programming career advice please

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xhail

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 21, 2002
Messages
187
I'm posting this because I know there probably are a bunch of people on this forum who work in the computer fields. I would like some advice, if possible.

I graduated in January 06 with a BS in computer science. I didn't start looking for a job until the end of february (I was on a vacation). I have not had much luck landing any entry level jobs as of yet (NY & NJ). I've been having trouble finding entry level jobs that are truly for entry level candidates. It's either they list an entry-level job requiring 1 year of corporate experience or they have a big demanding list of technology requirements.

On my recent search for a job, I stumbled across a company named SetFocus. They do a 13 week, M-F, 8 hour per day .NET training session. They also gear the students up for the MCAD and MCSD certification tests. The tuition is 18k and they also help place you with a client company they work with at the end of training.

I'm curious if anyone has heard of this company and if it's a good decision to attend such classes considering 18,000 dollars is a sizeable chunk of money for a recent graduate. Do prospective employees really value MCAD and MCSD certificates? Any tips on how to get my foot in the door for an entry-level position?

Thank you for any advice and or criticisms!
 
I don't think $18,000 for a couple of certifications is worth it.

I'd look at hiring a headhunter or placement agency.
 
I think I've seen ads for those ppl... if they're the ones I think they are, it sounds like a scam, if you ask me. Even so, if you have no experience and just a piece of paper, what good is having -another- piece of paper and more skills that haven't been applied in the real world? This sounds, at best, like the fast track to being a disposable code-monkey.


Two questions you need to ask yourself (and knowing the answer might help us, too) :
1) do you have any relevant experience?
2) where do you want to be?

I'm going to work under the assumption that you don't have a lot of experience to put on your resume.

Make sure your resume focuses on your education - there's no sense in writing 3/4 of a page of "house painter" and "fry cook" and then only using one line to talk about your degree. Emphasise projects and key classes you've taken (hint: things like "software engineering", "technical writing", "large programming design" and "principles of database systems" are going to count more in most places, especially for entry level gigs, than "super-advanced calculus", "data-structures your future boss has never heard of" and "abstract computer science to bore girls with at parties")

If you have no real experience on your resume other than the BS, try talking to your college and/or CS department's job-placement people (and professors), they're often contacted by companies looking for people for true entry level jobs.

Keep an eye out for local job fairs, go to every one you possibly can. Give everyone your resume. Appear sincerely interested and ask lots of questions.

Honestly, you should've started looking at least 6 months ago. You might want to get some sort of job for the duration - doing anything is better than doing nothing (boss types view this as a sign of "good character" and a "solid work ethic"). Menial jobs are also a great way to get invited to parties (as long as you don't come off as some arrogant, over-educated prick that thinks they're superior to the plebes they're working with).
Since you're posting here, you're probably at least qualified to do some sort of basic tech/repair work. See if you can get yourself into a gig doing that, even if it's only temporary. The turnover on techs at places like CompUSA is generally fairly high.

If you see big lists of technology requirements for low/entry-level positions, don't pay much attention to them (but make sure to emphasize the ones you do have), nobody realistically expects proficiency in 10 different programming languages for a job that requires a year of experience.

Try looking into jobs with education and local government - since the pay is lower than in the private sector, there is often less competition and they can be a little less picky about how well you fit the requirements. Here's an example where I'm at right now and I can tell you they'd probably take anyone with a BS who knew some SQL, a programming language and Unix that wasn't a complete fucktard - it's not uncommon for ppl here to come in for a year or two and leave for a 50% pay increase (or more - only guy just left here a year after starting with a fresh AS degree, making $35k, for a gig that payed $90k).

Since you're just out of school, you might sill have some luck getting yourself an internship (most likely with a smaller company that doesn't have a 'serious' formal internship program, and is really just looking for a little cheap labor over the summer). You might even go so far as to cold-call a few interesting local firms and offer yourself up for the summer for shitty wages.

Have you checked out craigslist (hell, it's free. advertise yourself :D), local job sites or the state department of labor for your area? There's more to online job searching than Monster and Dice.

Talk to your friends from school (you did make some, right?) and see where they got off to - they might have some leads.


In the worst case, there's always grad school and/or the military.
 
I recently just graduated in January 2006 also; it was hard for me to find a job. What I did is applied at an agency like kimco staffing. They help me get a job at this company and I been working here for awhile, now they want to make me a permanent worker soon.
 
I have been programming for 10 years now. When I first got out of college, it took me a couple of months to find a job. The biggest problem is that companies advertise in papres jobs looking for the ideal or perfect person for the postion. If a person is qualified and/or had experience/knowledge in 1/2 to 2/3 of the areas, that person has a shot.

I have been responseable for interviewing people for positions for about 6 years now and I have seen a lot of people. There have been people that have matched all qualifications, but did not work out. And there have been others with less qualifications, but have worked out great. The difference between the two, is that one is willing to learn new things on the their own and continue to grow in the field. The person that feels they know it all get passed up by the technology very quickly and they are left asking 'Do you want fries with that?'.

