No physical volume on Dac and Amp, questions?

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Motzinator

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Ok, so ordered a Schiit Modi2 uber and realized that it nor my Parasound Z Amp have volume control knobs. So I assume Kernel Streaming or ASIO will play at full volume unless I have a pre amp between both devices, correct? Opinions on what I should do, would you get pre and bypass standard windows mixer?
 
I guess it depends on how many inputs you need but why not pick up a Schiit SYS Passive Preamp? You can control the volume in Windows when playing ASIO or WASAPI but I wouldn't recommend it personally, it's best to keep that maxed IMO.
 
|Tch0rT| said:
You can control the volume in Windows when playing ASIO or WASAPI but I wouldn't recommend it personally, it's best to keep that maxed IMO.
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You arent going to notice the difference unless you're using XP or earlier. Vista introduced a much-improved 32-bit audio stack.
 
for what it is worth I have that Schiit SYS device... it is pretty nice.. pretty small.. which can make it slightly hard to mess with the volume knob if you like myself have bigger fingers..but not too bad... and nice product.


the Emotiva one is pretty solid also from what I have seen.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
You arent going to notice the difference unless you're using XP or earlier. Vista introduced a much-improved 32-bit audio stack.
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The reason why I recommend it mostly has to do with keeping the signal to noise ratio maxed and IMO it's best to control volume through a hardware pre-amp since sometimes software can glitch.
 
Any level controller will work, you can use the kind designed for car audio without issue. Spending more just gets you something prettier.

I have an SM Nano Patch Plus.
 
|Tch0rT| said:
The reason why I recommend it mostly has to do with keeping the signal to noise ratio maxed and IMO it's best to control volume through a hardware pre-amp since sometimes software can glitch.
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Have you actually done some objective tests to figure out whether software volume adjustments actually decrease signal to noise ratio in an audible way? I use an Audioengine D3 with my work laptop. The thing is tiny (about the size of a USB thumb drive) and thus has no volume knob. So I just adjust it through Windows. It sounds good. It's different from my Objective 2 DAC/AMP, but not necessarily worse, just different (warmer sound, which I suppose could be considered worse since it's likely less accurate to the source).

Anyway...
Here is a brief document on it:
http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf

It seems a little iffy to me (ie they're looking at a very specific implementation, I'm not sure if this is universal), but I suppose it makes some sense. Side note, binary fractions are kind of annoying. I just now remembered how they're calculated lol.

That being said, apparently like DeathFromBelow said, Vista uses a different stack which shouldn't reduce resolution [as much?]. Here's a forum thread with some links
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-b...me-control-good-enough-still-need-preamp.html
Of which this is the one that is of interest I guess:
http://blog.szynalski.com/2009/11/17/an-audiophiles-look-at-the-audio-stack-in-windows-vista-and-7/

But that thread goes on to have some more people arguing. Hard to say. I just wonder if it's really audible. There's going to be an audible difference between preamp and windows control, mind you--a preamp isn't just a simple volume control afaik.
 
InternationalHat said:
Any level controller will work, you can use the kind designed for car audio without issue. Spending more just gets you something prettier.

I have an SM Nano Patch Plus.
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QFT, I use a SM Nano Patch Plus on my desktop. Love having a nice analog dial. :cool:

StoleMyOwnCar said:
Have you actually done some objective tests to figure out whether software volume adjustments actually decrease signal to noise ratio in an audible way?
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I recommend and do this for practical purposes not due to typical imagined audiophile exaggerated claims. When I ordered my JBL LSR305's I got the American Musical package with the SM Nano Patch Plus however they were shipped from different warehouses. I received my LSR305's first. I hooked them up with a 1/8" stereo TRS Y adapter to two mono 1/4" TRS from my onboard sound to the LSR305's and used Windows volume while I waited for the Nano Patch Plus. My LSR305's picked up noise from my motherboard that my previous speakers were not revealing enough to hear. The noise volume stayed the same regardless of the Windows volume control (this was extremely annoying to hear and impossible to get rid of in that circumstance without powering off the PC or the LSR305's and throwing money at the problem), the noise volume was dictated by the gain of the LSR305's amps. I eliminated the noise by using the optical out on my motherboard to a DAC that is then is converted to a balanced signal then out to my Nano Patch Plus to the LSR305's. If the source like a PC picks up noise you NEED to have the volume maxed on the source to overcome the noise or otherwise it's annoying as shit. That's an extreme example and less than ideal since shit shouldn't be picking up noise anyway. IMO this practice is just good form in a practical way not in a hyped up hyperbole subjective mumbo jumbo audiophile way like most crap in this hobby is peddled and I'm sure there's plenty of people who use Windows volume control perfectly fine without noise issues. Though another aspect is by using Windows volume or software volume is it can introduce unnecessary dithering that may or may not be audible (depending on the implementation of the dithering type, side note this subject is highly controversial on the JRiver forums) however that is piece of mind you don't have to worry about if the source is maxed.

