So I'm creating a 3d workstation....

E

Eduardo

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Sep 5, 2001
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I'm going to animating a SHITLOAD of stuff withen 3dsmax soon so I was looking to create a dual 3.2ghz xeon system, and possibly adding a pure p1800 down the line.... I'm a home pc guy and this is my first attempt at creating a pro workstation, so any suggestions/advice are more then welcome. initial budget is about $3500 and I'd like to stay away from SCSI solutions since I have a bunch of SATA drives sitting around my house
 
get a big case. Don't waste your money on Professional graphics cards. Buy a gaming "identical cousin" to a FireGL or QuadroFX and Rivatune it.
 
Mr. Tinker said:
get a big case. Don't waste your money on Professional graphics cards. Buy a gaming "identical cousin" to a FireGL or QuadroFX and Rivatune it.
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Unless of course you need absolute stability.
 
Our animators and CADD people and even our modellers all use the dell dualies. the precision workstations. say what you want about dell, but that dual xeon with a couple gigs of ram smokes, and if it ever dies, they're great about sending us repairmen.

QM

Just my $.02 by the way.
 
quasimodem said:
Our animators and CADD people and even our modellers all use the dell dualies. the precision workstations. say what you want about dell, but that dual xeon with a couple gigs of ram smokes, and if it ever dies, they're great about sending us repairmen.

QM

Just my $.02 by the way.
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Yeah, this is true.
You may be a good builder, but I always like the ability to call someone and they send out the replacement parts. Instead of me having to front the money myself.

You will pay a price premium, but you are getting peace of mind in return.
Plus if you get the 3 year warranty, and the machine breaks far enough down the line, you will probably get better parts in return.
 
Moog said:
Unless of course you need absolute stability.
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No, the Quadro equivalent will not add any stability, since the "cousins" are as physically identical as two of the same product, with the exception of the name in the bios and a hardware device id. let me say it one more time THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT THING!
 
Mr. Tinker said:
No, the Quadro equivalent will not add any stability, since the "cousins" are as physically identical as two of the same product, with the exception of the name in the bios and a hardware device id. let me say it one more time THEY ARE THE SAME EXACT THING!
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Sorry Mr. Tinker, you are wrong. I suggest very highly that you read this: http://www.pny.com/support/downloads/quadro_geforce.pdf

Yes, these cards are more than double the price of their gaming counterparts, but essential if you use pro apps like Max or Maya.

I used gamer cards for years. Finally got a QuadroFX 3400 and let me tell you, the differencce is amazing. Advanced application functions work perfectly and graphical glitches are a thing of the past.

Also worth mentioning, the QuadroFX 3400 (essentially a 6800 Gt at its core) also plays games perfectly. Yes, the framerates aren't top-o-the-line, but unless you need the crazy framerates a la 6800 Ultra, then you won't notice a difference. I play Half-Life2 at 1920x1200 with 8x anisotropic filtering and 4x AA. My framerates are well over 50+ fps.

Oh yeah, look into the Opteron for your processors, and don't get anything less than model 248's.
 
Sorry, bud - You're wrong and here's why:

First of all, you're using a document published by a card maker who wants you to believe that there is difference between Quadro and GeForce so they can sell the Quadros at a higher price point. That document refers to stock performance of retail cards. It does not address performance of cards running on unintended driver sets, the way we do with rivatuner.

I assume you haven't used rivatuner yet.

You don't weem to get what I am talking about. Two versions (such as the QuadroFX 4000 and my 6800GT) roll through most of the same exact manufacturing line. They then get different BIOS's (and sometimes maybe a deviceID resistor or two). When the card is installed, the drivers recognize from the deviceID which card it is and run the appropriate drivers for it. The difference in performance between equivalent cards is accounted for by the fact that different driver sets are written to utilize the architecture in different ways. Quadro drivers are optimized for OpenGL performance, Geforce drivers are optimized for DirectX.

The physical core silicon of your 3400 IS THE SAME as the quadro4000, geforce 6800U, 6800GT, and 6800 (there may be others). You could rivatune your 3400 into a 6800GT and get better gaming performance.

