Square one again passing the blame

[Lakados]

I read they were disappointed in the western studios sales performance. You are a lost company if you believe 10+ million sales is disappointing for single player games. They want so hard to have the next Fortnight.

Disappointed but not for the reasons you think.
There were some articles floating around on the Anime forums complaining that Western RPGs were generally higher quality and more interesting than JRPGs, and JRPGs had devolved into clones of each other not really adding anything new. A lot of that criticism was aimed at Square in the Japanese media, it’s around that time they started saying how they were going to focus on their core strengths and improve, and blah blah blah. Then they started offloading the western developers who were by comparison making their Japanese counterparts look bad. Square had been working on NFT bullshit for a long while before they began to offload.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

They tried that with FFXI and the player numbers dipped until only a few thousand hardcore players remained.

Not sure why anyone would play either FFO anymore. I played FFXI for 2 years, and I honestly regret it. The gameplay simply wasn't there for anyone who didn't want to do the worst grind of all time.

Disappointed but not for the reasons you think.
There were some articles floating around on the Anime forums complaining that Western RPGs were generally higher quality and more interesting than JRPG’s, and JRPG’s had devolved to into clones of each other not really adding anything new. A lot of that criticism was aimed at Square in the Japanese media, it’s around that time they started saying how they were going to focus on their core strengths and strengths and improve and blah blah blah. Then they started offloading the western developers who were by comparison making their Japanese counterparts look bad. Square had been working on NFT bullshit for a long while before they started offloading.

Most Japanese thing I've ever heard. Receive fair criticism, rather than do anything about it bury the problem and defer guilt/shame.

It's a VERY unfortunate part of the way Japanese society operates.

 

[vegeta535]

Not sure why anyone would play either FFO anymore. I played FFXI for 2 years, and I honestly regret it. The gameplay simply wasn't there for anyone who didn't want to do the worst grind of all time.


Most Japanese thing I've ever heard. Receive fair criticism, rather than do anything about it bury the problem and defer guilt/shame.

It's a VERY unfortunate part of the way Japanese society operates.

FFXI is a great game. I have been popping in on the new lvl 75 server. I wish I had the time and energy to put into it like I did nearly 20 years ago.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

FFXI is a great game. I have been popping in on the new lvl 75 server. I wish I had the time and energy to put into it like I did nearly 20 years ago.

Respectfully disagree. I played for 2 years and never hit level cap. If you don't get into a good guild, it's impossible to play at any higher level.
And while FFXI by it's nature is a game designed for multi-player, it's implementation is sorely lacking. It also has one of the most convoluted combo systems of all time. While it can be argued that it really is built for team competitive play, if you have players that don't know how to communicate well or write long complicated macros for every time you can use a skill or hit a limit, etc, then by its very nature you're playing in a vastly sub-optimal way. You also have to essentially sit and make sure you're constantly paying attention to macros and attacks as well. Meaning a good chunk of player focus is reading text at the bottom of your screen (which is not fun or interesting to me).
Furthermore there is an absurd amount of time you also have to spend learning good skill combinations and group builds. Even if you want to play a specific class, it may not be desirable vs other classes. At high levels if you want to tank, you have to be a Ninja (either main or sub). Every party wants a Red Mage. If you want to play some "less desirable" class, especially DPS related ones, you're screwed (Good luck Mithra Thief/Ninja!, shoulda been a tank). While it's technically *possible* to pub in FFXI, because of all of the above, it's not really viable.

Outside of that, there are problems like spawn camping, the main way to get good items especially in the early game. The very imbalanced AH system. And just how hard it is to make money in game and how necessary it is to have money in game. It's also necessary to do crafting and/or mining/fishing for huge amounts of time in order to keep up or have alternative forms of income. If you don't do these things, when people inspect your gear, you'll get passed up for parties in favor of people that have +1 gear.

All of these mechanics are "not fun" to anyone that wants to have a regular life and not spend hours "grinding" the game. I never saw a single piece of end game content, arguably when MMO's really start, because of all of these systems and how they play against one another. At least in a game like WoW, it's possible to solo to level cap (though it's faster to pub and run dungeons and also get leveling gear along the way). And get people to the cap without making the process painful. If you want to play other classes you can. I played WoW for a year too during WotC, and I also regret that time.

