Hey, I'm looking to build a new desktop shortly (thinking I should wait for Vista SP1 or at least until nVidia releases some drivers to get some better gaming results for their G80) and am considering watercooling. I've never used a watercooling system and have been trying to read up about it. The only silent water cooling system I know of is the Zalman Reserator series. Are there any other systems that are totally silent or near silent?? Is it even possible to cool a single 8800GTX and a QX6700?? Would having two watercooling systems be better? Would it be worth it to include the NB/SB, memory, PSU, HD or any other part in the water cooling loop, and if so what would be the "best" (subjective) pathway? Thanks a lot!!
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Silent water cooling?
- Thread starter sgogeta4
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Arcygenical
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I wouldn't...
If you have the room for a triple radiator... Attach 6 fans to it and run them at 5v. Depending on the fan, you won't be hearing too much (4 yate loon fans at 5v are quieter than 17dba, the limit of my decibel meter... for reference 20db is about as loud as a whisper) and the cooling potential will be somewhat 300% greater than running a passive rad.
Hell, even a double radiator with 2 yates at 5v should cool better than a reserator 2.
The problem with the reserator 2 is also the pump. It's not that great. The blocks arn't very good too.
If you're serious about silent cooling... I'd grab a double or a triple radiator and run some 5v yate loon fans... And, on the non window (assuming you have one) side of your case, slap on a large Cape Cora passive radiator (or similar product... Like the innovatek one) in conjunction with the active rad.
Where can I get these parts and if there any place I can read about it? I guess I'd have to get my own pump (Laing DDC-2??) and all the parts separately. The BFG 8800GTX already has the Danger Den block on it, though there are others out now like the eVGA Black Pearl and Asus, I think the BFG one is the best so that just leaves a CPU block. Anything else I should consider?
Arcygenical
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Jab-Tech is a great source for watercooling components... As is petra's tech shop.
I'd get the swiftech MCP655 pump over the Laing2.
The DD 8800GTX waterblock isn't bad at all.
For the CPU block, I'd go for a Dtek Fuzion.
I'd get the swiftech MCP655 pump over the Laing2.
The DD 8800GTX waterblock isn't bad at all.
For the CPU block, I'd go for a Dtek Fuzion.
I'm not sure about the Storm, but the Apogee GT is a newer block and the Fuzion still beats it by 3 or 4c.
What case do you have? Are you willing to cut it up? How much space is there/ what's the layout? (Pics would help.)
$600 can definitely cool everything very well, and quietly too. The only issue is how much of radiator you can squeeze in. You could use a radbox or some other external setup, but I think they're all ugly (not factory external units - just ghetto setups). If you don't mind it, that could make things simpler.
$600 can definitely cool everything very well, and quietly too. The only issue is how much of radiator you can squeeze in. You could use a radbox or some other external setup, but I think they're all ugly (not factory external units - just ghetto setups). If you don't mind it, that could make things simpler.
Erasmus354
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PA 120.3 radiator plus 3 fans run at 5V will provide near silent operation.
Buck_Rogers25
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Passive done well means a big BIG rad.
http://www.buckrogers25.com/passiverig.html
That's the aquacomputer 1800 rad, never needed a fan on it and temps are still very acceptable although hardware inside is a bit dated now, especially now it's deceased thanks to the movers frying the whole rig in transit, posting this on a fileserver.
About to start a new build at the moment and size down the chassis in all dimensions as well as add two low rpm AC slim profile fans in the space shown next to the rad tied to a relay and one of the outputs on a spare CrystalFontz 633 LCD for control, i'm expecting the SLI setup i'm building to require some low airflow in summer, should still be quieter than the PSU fan though. The 1800 has mounting holes for up to 15x120mm fans on it but thats a little overkill not too mention noisy even with very low voltage, if you want to use 120s i'd suggest three to five running at 5v on a rheobus or other controller.
Generally i do my rigs with DD's more reliable blocks (Maze series) and aquacomputer rads and res's, only constriction in the system is some step up converters on the res to take it to 1/2" but flow is still very good considering, will be getting a black one and drilling it out on this next build for 1/4" BSP (1/2" NPT/G) to increase flow to normal and add-in a PFO Flow meter to the CF633 for monitoring and pump fail safety. Might want to choose some other res if the constriction worries you or if your planning on an SLI setup with slightly more hosing, but honestly it's not a major concern so long as you have an eheim 1250 or better in there.
I wouldnt go with reservator, it's a half method unless you use a couple or more of them purely for an eye candy build, and no where near as good as a similar design rad which went out of production last year. I now cant remember its name, sure someone here will, came in 300mm 500mm 700mm and 1000mm variations with almost quadrupule the number of fins, really wanted one of those but got there too late.
One more thing...
http://www.buckrogers25.com/peltierrig.html
That had 3 pelts in it at one point, two 80watts and a 220watt, plus a thermochill 120.3 with three delta120 hi-flows on it running at 7v, was more than enough to keep things running between -8C and 10C. Just bear in mind that adding one 120 lo-flow to a passive setup adds 20db noise to the rig as opposed to a hi-flow AC fan adding 10-15 db, some are a bit less, we had a heat wave last year and all it took was pointing an AC fan in the direction of the machine from about 5 metres across the room, cooling me and the rad at the same time
.