You make your own decision to believe me or not, but my 6800GT rivatuned to a Quadro4000 gets the same scores as a retail Quadro4000 and is just as stable.

IF YOU STILL DON'T BELIEVE ME LOOK HERE!!!!!
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123844&highlight=softquadro+benchmarks

Jeez...
 
I was always under the impression that the pro/wrokstation/quadro/fireGL cards were much more accurate when it comes to rendering, and that it has been tested and proven to do so in the manufacturer's QA process. I.E. yeah it doesn't matter that the intersection of two vertices isn't exact when you are playing doom...but when you are designing a bridge that will have to be exact to the fraction of a mm or things won't work properly. The price reflected the level of precision expected in the output of the card.

It is nice to think that a $350 card is the same as a card more than twice its cost, but from all of my experience I am guessing its more than enabling a switch. I guess it could be another situtation like the "enable the dissabled pipes" hacks that float around, but there are cards where those hacks work, and those that don't...

You are paying for a card that is a Guaranteed QA Certified Professional Graphics Solution...you could hack the 6800GT, but then again there is no guarantee you are getting the quality you need...
 
More often than not it boils down to hardware issues than driver issues. The time spent on professional graphics card drivers is where the quality comes from. Hardware can be made as accurate as you want it to be, bad drivers can mess up even the best hardware. For games, like what was said above, they trade off speed for minor glitches, things you don't eve see at 60 fps. When it comes down to professional cards though, every bit of accuracy is important.
 
I was in the same boat. Here's my setup (it was modified from the original setup just recently):


Asus PC-DL
2 Xeon [email protected]
2 gigs Mushkin UTT
6800GT @ Quadro 4000 (on work partition--still the game card for other partition)
Audigy (KK drivers on work, softmodded ones on game)
W.D. 74 gig Raptor
4 Maxtor Diamondmax 10 250gig 16mb cache for RAID10
LG DVD burner
OCZ 520 Powerstream
Antec 330 Trupower (hooked up with a 12v relay)

Watercooled in cases that I modified.

Xeons are the budget duals as of now (AMD XP's are, too, but they're a bit long in the tooth). Opterons are for zee people with $$ until the Nforce4 boards come out cheaper (ala new MSI board).

If you're worried about professional CAD accuracy, get an Ati card and softFireGL it. The softQuadro's don't have hardware AA and a few other things.
EDIT: At least that's what I've heard--I use a 6800GT and it meets all of my needs in Premiere, 3dsmax, After Effects, Solid Edge, AutoCAD, Landdesktop, Raster Design, etc. Oddly enough, as a Quadro it doesn't display textures right in UnrealED, but that is fixed if I use it on the other partition. Small glitch that I really don't care enough about to track down :shrug:
 
Mr. Tinker said:
Jeez...
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Mr. Tinkz0rz,
Performance-wise, you are absolutely correct. FUNCTIONALITY is my point. But, you go ahead and get yer cheap little card. Don't come crying to the forums when your hardware renders don't turn out right. I'll admit the price of the Quadros is excessive merely for getting different drivers with the exact same card, but if you are BUYING 3D software that will benefit from it, then money is likely not as much of an issue. Oh yeah, synthetic benchmarks are all well and good, but have you actually used said software in any kind of production environemnt? Your h/\X0r3d Quadro may not be up to the challenge me thinks.

But hey, if it's just tinkering that needs to be done, buy the cheap card, tweak it and be happy. :)
 
I would deffinatly go with Xeons, and Hyperthreading. If you can wait, Dual Core will be out summer time... Thats not too far off and will offer tremendous performance gains in the department you are lookinng into.
 
atomo said:
Mr. Tinkz0rz,
Don't come crying to the forums when your hardware renders don't turn out right. I'll admit the price of the Quadros is excessive merely for getting different drivers with the exact same card, but if you are BUYING 3D software that will benefit from it, then money is likely not as much of an issue.
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AFAIK, rendering is 100% cpu, hence rendering farms where each comp doesn't have a quadroFX/fireGL. As for your second statement, you contradict your own point! If you accept the fact that they are identical save drivers... then isn't softmodding to a quadro and using quadro drivers exactly like buying one?
 
