Sick of Carebear MMOs

S

slugl1fe

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
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Is anyone sick of playing MMOs that are either entirely PvE or have PvP that is devoid of consequences? I know Darkfall is coming out but my guess is that game is going to be another huge disappointment.

RvR in games like WAR create a communal penalty system for failure in PvP that just bores the crap out of me. I want to go into combat knowing that I can and will lose money/items if I fail. I dont want the developer to hold my hand to make sure that I have some socialist lowest-common-denominator level of fun. I want a game that gives the players the ability to steal (really, not some bullshit system where you can only steal certain items in certain places blah blah blah), PK, and generally make real CHOICES that have real CONSEQUENCES for my character. Do I give a flying fuck if my "capture point" has been taken over by the enemy realm and thus I will have some existential penalty placed on my character? Do I give a crap if I get killed if I can just respawn with all my shit and run right back into battle? Is this fucking Counterstrike? And and least in Counterstrike you earn cash to buy better weapons/armor that other players can loot off your corpse.

God, I havent REALLY liked an MMO since UO pre-T2A and I know I'm not alone.

And yes, I have tried Eve-Online, but the flying around in space endlessly is a little boring too.
 
haha.. i should probably quit my moaning and make the game I want to play. like Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see in the world".

Well... I want to be able to steal.. so..
 
Theme Park carebear style MMO's sadly are the future and will dominate this genre for generations. I'm with you on your post.
 
Disciple Lan said:
Is anyone sick of playing MMOs that are either entirely PvE or have PvP that is devoid of consequences? I know Darkfall is coming out but my guess is that game is going to be another huge disappointment.

RvR in games like WAR create a communal penalty system for failure in PvP that just bores the crap out of me. I want to go into combat knowing that I can and will lose money/items if I fail. I dont want the developer to hold my hand to make sure that I have some socialist lowest-common-denominator level of fun. I want a game that gives the players the ability to steal (really, not some bullshit system where you can only steal certain items in certain places blah blah blah), PK, and generally make real CHOICES that have real CONSEQUENCES for my character. Do I give a flying fuck if my "capture point" has been taken over by the enemy realm and thus I will have some existential penalty placed on my character? Do I give a crap if I get killed if I can just respawn with all my shit and run right back into battle? Is this fucking Counterstrike? And and least in Counterstrike you earn cash to buy better weapons/armor that other players can loot off your corpse.

God, I havent REALLY liked an MMO since UO pre-T2A and I know I'm not alone.

And yes, I have tried Eve-Online, but the flying around in space endlessly is a little boring too.
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Did you ever consider that a lot of the "old school" hardcore things that were in mmos were removed for a reason?
 
Yes; I do realize that these features were taken out primarily because they create a steep learning curve which prevents certain players from continuing their subscriptions. But I believe, given Eve's success, that there is an untapped market out there. The current carebear mmo system is starting to fail as each successive "WoW-killer" is created, used, negatively reviewed, and withdrawn (see Vanguard).
 
Closest thing is EVE...some serious penalties in that game and you can do some pretty unfair things to other people as well, so it goes both ways. It can be boring for the first few months if you want to play it all the time. If you can play casually for a while until you can train long enough to pilot a lower class PvP ship with some sort of competence then it's a lot more fun/engaging. That's my opinion. It also helps to be in a large active corp.
 
Did you ever consider that a lot of the "old school" hardcore things that were in mmos were removed for a reason?
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Its called instant gratification, easy mode, and entitlement of today's generation. It all goes hand in hand with today's society. Epics, job, car and phat lewtz are all well deserved with no risk involved.
 
I was interested in Darkfall until I found out it was PvP. I'm looking for a more challenging MMO that isn't a solofest ala WOW. Basically what VG was supposed to be before sony got their hands on it.

Mortal Online is PVP also right?
 
kadozer said:
Its called instant gratification, easy mode, and entitlement of today's generation. It all goes hand in hand with today's society. Epics, job, car and phat lewtz are all well deserved with no risk involved.
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100% agree.
 
I miss old EQ PvP. You would die, and the opponent could loot all the cash you were carrying off your corpse, as well as a single item. There was a restriction, couldn't loot an item that was NO DROP, and you couldn't take weapons. You also had to run back to your corpse. Naked. This was before they started making every single trash gear drop in the game NO DROP, so you could actually get some decent gear off people, and bad twinks didn't stay twinks for long.
 