Hope that helps with your considerations, passive is worth it but it takes a bit of thinking, off the shelf passive will certainly not get you anywhere close to a well thought out passive setup.
http://www.buckrogers25.com/passiverig.html
That's the aquacomputer 1800 rad, never needed a fan on it and temps are still very acceptable although hardware inside is a bit dated now, especially now it's deceased thanks to the movers frying the whole rig in transit, posting this on a fileserver.
About to start a new build at the moment and size down the chassis in all dimensions as well as add two low rpm AC slim profile fans in the space shown next to the rad tied to a relay and one of the outputs on a spare CrystalFontz 633 LCD for control, i'm expecting the SLI setup i'm building to require some low airflow in summer, should still be quieter than the PSU fan though. The 1800 has mounting holes for up to 15x120mm fans on it but thats a little overkill not too mention noisy even with very low voltage, if you want to use 120s i'd suggest three to five running at 5v on a rheobus or other controller.
Generally i do my rigs with DD's more reliable blocks (Maze series) and aquacomputer rads and res's, only constriction in the system is some step up converters on the res to take it to 1/2" but flow is still very good considering, will be getting a black one and drilling it out on this next build for 1/4" BSP (1/2" NPT/G) to increase flow to normal and add-in a PFO Flow meter to the CF633 for monitoring and pump fail safety. Might want to choose some other res if the constriction worries you or if your planning on an SLI setup with slightly more hosing, but honestly it's not a major concern so long as you have an eheim 1250 or better in there.
I wouldnt go with reservator, it's a half method unless you use a couple or more of them purely for an eye candy build, and no where near as good as a similar design rad which went out of production last year. I now cant remember its name, sure someone here will, came in 300mm 500mm 700mm and 1000mm variations with almost quadrupule the number of fins, really wanted one of those but got there too late.
One more thing...
http://www.buckrogers25.com/peltierrig.html
That had 3 pelts in it at one point, two 80watts and a 220watt, plus a thermochill 120.3 with three delta120 hi-flows on it running at 7v, was more than enough to keep things running between -8C and 10C. Just bear in mind that adding one 120 lo-flow to a passive setup adds 20db noise to the rig as opposed to a hi-flow AC fan adding 10-15 db, some are a bit less, we had a heat wave last year and all it took was pointing an AC fan in the direction of the machine from about 5 metres across the room, cooling me and the rad at the same time
.Hope that helps with your considerations, passive is worth it but it takes a bit of thinking, off the shelf passive will certainly not get you anywhere close to a well thought out passive setup.
Buck_Rogers25
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I would generally say no to that option, then i tend to fall clearly on the performance side of the line. Some of the koolance series are probably still one of the better options for silent systems that are easy for amateurs, but [H] forum members and amateur does'nt really seem to fit in the same sentence . Plus there overall performance level is limited from both an enviromental point of view depending on ambient temperatures and an overclocking point of view, but if silence wins over speed for you then may be worth a look. Plenty of other options other than koolance now days, and if you have your heart set on the reservator for that purpose and you dont mind the work then again, good option. But if your doing the work it costs very little extra to go that extra yard and do a really good job .
Some people have suggested chaining radiators here and if you have you heart set on a certain case then that may be the only way to do it, but in any scenario i'd advice CPU, GFX and chipest cooling with either a heavily exposed radiator through cutaway case panels if necessary, or externally mounted radiator, 1/2" tubing only and minimum of an eheim 1250 pump. Saying "oh a 5v 120mm fan wont make any noise" is a flat out lie i'm afraid, and ultimately, thats not passive. Hate to be picky, just trying to give some other options here.
. Plus there overall performance level is limited from both an enviromental point of view depending on ambient temperatures and an overclocking point of view, but if silence wins over speed for you then may be worth a look. Plenty of other options other than koolance now days, and if you have your heart set on the reservator for that purpose and you dont mind the work then again, good option. But if your doing the work it costs very little extra to go that extra yard and do a really good job .Some people have suggested chaining radiators here and if you have you heart set on a certain case then that may be the only way to do it, but in any scenario i'd advice CPU, GFX and chipest cooling with either a heavily exposed radiator through cutaway case panels if necessary, or externally mounted radiator, 1/2" tubing only and minimum of an eheim 1250 pump. Saying "oh a 5v 120mm fan wont make any noise" is a flat out lie i'm afraid, and ultimately, thats not passive
. Hate to be picky, just trying to give some other options here.Buck_Rogers25
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Would depend on flow, if your using quite a low flow pump and very little hose then the constriction of 3/8" will improve flow to close what you'd get with 1/2" and a good pump, but without changing the pump you'll only be looking at a minimal increase in performance, maybe a degree in relative cooling terms. But yes, given say the eheim which i favour, used on both 3/8" and 1/2", the flow would drop by around 10% but the volume going round the loop increases by 25%, looking at 1-3 degrees relative cooling and much better delta Ts for the loop itself, 4-6 degrees improvement, better on peltier setups with extreme heat. Been a long time since i did my first studies into it using lots of inline temp sensors at various stages, a 600w aquarium bar heater and a gems flow meter, but thats the general jist of it, the improvement in delta Ts of your cooling loop will almost always lead to improved relative cooling for the cpu etc, 3 degrees may not sound much but i've seen that go to 4.5 with evaporative cooling, i tend to work on averages and closed loops these days though.
