Server Upgrade on a Tight Budget

C

comicbob

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 18, 2003
Messages
152
I recently got my first IT job consulting for a small marketing company, and I could use some advice pertaining to the server upgrade I'm currenty planning.

The network I'm working on is a Windows 2000 domain. There is one SBS 2000 server, a Dell Poweredge 2500 (dual 1GHz cpu, 2GB RAM, and very little HDD space) with 26 Windows 2000 Pro clients. The server crashes almost every morning, and there are enough processes running coupled with many other small aspects (low memory availability, low available disk space, etc) that make the server very twitchy. I have a hard time getting it to boot properly at times, and many programs not already running on the machine hang due upon execution or use (for example, adding counters to the performance monitor). The client workstations all have low hardware specs (1.5GHz specs 256MB ram) and are frustratingly slow. The budget for a server upgrade is pretty low (maybe just enough for a low-end server, a new OS, and CALs if they can squeeze that), so finding a solution for an upgrade has become very difficult.

The options I have thought of are as follows:

Option 1: Upgrade from SBS 2000 to SBS 2008
This would be the best option in the long run, but problem I have found with this option is the lack of proper support 2008 provides for Windows 2000. All the client OSs would need upgrading to at least XP pro, but there are no funds available for that. From what I have read, this large of a jump can get messy pretty quickly if not done correctly.

Option 2: Upgrade from SBS 2000 to SBS 2003
This is my prefered option. SBS 2003 is the step up from 2000, and supports Win 2000 Pro. All I would have to do is plan, test, and perform a migration. The problem I've found with this option is finding CALs for SBS 2003. I have found that there are still copies of SBS 2003 Standard Edition and Premium Edition available (premium being the prefered version as it includes SQL 2005. The lack of documentation of network and software licenses is a seperate, frustrating issue). I have not found any CALs specifically for SBS 2003. Can't do much without the CALs.

Option 3: Upgrade server hardware and migrate the SBS 2000 install to new hardare
This option is the best option second to finding a copy of SBS 2003 and 2003 CALs. It provides a desperatly needed performance upgrade, and will add overall stability to the network, and allow me to more easily implement other changes (proper backup routine, more HDD space, etc).

Option 4: Keep current server on life support
Most cost effective in the short run; guaranteed to fail at the worst-possible time.

There happens to be a Dell Precision 690 (dual Xeon 5110, 2GB RAM, etc) randomly in the office, but I have not yet found proper drivers for that machine for any server operating system (haven't had much time to research options regarding finding an appropriate driver though). There may be some workaround out on the internet somewhere, but unless there is a rock solid workaround, I'm not willing to deploy an iffy fix on a server with no redundancy that runs 24x7.

So, my immediate questions are:

1) Does anyone have any input on my choices? From what I know I have to work with, option 3 seems like the best way to go, even though upgrading the OS would make the network more future-proof. I really wish I wasn't limited so much, but something needs to be done. I've already been given the green light to upgrade the server, I just need to find a way to get it done.

2) Are there any obscure software retailers somewhere that might have some SBS 2003 CALs for sale? I talked with Dell's SMB sales department and have combed Amazon and similar sites and have only found 2008 and some 2003 versions of SBS.
 
It sounds like you should find out what they run on their local machines and leverage them towards a terminal server. I'd virtualize whatever so if you need to upgrade or replace the host you could.

I'd almost tell them it is going to cost X, if they say it is too much tell them they will pay you that in Z time frame just to keep what they have going.
 
If they are not willing to spend the money my first thought is to run, not walk away.

Licensing is simple. Microsoft has downgrade rights. You can buy sbs2008 and legally downgrade it to sbs 2003 including the cals. You'd have to get the cal keys through ms though as sbs2003 required they be installed. Best bet would be a volume license as you could download the old versions.

At this point I'd kinda be iffy about deploying sbs 2003 unless I didn't have a choice. Do they currently use exchange? If not you could go with 2008 standard and keep the 2k workstations.
 