I guess I'll throw in my 2c also...

I worked for a long time as a 3d max developer and used cards like Elsa Gloria XXLs, Quadros and 3D Labs Wildcat cards.

I've worked with 3D animators that have rendered for Pixar, Disney, Sony and ILM. They all have basically the same opinion on this issue...and that is the main reasons why the professionals work with "professional" cards over "enthusiast" cards is because of driver support and the fact that it looks good, from a marketing perspective, if you can tell your clients/potential clients that your studio or office has such-in-such number of such-in-such computers with such-in-such professional render graphics cards.

For the average 3d animator/developer, it's more than enough to have a good enthusiast card modded with pro drivers (like an Nvidia card with Maxtreme drivers or ATI modded with FireGL or XL drivers). Unless you are pulling down really really good money doing 3d or work at a studio or in a 3D production department, it's really not the wise decision to spend money on a "3d development" card.

That's just my opinion and the opinion of a few others. Buy whatever you want.
 
Just my 2 cents (CDN). about 3d pro cards.

Im an ameture in the 3D field, it's what I'm going to go to college for, but Im just starting out. I dunno much about Zeons or opterons. But I know that, rather then getting dual Quadro 4400s, Get 2 6800GTs (or Ultras) and water cool them. Im saying like, something that cools both the GPU and the Ram (best would be TEC Cooling) and then, using rivatuner, make it into dual Quadro 4000Gs. It's the best for your money. Unless you ABSOLUTELY need every single little spec of performance. Like, if you work in 3 day deadlines. Or, if you are getting money to do this (from whatever company you work for. like "Heres $5000, go make a workstation") then getting actual workstation cards arn't really neccissary.
 
Vertigo Acid said:
AFAIK, rendering is 100% cpu
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I guess you didn't notice I stated HARDWARE RENDERING. This a feature in some modern 3D apps that allow rendering to be done by the GPU. The current crop of video cards have a lot of functionality and the GeForce/Quadro cards have more transistors than most CPU's. Hardware rendering taps this power.

Vertigo Acid said:
As for your second statement, you contradict your own point! If you accept the fact that they are identical save drivers... then isn't softmodding to a quadro and using quadro drivers exactly like buying one?
Click to expand...

A contradiction how? As for the result of doing the softmod, it seems like that's what all these monkey's are debating. Sustainable framerates vs. Maximum framerates.Like I said, if you want absolute FUNCTIONALITY, spend the big $$$ for a Quadro, but if you're just tinkering save the cash and go with the gamer cards.
 
Hate_Bot said:
Just my 2 cents (CDN). about 3d pro cards.

Im an ameture in the 3D field, it's what I'm going to go to college for, but Im just starting out. I dunno much about Zeons or opterons. But I know that, rather then getting dual Quadro 4400s, Get 2 6800GTs (or Ultras) and water cool them. Im saying like, something that cools both the GPU and the Ram (best would be TEC Cooling) and then, using rivatuner, make it into dual Quadro 4000Gs. It's the best for your money. Unless you ABSOLUTELY need every single little spec of performance. Like, if you work in 3 day deadlines. Or, if you are getting money to do this (from whatever company you work for. like "Heres $5000, go make a workstation") then getting actual workstation cards arn't really neccissary.
Click to expand...
If you don't know about it, don't throw in your .02.
 
atomo said:
Mr. Tinkz0rz,
Performance-wise, you are absolutely correct. FUNCTIONALITY is my point. But, you go ahead and get yer cheap little card. Don't come crying to the forums when your hardware renders don't turn out right. I'll admit the price of the Quadros is excessive merely for getting different drivers with the exact same card, but if you are BUYING 3D software that will benefit from it, then money is likely not as much of an issue. Oh yeah, synthetic benchmarks are all well and good, but have you actually used said software in any kind of production environemnt? Your h/\X0r3d Quadro may not be up to the challenge me thinks.

