedure most employ, its best if you do that like every other move, and be aware of exactly how much RH (Relative Humidity) influences Static Discharge
Taking great care to never touch any chip or lead, handling only the PCB, perferably by the edges.
the other point of my post is that while the immediate cause and effect relationship of catastrophic failure, using the "typical" proceedure is low...
This board is filled every day with people who have developed RAM errors, data corruption problems (generally RAM) ect, Most of which can be traced to either poor power regulation (Transient Response) of the PSU, or ESD
Latent defects caused by ESD in any IC (and they are just everywhere from HDDs to NIC, CPU, RAM ect) are massively underated as a cause of problems. If you have eliminated power fluctuation problems (PSU voltage regulation and power conditioning) and still experience a component failure, odds are that it was a latent defect, either from installation, or one that wasnt caught during manufacturing.
the membership displays a cavalier attitude towards this issue for 2 reasons, RMA's are pretty easy, and they rarely employ the same component for its fully rated lifespan, upgrading before the eventual premature failure becomes appearent.
But
a latent defect, not only effects the lifespan, it degrades the performance of the IC as well, and is often the difference between the "Golden Chip" benchmark leader, the norm, and "why cant I get the same OC as this guy? Ive got the same components"
I
Ice Czar
Guest
Correct, provided the PSU is plugged in (typically power off since your working on the system)
and the socket it plugged into, has a good ground (something everyone should check)
the PSU grounds the whole case if correctly installed
make sure to attach to bare metal.
mustang_steve
c[H]ewbacca
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Here's a trick you can do.
Buy a bulk IEC socket, you know the ones with the 3 butt connectors? You will also need solder and sodlering iron, some 24-26ga wire, and an alligator clip.
Take it and remove the entire hot and neutral butt connectors, make sure you fill it with something so you cannot accidentally make contact with either. Now solder one end of the wire to the ground butt connector, make sure its a good proper solder joint. Now solder the alligator clip to teh other end.
What you have now is a way to ground your case to a standard IEC power cable without having to use your PC's PSU. Total cost for this device is about $3. It may look ugly, but it can look as ugly as it wnats if it works fine.
BTW this only works if you actually use grounded outlets in your house. If you use a cheater plug, make sure to hook up the 3rd prong tab to a cold water pipe at teh least to make some sort of ground.
Buy a bulk IEC socket, you know the ones with the 3 butt connectors? You will also need solder and sodlering iron, some 24-26ga wire, and an alligator clip.
Take it and remove the entire hot and neutral butt connectors, make sure you fill it with something so you cannot accidentally make contact with either. Now solder one end of the wire to the ground butt connector, make sure its a good proper solder joint. Now solder the alligator clip to teh other end.
What you have now is a way to ground your case to a standard IEC power cable without having to use your PC's PSU. Total cost for this device is about $3. It may look ugly, but it can look as ugly as it wnats if it works fine.
BTW this only works if you actually use grounded outlets in your house. If you use a cheater plug, make sure to hook up the 3rd prong tab to a cold water pipe at teh least to make some sort of ground.
I
Ice Czar
Guest
What Id love is a little electronics tutorial on how to make one of these
Stat-Guard ESD Grounding ystem
"automatically checks for open ground, open neutral, open hot, hot on neutral, reverse polarity, hot and ground reversed. "
for when your playing "away"
mustang_steve
c[H]ewbacca
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Looks like a industry standard 3-prong outlet tester with a banana jack hooked up to the ground prong. The wrist strap being just your ordinary variety. You could make one yourself minus wrist strap for about $5-6.
BTW you can get the tester from home depot.
The banana jack can be bought from mcm electronics.
You can find a wrist strap with a banana plug almost anywhere. I get them for free with stuff quite often. A decent one runs about $10-11.
BTW you can get the tester from home depot.
The banana jack can be bought from mcm electronics.
You can find a wrist strap with a banana plug almost anywhere. I get them for free with stuff quite often. A decent one runs about $10-11.
I
Ice Czar
Guest
LOL
knowing what it is your looking for makes all the difference
thanx
knowing what it is your looking for makes all the difference
thanx