I'm planning on moving to the Eheim 1260/1262 from the 1250 which will triple the flow from 20 l/min to 60 l/min on this rebuild, thats just their stock ratings though. The loop i use has gotten larger and larger and uses a lot more hose aswell as the constriction of the step up converters in the resevoir and the huge area of the radiator itself the flows only about 50-60% of the 1250s rated 20 l/min, the higher head and flow on the 1260/1262 and the removal of the step up converters on the resevoir will lead to around 85-90% of the pumps rated flow, around 50 l/min.
I'll be putting all my test gear back in this time and doing some new in line temp sensors with the DS1820 sensors used by the CF633 LCD i mentioned and the new gems PFO Flow Meter, might have to write something to get the gems results displayed well through the 633 but we'll see. Last time i did a test setup it was 20 2 wire temp sensors rigged to two temp monitors and a bank of DPDT switches to control the inputs, and one flow meter, was an absolute monster all that solid core wiring behind it but i managed to get it all behind two 5.35" bay panels, switches in one dials in the other, going for a much neater aproach this time overall.
I think i still have my flow and temp tests plus pics from around six years ago somewhere, so long as i did'nt lose them in a HD crash about four years ago now, i'll post a comparison against those when i'm done, might even try the loop with a 1250 vs the 1260/1262 to give some idea what difference flow can make so long as i have time. Cant guarantee that though this rebuild is going to have to be hurried as i'm losing a lot of money with my main rig out of commission as i use it for work.
I'm planning on moving to the Eheim 1260/1262 from the 1250 which will triple the flow from 20 l/min to 60 l/min on this rebuild, thats just their stock ratings though. The loop i use has gotten larger and larger and uses a lot more hose aswell as the constriction of the step up converters in the resevoir and the huge area of the radiator itself the flows only about 50-60% of the 1250s rated 20 l/min, the higher head and flow on the 1260/1262 and the removal of the step up converters on the resevoir will lead to around 85-90% of the pumps rated flow, around 50 l/min.
I'll be putting all my test gear back in this time and doing some new in line temp sensors with the DS1820 sensors used by the CF633 LCD i mentioned and the new gems PFO Flow Meter, might have to write something to get the gems results displayed well through the 633 but we'll see. Last time i did a test setup it was 20 2 wire temp sensors rigged to two temp monitors and a bank of DPDT switches to control the inputs, and one flow meter, was an absolute monster all that solid core wiring behind it but i managed to get it all behind two 5.35" bay panels, switches in one dials in the other, going for a much neater aproach this time overall.
I think i still have my flow and temp tests plus pics from around six years ago somewhere, so long as i did'nt lose them in a HD crash about four years ago now, i'll post a comparison against those when i'm done, might even try the loop with a 1250 vs the 1260/1262 to give some idea what difference flow can make so long as i have time. Cant guarantee that though this rebuild is going to have to be hurried as i'm losing a lot of money with my main rig out of commission as i use it for work.
Buck_Rogers25
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I decided to have a quick look at hte case you mentioned sgogeta, off the shelf cases are'nt my thing anymore they just dont do what i need, but have modded a lian-pc70 and two other full towers for water cooling.
There are several disadvantages with using the Antec p180 that i'd like to point out, the first and most obvious being the radiator mounting and problems with the various pullout cages inside the machine. The best way from looking at it outside is to cut away the front 120mm grills and the center 5.35" bay to mount a 120.2 radiator, bit this has some serious problems.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page1.html
If you take a look at the review you'll see to make that work you'll either have to jut the radiator way out front so that you dont cut into those nice pull out cages, in which case you wont get the door shut, or cut those nice cages to pieces to get it inside the case, in that scenario only one side of the radiator will be well exposed which is'nt ideal for passive. The other little problem i have with this case is the PSU mount position, at the bottom of the case, now i've only had a loop leak on my once in 9 years, when a bayres cracked, but i planned for leaks well ahead. Because of everythings position in the system the leak just trickled into the corner of the case avoiding all the components, in the p180 your going to lose the PSU to a leak and probably the whole system with it.
So for those two reasons i really dont advice the p180 as a watercooled case, it looks like a very good aircooled case with a lot of nice pull out racks and very clean cabling, but it's not cut out to be a watercooler, literally not cut out hehe.
I'll do some browsing for you and see if i can find something that wont be too hard to mod and if possible will allow external mounting.
There are several disadvantages with using the Antec p180 that i'd like to point out, the first and most obvious being the radiator mounting and problems with the various pullout cages inside the machine. The best way from looking at it outside is to cut away the front 120mm grills and the center 5.35" bay to mount a 120.2 radiator, bit this has some serious problems.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article249-page1.html
If you take a look at the review you'll see to make that work you'll either have to jut the radiator way out front so that you dont cut into those nice pull out cages, in which case you wont get the door shut, or cut those nice cages to pieces to get it inside the case, in that scenario only one side of the radiator will be well exposed which is'nt ideal for passive. The other little problem i have with this case is the PSU mount position, at the bottom of the case, now i've only had a loop leak on my once in 9 years, when a bayres cracked, but i planned for leaks well ahead. Because of everythings position in the system the leak just trickled into the corner of the case avoiding all the components, in the p180 your going to lose the PSU to a leak and probably the whole system with it.