But hey, if it's just tinkering that needs to be done, buy the cheap card, tweak it and be happy. :)
Click to expand...

I'm a professional 3D animator. The functionality is the same. My hardware preview renders are beautiful and I can max out every display option possible. If you want to believe the propoganda, go ahead.
 
atomo said:
I guess you didn't notice I stated HARDWARE RENDERING. This a feature in some modern 3D apps that allow rendering to be done by the GPU. The current crop of video cards have a lot of functionality and the GeForce/Quadro cards have more transistors than most CPU's. Hardware rendering taps this power.

A contradiction how? As for the result of doing the softmod, it seems like that's what all these monkey's are debating. Sustainable framerates vs. Maximum framerates.Like I said, if you want absolute FUNCTIONALITY, spend the big $$$ for a Quadro, but if you're just tinkering save the cash and go with the gamer cards.
Click to expand...

Vertigo Acid is right. It comes down to drivers. Look, you obviously don't know the in's and out's of what happens when you softmod, or what hardware rendering is. There's no such thing as mixing Raytraced rendering and API (openGL/DirectX) rendering. You may be misreading the product descriptions of your 3d app.
 
I will admit there are times when having professional drivers come in handy. I have seen many times when a scene with complex particle modifiers just didn't look as "rendered" on a video card without "pro" drivers as on video cards with "pro" drivers. Those situations were not common however, and we usually reserved using the really really good (usually wildcats at the time) video cards with the really tweaked drivers for showing or storyboarding a scene to our production supervisor.

However, as time goes by I see less and less difference between pro drivers and regular drivers. But, there are times when the professional drivers can be needed. But, I just usually use the hacked ones using rivatuner.

There are some cards on the market that are dedicated hardware rendering cards and are NOT to be confused with gaming video cards. These cards are powerful, fast and can beat the hell out of any "graphics" card on the market, but you pay a high premium for these cards.

I remember using Heidi drivers on my Elsa card and being amazed. That type of driver was designed to render only those elements or parts of the scene that changed from one frame to the next. That's still a technology that I think could be used in today's production level 3d development, but it has fallen out of favor...seeing as how cheap it is to manufacture the nvidia and ati cards that are optimized for opengl and directx.
 
Mr. Tinker said:
There's no such thing as mixing Raytraced rendering and API (openGL/DirectX) rendering. You may be misreading the product descriptions of your 3d app.
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Where exactly in my post did I mention MIXING two types of rendering? Does anyone actually read an entire post before replying? To be even more specific, Alias Maya supports a hardware render feature. Rendering is done with the video card. Check it out here: http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/technical_features/rendering.shtml
You'll notice there is also a link for qualified hardware on that page.

;)
 
I work for a workstation systems integrator...all of our customers purchase the professional OpenGL cards.

Look at it this way...the fact that large studios are paying the development costs of these specialized drivers by paying the full price of the Quadro/FireGL line, and the fact that the physical architecture is the same between GPUs, allows you, the individual, to get the same performance out of the consumer part...

So I say, go for it!
 
Hate_Bot said:
... People on these boards don't like (or understand) opinions do they...
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no they don't... you should see the discussion about win2k3 server as gamestation or windows services and their needs.. Every time its the same thing. Sad in a somewhat progessional forum like this... :(
 
The only reason these "professional" graphics solutions exist is for large companies to outfit their workstations with cards they can get warrantied. You simply can't get 6800 GTs, softmod them, then expect to keep the warranty as such. Moreover the time spent configuring said cards into Quadros is sunk. There is no difference, so get over it already.
 
atomo said:
Where exactly in my post did I mention MIXING two types of rendering? Does anyone actually read an entire post before replying? To be even more specific, Alias Maya supports a hardware render feature. Rendering is done with the video card. Check it out here: http://www.alias.com/eng/products-services/maya/technical_features/rendering.shtml
You'll notice there is also a link for qualified hardware on that page.