Its called a complete overhaul. Your hardware will be a issue. Sbs 03 will propably run but will probably not fix much.

New server, and new desktops.
 
comicbob said:
There happens to be a Dell Precision 690 (dual Xeon 5110, 2GB RAM, etc) randomly in the office, but I have not yet found proper drivers for that machine for any server operating system (haven't had much time to research options regarding finding an appropriate driver though). There may be some workaround out on the internet somewhere, but unless there is a rock solid workaround, I'm not willing to deploy an iffy fix on a server with no redundancy that runs 24x7.
.
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Take the service tag information go to the dell.com website and then to drivers & downloads throw the service tag info into it and see what drivers are available and for what os.

Maybe throwing more ram into the box with newer hard drives might be a option. Run the dell diag's on it, also run other diags on it, check the mother board for bad caps.
 
Alright, i just looked up the specs of your dell box, its probably the exact same model i used to have for a work station, loved it, such a work horse.

Here is what i would do if you are REALLY limited.

Upgrade the box's memory put atleast 4-8 gigs in it, Look on ebay or buy brand new, its not that expencive for that box.

Upgrade the hard drives to sata drives, they are VERY CHEAP put 2 sata drives in it and raid them.

This dell box will be a nice little server UNTIL you can get the full funds to get a better one, you could run 2008r2 hyperV OR esxi on this dell box, that way when you are ready to get a new server you can move the virtual servers to the new box and CROSSFINGERS be back up and running.

Just my suggestions :)

j'
 
dashpuppy said:
Alright, i just looked up the specs of your dell box, its probably the exact same model i used to have for a work station, loved it, such a work horse.

Here is what i would do if you are REALLY limited.

Upgrade the box's memory put atleast 4-8 gigs in it, Look on ebay or buy brand new, its not that expencive for that box.

Upgrade the hard drives to sata drives, they are VERY CHEAP put 2 sata drives in it and raid them.

This dell box will be a nice little server UNTIL you can get the full funds to get a better one, you could run 2008r2 hyperV OR esxi on this dell box, that way when you are ready to get a new server you can move the virtual servers to the new box and CROSSFINGERS be back up and running.

Just my suggestions :)

j'
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I've been thinking of trying to virtualize another application server, but you're right, I had not thought of virtualizing the main server. I'll grab the machine and setup a testbed. Thanks.

swatbat said:
If they are not willing to spend the money my first thought is to run, not walk away.

Licensing is simple. Microsoft has downgrade rights. You can buy sbs2008 and legally downgrade it to sbs 2003 including the cals. You'd have to get the cal keys through ms though as sbs2003 required they be installed. Best bet would be a volume license as you could download the old versions.

At this point I'd kinda be iffy about deploying sbs 2003 unless I didn't have a choice. Do they currently use exchange? If not you could go with 2008 standard and keep the 2k workstations.
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I just started researching Microsoft licensing for this project, so it's a little complex at the moment, but I'm sure I'll get it soon enough. I didn't realize that the software and CALs could be downgraded. Is it safe to assume that the downgrade process is a one-way move?

And about the job, I've started to question whether it's worth my time or not, but I figure that aside from the frequent minor problems it experiences, it's a good introduction to IT in terms of forcing me to put what I've already learned into practice. And I'm already thinking of looking for a new job.

Thanks for the reply's, they're both very helpful.
 
Virtual everything :) Except the firewall of course :)

that dual xeon box is pretty power full * not saying its super fast and good like todays stuff * but for saving some $$ you could build a nice esxi / 2008r2 hyperv box, just get LOTS of ram.

Upgrade thos HDD's too :)
 
My suggestion is to "band-aid" what you have temporarily, while you come up with a complete server replacement plan. Increase disk space, and possibly RAM. Upgrading this old PE2500 to SBS03 or 08 makes no sense. Too old, too many limitations. But, low disk space can wreak havoc on SBS. Do not waste time money or effort on replacing the existing drives with SATA- they are a step backwards not forward considering what you have. I'm guessing you have a PERC Raid adapter with U160 SCSI drives, right? I would also guess they are in a Raid5 array? You can Ebay another drive or 2 for chump change. Get them used, with the carriers (don't forget those!) and expand your partition(s). This will get you out of the woods for drive space cheaply while you plan for a server replacement. Again, low disk space is very bad in SBS... rememdy this immediately.

