Also, anything we've discussed thus far would sound better than these. Just FYI since they're a new factor for you.
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Speakers for my computer
- Thread starter Rinthe
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Also, anything we've discussed thus far would sound better than these. Just FYI since they're a new factor for you.
so even with the av40s i won't get good bass unless i get a sub?
if i do get a sub, is it hard to hook up?
There's been a bit of discussion about Klipsch recently that should turn up in search easily, so I won't go into it much...basically they were targeting a similar market to Logitech's higher end stuff, but are getting out of it since they can't hold as thin a margin on it and have better ways to make profit. Either way, you're putting them up against speakers with - at a quick calculation - somewhere slightly over double their internal volume. It's hardly a fair fight; the physics involved means they can't economically produce as good a sound as you can get from a speaker with a much greater volume and driver surface area. The high-range stuff is probably fine, since it can rely on driver velocity to achieve decent displacement, and there are plenty of resonance modes at higher frequencies even with a small interior volume. However, the mids and especially lows will have no way to stand up to a larger driver and cabinet. Nothing against Klipsch - they're just trying to build a different type of beast.
Good is relative, but yeah, the bass without a sub is not going to be nearly as good as it will be with one. BUT - It's quite tolerable with a good 2.0 system, so if your budget won't allow it, don't feel compelled to get one just yet. A powered sub is not really any different to hook up than any other speaker. It's simply a matter of connecting its inputs to the right outputs of your source. Plug and play, literally.
There are a few things to adjust with a sub to get optimal sound. The positioning in your room can have a significant effect on exactly how good the bass sounds, and you may need to mess around with what frequencies go to the sub and what frequencies don't (the sub often has a dial on the back to deal with this - it's not hard, you just fiddle with it until you like the result).
does the dayton sub come with all the cables needed?
I have the M-audio AV40's and I love them. Also they do not have a built in DAC, thats the Behringer MS20's. The AV40 have analog inputs.
I also just added a Dayton 8" sub this week and I really like it, this setup absolutely blows away my old Klipsch promedia 5.1 setup.
I haven't heard the Swans so I can't give any comparisons between those and the M-Audios, but IMO I don't think you will be disappointed if you get the M-Audio. The bass with the AV40's isn't huge, but its very respectable, I went for over a month without a sub and they sounded very nice without a sub, it just sounds more complete now. I also decided to buy an inexpensive compact TCC TC-754 preamp that I found on ebay to control the volume and be able to add more sources to my system later on. The preamp is here http://www.phonopreamps.com/TC754eb.html if you're interested, it isn't required, but I like having a volume knob handy while I'm gaming without having to change the volume in windows.
I also just added a Dayton 8" sub this week and I really like it, this setup absolutely blows away my old Klipsch promedia 5.1 setup.
I haven't heard the Swans so I can't give any comparisons between those and the M-Audios, but IMO I don't think you will be disappointed if you get the M-Audio. The bass with the AV40's isn't huge, but its very respectable, I went for over a month without a sub and they sounded very nice without a sub, it just sounds more complete now. I also decided to buy an inexpensive compact TCC TC-754 preamp that I found on ebay to control the volume and be able to add more sources to my system later on. The preamp is here http://www.phonopreamps.com/TC754eb.html if you're interested, it isn't required, but I like having a volume knob handy while I'm gaming without having to change the volume in windows.
oh yea, what type of music did you listen to with the m40s without the sub?
My assumption is not, but they're very cheap if you don't try to get them from Best Buy or Radio Shack. Corey just got one and would know better what extras (if any) it is packaged with.
Well I listen to mostly rock/classic rock/metal and for that the M-Audios were nice, but with the sub I really hear all the bass guitar and the kick drum, now its really nice 
The sub didn't come packed with any RCA cables, but they have them for really cheap on the partsexpress site, and they didn't add anything to the shipping cost. I got the 8" sub and 2 six foot RCA cables for about $101 shipped.
The sub didn't come packed with any RCA cables, but they have them for really cheap on the partsexpress site, and they didn't add anything to the shipping cost. I got the 8" sub and 2 six foot RCA cables for about $101 shipped.