;)
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You're right, you didn't mention mixing. But...
Alias Wavefront said:
Quickly generate images for pre-visualization and broadcast quality final output. With interactive high quality hardware rendering, you’ll see representations of your work in the scene views as you build and modify them.
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They're talking primarily about preview renders, and also crappy real-time TV graphics that no quality-respecting animator would use. I could do that with my card, but it looks like butt--and don't try and say that it's because I'm a bad animator.

I think you're unwilling to believe the fact that there is no difference because you don't want to be wrong in your decision to buy a 3400 and so you can feel better than those who softmod. Your ivory tower is actually made of plastic, bud. But the manufacturer told you different, so you believed them.
 
Mr. Tinker said:
Your ivory tower is actually made of plastic, bud. But the manufacturer told you different, so you believed them.
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My Ivory tower is actually an illusion generated in real-time with my 3400 card. ;)
 
God, HardOCP really has gone into the shitter in the past 5 years. atomo is an arch-n00b.

Professional graphics cards are priced the way they are because of performance of quality advantages compared to their gaming cousins. They are priced that way BECAUSE THE MARKET ALLOWS THEM TO DO SO. The 'pro' drivers are OpenGL-optimized, the 'consumer' drivers are DirectX-optimized. Sure, they could use the same drivers for both cards but then they would have no way to stratify their product lines to allow them to charge $1000 for a professional card and $300 for a consumer card. Since most games now are DirectX and most graphics and visualization apps are OpenGL, they can obtain the needed product stratification through drivers.

One other thing they do (much to my annoyance) is put dual-link TMDS tranceivers in their professional cards and not in their consumer cards.

However, the bulk of the hardware is identical. The same. Not different. Softmodding produces a card that is functionally identical to a professional card both in hardware and drivers. There is no magical 'quality' difference.

Believe what you want, but the motivation for the pricing differences is economics. nVidia and ATI are able to sell assloads of low-margin consumer cards and a decent number of high-margin professional cards. Its that simple.
 
I'm still on the fence about soft modding... all the benchmarks I've seen compare the non-modded gaming card to the softmodded version.... which is still a marked improvement, but I don't want to see a card up against itself with some new drivers/unlocked features/bios, what I want to see is 3 benchmarks, gamer card vs softmodded gamer card vs pro card...all with the same test setup in the same system, even post screenshots of viewports so that we can see any degredation due to driver issues, this beast of a benchmark hasn't been done yet to my knowledge and would certainly settle the debate for quite a few peeps
 
Ubiquity said:
God, HardOCP really has gone into the shitter in the past 5 years.
Click to expand...

Wow, if you hate HardOCP so much, you should complain about your dual-link TMDS lacking-ass some other place. ;)


Ubiquity said:
Believe what you want, but the motivation for the pricing differences is economics. nVidia and ATI are able to sell assloads of low-margin consumer cards and a decent number of high-margin professional cards. Its that simple.
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I hope you enjoy living in the low-margin, because you look kinda silly from waaay up on my high-margin 3400 card ivory tower.

Seeing as that I have an SLI capable mobo, I think I'll buy TWO(2) 3400 cards at twice the price, just because I can. I'd opt for the 4400's, but that's just silly don't you think?
 
atomo said:
Wow, if you hate HardOCP so much, you should complain about your dual-link TMDS lacking-ass some other place. ;)

I hope you enjoy living in the low-margin, because you look kinda silly from waaay up on my high-margin 3400 card ivory tower.

Seeing as that I have an SLI capable mobo, I think I'll buy TWO(2) 3400 cards at twice the price, just because I can. I'd opt for the 4400's, but that's just silly don't you think?
Click to expand...

Was that actually supposed to be an insult of some sort? Most people don't usually gloat about spending too much money for things because they're ignorant.

But yes, SLI is pretty silly now that you mention it.
 
Ubiquity said:
Most people don't usually gloat about spending too much money for things because they're ignorant.
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Well, I'm glad I stay informed. ;)
 
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