HardOCP News
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Ummm, I believe the answer to this question is "yes." If you don't tell them, the follow up question will be "should you tell your employer you are suing them?" 
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Should You Warn Employees You're Geo-Tracking Them?
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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I don't see any issue with this. Its not your property, as long as there is no invasion of privacy (Such as remote camera activation or activating the Mic to listen in) then there should be no issue at all.
Products such as Airwatch track mobile device location and track the history. Also report on usage, applications installed, compliance status and much more.
If you are given the choice between a company phone or a compensation on your personal cell, choose the compensation plan and DO NOT hook is up to the company's network if you are concerned about being tracked.
Company equipment = company policy = they can do alot and not tell you (with exception of invasion of privacy)
Products such as Airwatch track mobile device location and track the history. Also report on usage, applications installed, compliance status and much more.
If you are given the choice between a company phone or a compensation on your personal cell, choose the compensation plan and DO NOT hook is up to the company's network if you are concerned about being tracked.
Company equipment = company policy = they can do alot and not tell you (with exception of invasion of privacy)
larryBird44
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I'd be pissed. Also, as soon as 5pm rolls around that device would be powered down.
dr.stevil
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IMHO, employees should be informed if they're being tracked, regardless of the means used. It's an invasion of privacy.
Not telling them has the potential to create a pretty hostile work environment I'd think, not to mention possible lawsuits and bad press.
Not telling them has the potential to create a pretty hostile work environment I'd think, not to mention possible lawsuits and bad press.
How the question was framed and his response do not rule out the very real possibility that the company outlines all of this in their employee policies.
The fact that Ian Lawrence doesn't tell them does not necessarily mean that they are unaware of the policy or its practice.
As other's have said, dealing with employers' property is usually treated differently than with personal devices.
The fact that Ian Lawrence doesn't tell them does not necessarily mean that they are unaware of the policy or its practice.
As other's have said, dealing with employers' property is usually treated differently than with personal devices.
Monkey God
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They should be told that equipment issued to them by the company has tracking devices, precisely because it can be used to track their movements.
GaryJohnson
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Knowing your location off the clock can be an invasion of privacy because you can sometimes infer from a person's location what kind of activity they are engaged in.
Don't take your employers property with you when you are off the clock. Remember, they are tracking a device, not a person. Some will argue that having a tracked cell phone attached to you hip is in essance tracing a person. However, if the information gathered is not used against an employee or mined to find out employees after hour activities there are no issues.
Some will also argue that the company should stop tracking outside of working hours, however this is also ineffective, given the sensitive data that can be stored on company devices (even if encrypted) the company is liable for any lost or stolen items, hince they should have the right to know where that device is at all times.
I agree. That's why I leave my work laptop and cell in the office.
I have 2 phones, a company phone and my personal phone. My personal phone is an HTC Thunderbolt with unlimited data, my company phone is a blackberry with virtually no data. I never carry my blackberry with me because I hate it and it's utterly useless in every category. Do I complain about it? No, because it's currently sitting in my desk drawer with the battery dead.
If you choose to use a company phone then you pretty much agree to whatever conditions they stipulate. If you dont want to be tracked, get your own damn phone.
If you choose to use a company phone then you pretty much agree to whatever conditions they stipulate. If you dont want to be tracked, get your own damn phone.
LOL
1) Employers give employees cell phones so they can contact the employees, including after hours. Pretty useless if they ditch the phone. If a field service leaves their phone in the office they're going to get fired.
2) Information gathered is always used against a person. To think anything else is naive. That's why privacy exists in the first place.
We weren't wire tapping them, we were simply monitoring the voltage fluctuations of the microphone.
Here's a tip.. phones... laptops.. they don't move on their own. You are tracking someone moving them. If you make an employee carry those things around all the time, even when off the clock, you are tracking them while what they are doing is none of your business, and you have no right to. IF you make it a requirement of the job to have these items on you, you need ot inform the user that a condition of employment is giving up the right to that privacy, or you open yoruself up to liability.
Here's a tip.. phones... laptops.. they don't move on their own. You are tracking someone moving them. If you make an employee carry those things around all the time, even when off the clock, you are tracking them while what they are doing is none of your business, and you have no right to. IF you make it a requirement of the job to have these items on you, you need ot inform the user that a condition of employment is giving up the right to that privacy, or you open yoruself up to liability.
GruntUltra
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If its company property, then I dont feel the employee necessarily has the right to know.