Does anyone remember UO PvP (pre-T2A)? You died and all the stuff on your corpse was lootable. The PvP looting system created a more meaningful (imo) crafting system because there was an ongoing demand for high quality weapons/armor. You stored several sets of weapons and armor in order to be able to participate in PvP (so if you died, you could replenish your character). I remember having bags of proportioned reagents in my bank so that I could quickly re-engage in using magic for pvp after I died. For melee chars I would keep a bag of 50 warhammers and thousands of bandages so that I could keep going back. It created a resource management side of gameplay that just doesnt exist today.
 
bigdogchris said:
I was interested in Darkfall until I found out it was PvP. I'm looking for a more challenging MMO that isn't a solofest ala WOW. Basically what VG was supposed to be before sony got their hands on it.

Mortal Online is PVP also right?
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Yes, Mortal Online is PVP.
 
kadozer said:
Its called instant gratification, easy mode, and entitlement of today's generation. It all goes hand in hand with today's society. Epics, job, car and phat lewtz are all well deserved with no risk involved.
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wow, you're sad.
 
The type of game you want has become a niche or maybe just nostalgia goggles. Most developers want to make the game enjoyable for the majority of the people playing, in result higher revenue gains. Why cater to a niche market only while millions could be made elsewhere?

That's how it is now and I can't see it changing anytime soon.
 
tys90 said:
Closest thing was EVE
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fixt. EVE is moving further away from being a combat-oriented game every patch. Their goal is to make combat much less likely to ever occur and to make non-consensual combat almost impossible to ever occur.

I think the problem is that the OP is missing something more fundamental. MMORPG's are made for effeminate fruits that don't know about gaming and just want a chat room with a fancy GUI. You are really not going to find a combat oriented MMO except for planetside and that game is so many years past its prime.
 
TBH, most korean made games are horrible and balance is always a huge issue with them. Also, their websites are always cookie cutter, graphics engine are all used by every single korean game maker it seems. That, or all the character models etc look the same or are a copy of some japanese style anime.
 
The problem with this diatribe is that your idea of serious consequence will rarely align with the idea of serious consequence of someone else.

You want to be able to steal, PK, rape, pillage and plunder and have real consequences in the game. How about, you can do all those things, but every time you do, your infamy rating (or something similar) goes up and the higher that rating, the more likely that someone else, be it NPC or player, will hunt you down and eliminate you. Eventually, every NPC organization in the game will be hunting you down, even your own "faction" because of your behavior. If "local law enforcement" isn't enough to stop you, eventually organized "military action" will be taken to hunt you down. You alone against the entire military might of a major world power.

Elimination means your account is closed. If you want to keep playing you will have to buy another copy of the game, make a new character, etc. If you get eliminated a second time, the third account you purchase will cost you 2x as much (instead of $15 per month, you now have to pay $30 per month to play), and so on. If you continue to misbehave (specifically, behave in a manner contrary to widely accepted moral standards that you may or may not agree with), you can be sued by the other players for interfering with their enjoyment of the game (as in, real world law suit, not some useless in-game judgement).

You don't want serious consequences. You want to pretend there are consequences in order to make yourself feel tough because you harass lower level players and "win". Just an opinion, of course. You are entitled to want such a game to exist. I wouldn't play it, but if you wanted to, more power to you.
 
Spetsdod said:
The problem with this diatribe is that your idea of serious consequence will rarely align with the idea of serious consequence of someone else.

You want to be able to steal, PK, rape, pillage and plunder and have real consequences in the game. How about, you can do all those things, but every time you do, your infamy rating (or something similar) goes up and the higher that rating, the more likely that someone else, be it NPC or player, will hunt you down and eliminate you. Eventually, every NPC organization in the game will be hunting you down, even your own "faction" because of your behavior. If "local law enforcement" isn't enough to stop you, eventually organized "military action" will be taken to hunt you down. You alone against the entire military might of a major world power.

Elimination means your account is closed. If you want to keep playing you will have to buy another copy of the game, make a new character, etc. If you get eliminated a second time, the third account you purchase will cost you 2x as much (instead of $15 per month, you now have to pay $30 per month to play), and so on. If you continue to misbehave (specifically, behave in a manner contrary to widely accepted moral standards that you may or may not agree with), you can be sued by the other players for interfering with their enjoyment of the game (as in, real world law suit, not some useless in-game judgement).

You don't want serious consequences. You want to pretend there are consequences in order to make yourself feel tough because you harass lower level players and "win". Just an opinion, of course. You are entitled to want such a game to exist. I wouldn't play it, but if you wanted to, more power to you.
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I totally agree with this. No matter how badass you think you are, someone's always better, especially when that someone's a collective of those that you've been picking on.
 