So for those two reasons i really dont advice the p180 as a watercooled case, it looks like a very good aircooled case with a lot of nice pull out racks and very clean cabling, but it's not cut out to be a watercooler, literally not cut out hehe
.I'll do some browsing for you and see if i can find something that wont be too hard to mod and if possible will allow external mounting.
Buck_Rogers25
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Just had a look through the overclockers.co.uk case catalogue, afraid i havent got time to do more today, but i have found one very nice case.
Now this is by far one of the nicest cases i've seen in a long while, it's a bit glitzy and glammy for my taste but it has some serious potential for a good watercooled setup, the Thermaltake Armour Super Tower, comes in black and alluminium for an extra £20 and compared to the antec p180 at 85£ is only slightly more expensive at 93£ for the black version but has a lot of nice additions.
http://www.techniz.co.uk/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=211&page=1
As far as radiator mounting goes you'd have with three options, a left side external mount (might require weighting the case for balance), a top side external mount, or a front grill semi-external mount, might even be able to to do a right and left side external mount with the reservator, that would look pretty swish and is something i considered doing once upon a time. The case itself comes with some pretty decent air cooling which you can strip out, a nice pci clip setup, an intrusion detector on the right panel, BTX optional kit and a few other nice trimmings. Considering the price tag versus my personal favourite case manufacturer Lian-Li which are now close to £200 for their full towers, it's a serious contender, especially with all the nice additions and the space it provides.
Like i said it's a bit glitzy for my taste, i prefer more stealth than glitz, although i am planning on some glitz for my new build this time around, but after 9 years of building very functional zero glitz cases and the amount i'll be spending on hardware i feel it's time to do something new.
If i have some time i'll have a look through a few other sites, but i'd definetley consider this myself for the right type of build.
EDIT: I just noticed technokids sig, seems he has one of these, maybe he can provide a bit more testimonial to it's value as a good watercooler and case.
Now this is by far one of the nicest cases i've seen in a long while, it's a bit glitzy and glammy for my taste but it has some serious potential for a good watercooled setup, the Thermaltake Armour Super Tower, comes in black and alluminium for an extra £20 and compared to the antec p180 at 85£ is only slightly more expensive at 93£ for the black version but has a lot of nice additions.
http://www.techniz.co.uk/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=211&page=1
As far as radiator mounting goes you'd have with three options, a left side external mount (might require weighting the case for balance), a top side external mount, or a front grill semi-external mount, might even be able to to do a right and left side external mount with the reservator, that would look pretty swish and is something i considered doing once upon a time. The case itself comes with some pretty decent air cooling which you can strip out, a nice pci clip setup, an intrusion detector on the right panel, BTX optional kit and a few other nice trimmings. Considering the price tag versus my personal favourite case manufacturer Lian-Li which are now close to £200 for their full towers, it's a serious contender, especially with all the nice additions and the space it provides.
Like i said it's a bit glitzy for my taste, i prefer more stealth than glitz, although i am planning on some glitz for my new build this time around, but after 9 years of building very functional zero glitz cases and the amount i'll be spending on hardware i feel it's time to do something new.
If i have some time i'll have a look through a few other sites, but i'd definetley consider this myself for the right type of build.
EDIT: I just noticed technokids sig, seems he has one of these, maybe he can provide a bit more testimonial to it's value as a good watercooler and case.
That's a sweet passive rig, I'm now thinking maybe going completely passive is going to be a bit overkill. I mean as long as its below ambient, then it really won't be audible most of the time. Apparently Antec is making a new revision (P190) which is bigger (takes eATX) plus it has two 140mm fans on top, 120mm at the back and 200mm on the side for massive airflow and looks pretty nice imo... I'm tempted to add the radiator on the inside, at the top of that.
[URL="http://www.silentpcreview.com/article717-page1.html"]http://www.silentpcreview.com/article717-page1.html[/URL]
Buck, you mentioned peltiers, at those temps doesn't condensation form which could affect the circuitry on the motherboard? I was checking up on an interesting tech based off of CoolIT's Freezone, the Dell H2C system which was pretty cool because it was totally self contained (didn't have to refill things, though I don't think I'd be able to do that myself), but I envisioned my ideal water cooling system fitting in something like that and as above have 2x 140mm and 1x 120mm fan blowing air out of it.
http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx
Also, annaconda mentioned about heat on the 680i chipset, thinking like the Asus Striker or maybe Gigabyte's DQ6, usually there is a massive heatsink (covering the NB, SB, MOSFETs?), what type of waterblock would be suitable to cover those areas or would I need multiple?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/asus-striker-extreme_2.html
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=6&id=2183
Thanks for the great ideas, keep em coming
[URL="http://www.silentpcreview.com/article717-page1.html"]http://www.silentpcreview.com/article717-page1.html[/URL]
Buck, you mentioned peltiers, at those temps doesn't condensation form which could affect the circuitry on the motherboard? I was checking up on an interesting tech based off of CoolIT's Freezone, the Dell H2C system which was pretty cool because it was totally self contained (didn't have to refill things, though I don't think I'd be able to do that myself), but I envisioned my ideal water cooling system fitting in something like that and as above have 2x 140mm and 1x 120mm fan blowing air out of it.