Ten years ago while working as a dock foreman for a shipping company, we received our first 2 phones with GPS. We handed them out to the 2 tractor-trailer drivers that had the most problems in delivering freight on time. The first guy, James, was a night driver. We discovered that he was parking at a Wal-Mart in a nearby city and doing his shopping on certain nights. Whenever he left the Wal-Mart he would head to his house to drop off the groceries and THEN make his pickups and deliveries. He was confronted with it and rather than deny it, James said "A man's got to get his shopping done sometime!" The owner didn't fire him because "it's hard to find people to drive at night."
The 2nd guy, Bill, had 3 bundles of cabinets to deliver to 3 different Lowe's warehouses. He was 2 hours late for the 1st appointment, 2½ hours late for the 2nd, and the 3rd warehouse would close before he could get there so he returned with that part of the load. The owner confronted Bill with a GPS track of his route displaying the drivers trip SOUTH (his 1st stop was east, and then the next two were north from there). Bill's girlfriend lived in Fayetteville, NC, where he made his lengthy detour to visit before making his deliveries that day. He was fired.
This might not be the case for ALL situations, but it makes a good argument for not telling.
Ten years ago while working as a dock foreman for a shipping company, we received our first 2 phones with GPS. We handed them out to the 2 tractor-trailer drivers that had the most problems in delivering freight on time. The first guy, James, was a night driver. We discovered that he was parking at a Wal-Mart in a nearby city and doing his shopping on certain nights. Whenever he left the Wal-Mart he would head to his house to drop off the groceries and THEN make his pickups and deliveries. He was confronted with it and rather than deny it, James said "A man's got to get his shopping done sometime!" The owner didn't fire him because "it's hard to find people to drive at night."
The 2nd guy, Bill, had 3 bundles of cabinets to deliver to 3 different Lowe's warehouses. He was 2 hours late for the 1st appointment, 2½ hours late for the 2nd, and the 3rd warehouse would close before he could get there so he returned with that part of the load. The owner confronted Bill with a GPS track of his route displaying the drivers trip SOUTH (his 1st stop was east, and then the next two were north from there). Bill's girlfriend lived in Fayetteville, NC, where he made his lengthy detour to visit before making his deliveries that day. He was fired.
This might not be the case for ALL situations, but it makes a good argument for not telling.
Seraphical
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This goes beyond cell phones and laptops. Many companies provide a vehicle for an employee to drive. Monitoring their property becomes a necessity at this point... especially if a gas allowance is being provided as well.
Generally the best policy is to tell an employee that they are being tracked. What's the old saying? Locks keep honest people honest? Same concept, different spin.
Generally the best policy is to tell an employee that they are being tracked. What's the old saying? Locks keep honest people honest? Same concept, different spin.
Exactly!
I mean, just because they HAVE the information doesn't mean it won't get ABUSED. This is kind of similar to the whole government expansion of power thing. Why does anybody worry about it? If you're not doing anything bad, you have nothing to worry about! And trust us, nobody would EVER abuse the information they had at their fingertips.
As long as it's done on their shift, then yes employers have the right to do this. What an employee does off the clock is none of an employers' business - but if you break said company device on your own time, be prepared to have your paycheck docked.
MavericK
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If it's something like a laptop, okay maybe constant tracking is fine.
A cell phone though, probably not.
In either case they should be notified that they are being tracked, though. Otherwise it's just shady as fuck.
A cell phone though, probably not.
In either case they should be notified that they are being tracked, though. Otherwise it's just shady as fuck.
Exactly,
But its not illegal. .. . yet at least.
Good practice is to tell the employee that the device is tracked, but its not required from a legal standpoint as far a i know
The laptop tracking is generally used as an anti-theft device (and pretty common in large corporations) and is - AFAIK - disabled unless the laptop is reported stolen.
Always assumed this was the case, but was verified by a friend who worked on the global sec team when I worked in a Fortune 50 tech company.
It's already legal. A couple years back, a guy sued his employer for firing him based on the employer tracking his phone when they suspect him lying when he called in sick (he went to Vegas). The judge sided with the employer and said they had every right as long as it's company property. If you don't want to be tracked, keep the phone at home.
BoogerBomb
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And what difference does the employee knowing make? The company is still tracking the device. I too am in the camp of company property they have the right to know where it is, don't fuck around when you're on the clock.
Trepidati0n
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The point is not that they are tracking the phone. Nobody is aruging that. The issue is WHEN are they tracking the phone and under what conditions. The same goes for the laptop. Even in "right to work states", there is still some level of "that is just creepy" that you just don't cross.