Also, the 2500 is a 32bit (only) server, and also remember that both SBS03 and 08 have a 4GB memory limit in 32bit. Adding more is a waste- you can't use it. But bumping your 2 up to 4 would help a little.

Migrating is tricky, and doesn't always go smoothly. Most important is that AD is in perfect shape on what you have BEFORE you migrate. My guess is it isn't. To migrate to 08 or later, you need to create and add a new temporary domain controller; move server roles temporarily; introduce the new server; remove exchange and demote the old; promote the new and seize roles; and all the while hope that NOTHING goes wrong.

Gulp.

All of this is possible, and it all CAN work, but it is not cheap, or easy. If they do not or will not accept this fact... time for you to move on. They'll figure it out eventually when everything collapses around them, most mail and maybe most data is lost, and then they'll have to install a new setup no matter what.
 
comicbob said:
I just started researching Microsoft licensing for this project, so it's a little complex at the moment, but I'm sure I'll get it soon enough. I didn't realize that the software and CALs could be downgraded. Is it safe to assume that the downgrade process is a one-way move?

And about the job, I've started to question whether it's worth my time or not, but I figure that aside from the frequent minor problems it experiences, it's a good introduction to IT in terms of forcing me to put what I've already learned into practice. And I'm already thinking of looking for a new job.

Thanks for the reply's, they're both very helpful.
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No if you downgrade you can run the newer versions in the future. Just did an overhaul at a non-profit who had been running word perfect and outlook(sbs2k3 licensing). We ordered an office vlk for them as the newer versions of exchange don't have outlook licensing and for a non-profit office is cheap. Most of the machines went right to office 2010. Like two or three were put on office 2k3 until we can retire the machines, then we will bump the users to 2010.

Soft rules on downgrade rights

Business windows: Yes(xp pro, vista business/ultimate, windows 7 pro/ultimate)
Server windows: Yes
Server software: Yes(exchange, sql, etc)
Office software: No for retail/oem, yes for volume licensing.

twwabw said:
Migrating is tricky, and doesn't always go smoothly. Most important is that AD is in perfect shape on what you have BEFORE you migrate. My guess is it isn't. To migrate to 08 or later, you need to create and add a new temporary domain controller; move server roles temporarily; introduce the new server; remove exchange and demote the old; promote the new and seize roles; and all the while hope that NOTHING goes wrong.

Gulp.

All of this is possible, and it all CAN work, but it is not cheap, or easy. If they do not or will not accept this fact... time for you to move on. They'll figure it out eventually when everything collapses around them, most mail and maybe most data is lost, and then they'll have to install a new setup no matter what.
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If we are talking about going from 2000 sbs to say 2008sbs I'd prob Grab a friend or two and just rebuild the ad from scratch over a weekend if it doesn't look like it is in good shape. Migrating from 2k to 2k8 is going to be a bitch because of exchange.
 
Speaking from experience... whatever you do, don't half-ass it and try to make inferior/horribly outdated equipment work until you fully communicate what that could mean (performance, downtime, inefficiency, unreliability) to the business you're working with. If they really value their network and what it can do for them, they should be able to pony up some cash to do it right. If they don't value their network (as appears to be the case), then everything you do for them will be like pulling teeth and any issues will be blamed on you.

At least give them the option of a full upgrade of the server and clients (switches, router, firewall also if needed). They probably won't bite, but at least you can say you gave them the option to do it right.
 
Windows 2000? Are you serious, fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

run as fast as you can
 
dashpuppy said:
whats wrong with windows 2000 ? I liked it better than xp.!
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lol, if you don't know what's wrong with still running win2k, the clients... "dashpuppy.. fuuuuuuuuu, ruhn away!"