http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.aspx
Also, annaconda mentioned about heat on the 680i chipset, thinking like the Asus Striker or maybe Gigabyte's DQ6, usually there is a massive heatsink (covering the NB, SB, MOSFETs?), what type of waterblock would be suitable to cover those areas or would I need multiple?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/asus-striker-extreme_2.html
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=6&id=2183
Thanks for the great ideas, keep em coming
hey buck sure is a sweet case. have you seen the armour lcs with built in LCS or the khandalflcs which is the same chassis but with built on external LCS. theres room for 6 HDD which is nice. cable managements great and so is the ventilation. i have myn on a fan controller and when u turn them all on the mobo instantly goes down a few degrees. its also worth looking into the 25cm fan side panel.
sure is a sweet case. have you seen the armour lcs with built in LCS or the khandalflcs which is the same chassis but with built on external LCS. theres room for 6 HDD which is nice. cable managements great and so is the ventilation. i have myn on a fan controller and when u turn them all on the mobo instantly goes down a few degrees. its also worth looking into the 25cm fan side panel.
topcat989
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ummm, wow. I believe this is the only time I have seen such expensive and stylish parts put together in such a ghetto fashion. Usually it's either all expense and style or all ghetto.
edit: and passive "done well" does not necessarily mean big rad. That rad you have is not made for passive, it's too restricive to passive airflow. Not to mention for passive use it is oriented in the worst possible way. If you were to lay it flat, about a foot off the floor (w/o obstructing the airflow of course) you would improve it's (passive) cooling capacity a great deal. As it's used you're wasting a large chunk of money for no practicle benifit.
Buck_Rogers25
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I just never got around to building an outer skin for the chassis. will be doing this time around . And your incorrect about the rad i'm afraid topcat, when i built this chassis i built it knowing it would need testing in various positions to get just right, the first two versions were a top mount and a bottom mount with the rad lying horizontally.
With an eheim 1250 in there the extra flow constriction with it mounted horizontally on top it puts a lot more pressure on the pump, literally, reducing its max head and therefore the flow SEVERELY. With the rad mounted on top of the case horizontally the pump did'nt even have enough power to pump through all that hosing let alone the rad itself, it actually stalled out and water got trapped half way up the loop as it was entering the radiator, nasty gurgling noise i dont ever want to hear again. With the rad across the bottom of the case horizontally although the pump was'nt too bad because it was pulling through it from a couple of inches above the rad itself but flow still was'nt great, it was then too obstructed aswell, i put my hand on it when i was dry running with a pond heater and nearly burnt myself it got that hot! Bad flow + Bad ventilation, not good.
I then tried two other vertical configurations, as it is now and turned 90 and 270 degrees on its side vertically from as it is now to test the barb locations and try and adjust the drop flow through the rad easing the strain on the pump. With both barbs level along the top and bottom edges the same problem occured, too much work for the pump pushing and pulling through the rad, the optimal was with the barbs as they are now, in top/out bottom so there is a drop through the rad with very little strain on the pump. During summer at its hottest its was slightly warm to the touch but it's never gotten as hot as it did running in the horizontal test.
Even with a larger pump the same characteristics would follow, obstruction, and optimal flow. So please, next time you say things like "no practical benefit" please make sure you've thought it over every factor first, no offense. Your right about passive done well not needing a big rad though, but thats only in true in some setups, i.e not mine or anyone else planning on an SLI setup and still wanting performance.
A 220 watt pelt puts out just under double that into the loop, 440, 80 again 160, x2 320 + 440 = 760, and thats for my old pelt setup, a 120.3 was able to handle that with three delta hi-flows, but in passive it's a little more tricky. I still have plenty of head room left on this rads capacity with that, but if you consider an SLI pelt setup i'd be looking at a 220, 2x172 (for todays more aggressive graphics cards) and an 80 watt pelt, thats 1288 watt which is still 300 watt under the rads rating, but add in a couple of ram coolers maybe a voltage regulator cooler from aqua computer and you make up those 300 watts pretty fast, suddenly you have to be active to compensate.
I dont intend to go back to pelt cooling on this rig i'm just using it as an example for wattage, but i think you get the idea, for passive to work well and still be in the performance watercooling bracket your rad shouldnt be doing more than 50-60% of its capacity, or you'll end up with a radiator that can burn you and a loop thats running so hot hot you'll start having problems with your overclocking. In todays SLI setups, running every block possible, you'd be around the 700-800 watt mark when overclocking, which is under 50% of this rads capacity, although that's just a rough, i've yet to check the wattages in detail for this new build yet.
Anyone aiming for passive and still wanting performance should be within this bracket, if silence is the only aim then it's not a concern, but as i said earlier if silence is the only concern, your better off with a koolance or something similar. Performance passive cooling just is'nt as easy as everyone seems to think, passive easy, performance passive, not so easy.
Now that i'm done with my little amatuer thermodynamics rant hehe...
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The p190, nice but again, PSU mounts along the bottom, dual aswell which would be an expensive loss if you did have two in there. Bottom mounted PSUs just are'nt ideal for watercooling from a safety point of view, but you seem to kind of have your heart set on that series if cases, so all i will say is if you do go with it, be very VERY careful, it's a risk i would'nt take personally.
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The Dell H2C system, this is a point of contention with me so dont expect a good response here. Now with lots of silent solutions like koolance they are still very customisable and easy to change bits here and there, not so with the dell, they make it very awkward to make changes later on. It's not too bad from one point of view, in some cases where you never intend to change a thing in your system and are'nt aiming for completely silent with a small headroom for limited overclocking for example. But that is a very limited number of people, the mounting on this makes it very difficult to setup, it's one of those "oooh this is going to be a pain" jobs the moment you look at it, and the limited performance puts me off straight away.