Track my phone doing work hours. Sure...no problem. Track my phone @ 3AM when there is implicit guidance you have your phone on you at all times (e.g. nealry every professional on the planet)...no. There is no rational business reason to do it other than either being creepy (e.g like when they were activating kids webcams at home) or trying to get leverage.
MavericK
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Because if it's an item like a cell phone that you can use off the clock, they have no business knowing what you do after business hours.
BoogerBomb
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They do if you use their equipment to do it as they could be held liable for what you do on/with it.
MavericK
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So if they give me a phone that they allow for personal use, they should be able to track where I am at any time during the day, even outside of business hours?
Sorry, but I'm not cool with that, and I don't think a lot of other people would be either. And if it can be used as a personal phone I'm not going to pay more for a separate personal phone line, that's just a waste of money.
Company property, and completely legal everywhere i have ever been. That being said, the company needs to be up front about it and say that company devices are tracked.
And if the company is going to track a device, like a cell phone, do not be surprised if it;s not carried after hours if you are tracking it. If i have to carry it for business use after hours, then don't track it.
While i personally don't do anything shady after hours that i am worried about causing any issues with my job, i also do not want my employer to have access to that information. I have a company issued PDA that i don't carry for that very reason. They track it, and i simply refused to carry it, and my supervisor told me that was my prerogative. I <3 my boss, he is awesome!
And if the company is going to track a device, like a cell phone, do not be surprised if it;s not carried after hours if you are tracking it. If i have to carry it for business use after hours, then don't track it.
While i personally don't do anything shady after hours that i am worried about causing any issues with my job, i also do not want my employer to have access to that information. I have a company issued PDA that i don't carry for that very reason. They track it, and i simply refused to carry it, and my supervisor told me that was my prerogative. I <3 my boss, he is awesome!
I know, hence I said prior to that post it needs to be within reason, as in during one's shift, even on a sick day (as in my example about the Vegas guy). Not when you're not scheduled to come in.
Really? Who has a PDA these days
Yeah, would have been a real shame if the drivers were told they were being tracked and just did their job. Much better to spy on them
BTW, no, employers do not have the right to monitor employees, even while they are being paid, without consent. You're being paid for a service, you're not a part time slave.
I don't know why people are in such a rush to throw away their own rights.
How are they going to be held liable for what you do with a cell phone? What are you going to do, choke the Queen with it? Please don't make up problems, the real world has enough already.
Must be nice living in a black and white world.
I rarely hear of a company that hands out electronic devices and computers and tablets to employees without them signing an agreement (or an agreement when hiring them) that they're responsible for the health of their equipment and that they have a duty to report problems to appropriate authorities in the company (as opposed to fixing it themselves). We realize accidents happen and we don't prosecute every person who break something or virused something (within reason - if you pirate or browse porn and get virused, you're out).
BoogerBomb
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So its none of the companies business if you host pirated software on their web servers? Use it to view illegal porn? After all even though you are being paid at that time it is absolutely none of their business what you do during the time they are paying you to do something right?
And yes people do indeed do dumb shit like that and are caught because what they do is being monitored.
Gorankar
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When you came to work for my company, you signed a form that essentially gave the company permission to track any of their THEIR property you may be in possession of, (cell phones, laptops, etc), and to monitor all web traffic on THEIR computers and networks.
I can not imagine that not being the norm. Read b4 you sign.
That has nothing to do with liability.
I meant monitoring location of employees. Monitoring the use of their own equipment is of course their business.
we do the same. you sign a form stating that the phones and electronics are owned by the company. They have the right to monitor and access them at any time.
Don't take your employers property with you when you are off the clock. Remember, they are tracking a device, not a person. Some will argue that having a tracked cell phone attached to you hip is in essance tracing a person. However, if the information gathered is not used against an employee or mined to find out employees after hour activities there are no issues.
Some will also argue that the company should stop tracking outside of working hours, however this is also ineffective, given the sensitive data that can be stored on company devices (even if encrypted) the company is liable for any lost or stolen items, hince they should have the right to know where that device is at all times.
-------------------------------------------Deeply agree with this point!
Some will also argue that the company should stop tracking outside of working hours, however this is also ineffective, given the sensitive data that can be stored on company devices (even if encrypted) the company is liable for any lost or stolen items, hince they should have the right to know where that device is at all times.
-------------------------------------------Deeply agree with this point!