LOL

(or is it ok, so long as there is an untangle box on site?)
 
Berg0 said:
lol, if you don't know what's wrong with still running win2k, the clients... "dashpuppy.. fuuuuuuuuu, ruhn away!"

LOL

(or is it ok, so long as there is an untangle box on site?)
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I still like win2k, its a nice os, much sexier than xp.
 
Why, because the disk came in a jewel case instead of the crazy paper folder thing they went to?
 
Cheapest way to get them running better would be to throw ESXi on that Xeon box, then P2V their current server over to it, give it some more disk space and another gig of RAM or something during the conversion. That should get them stable long enough to figure out what they need to do long term. They need to decide what it is they want their server to be doing for them, then develop an upgrade plan from there.
 
Captain Colonoscopy said:
Cheapest way to get them running better would be to throw ESXi on that Xeon box, then P2V their current server over to it, give it some more disk space and another gig of RAM or something during the conversion. That should get them stable long enough to figure out what they need to do long term. They need to decide what it is they want their server to be doing for them, then develop an upgrade plan from there.
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That's the direction I'm headed right now. After reading through the feedback, I think in this situation the server needs to become stable first, then I can worry about upgrading software.

After discussing this with my client, he seems more willing to spend a little extra money upfront to get his server upgraded sooner rather than later. It's still not the most ideal situation ever, but at least it's looking better than it did a couple days ago.
 
Just looked at that Precision Workstation. Not really sure I'd want to use it really. You'd have to upgrade RAM and put some disks in it, probably buy a RAID controller as it only supports RAID0/1 onboard I think. Performance will be terrible on RAID1 SATA disks. Probably better off buying a decent server off the Dell Outlet store if money is tight, at least you'd have a warranty. If they're going to be thinking long term upgrades then I'd recommend at least 8GB of RAM, quad-core Xeon and at least 3x 146GB SAS drives in RAID5. That way they'd be able to upgrade it down the road if they need to add more services or what not. If you're going to go the ESXi route, I'd get two disks for the ESXi OS and then 3-5 disks in RAID5/6 to store the VMs.
 
pick up a poweredge R210, install ESXi, P2V their crappy DC, build new S2k8 SBS VM, roll out new low end desktops, recreate domain.
 
only a few options:

1 - upgrade memory in current server and go to sbs 2003 - slow specs already, may or may not fix freezing issue, out dated, and only will save a little time
2 - purchase new server and esx i current and hopefully it will run better, and then start migrating to new
3 - complete over haul. if they have win2k machines could probably go to xp, but cost of labor and software is stupid. replace machines with Dell Vostro with Win7, $365 a computer. Purchase a new server and either ESXi or do hardware version. I would just do a hardware server as your needs aren't that great. Ways to save money are going with Dell Outlet.
 
Ok, so I think my client has made up his mind and just wants to spend as little money as possible. "Bubble gum and paper clips McGeyver! Make it work" was his response to the options I sent him (the preferred option being to buy a cheaper, relatively current server, throw ESXi on it, and do a P2V transfer), but instead he just wants to put a band-aid on his current configuration. The route he will probably go now is purchase a server that is slightly better off of craigslist, and I'll have to migrate the OS to the new hardware. So while I plan for that, I'll search for the magic IT wand he seems to think I have hidden up my butt.
 
Why is the server unstable?? Is it an OS problem or a hardware problem?? Do you know that?? Can you run like memtest86 on the machine after hours to make sure your ram isn't bad?? Check the mobo for bad caps.... are there any bulged ones??