As far as head hunters, they can be very helpful to a starting out person. They usually know or hear about jobs before they hit papers or publications. Also they look for a position for the person hard because they get paid by finding people for the positions.

Good luck in your search. Once you get something, it will be much easier to find something else afterward. You might want to even accept a 6 month contract position.

Keith
 
Thanks for all the replies.

1. I do not have any experience in the field as of yet.
2. I have given some thought as to where I want to be heading in terms of my future goals; but the problem is that they are too general. I know I love to code, especially when it's challenging or new.
3. In the meantime, I am working, but not in anything programming or computer related.

I will definitely look into gov't and education related jobs to at least get some experience under my belt.

Thanks again. If you have any more advice or criticisms, I would love to hear them.
 
Doesn't your college offer a job bank, or placement assistance?
 
I live in NJ and I can tell you that the North-East is littered with IT jobs. I have been working at the same company for 16 years now and I have seen technology go and come. One thing I can tell you is that MCSE, MCSD, MCP and all those other things sound nice, but you can be a good tester and pass the tests, plus you need to update your certification everytime that M$ releases a new O/S.

What I would do is join a Consultant firm like Accenture, Infosys or EDS. They will assess your skills and place you accordingly. We have a few Accenture and Infosys folks here and they actually cost us nothing because they are Jr and are basically taking on miniature projects for us, and learning the business at the same time.

Lots of Jobs in Parsippany, Morristown and of course NYC.

A BS in Comp Sci (which is what I have) has lots of weight, but these days one thing I do see a great demand for is Business Analysts.

PS: I'm teaching myself VB.NET right now. You dont need $18K ... just a "For Dummies" book then graduate to a Wrox book.

PSS: Where did you graduate from?

Good Luck!
 
I'm about to graduate in a year, and I'm curious, how much more is a Master's Degree worth then a BS? I'm double majored in Computational Mathematics and Computer Science, so my advisor told me I'd want grad school because they look for math oriented people for it. But at the same time I've heard people tell me it'll be hard to find a job, because they won't want to pay me more for my degree. Your thoughts?
 
Wingy said:
I'm about to graduate in a year, and I'm curious, how much more is a Master's Degree worth then a BS?
Click to expand...

Not much. Actual real world experience is worth much more than education. I know of several people( including myself ) that make way more than people with masters.

Keith
 
A masters degree = about 2 years.

It'd be worth going if you want a mathematical/research type career and can land yourself a research assistantship while in school (which means you need to pick a school where profs are actually doing research in a field that interests you)

Picking the right school is a lot trickier at this level than the undergrad - for a BS, you either go to a top-ranked school or somewhere else, the education is usually about the same. For an MS (and moreso a PhD), the difference in curricula is far, far greater - in some small subfields of research there may only be about 10 'important' people, if 2 of them are at one school, the school could be #180 in most public college rankings, but within that small world, it's the best place to be.
 
thanks again!
I graduated from Rutgers in NJ with a BS.

I'm still searching out some of the entry level type gov't and edu jobs as well as putting in my resumes with some of the temp agencies.

Thank you for all the advice, it is helping me tremendously :)
 
I just graduated a few weeks ago with a BS in computer science. I have gone the internship route. I got involved in my schools undergrad research program at the beggining of my senior year, and that led to some connections with NCDC National Climatic Data Center. I am an intern for the summer, but there is a good chance that I will get a permanant position when the internship ends. If nothing else the internship has seriously beefed up my resume. Instead of focusing on my education, I can throw in a lot more real world experience. An internship doesn't pay well, but it is money in the bank so to speak since you will be able to get a job out of it in the future.
 
Also try talking to your professors and former classmates. Your future employer will probably want references, and as a recent graduate with no industry experience, your professors will probably give the most relevant references.

Personally, I don't think that MCSD type certifications are worth the paper they're printed on. I would definitley not pay $18,000 for such a certification. Paying for a job placement also sounds like a terrible idea.

You may also be able to make some contacts through a temp. agency. They probably won't have too many programming positions up for temp work, but it could get your foot in the door as a maintenance tech or network guy.

Use caution if you choose to enter consulting. Consulting jobs will often involve long work hours and living in some distant city for long stretches. Don't take my word for it, though, I'm sure that those jobs have their upsides as well, but it seems like many people burn out after a few years.

[edit]
A quick look at setFocus's website turns up a lot of talk about their "Master's Program" and no mentions of academic accreditation (text "accredited" does not seem to appear on their site). If it's not accredited, it's not a real Master's Program, and I wouldn't pay more than $10 for an unaccredited Master's Degree.
 
First thing, go buy what color is your parachute. Don't think about it or read this and say I wonder what that book is. Go, buy it and read it. Read it again. They taught you a lot of things in college, but there was no course on finding a job. This book will help you.

Second, hit up your college for help. Are you fully using all of the resources they have? Your success only benefits them and most colleges have programs setup to help.

Focus on a job in an area that you like and look for companies that do things you're interested in. Go in and ask for an informational interview with the HR people. Then you can go in and ask them questions about the careers there and the company without putting pressure on them to hire you. A good HR department would love to do this for someone out of college.