MMO's in general are too much grind time for basically little to no payoff. The max you can get from them is community and perhaps online friends. They sorely lack in any actual reward outside of giving you a digital item designed to give you a dopamine hit so you can be 1337. The storylines are worthless, they have nothing real to say. At this point in my life I spend a majority of my game time in single player games because they are all much more interesting and more rewarding experiences over killing the same things over and over, doing fetch quests, and doing the same raid content for a year.

Am I wrong? To a lot of people clearly yes. There are tons addicted to their WoW subs and indeed it has printed money for Blizzard for decades. But whatever, I'm good with my position about FFXI, WoW, and all MMO's in general.

 

[Armenius]

Respectfully disagree. I played for 2 years and never hit level cap. If you don't get into a good guild, it's impossible to play at any higher level.
And while FFXI by it's nature is a game designed for multi-player, it's implementation is sorely lacking. It also has one of the most convoluted combo systems of all time. While it can be argued that it really is built for team competitive play, if you have players that don't know how to communicate well or write long complicated macros for every time you can use a skill or hit a limit, etc, then by its very nature you're playing in a vastly sub-optimal way. You also have to essentially sit and make sure you're constantly paying attention to macros and attacks as well. Meaning a good chunk of player focus is reading text at the bottom of your screen (which is not fun or interesting to me).
Furthermore there is an absurd amount of time you also have to spend learning good skill combinations and group builds. Even if you want to play a specific class, it may not be desirable vs other classes. At high levels if you want to tank, you have to be a Ninja (either main or sub). Every party wants a Red Mage. If you want to play some "less desirable" class, especially DPS related ones, you're screwed (Good luck Mithra Thief/Ninja!, shoulda been a tank). While it's technically *possible* to pub in FFXI, because of all of the above, it's not really viable.

Outside of that, there are problems like spawn camping, the main way to get good items especially in the early game. The very imbalanced AH system. And just how hard it is to make money in game and how necessary it is to have money in game. It's also necessary to do crafting and/or mining/fishing for huge amounts of time in order to keep up or have alternative forms of income. If you don't do these things, when people inspect your gear, you'll get passed up for parties in favor of people that have +1 gear.

All of these mechanics are "not fun" to anyone that wants to have a regular life and not spend hours "grinding" the game. I never saw a single piece of end game content, arguably when MMO's really start, because of all of these systems and how they play against one another. At least in a game like WoW, it's possible to solo to level cap (though it's faster to pub and run dungeons and also get leveling gear along the way). And get people to the cap without making the process painful. If you want to play other classes you can. I played WoW for a year too during WotC, and I also regret that time.

MMO's in general are too much grind time for basically little to no payoff. The max you can get from them is community and perhaps online friends. They sorely lack in any actual reward outside of giving you a digital item designed to give you a dopamine hit so you can be 1337. The storylines are worthless, they have nothing real to say. At this point in my life I spend a majority of my game time in single player games because they are all much more interesting and more rewarding experiences over killing the same things over and over, doing fetch quests, and doing the same raid content for a year.

Am I wrong? To a lot of people clearly yes. There are tons addicted to their WoW subs and indeed it has printed money for Blizzard for decades. But whatever, I'm good with my position about FFXI, WoW, and all MMO's in general.

When was the last time you played FFXI? Leveling is very fast now. It took me about 2 years, myself, with a regular group that included friends meeting up in my apartment to hit 75 my first time. On my first fresh character back to the game a few years ago it only took me about a month to hit 75 by myself. No Linkshell group to help me get there. And I only played around 3 hours a night after work. Pretty much the only thing you need a group for anymore is the post-game content like Dynamis and its variations. If you want to push to the new level cap of 99 then that is going to take longer.