If the instability is from bad hardware, replace the bad hardware. If it is software and the machine needs to be formatted, then build another server(or get a used one as you mentioned) installe 2k on it and move your roles to the new server, and dcpromo the old one and take it out of commission. THEN I would format the old machine and bring it back in as a BDC, so if one of your junky servers goes bad, at least you will still be up and running! :D
 
What is low on drive space the 12 gig standard boot partition? Do something simple to get more drive space on the boot partition by using links to move some folders off to a different drive. Junction Link Magic works great for this.
 
comicbob said:
Ok, so I think my client has made up his mind and just wants to spend as little money as possible. "Bubble gum and paper clips McGeyver! Make it work" was his response to the options I sent him (the preferred option being to buy a cheaper, relatively current server, throw ESXi on it, and do a P2V transfer), but instead he just wants to put a band-aid on his current configuration. The route he will probably go now is purchase a server that is slightly better off of craigslist, and I'll have to migrate the OS to the new hardware. So while I plan for that, I'll search for the magic IT wand he seems to think I have hidden up my butt.
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Yea I'd prob walk on that. Don't think I'd want to deal with the issues.

DeChache said:
I would walk away at this point
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Run, don't walk.
 
QwertyJuan said:
Why is the server unstable?? Is it an OS problem or a hardware problem?? Do you know that?? Can you run like memtest86 on the machine after hours to make sure your ram isn't bad?? Check the mobo for bad caps.... are there any bulged ones??

If the instability is from bad hardware, replace the bad hardware. If it is software and the machine needs to be formatted, then build another server(or get a used one as you mentioned) installe 2k on it and move your roles to the new server, and dcpromo the old one and take it out of commission. THEN I would format the old machine and bring it back in as a BDC, so if one of your junky servers goes bad, at least you will still be up and running! :D
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The server hardware is bad per se; there is just so much running on it that there is almost no overhead for any additional tasks other than what it starts at boot. When I started working with this network, it was already pretty bad. Hopefully explaining its condition will better explain why I'm pushing for new server hardware (I am not a fan of the previous admin).

- There is no network documentation at all. As far as troubleshooting goes, I have to dig through whatever I'm troubleshooting to see how it is configured. There are things in the network, such as the predictive dialer, that I still have trouble with because the previous admin left no configuration documentation. I understand how it is configured in relation to its network operation, I still don't know how the procedure to configure specific aspects of the dialer yet. The vendor is won't help unless it's for a large sum of money.

- There is no managed switch...which didn't seem too bad at first...until I saw the 15 four-port hubs and switches scattered around the office, acting as cable extenders. One switch had the collision lights going off. So cabling is an issue.

- The server runs like it has never had its disks defragged, registry cleaned, etc. I cannot add counters to performance monitor for analysis, it hangs. I tried running disk cleanup wizard, that was still analyzing when I got back in the morning after running it overnight. I have tried booting the server into safe mode, but that hangs. The last time I shutdown a process on the server, it took a long time to come back up. It simply takes the server a long time to do any other than its normal roles. It normally has to be restarted each morning to function properly.

- I found out recently that the antivirus subscription ran out. I was asked to research another antivirus solution. When I had one picked out, I was told he couldn't afford it. So I'm looking to see if there's another option that doesn't include individually installing free antivirus on 30 computers. Probably not though.

- They backup their data to a 1TB external HDD. They just got some offsite storage (5GB) with their new ISP, which will cover some payroll data. Maybe some other stuff. It's not pretty.

I understand that I'm not too experienced with working with a production network, and I'm trying to not get overwhelmed with the long list of standing issues as well as everything that keeps popping up (I did say it was my first IT job; fresh out of school; I know I can do it, I'm just still learning how to put what I've learned into practice). The reason I'm tackling the server before anything else is due to the fact that it causes the most problems, the most headaches, and is the most vital component in this network. If it fails, all the other network problems become moot.

Anyway, after reading all the suggestions, I think the best way to go is virtualization. I would like to avoid migrating the OS to new hardware if possible. Getting a new server capable of virtualizing a server and doing a P2V transfer would be much quicker. I'll do what I have to do though.

And to everyone who has said run like hell, I completely understand why. After the McGeyver bit, I started looking for a new job. I'm not in a position where I can simply leave this one, but until I find something new, I'll do what I can and just spend lots of time learning.
 