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Your point about peltiers, take a look at my old peltier setup again, black stuff around the socket ? Neoprene, the gooey looking stuff around it ? Di-electric grease, and on the underside is the same plus two coats of PCB Laquer, insulating against condensation of a sub-zero setup is essential and it's really not that hard, just takes some prep work. The vapochill and prometia even have little filament heaters of their own around the cpu pin socket to help stop condensation. I've seen a couple of cryo cooler setups before and all i can say is, one day, one day.
But the only way to DIY one is with an LN2 recompressor, traditional cryo coolers are to uneconomical and too uneco-friendly to be considered for home use, but an LN2 recompressor is'nt too bad in comparsion, although too bads a relative term, they still use a lot of power, and they cost a bleeding fortune! Just hope i can find one on a junkheap i can refurb someday. I did consider DIYing a standard compressor using the CalorGas range of coolants at one time, but there are problems with filling and testing in the UK, was'nt economical to do, be cheaper to buy a vapochill or similar and that does'nt interest me anymore.
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Board cooling, really only need concern yourself with watercooling the northbridge and that's only if you want that little extra bit of performance from it, south bridge you can get away with using a very large heatsink or a reasonable HSF, same for the the mosfets, although there is a slight risk envolved with not cooling them enough, come to that in a minute. Dangerden do a cooler for the 680i which mounts on quite a few boards, DD are a bit behind aquacomputer with their board cooling though, AC have some voltage regulator blocks for five mainboard manufacturers now, aswell as some ramblocks aswell and NB blocks. Not sure if they have a southbridge cooler but i wouldnt rule it out.
There are some problems with using aquacomputer though which you need to be aware of, as i mentioned before i needed step up converters for their resevoir, they use G1/8" threads on there connector mounts, the standard these days is G1/4"(BSP1/4"). So i needed some BSP1/8"to1/4" converters plus some BSP1/2" barbs wtih 1/4" threads for the hose mounts, same is true for all the AC products, as there all G1/8". It's the only concern i have with AC, there very high quality, and the only company that does solid silver blocks aswell, not cheap but oooh do i want some, so long as you have a decent pump there really not a problem flow wise.
I try not to comment on other watercooling manufacturers purely because i have'nt used anything other thean DD or AC in years now, but there are other solutions for board cooling out there, just be careful with the mosfet cooling you want to use, your pretty safe with the northbridge solutions, again just check they work with the board you end up choosing. I'm looking at the Abit IN9 32X-Max myself as for me i've never had an abit board go wrong and this one has some solid electronics on there, level of the quality of the components used on board is a touch higher than other companies.
Oh and final point about DD, i've seen some people saying things about DDs 8800 waterblock on these forums. All i can say to that is next time they should use the correct amount of coolant in their systems, distilled and not tap water, and make sure they are not using too many copper blocks with allu blocks. I made a similar mistake with a DD block, Maze4 GPU pre-acetal top version and i did'nt add enough water wetter, left pit holes in the alluminium top side of the block, could get my little finger into them it was that bad, not a mistake i'll make again, had to replace the block. In short dont blame a manufacturer for damage you cause through user error, saddens me to see DD being accused of not making blocks well enough just because people dont RTFM. Anyone remember the Maze2 Tested To Destruction videos ? 2000psi before it went pop, nuff said i think.
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Armour LCS, That's a very nice off the shelf watercooler Tekno now ive read some reviews and test temps! Case was nice enough without seeing all the LCS gear they've done aswell, really should have read the manufacturer blurb before i recomended the standard Armour, dont think i was far off the mark recomending it though, definetley one of the nicest all in one solutions i've seen in quite a while, for air or water. And the Kandalf might actually work passive quite well with a few modifictions to the front, remove the door, remount it and drill a couple of holes, change the pump and you'd pretty much be done, would be good for CPU,GFX,Chipest in a non-SLI setup, might even handle SLI too so long as your not after performance cooling.
Couple of quibbles about the blocks, the pump, but overall it's a very nice solution for first time watercoolers and people looking for a reasonably priced and easy solution all in one. Quick fit connectors are a concern to me, just not as leak proof as good old jubilee clips with some PTFE and silicon but could easily put some other connectors on those blocks, and again the blocks themselves are'nt quite up to DDs standards for cooling performance and leak proofing, but pretty damn close i'd say. Pump...never really like those puttery 12vers, not enough flow for me, but then again it's a very low head loop with a 120.2 rad, doesnt need the head or flow i generally do, and i do have a loving for Eheims and bleeding edge performance loops as you might have guessed.
I'd say thermaltake are on to a winner with that one personally, not one for commenting on US pricing, maybe you can point sgogeta to some good US retailers Tekno. That's a very good solution, especially as an active solution, think i prefer the Armour to the Kandalf though, radiator on a door...un-nerves me a little hehe.
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Cant remember the last time i posted a forum post this long hehe.