 

[vegeta535]

Respectfully disagree. I played for 2 years and never hit level cap. If you don't get into a good guild, it's impossible to play at any higher level. In a game like WoW, you can still play end game content by just playing pubs.
And while FFXI by it's nature is a game designed for multi-player, it's implementation is sorely lacking. It also has one of the most convoluted combo systems of all time. While it can be argued that it really is built for team competitive play, if you have players that don't know how to communicate well or write long complicated macros for every time you can use a skill or hit a limit, etc, then by its very nature you're playing in a vastly sub-optimal way. You also have to essentially sit and make sure you're constantly paying attention to macros and attacks as well. This is ignoring how much time you also have to spend learning good skill combinations and group builds. Even if you want to play a specific class, it may not be desirable vs other classes. At high levels if you want to tank, you have to be a Ninja (either main or sub). Every party wants a Red Mage. If you want to play some "less desirable" class, especially DPS related ones, you're screwed. While it's technically *possible* to pub in FFXI, because of all of the above, it's not really viable.

Outside of that, this is ignoring problems like spawn camping, the main way to get good items. The very imbalanced AH system. And just how hard it is to make money in game and how necessary it is to have money in game. It's also necessary to do crafting and/or mining/fishing for huge amounts of time in order to keep up or have alternative forms of income. If you don't do these things, when people inspect your gear, you'll get passed up for parties in favor of people that have +1 gear.

All of these mechanics are "not fun" to anyone that wants to have a regular life and not spend hours "grinding" the game. I never saw a single piece of end game content, arguably when MMO's really start, because of all of these systems and how they play against one another. At least in a game like WoW, it's possible to solo to level cap (though it's faster to pub and run dungeons and also get leveling gear along the way). And get people to the cap without making the process painful. If you want to play other classes you can. I played WoW for a year too during WotC, and I also regret that time.

MMO's in general are too much grind time for basically little to no payoff. The max you can get from them is community and perhaps online friends. They sorely lack in any actual reward outside of giving you a digital item designed to give you a dopamine hit so you can be 1337. The storylines are worthless, they have nothing real to say. At this point in my life I spend a majority of my game time in single player games because they are all much more interesting and more rewarding experiences over killing the same things over and over, doing fetch quests, and doing the same raid content for a year.

Am I wrong? To a lot of people clearly yes. There are tons addicted to their WoW subs and indeed it has printed money for Blizzard for decades. But whatever, I'm good with my position about FFXI, WoW, and all MMO's in general.

Well I was in one of the top guilds if not the top in the game for the majority of the 75 to 90 cap era. I had all jobs to 75 way before level cap was raised and easy leveling became a thing. I was one the earlier people who got Maat's cap. I enjoyed the grind and enjoyed leveling. The spawn system was one of the best part lol. The shit talking and MPKing the claiming group. The drama thar followed. Good times. Game now is piss easy. You could get to 99 in a day now with some help which doesn't mean much actually now since there is merit points, job levels and master levels now. The new lvl 75 era private server has been pretty damn popular. They been rocking 4k+ players since release in December. I really want to get back into it since I see a lot of old faces I knew from long ago joined the private server. I just don't have the time or energy anymore.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

When was the last time you played FFXI? Leveling is very fast now. It took me about 2 years, myself, with a regular group that included friends meeting up in my apartment to hit 75 my first time. On my first fresh character back to the game a few years ago it only took me about a month to hit 75 by myself. No Linkshell group to help me get there. And I only played around 3 hours a night after work. Pretty much the only thing you need a group for anymore is the post-game content like Dynamis and its variations. If you want to push to the new level cap of 99 then that is going to take longer.

A long time ago to say the least. I'll put it this way, I had the game both on PS2 and PC. I think there were zero expansions. Might've been one. I don't remember.

Well I was in one of the top guilds if not the top in the game for the majority of the 75 to 90 cap era. I had all jobs to 75 way before level cap was raised and easy leveling became a thing. I was one the earlier people who got Maat's cap. I enjoyed the grind and enjoyed leveling.

That doesn't really convince me to want to go back or think that it's going to be a better game. I think in general MMO's are problematic. Their design is to stretch content and get people to spend as much time and therefore as much money as possible. Even the size of maps isn't for the players benefit. It's to make everything take as long as possible to do (especially considering for the most part they are devoid of content).
I don't value "long" anymore. I value "good". I'd rather play an excellent 10 hour title and pay $60, than a long 10,000 hour game and pay for 2 years of subs + game + expansions. Even if magically it was possible to make the MMO in total cost less than $60, (say free), it wouldn't be worth the time investment. I'd rather still pay the $60 for good and 10 hours.