Id run, or unless you can tell him he is paying you for every hour that there are problems and for every hour you spend getting the "used" machine converted and running, id tell him this first before tackling it, unless you wish to waste and give free time, thats up to you tho.
 
Honestly, it should be a good learning experience for you. Not on the technical side of things, but the business/personal side. Just make sure they don't drag you down and compromise your reputation/future in the industry.
 
joblo37pam said:
Honestly, it should be a good learning experience for you. Not on the technical side of things, but the business/personal side. Just make sure they don't drag you down and compromise your reputation/future in the industry.
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so true, he will have some hands on experience in the "REAL" working field, if you can sift through this learn you will be a strong technician.

If you need help you can always post on here and we can all do our best to help you out.

J'
 
Thanks, I really do appreciate it. I'm working to train myself to work in a correct, professional manner, collecting tools and a mountain of reading material, creating virtual labs, etc. I think if I do well with getting this network into better shape, then I will have put myself in a good position for later work. I am working this job mostly for the experience. If anything, it got my foot in the door to the IT field.
 
Oh, he's billing his boss for all of the hours for the used server, even all the research for the fixes, even the antivirus; however getting paid hasn't been consistent either, now that comicbob is raking in more hours the boss doesn't want him on the employee payroll but rather as a contractor, so he needs a business license so he can be taxed properly, it'll be good for his future to have one, but as his best friend I've told him to get up and leave too.

The 15 consumer level switches littered about the place is the funniest part of this network to me, it's jut histerical. I do hope he figures out a solution that this guy is willing to do however, the best option seems to sell the Precision 690 that's laying around to get a larger server budget or part of an AV budget along with what's already being allowed, although the boss is going back and forth on actually buying a machine or just fixing what's already there..

It's a mess, there's no budget, no money, nothing, it's just ridiculous.. if this guy wants to keep his business, it's time he starts laying people off to pay for what's necesarry..

Ugh.. I hope you figure this out man, I'm always available to help with anything (so long as I'm not at work obviously).
 
I've spoken with the boss and getting paid isn't an issue; that will definitely happen. Most of the friction is from me thinking long term and him thinking short term. It's all about compromise.
 
comicbob said:
I've spoken with the boss and getting paid isn't an issue; that will definitely happen. Most of the friction is from me thinking long term and him thinking short term. It's all about compromise.
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That is certainly welcome news.

Compromise in this scenario means more of those consumer hubs/switches..
 
Personally, when it reaches the point that a client tells me they can't afford an anti-virus subscription I walk away. I'm sorry, but if they can't afford $400.00 a year for 10+ licenses that tells me the client isn't serious about their IT needs. A real business (one with multiple employees) can't get by on spending a few hundred dollars a year on IT. I could understand if this were a non-profit, but a for-profit company should be budgeting for these things.

You need to have a heart-to-heart with the client regarding his IT equipment in-person and not via e-mail. You need to explain to him that it is not worth sinking any more money into his aging infrastructure. He is well past the end-of-life on a lot of it.

My recommendation would be to look into Dell's financing terms. They have been running quite a few promotions for servers and desktops at very low interest rates (less than 5% interest). Walk in with a game plan and all the information at hand. Make him see your way.

If after your presentation he still refuses, thank him for his time, and politely decline to work on it. Eventually something will fail and he will blame you for it regardless if you caused it. It doesn't matter if the client refused to replace a faulty piece of equipment. It all falls into your lap regardless if it is good or bad.

============

Does your client have a budget in mind? Saying "tight budget" could mean $500.00 or $5000.00.
 
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DeChache said:
I would walk away at this point
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This.

I think I'd look at pulling the hubs and going switches.

Do they need SBS? I'd find a server and get their shit moved and get them to a terminal server environment. Then the desktops can say as-is.

I would break it down to phases, phase 1 is this and costs that, etc.

Make your proposal so you can admin and continue to support. If you do not know where anyone left off, Phase out a rebuild starting at the server.