. And your incorrect about the rad i'm afraid topcat, when i built this chassis i built it knowing it would need testing in various positions to get just right, the first two versions were a top mount and a bottom mount with the rad lying horizontally. With an eheim 1250 in there the extra flow constriction with it mounted horizontally on top it puts a lot more pressure on the pump, literally, reducing its max head and therefore the flow SEVERELY. With the rad mounted on top of the case horizontally the pump did'nt even have enough power to pump through all that hosing let alone the rad itself, it actually stalled out and water got trapped half way up the loop as it was entering the radiator, nasty gurgling noise i dont ever want to hear again
. With the rad across the bottom of the case horizontally although the pump was'nt too bad because it was pulling through it from a couple of inches above the rad itself but flow still was'nt great, it was then too obstructed aswell, i put my hand on it when i was dry running with a pond heater and nearly burnt myself it got that hot! Bad flow + Bad ventilation, not good.I then tried two other vertical configurations, as it is now and turned 90 and 270 degrees on its side vertically from as it is now to test the barb locations and try and adjust the drop flow through the rad easing the strain on the pump. With both barbs level along the top and bottom edges the same problem occured, too much work for the pump pushing and pulling through the rad, the optimal was with the barbs as they are now, in top/out bottom so there is a drop through the rad with very little strain on the pump. During summer at its hottest its was slightly warm to the touch but it's never gotten as hot as it did running in the horizontal test.
Even with a larger pump the same characteristics would follow, obstruction, and optimal flow. So please, next time you say things like "no practical benefit" please make sure you've thought it over every factor first, no offense
. Your right about passive done well not needing a big rad though, but thats only in true in some setups, i.e not mine or anyone else planning on an SLI setup and still wanting performance. A 220 watt pelt puts out just under double that into the loop, 440, 80 again 160, x2 320 + 440 = 760, and thats for my old pelt setup, a 120.3 was able to handle that with three delta hi-flows, but in passive it's a little more tricky. I still have plenty of head room left on this rads capacity with that, but if you consider an SLI pelt setup i'd be looking at a 220, 2x172 (for todays more aggressive graphics cards) and an 80 watt pelt, thats 1288 watt which is still 300 watt under the rads rating, but add in a couple of ram coolers maybe a voltage regulator cooler from aqua computer and you make up those 300 watts pretty fast, suddenly you have to be active to compensate.
I dont intend to go back to pelt cooling on this rig i'm just using it as an example for wattage, but i think you get the idea, for passive to work well and still be in the performance watercooling bracket your rad shouldnt be doing more than 50-60% of its capacity, or you'll end up with a radiator that can burn you and a loop thats running so hot hot you'll start having problems with your overclocking. In todays SLI setups, running every block possible, you'd be around the 700-800 watt mark when overclocking, which is under 50% of this rads capacity, although that's just a rough, i've yet to check the wattages in detail for this new build yet.
Anyone aiming for passive and still wanting performance should be within this bracket, if silence is the only aim then it's not a concern, but as i said earlier if silence is the only concern, your better off with a koolance or something similar. Performance passive cooling just is'nt as easy as everyone seems to think, passive easy, performance passive, not so easy
.Now that i'm done with my little amatuer thermodynamics rant hehe
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The p190, nice but again, PSU mounts along the bottom, dual aswell which would be an expensive loss if you did have two in there. Bottom mounted PSUs just are'nt ideal for watercooling from a safety point of view, but you seem to kind of have your heart set on that series if cases, so all i will say is if you do go with it, be very VERY careful, it's a risk i would'nt take personally.
---
The Dell H2C system, this is a point of contention with me so dont expect a good response here. Now with lots of silent solutions like koolance they are still very customisable and easy to change bits here and there, not so with the dell, they make it very awkward to make changes later on. It's not too bad from one point of view, in some cases where you never intend to change a thing in your system and are'nt aiming for completely silent with a small headroom for limited overclocking for example. But that is a very limited number of people, the mounting on this makes it very difficult to setup, it's one of those "oooh this is going to be a pain" jobs the moment you look at it, and the limited performance puts me off straight away.
---
Your point about peltiers, take a look at my old peltier setup again, black stuff around the socket ? Neoprene, the gooey looking stuff around it ? Di-electric grease, and on the underside is the same plus two coats of PCB Laquer, insulating against condensation of a sub-zero setup is essential and it's really not that hard, just takes some prep work. The vapochill and prometia even have little filament heaters of their own around the cpu pin socket to help stop condensation. I've seen a couple of cryo cooler setups before and all i can say is, one day, one day
. But the only way to DIY one is with an LN2 recompressor, traditional cryo coolers are to uneconomical and too uneco-friendly to be considered for home use, but an LN2 recompressor is'nt too bad in comparsion, although too bads a relative term, they still use a lot of power, and they cost a bleeding fortune! Just hope i can find one on a junkheap i can refurb someday. I did consider DIYing a standard compressor using the CalorGas range of coolants at one time, but there are problems with filling and testing in the UK, was'nt economical to do, be cheaper to buy a vapochill or similar and that does'nt interest me anymore.
---
Board cooling, really only need concern yourself with watercooling the northbridge and that's only if you want that little extra bit of performance from it, south bridge you can get away with using a very large heatsink or a reasonable HSF, same for the the mosfets, although there is a slight risk envolved with not cooling them enough, come to that in a minute. Dangerden do a cooler for the 680i which mounts on quite a few boards, DD are a bit behind aquacomputer with their board cooling though, AC have some voltage regulator blocks for five mainboard manufacturers now, aswell as some ramblocks aswell and NB blocks. Not sure if they have a southbridge cooler but i wouldnt rule it out.