StoleMyOwnCar said:
mind you--a preamp isn't just a simple volume control afaik.
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Well that really depends on the pre-amp but the passive ones are more or less a simple volume control (voltage attenuation).
 
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|Tch0rT| said:
I eliminated the noise by using the optical out on my motherboard to a DAC...
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I'm pretty confident that removing the electrical connection from PC to speakers is what eliminated the noise, not changing your volume-control strategy. Does the noise come back if you use digital attenuation with the DAC?
 
HammerSandwich said:
I'm pretty confident that removing the electrical connection from PC to speakers is what eliminated the noise, not changing your volume-control strategy. Does the noise come back if you use digital attenuation with the DAC?
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I didn't claim changing my volume control strategy eliminated the noise. Yes electronically isolating the PC from the DAC via toslink optical did eliminate the noise since it's impossible for the interference to travel over fiber optics and then going balanced afterwards adds another layer of protection. My point is with a pre-amp one can manage the noise by being able to adjust signal levels to overcome the noise (in the event the source like a PC picks up interference and passes it on) to a degree where-as using Windows volume control exclusively you're pretty much stuck with it until you can throw money at the problem to fix it. Another scenario is Windows or a program glitches the volume and suddenly you're sending a maxed out signal to the amped speakers and you inadvertently send your tweeters to the electric chair so to speak. There is 0 benefit for using the source's volume control as a master volume, there is only potential downsides and should be avoided unless it's your only choice.
 
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Motzinator said:
Ok, so ordered a Schiit Modi2 uber and realized that it nor my Parasound Z Amp have volume control knobs. So I assume Kernel Streaming or ASIO will play at full volume unless I have a pre amp between both devices, correct? Opinions on what I should do, would you get pre and bypass standard windows mixer?
Click to expand...

The volume control in Foobar2000 is high quality.
I use Foobar for both my DACs, one has its own volume (Oppo 105D), the other doesnt (Minimax Tube DAC plus).
 
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You will notice a drop in quality, defeats the point of having a good DAC.
Try to use the DAC direct from PC, its not so difficult, I've done it for years.
 
Nenu said:
The volume control in Foobar2000 is high quality.
I use Foobar for both my DACs, one has its own volume (Oppo 105D), the other doesnt (Minimax Tube DAC plus).
Click to expand...

I don't know about that... Foobar2000 is actually the first program where I noticed that there was a difference to the sound signature when switching volumes. It was actually very noticeable, because my T1's had (still somewhat do, though for some reason much diminished now) sibilance when paired with my O2 on some songs. I noticed when I turned down the Foobar sound, the sibilance would go away, and so would some other sounds. On the other hand, messing with the dac/amp's volume control did not make it go away, just quieter. Also, if you have the Windows Mixer open when you adjust Foobar's volume, you'll notice it just directly feeds into the volume displayed for Foobar there. Maybe I didn't have a setting checked somewhere.
 
StoleMyOwnCar said:
I don't know about that... Foobar2000 is actually the first program where I noticed that there was a difference to the sound signature when switching volumes. It was actually very noticeable, because my T1's had (still somewhat do, though for some reason much diminished now) sibilance when paired with my O2 on some songs. I noticed when I turned down the Foobar sound, the sibilance would go away, and so would some other sounds. On the other hand, messing with the dac/amp's volume control did not make it go away, just quieter. Also, if you have the Windows Mixer open when you adjust Foobar's volume, you'll notice it just directly feeds into the volume displayed for Foobar there. Maybe I didn't have a setting checked somewhere.
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Install WASAPI in exclusive mode to use only Foobars volume control.
Otherwise it is still being fed through the Windows audio stack and you are not getting the best from your DAC.

Once WASAPI is working properly, the Windows volume control will have no effect.
 
Thats it.
It overrides the Windows audio system so is all you need.
 
Are you 100% if I install WASAPI in exclusive mode, the foobar volume will be adjustable and what about other programs like games. I rather not blow my speakers to hell. The volume pot I got probably wont hurt sound quality that much, its a passive device.
 
While you are using Foobar it will block Windows sounds.
It completely takes over the audio system and only uses the Foobar volume control.

So if Foobar is playing music and you run a game, you will either get the game loading and no game sound or the game will give an error because it doesnt have access to the audio interface.

If anything its easier to not blow your speakers because the Windows volume is used when not playing music and Foobar is used when playing music.
Setting the volume for one doesnt interfere with the other, it will be how you left it.

Try it at low volume and see how you get on.
 
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