The spawn system was one of the best part lol. The shit talking and MPKing the claiming group. The drama thar followed. Good times. Game now is piss easy. You could get to 99 in a day now with some help which doesn't mean much actually now since there is merit points, job levels and master levels now. The new lvl 75 era private server has been pretty damn popular. They been rocking 4k+ players since release in December. I really want to get back into it since I see a lot of old faces I knew from long ago joined the private server. I just don't have the time or energy anymore.

Back in "classic" that was one of the most demotivating parts of the game. Want to know what's not fun? Grinding for an hour+ to gain 1/20th-1/10th of a level then losing all of your progress and deleveling due to a gob train. In fact the entire deleveling mechanic was incredibly punishing. This mechanic was also one of the major reasons for discrimination and gear checking people because it was necessary. If your healers couldn't keep people up (due to gear), if your tank could take hits (due to gear), if your dps couldn't coordinate or deal max damage (due to gear), then easily you'd spend hours for zero progress or possibly negative progress. I used to wait for an hour+ just to party and it would be a crap shoot whether that party would be good. It was just as possible to get negative progress than actual progress. I quit basically when I realized that the minimum amount of time that made it "worth" playing in a session was 3 hours+. Otherwise you'd just not get anything done.

 

[vegeta535]

A long time ago to say the least. I'll put it this way, I had the game both on PS2 and PC. I think there were zero expansions. Might've been one. I don't remember.

That doesn't really convince me to want to go back or think that it's going to be a better game. I think in general MMO's are problematic. Their design is to stretch content and get people to spend as much time and therefore as much money as possible. Even the size of maps isn't for the players benefit. It's to make everything take as long as possible to do (especially considering for the most part they are devoid of content).
I don't value "long" anymore. I value "good". I'd rather play an excellent 10 hour title and pay $60, than a long 10,000 hour game and pay for 2 years of subs + game + expansions. Even if magically it was possible to make the MMO in total cost less than $60, (say free), it wouldn't be worth the time investment. I'd rather still pay the $60 for good and 10 hours.

Back in "classic" that was one of the most demotivating parts of the game. Want to know what's not fun? Grinding for an hour+ to gain 1/20th-1/10th of a level then losing all of your progress and deleveling due to a gob train. In fact the entire deleveling mechanic was incredibly punishing. This mechanic was also one of the major reasons for discrimination and gear checking people because it was necessary. If your healers couldn't keep people up (due to gear), if your tank could take hits (due to gear), if your dps couldn't coordinate or deal max damage (due to gear), then easily you'd spend hours for zero progress or possibly negative progress. I used to wait for an hour+ just to party and it would be a crap shoot whether that party would be good. It was just as possible to get negative progress than actual progress. I quit basically when I realized that the minimum amount of time that made it "worth" playing in a session was 3 hours+. Otherwise you'd just not get anything done.

None of that mattered to me. It build tougher players. I can't even play at that level anymore. I was getting my ass handed to my playing on the lvl 75 Private server. I was use to vanilla FFXI and kept trying to solo everything. It has brought back the community feel where people are willing to work together and help each other. In vanilla server no one helps and everyone is running around playing entire parties by themselves now. I really didn't like that. It really wasn't much different then WoW when it first came out. I believe it was brutally hard too. They have also since nerfed the hell out of it and made it casual friendly. It is why I hate FFXIV. It is too easy and never felt satisfying. I spent years camping Fafnir and I have never got the same feeling I had when I finally got the Riddle drop. Out claiming some of the best players in the game solo on King Arthos was a rush. Holding it for 15 while my group came to help kill it with seconds left on rage time and getting speed belt drop was intense. Being game wide first killing Cerberus, Hydra and Khimra. Beating the first to clear Odin. Being one of the first to kill Absolute Virture legitimately. Shit was fire and nothing in all my years of gaming has come close.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