There are some problems with using aquacomputer though which you need to be aware of, as i mentioned before i needed step up converters for their resevoir, they use G1/8" threads on there connector mounts, the standard these days is G1/4"(BSP1/4"). So i needed some BSP1/8"to1/4" converters plus some BSP1/2" barbs wtih 1/4" threads for the hose mounts, same is true for all the AC products, as there all G1/8". It's the only concern i have with AC, there very high quality, and the only company that does solid silver blocks aswell, not cheap but oooh do i want some, so long as you have a decent pump there really not a problem flow wise.
I try not to comment on other watercooling manufacturers purely because i have'nt used anything other thean DD or AC in years now, but there are other solutions for board cooling out there, just be careful with the mosfet cooling you want to use, your pretty safe with the northbridge solutions, again just check they work with the board you end up choosing. I'm looking at the Abit IN9 32X-Max myself as for me i've never had an abit board go wrong and this one has some solid electronics on there, level of the quality of the components used on board is a touch higher than other companies.
Oh and final point about DD, i've seen some people saying things about DDs 8800 waterblock on these forums. All i can say to that is next time they should use the correct amount of coolant in their systems, distilled and not tap water, and make sure they are not using too many copper blocks with allu blocks. I made a similar mistake with a DD block, Maze4 GPU pre-acetal top version and i did'nt add enough water wetter, left pit holes in the alluminium top side of the block, could get my little finger into them it was that bad, not a mistake i'll make again, had to replace the block. In short dont blame a manufacturer for damage you cause through user error, saddens me to see DD being accused of not making blocks well enough just because people dont RTFM. Anyone remember the Maze2 Tested To Destruction videos ? 2000psi before it went pop, nuff said i think.
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Armour LCS, That's a very nice off the shelf watercooler Tekno now ive read some reviews and test temps! Case was nice enough without seeing all the LCS gear they've done aswell, really should have read the manufacturer blurb before i recomended the standard Armour, dont think i was far off the mark recomending it though, definetley one of the nicest all in one solutions i've seen in quite a while, for air or water. And the Kandalf might actually work passive quite well with a few modifictions to the front, remove the door, remount it and drill a couple of holes, change the pump and you'd pretty much be done, would be good for CPU,GFX,Chipest in a non-SLI setup, might even handle SLI too so long as your not after performance cooling.
Couple of quibbles about the blocks, the pump, but overall it's a very nice solution for first time watercoolers and people looking for a reasonably priced and easy solution all in one. Quick fit connectors are a concern to me, just not as leak proof as good old jubilee clips with some PTFE and silicon but could easily put some other connectors on those blocks, and again the blocks themselves are'nt quite up to DDs standards for cooling performance and leak proofing, but pretty damn close i'd say. Pump...never really like those puttery 12vers, not enough flow for me, but then again it's a very low head loop with a 120.2 rad, doesnt need the head or flow i generally do, and i do have a loving for Eheims and bleeding edge performance loops as you might have guessed
. I'd say thermaltake are on to a winner with that one personally, not one for commenting on US pricing, maybe you can point sgogeta to some good US retailers Tekno. That's a very good solution, especially as an active solution, think i prefer the Armour to the Kandalf though, radiator on a door...un-nerves me a little hehe
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Cant remember the last time i posted a forum post this long hehe
.Buck_Rogers25
n00b
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2003
- Messages
- 21
Once you watercool you just can never go back hehe , can thank the [H] for getting me hooked. First cooling system i built was using an evaporative cooling tower and DDs blocks from the maze 2 era, all copper topped, still have them somewhere. 7 years ago now i think, sure any [H] users from around that time will remember the infamous nuclear bong coolers .
http://www.overclockers.com/articles389/
In case you've never seen them before, or though mine was distinctly more ghetto than that hehe. Two large bins turned on top of each other for the chamber with a showerhead in the top, 4 and 1/2 to 5 foot high, and a small bin for the res, my cat used to go to sleep on top of it during the summer, she must've liked the breeze LOL . I'll have to scan some pics and put them up at some point, got a good one of the cat on top, it was a pretty scary project for a first time watercooling project to be honest, but like i say it got me hooked, and it taught me a lot about testing watercooled setups, a lot of the methods i employed for testing then i still use today, some of the equipment too.
, can thank the [H] for getting me hooked. First cooling system i built was using an evaporative cooling tower and DDs blocks from the maze 2 era, all copper topped, still have them somewhere. 7 years ago now i think, sure any [H] users from around that time will remember the infamous nuclear bong coolers .http://www.overclockers.com/articles389/
In case you've never seen them before, or though mine was distinctly more ghetto than that hehe
. Two large bins turned on top of each other for the chamber with a showerhead in the top, 4 and 1/2 to 5 foot high, and a small bin for the res, my cat used to go to sleep on top of it during the summer, she must've liked the breeze LOL . I'll have to scan some pics and put them up at some point, got a good one of the cat on top, it was a pretty scary project for a first time watercooling project to be honest, but like i say it got me hooked, and it taught me a lot about testing watercooled setups, a lot of the methods i employed for testing then i still use today, some of the equipment too.Drudenhaus
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 3,126
The Apogee was a step backwards in performance though. Unless something new has come out (I haven't checked in quite some time), the Storm is probably still on top of the performance charts.