Def charge them for any research time that you have to do. Round up to the nearest hour on any admin work you need to do on the current mess.
 
I think if you're going to stick with this client, I would go with a phased approach as well. I had a similar experience myself, and as others have stated before, you're gonna learn a lot about the business side of this with SMBs. I would suggest you sit with the client and break it down in a worst case scenario. Prior to you getting your hands dirty make it very clear that there is no documentation, and you won't know off the bat what's going on if things go wrong. He will need to allow for a window so that you can do him a favor and organize his documentation. Find out what is what before you even start.

If money is such an issue, he may be ok to pay for things in smaller sums instead of a massive payment. Just worked with a client like this and we redid their network first and over the course of a few months slowly upgraded everything else. They also balked at any prices with a comma in them whenever I presented a quote. But if you can explain his worst case scenario clearly without technical jargon it should scare the crap out of him and start him thinking. You can come to those meetings and try not to sell him on an instant fix but more of a long term project with small steps. Just make sure each step will have an impact.

That server sounds like a nightmare fix that you may want to thoroughly research before tackling. He may get better performance with the clients if you get the network squared away and off the 15 hubs. This may lower the load on the server (especially if you have to be resending packets 100 times because of the broadcast traffic). You had mentioned that the owner is interested in getting a used server off of craigslist. Any chance that you can offload some responsibilities like a LOB app or database from the main server and putting it on the secondary hardware? Running it like this until you can get enough cash to get something reasonable that will handle what he needs and have upgradeability.
 
comicbob said:
I think if I do well with getting this network into better shape, then I will have put myself in a good position for later work. I am working this job mostly for the experience. If anything, it got my foot in the door to the IT field.
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If you want to do it for the experience then fine. I will say that if they are as cheap as you say the later work will either not come or be a pain in the ass and a constant fight. If they are not willing to spend the money they will always skate along unless they don't have a choice. Short of getting sold/new management it will not get better.

I mean if you can't get them to buy antivirus how do you expect to fix the rest of the more expensive issues? Shit will always be on life support with excuses why it can't be replaced or how it needs to be replaced with used trash. I've seen this happen a few times. Lucky most of the clients we have had under the above end up moving on to lower level companies that manly do shitty home support and whatnot or go under. Most of the ones I can think of went under. I have one client right now that I'm trying to convince my company to drop. Tired of hearing that they can't replace anything when they have had a year and a half warning. Surprised most of the hardware is still going.

The only I can think of that is still going otherwise closed a few shops. As a computer fails they throw another old 1.8 or 2.0 p4 in they took out of the closed shops. Most of them have expired norton 2001 or 2003, service pack 2 because they had to load it like a year or two ago for their software, and otherwise completely crap. The machines come out of a very rough environment as well. As they run out of machines I'm sure they will start replacing them. The lost money due to lost productivity from them has to be nuts though.

Striker109 said:
Personally, when it reaches the point that a client tells me they can't afford an anti-virus subscription I walk away. I'm sorry, but if they can't afford $400.00 a year for 10+ licenses that tells me the client isn't serious about their IT needs. A real business (one with multiple employees) can't get by on spending a few hundred dollars a year on IT. I could understand if this were a non-profit, but a for-profit company should be budgeting for these things.
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Hell non-profits from my experience are easy with software licensing due to discounts. Just took one to server 2008r2, exchange 2010, and office pro 2010. Also got windows 7 vlk with cals for every machine and eset for the entire network. Cost of all of that was under a grand.
 
swatbat said:
Hell non-profits from my experience are easy with software licensing due to discounts. Just took one to server 2008r2, exchange 2010, and office pro 2010. Also got windows 7 vlk with cals for every machine and eset for the entire network. Cost of all of that was under a grand.
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That's correct, but I was talking more along the lines of their willingness to spend money. Non-profits try to spend as little as possible on office administration while funneling the rest to their community projects. I can understand that way of thinking. I just have a hard time understanding why a for-profit business refuses to spend any money on their IT needs especially when it is about to fall apart (see op's posts).
 
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