Shuttles=more babying then ATX?

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Icewindius

Gawd
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A curious question for those of you who have been in the computer industry for some time, and have worked with AT and ATX specced machines alot and maybe continue to build machines of ATX mobo's and such. Have you as current or previous owners of shuttles noticed that SFF need alot more "babying" in comparison to your ATX machines? Are you finding stability more a problem? Compatibility? More parts or devices failing in SFF in comparison to ATX?

Are you convinced that SFF still has a long way to go or that perhaps that this is as good as it gets and SFF simply will have more issues and a greater percentage of failure rates in comparison to ATX machines. Or has it simply been luck of the draw? Hard to say, especially when I see SOOO many SG45G problem posts it makes me wonder if SFF can continue its accelerated growth when a generation has such issues and problems.

I'm just really curious what veterans of the PC worlds opinions are of this rapidly growing niche in the PC market, and how well it competes or holds up against the larger more upgradable standard ATX machines now and in the future.
 
I just received my first SFF shuttle SB61G2 Reflexion about 2 weeks ago, so I am still new to the SFF world. I bought it as a LAN rig. Overall now I am pretty happy with it. There is was a bit of frustration installing XP on the system since the 865 chipset has issues with Munskin Level II ram and the SPD timings. After a ton of surfing I found the solution. Now it runs great with 1G ram, 180G SATA, and a 9700Pro.

SFF computers are not overclocking machines. Power supplies are small and there's not much room to move air. Shuttle looks to make a stable PC so they don't cater to the overclocking in the SFF arena. Plus most people look to buy the cheaper machines and they get what they pay for. I bought a P4 2.4C and can only o/c it to 2.6 (215 fsb). I know it should go higher (3Ghz+) but the system won't boot at all with higher fsb speeds.

A few improvements could be made. Drop the floppy and use a USB floppy. Heck only time I need a floppy is to load my raid drivers for XP. Install slimline DVD/CDRW combo drives for a smaller box. I like the Shuttle ZEN external power supply idea, perhaps they would offer 300w+ units, now a even smaller box. Seperate brackets for the PCI/AGP cards! Annoying as hell when the PCI cover falls out when putting in the video card.

I can't comment on other SFF PCs but now that I have mine running I consider it a good purchase.
 
you're not making a good comparison. ATX is a class of mobos that just have a similar shape and PSU connection. SFF is really just a model line from shuttle. there are tons of ATX mobos from many manufacturers, while just one 'line' of SFF products from a single company. Its not a valid comparison ATX vs SFF. If you want to compare, you simply have to compare the Shuttle XPC as a whole to another computer as a whole.

Originally posted by Icewindius
A curious question for those of you who have been in the computer industry for some time, and have worked with AT and ATX specced machines alot and maybe continue to build machines of ATX mobo's and such. Have you as current or previous owners of shuttles noticed that SFF need alot more "babying" in comparison to your ATX machines? Are you finding stability more a problem? Compatibility? More parts or devices failing in SFF in comparison to ATX?

Are you convinced that SFF still has a long way to go or that perhaps that this is as good as it gets and SFF simply will have more issues and a greater percentage of failure rates in comparison to ATX machines. Or has it simply been luck of the draw? Hard to say, especially when I see SOOO many SG45G problem posts it makes me wonder if SFF can continue its accelerated growth when a generation has such issues and problems.

I'm just really curious what veterans of the PC worlds opinions are of this rapidly growing niche in the PC market, and how well it competes or holds up against the larger more upgradable standard ATX machines now and in the future.
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Not quite correct; Shuttle, MSI, Biostar, and Chyang-Fun are all manufacturers who have had SFF systems available since last year. This year, every major manufacturer is going to have some version of SFF launching.

I have a Biostar IDEQ 200N and couldn't be happier with it. Yes, there are issues like a weak PSU, and small fans which are kind of loud (though not terrible), but it's still really quiet compared to my full tower, and has all the features in the BIOS that I'd ever use. I even OC'd my 1700+ to a 2400+, very easily at stock voltage.

At any rate, I haven't had any problems with stability or crashes. I think the SFF line will continue to grow and competition is good; Shuttle's already been forced to make some improvements to its line because of competition. They seemed to be dragging their feet big time on development; anyone remember how long it took them to get an AGP slot on one of these things?

Right now as a niche market the prices are much higher than regular components, and I fear that the prices will never come down, as manufacturers will want to keep their margins up.

Originally posted by Whatsisname
you're not making a good comparison. ATX is a class of mobos that just have a similar shape and PSU connection. SFF is really just a model line from shuttle. there are tons of ATX mobos from many manufacturers, while just one 'line' of SFF products from a single company. Its not a valid comparison ATX vs SFF. If you want to compare, you simply have to compare the Shuttle XPC as a whole to another computer as a whole.
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Impact9: i would have to disagree on the o.c part, is luck as with any other pc.

i have a 2.4c oced to 3.2, before i had it on the shuttle, i had it on a p4c800 deluxe, oced to 3.2, i couldnt get it any higher, when i installed it on my shuttle i went directly to 3.2, without any problems or anything, maybe i should try to get more out of it, dunno.
i also didnt have any problems wit my memory, i have 1 gb of corsair 3500 memory.

i run it with a radeon 9800 pro. two raptors on raid via the ich5r
a dvd/cdrw combo unit ,3.5 lcd and a turtlebeach santa cruz sound card. without any kind of power trouble.
the only cooling change that i did was change the stock sunon fan for a tt smart fan. nothing else.

i do think they cater to the overclocking comunity, hence you can change the voltages, fsb's and use diferent ratios.

maybe your cpu couldnt do any better?

Icewindius: the Sn45G issues are real and only affect that system.
 
i am aware of that, whoever i didnt think it was necessary to push my point.