None of that mattered to me. It build tougher players. I can't even play at that level anymore. I was getting my ass handed to my playing on the lvl 75 Private server. I was use to vanilla FFXI and kept trying to solo everything. It has brought back the community feel where people are willing to work together and help each other. In vanilla server no one helps and everyone is running around playing entire parties by themselves now. I really didn't like that. It really wasn't much different then WoW when it first came out. I believe it was brutally hard too. They have also since nerfed the hell out of it and made it casual friendly. It is why I hate FFXIV. It is too easy and never felt satisfying. I spent years camping Fafnir and I have never got the same feeling I had when I finally got the Riddle drop. Out claiming some of the best players in the game solo on King Arthos was a rush. Holding it for 15 while my group came to help kill it with seconds left on rage time and getting speed belt drop was intense. Being game wide first killing Cerberus, Hydra and Khimra. Beating the first to clear Odin. Being one of the first to kill Absolute Virture legitimately. Shit was fire and nothing in all my years of gaming has come close.

Cool. Well it's not difficult to program "hard". May as well play DK Arcade or any Arcade game from the 80's if the value is in ultra punishing, "get good", and death for the smallest of mistakes. In fact, any P2W title (without paying to win) is essentially a game programmed to be unnecessarily hard. Just have mobs that are "bullet sponges" and take 1000+ hits and 2.5 hours to kill, that are capable of 2 shotting any and all players regardless of gear. If you want to sprinkle extra on top, allow others to be able to interfere indiscriminately, or other random mechanics that can kill you that you can't control for extra frustration. Make it impossible to acquire items that make it easier. And make the drop rate for anything worth having 1/10,000. If that's fun for you, then you're spoiled for choice.

I play a game to have fun and for stories. What you're describing is categorically not fun to me. Again, I'm okay with "being wrong". Tons of people are happy to keep paying for this content. Paying me $100k a year to play this stuff like it was my job however, still might not be enough.

 

[GoldenTiger]

I play a game to have fun and for stories.

Some of us play games for challenging gameplay and fun... For me, story is a distant last in why I play video games.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

Some of us play games for challenging gameplay and fun... For me, story is a distant last in why I play video games.

That's fair enough. But at a certain point "being difficult" is worthless. I related that directly to games like the Original Donkey Kong or Pac Man. 1 in a million players can get to the kill screen. Is it worth it to spend 10,000 hours to become good at that game because it's hard?
Similarly people now do "Getting over it" speed runs. A game that is 100% mechanics focused. And frankly as "impressive" as it is to see someone clear it in slightly over a minute, it's a game that is more or less designed to breed annoyance and frustration.

It isn't to say that I don't see the appeal in mechanics focused games. That's basically a description of all platformers from Mario 64 to Castlevania Symphony of the Night or any of the Soul's titles. However even those games which are directly game play driven aren't designed to be an endless grind and are not otherwise incentivized from taking as long as possible to do simple tasks. This is in direct contrast to MMO's and "open world games".

I think there is a big difference between "sandbox games"/MMOs vs games that are mechanics driven. Because there is also no way you can tell me that FF XI has more intricate inputs than SF3: Third Strike. And also a game of Third Strike lasts at most 3 minutes. Whereas FF XI is "infinite".

Mario 64 is fun. FFXI isn't. *opinions*

But anyway, I don't really see the point in posting back to me. I'm not going to change my mind and it's just my opinion. Again, millions of people gave their money to all of these MMO's. So obviously I'm in the minority and who cares about my vote. Believe me when I say most game companies do not cater to me or games I want to play because clearly there is less money in them.
On topic with this thread, I really liked the DX games despite them not being as good as the original(s), and they still didn't "sell enough" for Square to not put Eidos on the chopping block.

 

[vegeta535]

Different strokes for different folks. I found SM64 and FFXI fun.

 

[Armenius]

A long time ago to say the least. I'll put it this way, I had the game both on PS2 and PC. I think there were zero expansions. Might've been one. I don't remember.