Well I listen to mostly rock/classic rock/metal and for that the M-Audios were nice, but with the sub I really hear all the bass guitar and the kick drum, now its really nice
The sub didn't come packed with any RCA cables, but they have them for really cheap on the partsexpress site, and they didn't add anything to the shipping cost. I got the 8" sub and 2 six foot RCA cables for about $101 shipped.
why do you need 2 cables? can you give me a link to the RCA cable?
The sub processes the low-frequency sound from both front channels. Therefore, it needs input from both front channels. The RCA connector for the sub you'll see on many receivers is a stereo connection, which you then split for the L/R inputs on the sub.
Due to the frequencies involved, you can't really place the sound the sub handles very well anyway, so this is fine. OTOH it's not entirely perfect, which is why some tower speakers that cost several times your budget each will have an integrated sub on each channel.
Due to the frequencies involved, you can't really place the sound the sub handles very well anyway, so this is fine. OTOH it's not entirely perfect, which is why some tower speakers that cost several times your budget each will have an integrated sub on each channel.
I needed 2 cables because I'm running the sub and monitors in parallel from the output on the preamp.
1 of these http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-530
and 1 of these stacked on top of the other http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=240-027
The sub does have a line-level rca preout, so you could daisy chain the monitors through the sub if you wanted to. I just wanted to do it this way instead. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-631
err sorry i didn't really get that, but does that mean i only need 1 cable?
The M-Audios come with a cable to connect from the 3.5mm jack on your motherboard straight to the speakers. To daisy chain them you would just run that 3.5mm to rca cable from your PC to the sub, and then you would need to get 1 more rca cable to run from the sub to the speakers.
those 2 RCA cables you showed me, are they different?
alright thanks! also your sound card, does that make a difference in the quality of the sound? ashmedai said that if i get av40's i won't be able to upgrade it even if i get better sound cards.. so i'm a little confused here
That was with reference to replacing the DAC. If he's right and they don't have integrated D --> A signal processing, then it's irrelevant.
Your D/A conversion is currently going on in the motherboard. Replacing the DAC later with a higher-quality one that doesn't have the added noise from the other computer components will give you a cleaner signal that better approximates the original recording. BUT, you can only perform the conversion once, so if the speakers have a built in component doing it, you wouldn't be able to do it in a different device of your choosing without also replacing the speakers.
Again, irrelevant if he's right about them. Any time the speakers take digital input, it is performing the D/A conversion. If it's fed analog, then it is not.
Your D/A conversion is currently going on in the motherboard. Replacing the DAC later with a higher-quality one that doesn't have the added noise from the other computer components will give you a cleaner signal that better approximates the original recording. BUT, you can only perform the conversion once, so if the speakers have a built in component doing it, you wouldn't be able to do it in a different device of your choosing without also replacing the speakers.
Again, irrelevant if he's right about them. Any time the speakers take digital input, it is performing the D/A conversion. If it's fed analog, then it is not.
I know that I hear a bit more detail in games with the sound card, but honestly didn't hear a big difference in music, but it was better. I got my card on the cheap when there was a rebate on it so I don't regret buying it. However, I don't think there was a huge difference between the soundcard and onboard sound, so if a soundcard isn't in your budget right now you could defiinitely get by without one for a while.
Ashmedai's comment about not being able to upgrade the av40's was based on the assumption that they had a dac built in, but they don't, they have analog inputs so an external dac added later could improve the sound.
edit- One more thought about the soundcard, I'm probably going to be making mine unnecesary sooner or later, since I have some nice new headphones on the way I'm thinking about getting a Zero dac headamp to run my phones off of, and then run the preamp out from the Zero to my speakers. As far as I know a digital signal from the onboard sound or a soundcard will be identical and I could do without the soundcard at all, at least from a sound standpoint. There is still the argument that a soundcard can squeeze that last few fps out of games by taking the sound processing load off the cpu.
volume? the x-540s can go pretty loud
Yup. Take the sub away and the 1080s will take those titchy little satellites back behind the woodshed and beat the hell out of them. Big, huge difference in overall sound.
did you mean to take the subs away from the x540 or 1080?
what about 1080s with the sub?
so do you think the 8" sub is good enough? would the 10" be a lot better?