Spetsdod said:
The problem with this diatribe is that your idea of serious consequence will rarely align with the idea of serious consequence of someone else.

You want to be able to steal, PK, rape, pillage and plunder and have real consequences in the game. How about, you can do all those things, but every time you do, your infamy rating (or something similar) goes up and the higher that rating, the more likely that someone else, be it NPC or player, will hunt you down and eliminate you. Eventually, every NPC organization in the game will be hunting you down, even your own "faction" because of your behavior. If "local law enforcement" isn't enough to stop you, eventually organized "military action" will be taken to hunt you down. You alone against the entire military might of a major world power.

Elimination means your account is closed. If you want to keep playing you will have to buy another copy of the game, make a new character, etc. If you get eliminated a second time, the third account you purchase will cost you 2x as much (instead of $15 per month, you now have to pay $30 per month to play), and so on. If you continue to misbehave (specifically, behave in a manner contrary to widely accepted moral standards that you may or may not agree with), you can be sued by the other players for interfering with their enjoyment of the game (as in, real world law suit, not some useless in-game judgement).

You don't want serious consequences. You want to pretend there are consequences in order to make yourself feel tough because you harass lower level players and "win". Just an opinion, of course. You are entitled to want such a game to exist. I wouldn't play it, but if you wanted to, more power to you.
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Wow. You're retarded.

Maybe we should just take all aspects of every argument and blow them totally out of proportion! And thank you for making a grand inference about my character and need to 'feel tough' based on my desire for a more visceral game experience.

you = fail.
 
Disciple Lan said:
Wow. You're retarded.

Maybe we should just take all aspects of every argument and blow them totally out of proportion! And thank you for making a grand inference about my character and need to 'feel tough' based on my desire for a more visceral game experience.

you = fail.
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You should ignore his last paragraph, which may not be in-line with your true character, and read his other paragraphs, which are all solid arguments of the experience that would evolve from the types of games that you want.
 
Care Bears, Stare! Care Bear Cousins. Call!

carebearstare.jpg
 
Cyrilix said:
You should ignore his last paragraph, which may not be in-line with your true character, and read his other paragraphs, which are all solid arguments of the experience that would evolve from the types of games that you want.
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You mean the lines where he talks about the consequences that I supported in my OP? Yeah I agree- if you rape, plunder and pillage, there should be consequences more closely in line with the "real world" (bounties, murderer status, prison time if you're caught by a legitimate governing body etc). His use of disproportionate and outrageous examples of 'consequences' proves nothing and only makes him look stupid. In fact, WoW is an example of a game that eliminates more consequences than most. And while I understand that all games eliminate some consequences in order to make them fun (respawning etc), what I am asking for is a game that more closely models consequences in "real life", or gives players the ability to define the rules of their society without having the devs do it. UO was brilliant because while PKing was allowed, there were most certainly consequences (character flagged as PK, not allowed in most cities without insta-death). There were rules but they more convincing because they were more in-line with those of the chaotic and barbaric Middle Ages that all fantasy imitates (albeit with magic, creatures etc). A developed settlement/city would certainly have a government that could enforce the rule of law, whereas the wilderness would be a dangerous and lawless area in which caution had to be exercised. And if you were a famous PK, people COULD band together to take you down, just as they might in real life. That was the beauty of it.

Yes, there are obviously many people who like carebear MMOS and they dont have to play this type of game. BUT, there are people who would like to play an MMO that doesn't hold your hand and buy you 'wowwy pops' every time the semi-evil looking troll with the cartooney axe runs toward you.
 
Disciple Lan said:
You mean the lines where he talks about the consequences that I supported in my OP? Yeah I agree- if you rape, plunder and pillage, there should be consequences more closely in line with the "real world" (bounties, murderer status, prison time if you're caught but a legitimate governing body etc). His use of disproportionate and outrageous examples of 'consequences' proves nothing and only makes him look stupid. In fact, WoW is an example of a game that eliminates more consequences than most. And while I understand that all games eliminate some consequences in order to make them fun (respawning etc), what I am asking for is a game that more closely models consequences in "real life", or gives players the ability to define the rules of their society without having the devs do it. UO was brilliant because while PKing was allowed, there were most certainly consequences (character flagged as PK, not allowed in most cities without insta-death). There were rules but they more convincing because they were more in-line with those of the chaotic and barbaric Middle Ages that all fantasy imitates (albiet with magic, creatures etc). A developed settlement/city would certainly have a government that could enforce the rule of law, whereas the wilderness would be a dangerous and lawless area in which caution had to be exercised. And if you were a famous PK, people COULD band together to take you down, just as they might in real life. That was the beauty of it.