Originally posted by spotpuff
Not quite correct; Shuttle, MSI, Biostar, and Chyang-Fun are all manufacturers who have had SFF systems available since last year. This year, every major manufacturer is going to have some version of SFF launching.

I have a Biostar IDEQ 200N and couldn't be happier with it. Yes, there are issues like a weak PSU, and small fans which are kind of loud (though not terrible), but it's still really quiet compared to my full tower, and has all the features in the BIOS that I'd ever use. I even OC'd my 1700+ to a 2400+, very easily at stock voltage.

At any rate, I haven't had any problems with stability or crashes. I think the SFF line will continue to grow and competition is good; Shuttle's already been forced to make some improvements to its line because of competition. They seemed to be dragging their feet big time on development; anyone remember how long it took them to get an AGP slot on one of these things?

Right now as a niche market the prices are much higher than regular components, and I fear that the prices will never come down, as manufacturers will want to keep their margins up.
Click to expand...
 
till i can have a SFF with dual AMDs and onboard scsi, not buying one :p
 
Originally posted by Whatsisname
i am aware of that, whoever i didnt think it was necessary to push my point.
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What do you mean? If you were aware of this then what was your point? Your post was wrong and he pointed it out as such.

I think he made a reasonable comparison. SFF computers are fairly young and there are differences in the implementation from each mfg, however they are quite similiar in overall layout and spec. I dont think he is stating that SFF is a standard, but from what i have seen, the community has accepted and classified these configurations under the SFF title.

What is the spec of the board these machines use? Is it Mini-ITX?
 
Originally posted by mashie
No, Mini-ITX is something completely different.

There are no name for the unofficial standard used in all shuttle cubes and clones. Personally I simply call it SFF.

So what is SFF?

If you look at the external size of the board it follows FlexATX, except it is rotated 90 degrees.

The holes are as per the ATX standard (the six that are within the edges of the board that is).

The relation between the holes and the AGP slot is as per ATX.

The space between the PCI slot and the AGP is as per ATX, just on the opposite side of the AGP slot.


As for compatibility it isn't much issues since all motherboards use the same chipsets regarding of size and shape. Kinda like saying red mobos are more stable than green ;)
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Glad I have an orange PCB. :p

SFF is interesting. I've owned a Shuttle board in the past (AK32A) and it was decent, but it really wasn't an OCer. Shuttle doesn't really make OCing stuff, at least they didn't with the board I bought. :p I've never owned SFF, and really, I HATE cramped cases, so I'm not going to bother with it.

I'm with FLECOM, until you can get SMP rigs with onboard SCSI on them, forget it. :p
 
fact of the matter remains, that SFF will ALWAYS have a long way to go...they're gonna keep getting smaller and smaller, and more complex, until we have computers the size of our palms. Yes, Shuttle will always have "a ways to go" as far as development...but why not just enjoy it for now?

I, for one, am EXTREMELY happy with my Shuttle :D
 
Originally posted by thelostrican
Icewindius: the Sn45G issues are real and only affect that system.
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What issues? The [H] review didn't really have anything bad to say, and a quick search of the Anandtech forums didn't yield any threads complaining about the unit.
I've pretty much decided to get one in the next few weeks, but I've not yet heard of any issues with it.
 
Originally posted by ar1550
Thanks for the link.
Sounds like most of those problems are related to overclocking, and especially change the vdimm setting; I won't be overclocking at all, so this wouldn't really be an issue. Unless I missed something?
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I have an sn45g, and I haven't had a single problem with it. Yes, the overclocking scheme has been a little weird, but if you're not overclocking, this system is FLAWLESS! I highly recommend it...plus the nForce2 Ultra 400 board makes for a very nice system! :)
 
I love my shuttle! I have a pretty decent O/C from a 2500+ to 2.2 and no memory compatability issues. I did have one issue with a weird buzzing sound coming from the mobo but it turned out it was a bios power setting that was fudged. A future bios release fixed it. A minor flaw for the sexy package you get if you ask me. ;)
 
Same here... No problems with mine. However, I haven't been overclocking it, and haven't had any reason to mess with the voltages for the memory at all.

Before I got my SN45G, I was getting really fed up with the huge case i had. It was a pain to move... I could never get the cables to be tidy... and with increasing size of hard drives I really didn't need all that extra room anymore. I couldn't be happier with my SN45G, though. It is small enough to fit in my camera bag. All the cables are appropriate lengths... never too short to reach but also no large amounts of extra cabling to worry with tying back. And really, all I need is one hard drive and one optical drive.

I don't feel like I have to baby my shuttle any more than I babied my old system in the huge aopen case I had. But, I don't think I'll ever go back to a full size case again.
 
Originally posted by Drawshot
Same here... No problems with mine. However, I haven't been overclocking it, and haven't had any reason to mess with the voltages for the memory at all.

Before I got my SN45G, I was getting really fed up with the huge case i had. It was a pain to move... I could never get the cables to be tidy... and with increasing size of hard drives I really didn't need all that extra room anymore. I couldn't be happier with my SN45G, though. It is small enough to fit in my camera bag. All the cables are appropriate lengths... never too short to reach but also no large amounts of extra cabling to worry with tying back. And really, all I need is one hard drive and one optical drive.

I don't feel like I have to baby my shuttle any more than I babied my old system in the huge aopen case I had. But, I don't think I'll ever go back to a full size case again.
Click to expand...

I just noticed that your Shuttle and mine have a lot in common :D

Windows XP Pro sp1 ~ Shuttle SN45G ~ Athlon XP 3000+ Barton ~ 1 GB Corsair TwinX pc3200c2 DDR ~ ATI 9600pro 128mb ~
 
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