That doesn't really convince me to want to go back or think that it's going to be a better game. I think in general MMO's are problematic. Their design is to stretch content and get people to spend as much time and therefore as much money as possible. Even the size of maps isn't for the players benefit. It's to make everything take as long as possible to do (especially considering for the most part they are devoid of content).
I don't value "long" anymore. I value "good". I'd rather play an excellent 10 hour title and pay $60, than a long 10,000 hour game and pay for 2 years of subs + game + expansions. Even if magically it was possible to make the MMO in total cost less than $60, (say free), it wouldn't be worth the time investment. I'd rather still pay the $60 for good and 10 hours.

Back in "classic" that was one of the most demotivating parts of the game. Want to know what's not fun? Grinding for an hour+ to gain 1/20th-1/10th of a level then losing all of your progress and deleveling due to a gob train. In fact the entire deleveling mechanic was incredibly punishing. This mechanic was also one of the major reasons for discrimination and gear checking people because it was necessary. If your healers couldn't keep people up (due to gear), if your tank could take hits (due to gear), if your dps couldn't coordinate or deal max damage (due to gear), then easily you'd spend hours for zero progress or possibly negative progress. I used to wait for an hour+ just to party and it would be a crap shoot whether that party would be good. It was just as possible to get negative progress than actual progress. I quit basically when I realized that the minimum amount of time that made it "worth" playing in a session was 3 hours+. Otherwise you'd just not get anything done.

The player who would have the role of pulling mobs would certainly make or break your party. At higher levels it's also about getting the big experience chains going, and not a whole lot of people could do it well. One of my friends in the old days played a Ranger and he was an absolute pro at stacking mobs for chains.

 

[Yossarian22]

I wish you smooth sailing. Try not to lose too many brain cells along the way.

Because I want an RPG to have a somewhat coherent story or because I'm tired of in-your-face subversion in Western media at large? Try to be specific next time, please.

Going by the other posts, it seems like SE has somewhat unrealistic expectations in their corporate "targets" as UnknownSouljer has mentioned. I guess that makes sense to the why? of SE's aggressive strategy going forward. Gaccha, NFTs, et al.

 

[vegeta535]

The player who would have the role of pulling mobs would certainly make or break your party. At higher levels it's also about getting the big experience chains going, and not a whole lot of people could do it well. One of my friends in the old days played a Ranger and he was an absolute pro at stacking mobs for chains.

Ah ranger. I was one of the best rangers out there. I even beat Kclub darks knights in the dynamics lord I'm parses. I had relic now and gun back in the day.a I was mostly a career blm for in my group thought. Which I kinda hated since I was in stun duty a lot of the time when it was needed.

 

[Armenius]

Ah ranger. I was one of the best rangers out there. I even beat Kclub darks knights in the dynamics lord I'm parses. I had relic now and gun back in the day.a I was mostly a career blm for in my group thought. Which I kinda hated since I was in stun duty a lot of the time when it was needed.

Yeah, that is why I never played Black Mage very much. At least as a Dark Knight I could still contribute to DPS if I had to be on Stun duty, and I could still tank damage if I pulled hate away from the main tank.

 

[vegeta535]

Yeah, that is why I never played Black Mage very much. At least as a Dark Knight I could still contribute to DPS if I had to be on Stun duty, and I could still tank damage if I pulled hate away from the main tank.

I only level BLM to get into endgame. I really wasn't much I to the support healer classes.

 

[Flogger23m]

Because I want an RPG to have a somewhat coherent story or because I'm tired of in-your-face subversion in Western media at large? Try to be specific next time, please.

That is true. Japanese games have always had faults but at least you don't get much cringe pandering in them. You still get cringe Japanese aspects, but in general I am feeling those tend to be less annoying than what we see in many western games these days.

 

[Lakados]

That is true. Japanese games have always had faults but at least you don't get much cringe pandering in them. You still get cringe Japanese aspects, but in general I am feeling those tend to be less annoying than what we see in many western games these days.

They are both painfully cringeworthy, just one is wearing a miniskirt whose length is somehow a negative number

 

[Dan_D]

They are both painfully cringeworthy, just one is wearing a miniskirt whose length is somehow a negative number

I'm with you. There are certain Japanese tropes that are pretty awful.