Yes, there are obviously many people who like carebear MMOS and they dont have to play this type of game. BUT, there are people who would like to play an MMO that doesn't hold your hand and buy you 'wowwy pops' every time the semi-evil looking troll with the cartooney axe runs toward you.
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Fair enough. It seems like both you and I understand what he was trying to say. I didn't think you actually wanted it as real as that; I thought you wanted it more real, but to your benefit (ie., always being able to pick on the little guys and griefing without consequence). Nevertheless, griefing is a real problem which I think the so-called "carebear" MMOs try to solve.
 
Disciple Lan said:
You mean the lines where he talks about the consequences that I supported in my OP? Yeah I agree- if you rape, plunder and pillage, there should be consequences more closely in line with the "real world" (jail, bounties, murderer status, etc). His use of disproportionate and outrageous examples of 'consequences' proves nothing and only makes him look stupid.
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So "consequences" for you means what? The point of the comparison is that you talk about consequences but what you really mean are inconveniences. In the "real world", if you are convicted of murdering someone, you are sentenced to jail for the rest of your life, or are executed. That's pretty serious. So, all I suggested was that in order to meet your requirement of "real world"-like consequences, you make them severe and serious.

Disproportionate is a matter of perspective. If you are caught in an act of violence or criminal mischief and you get shot dead, you're dead. That's pretty much it. There is no respawn, there is no res coming, there is no second chance. I'm not sure where the disproportionate part of that comes in.

Also, apparently I'm stupid because I wasn't able to pick out how far along the "no consequences for actions to death for actions" chain the OP wants his "make real CHOICES that have real CONSEQUENCES for my character" game to be. Sorry. I assumed that when you said real consequences, you really meant real, not "only kind of real but still fun".

But of course, your response will be something along the lines of "it's only a game". So I return to my earlier point. You want inconveniences, not consequences. "Oh darn. I got killed because I was PKing low level players. Now I have to spend another week earning enough currency to buy more gear so I can do it again." At what point does the consequence of being a criminally minded player become a real consequence instead of just being a slight inconvenience while you re-arm and re-gear to continue the behavior?

Disciple Lan said:
In fact, WoW is an example of a game that eliminates more consequences than most. And while I understand that all games eliminate some consequences in order to make them fun (respawning etc), what I am asking for is a game that more closely models consequences in "real life", not a game that throws my character into the proverbial "pit" for PKing another character and taking his/her gear (or the opposite, WoW).
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I'm not sure where this comes from. I didn't mention WoW at all. I didn't even allude to any particular game. I assume (again probably a bad idea because I'm "stupid") that you don't like the way that WoW handles consequences for actions. Oddly enough, I agree with you. I think that the way WoW handles consequences is very much a hand holding experience.

Players on PvP servers are free to spawn camp, harass other players, and kill players that have absolutely no ability or chance to defend themselves, then spit on their bodies and sit on their heads (because in "real life" tea-bagging is something all the tough guys do). All of this, and there is absolutely no consequence for it. Blizzard didn't deliver the game they promised, the game they even printed in the manual. The game manual states that repeated dishonorable actions (like killing lower level players) would eventually make you hated, even with your own faction.

So clearly, WoW is not the game for you and will not provide the serious consequences you are looking for. Duly noted.

Disciple Lan said:
Yes, there are obviously many people who like carebear MMOS and they dont have to play this type of game. BUT, there are people who would like to play an MMO that doesn't hold your hand and buy you 'wowwy pops' every time the bad man with the cartooney axe runs toward you.
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Thank you for illustrating my point so clearly. Let me restate my original point.

Spetsdod said:
your idea of serious consequence will rarely align with the idea of serious consequence of someone else
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Apparently my idea of serious consequences is significantly different than yours. Here we are with just two people involved in the details of designing our new non-carebear MMO and we can't agree on what is "serious".

Instead of pointless back and forth conversation (because try as either you or I might, neither of us is likely to prove that the opinion of the other is wrong <the beauty of opinions is that they aren't right or wrong, they just are>) maybe you could specifically discuss the key elements of the game you want to see and let others contribute their opinions on how that aligns with their ideas. I made some suggestions about what I felt would be serious consequences for in game actions, and apparently you disagreed.
 
I agree that there should be more "risk" in the "risk vs. reward" of MMOs, but usually people who start these discussions are only really talking about either full player looting (in PvP) or XP loss (in PvE). I don't do competitive PvP (as opposed to what I'd call role-play PvP) so I don't really care about looting. Full player looting is often brought up as if it's something that can single-handedly make a crappy MMO great. Seems to me it would just make people less likely to carry decent gear in the first place so there'll be less worth looting.