The 8" sub is more than enough for me, it puts out a lot of bass. I have the gain turned up maybe about 3/4 on the sub to match the speakers without the bass being too overpowering, but I'm still tweaking it.
Also I switched my wiring to have the M-Audios run off the preout on the sub because I was getting a nasty pop from the sub when I switched the amp in the speakers on and off, now its gone.
The Dif b/w the 8" and 10" isn't much. B/w the 8 and 12 there is a noticable diff.
Getting an external dac is the best way of cleaning up the sound.
The 1080s are the best speakers if you can afford a sound card or better external dac or receiver. Yes they could use a subwoofer for optimal carnage but would be ok for awhile without it.
The AV40s are the cheaper way of doing all of the above but REALLY need a sub too.
Kind of a tossup. I would opt for the 1080s and a receiver then get a sub later.
Getting an external dac is the best way of cleaning up the sound.
The 1080s are the best speakers if you can afford a sound card or better external dac or receiver. Yes they could use a subwoofer for optimal carnage but would be ok for awhile without it.
The AV40s are the cheaper way of doing all of the above but REALLY need a sub too.
Kind of a tossup. I would opt for the 1080s and a receiver then get a sub later.
oh but i wouldn't get enough bass without the sub right?
well if i do get a sound card, which one do you recommend?
Sorry, that would be a bit confusing. I was actually thinking about the volume as in the internal space, L x W x H. With a larger volume, the possible internal modes of vibration increase - most particularly at lower frequencies. For example, a 1kHz pulse has a wavelength of over a foot! And that's not even down to "subwoofer" frequencies. If there isn't enough room inside the cabinet for a pulse of that wavelength to oscillate, my understanding is that it will attenuate the tar out of those frequencies.
I guess the volume LxWxH is part of the physics behind why the volume (sound) produced suffers. Even if you can just shove higher voltages through the Logitech speaker to make it have the same loudness as a larger speaker, it will do so at the cost of distorting the sound very badly.
Spaceman spells out a pretty solid upgrade path that allows for incremental additions as you have more money and a desire for even better sound.
As to the sub sizes: let's pretend for ease of calculation that we're talking about drivers which are flat disks instead of cones (close enough since they have to emit sound through a flat plane). The 8" sub gives us a baseline area of 201 inches squared. The 10" sub increases that to 314 in sq, or 156% of the 8" sub. The 12" sub gives 452 inches squared, or two and a quarter times the surface area of the 8" sub. This is why it works out as described. Also, this is just a rough estimate - in actuality, because of the low frequency problem, the increase in ability with surface area will be larger than this shows (small speakers can't displace enough air when they are not vibrating rapidly to produce useful sound, large speakers can vibrate much more slowly because they have more area to push with).
damn good ashmedia. you are far less lazy than I in descriptions.
my way: bigger speakers = more sound with less volume needed. aka you do not have to turn it up to hear everything.
However, if we are talking nearfield, aka desktop pc sound, then the 8" will do fine and dandy but more is always better with bass.
Look up line source speakers just for fun lol. I wish!!
my way: bigger speakers = more sound with less volume needed. aka you do not have to turn it up to hear everything.
However, if we are talking nearfield, aka desktop pc sound, then the 8" will do fine and dandy but more is always better with bass.
Look up line source speakers just for fun lol. I wish!!
ahhh!! thanks for the detailed description!
spaceman: so for sound card, which do you recommend?
Space don't like sound cards lol. I would spend the $$ on a receiver first. Just my opinion that the receivers do just fine with optical out from the pc. They have multiple inputs and usually one output all digital. Plus, they have a better amp on them for headphones or speakers. Flexible. That is what you want nowadays.
buuuut if you insist, the cheapest real x-fi aka not xtreme audio x-fi is ok too.
buuuut if you insist, the cheapest real x-fi aka not xtreme audio x-fi is ok too.
what is the difference? how much would a receiver cost?