Finally, volunteer. Go hit up every charity in your city and ask them if they need any IT help. Try to do something other than data entry, but this shows that you are reliable, have some experience in dealing with people, are not an ass and if you're willing to do a good job for someone who isn't paying you then you'll probably do well for them.

Finally, do up a portfolio of your work. Basically build a document that shows what you have done. It can be online or paper version. You can put in code shippets, etc. Other than that, get out and beat the streets. The book I mentioned will tell you how.

$18k for that short a period of time isn't really worth it to me. If you were someone with a non-technical degree it would be, but for you, you should be able to pick up the programming on your own.
 
A couple of other things came to mind and I hope some of them help you.

First, you know somebody who's professionally employed in the software field. Think about your cousins, aunts, old roommates, friends of the family, brother's old roommate, college friends, high school friends, etc. Odds are that at least one of those people works as a programmer or works closely with programmers (testing, documentation, support). That person knows other programmers (coworkers, former coworkers, and classmates), those programmers know other programmers.

Once you step out two or three steps socially (along a smart path), you should have a significant pool (10-100 people) of people who could help you.

Unfortunately, you don't know all of those people yet, so you need to fix that. Get introductions (for example, have your brother introduce you to Harry, a DBA at his company) and make conversation. Socialize normally (even we software nerds can do this) and mention that you're a recent grad looking for work.

If you follow your social network out (along a smart path), you'll soon meet somebody who can help you out.

Second, figure out what type of work you want to do (in a general sense). There are many types of programming groups and they focus on different things.

1. Software focused group (example companies: Microsoft, Oracle, Google). Programmers will make up a large part of its technical staff. Group makes most of its money on software.
2. Partial software group (example: any electronic hardware manufacturer). Programmers will make up a smaller part of its technical staff. Company sells hardware and software as a bundle (somebody programs all of those cellphones).
3. Support software group (example: insurance, manufacturing, and banking companies). Programmers will make up a small part of the total staff. Software group supports internal line-of-business applications. Company does not sell software.
4. Consulting group (example: Accenture, EDS). It's consulting, your company hires you out. As an entry-level person, you'll probably work on business support software (rather than products-as-sold).

The list above isn't comprehensive, many companies are a blend (IBM has all four of those groups) and there are jobs that straddle two categories or don't fit into any. Disregarding that, you should determine which of those categories sounds good to you.

Thirdly, determine what salary you want and with what terms. You may not get exactly what you want, but when you get an offer, you should have an idea of what you want and need. If somebody makes an offer that's less than what you want, you can make a counteroffer. They may not accept your counter (then you need to figure out if you want it or not) but it doesn't hurt to ask.

Fourth, take job requirements with a grain of salt. Sometimes a company throws every single technology they use into every job posting (as if every hire should be able to fill any position). In most cases, they want to hire somebody for a more specific position. A personal contact at the company should be able to tell you what that particular group really needs.
 
Great information here.

I got one quick question....

I sometimes find entry level jobs that list 1-3 years experience (but there is no clause on the type of experience) where-as other jobs will say entry level with 1 year of real world experience. If it is not listed as corporate or post-graduate experience, do they just mean school/self coding experience? Or is it always assumed post-grad experience?

Thanks
 
402blownstroker said:
Not much. Actual real world experience is worth much more than education. I know of several people( including myself ) that make way more than people with masters.

Keith
Click to expand...

+1 QFT
 
xhail said:
Great information here.

I got one quick question....

I sometimes find entry level jobs that list 1-3 years experience (but there is no clause on the type of experience) where-as other jobs will say entry level with 1 year of real world experience. If it is not listed as corporate or post-graduate experience, do they just mean school/self coding experience? Or is it always assumed post-grad experience?

Thanks
Click to expand...
I ignored that type of requirement, myself. Their job posting isn't any sort of contract on you, and it doesn't cost you much to send a resume ($1 + 30 minutes to write a cover letter). State your education and work experience succinctly (a job as a McDonald's cashier needs start/end dates and a one-sentence description). If they absolutely won't hire somebody with no paid programming experience, then they'll throw your application away. Write your resume honestly and you don't need to worry (don't lie, they'll probably discover that during the interview).

On the other hand, don't apply for a job with a title like "Senior Oracle DBA." You just graduated, so you're not "Senior" anything yet. Applying for that is just a waste of time.

Still, you're going to go meet your programmer contacts, right? In that case, ask them what the job really requires, then you'll know for sure.
 
morpheus6d9 said:
+1 QFT
Click to expand...
drifting off topic...

I just love how those lacking an education gloat about how they made it in in spite of lacking the education and somehow generalize that into a dismissal of a formal education. Personally, I'd rather be these guys than this guy.
 
ameoba said:
drifting off topic...

I just love how those lacking an education gloat about how they made it in in spite of lacking the education and somehow generalize that into a dismissal of a formal education. Personally, I'd rather be these guys than this guy.
Click to expand...
Fortunately, everyone can decide what they want to do with their own life and can do what they think will work for them--and can do it over, if it doesn't work out.
 
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