As for PvE, I don't like XP loss as a death penalty, partly because it makes little sense (you don't get less experienced just because you lost an encounter) and partly because it's more irritating than painful. I've seen people defend it, and then go on to boast how quickly they can work it off, in the space of a single forum post. Why have it at all if it's trivial to work off? As one of Vanguards devs once said, it makes you feel like you're going backwards rather than suffering a painful defeat. My point is there are alternatives to XP loss as a death penalty, but if you try and argue that on some MMO forums you'll just get old EQ purists missing the point entirely and claiming you want a carebear game. How about losing your gear when you die? That wouldn't be carebear, but it would make more sense than having to grind so much XP all over again.

I secretly like the idea of permadeath in MMOs, but I'm too weak-willed to actually play under that philosophy. Plus as the survivor titles in Guild Wars prove, fearing death too much just makes people annoying to play with because they'll bail out of any encounter that looks even vaguely threatening. So there's a limit to how much risk is actually a good thing.
 
Devnull said:
fixt. EVE is moving further away from being a combat-oriented game every patch. Their goal is to make combat much less likely to ever occur and to make non-consensual combat almost impossible to ever occur.

I think the problem is that the OP is missing something more fundamental. MMORPG's are made for effeminate fruits that don't know about gaming and just want a chat room with a fancy GUI. You are really not going to find a combat oriented MMO except for planetside and that game is so many years past its prime.
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I don't know what EVE you are playing, it's still just as harsh as ever and that's fine by me. :D I could agree that empire is getting more cuddly, but 0.0 is as cut throat as ever.
 
Disciple Lan said:
Is anyone sick of playing MMOs that are either entirely PvE or have PvP that is devoid of consequences? I know Darkfall is coming out but my guess is that game is going to be another huge disappointment.

RvR in games like WAR create a communal penalty system for failure in PvP that just bores the crap out of me. I want to go into combat knowing that I can and will lose money/items if I fail. I dont want the developer to hold my hand to make sure that I have some socialist lowest-common-denominator level of fun. I want a game that gives the players the ability to steal (really, not some bullshit system where you can only steal certain items in certain places blah blah blah), PK, and generally make real CHOICES that have real CONSEQUENCES for my character. Do I give a flying fuck if my "capture point" has been taken over by the enemy realm and thus I will have some existential penalty placed on my character? Do I give a crap if I get killed if I can just respawn with all my shit and run right back into battle? Is this fucking Counterstrike? And and least in Counterstrike you earn cash to buy better weapons/armor that other players can loot off your corpse.

God, I havent REALLY liked an MMO since UO pre-T2A and I know I'm not alone.

And yes, I have tried Eve-Online, but the flying around in space endlessly is a little boring too.
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You played it wrong or got in with the wrong crowd. :D
 
Your original point was that everyone has different levels of consequence, which is a valid point, but your subsequent post regarding a) extreme examples of consequences that would undermine any playability and b) attack on my apparent desire to be a griefer were unwarranted.

We can agree that there is a balancing act between reality, playability, marketability etc. My point is that the common trend appears to be heavily focused on marketability, and just like a lot of movies these days, games have become extremely standardized. Gamers are seldom challenged by products that make them think or care about their character, and speaking from personal experience including 15 years of gaming, I can say that this is a shame.

People don't like games that don't immediately satisfy them. That's why games with steep learning curves like EVE or UO pre-T2A are so great (and so rare) - they challenge the player to actually care. And when something is on the line, your levels of satisfaction aren't restricted as much imo). Its not everyone's cup of tea, but as someone who has played (and enjoyed to different extents) a myriad of PvE AND PvP MMOs, I can safely say there is a market out their for this.

Yes, levels of consequence are going to be subjective, but if you read my previous post I discuss the reasonable requirements to create convincing rules and consequences.

There were rules but they more convincing because they were more in-line with those of the chaotic and barbaric Middle Ages that all fantasy imitates (albeit with magic, creatures etc). A developed settlement/city would certainly have a government that could enforce the rule of law, whereas the wilderness would be a dangerous and lawless area in which caution had to be exercised. And if you were a famous PK, people COULD band together to take you down, just as they might in real life. That was the beauty of it.
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Disciple Lan said:
You know I have had that thought for awhile. I should probably go back.
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Don't get me wrong it has it's boring spaces. But there's so much to do that you can always bounce around and change up your style. Pirate's never have a lack of targets. 0.0 is usually always in danger, etc.
 
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