New build for Lightroom and Photoshop ....

[vidoprof]

After reading through this forum and WOW thanks for the advice in there http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1769231

Current build:
Q9300 @ 2.5, Silencer 750 Black PS (4yrs old), 8Gb G Skill Ram 4x2gb, ATI Radeon 2600 PRO, Antec Gigabyte DS3P MB,


1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Photoshop CS6, Lightroom 4/5 and MAYBE LIGHT video work (not into it yet, but may start)
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
$1100.00. Tax and shipping need to be included in the budget.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.
US, Florida

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
CPU, mobo, RAM( 8-16 gigs, I have some G Skill 2x2GB sticks already but know more is better here), GPU, Case, SSD HDDs, DVD burner, Internal CF card reader, Cooling (air or water?)

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
I have a keyboard and mouse, and Monitors.
I also have (2) 4TB HDs that are going to be used for my photos (Raid 1).
I have a DROBO unit with 6TB of data backup that backs up the Raid 1 drive
(2) 4TB external drives that get swapped offsite for additional data backup redundancy that backup the DROBO.
(1) Rocketfish USB 3.0 PCI Express Card (possibly if needed)
(1) SB Audigy
(1) ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO (if possible)


6) Will you be overclocking?
No - UNLESS it doesn't stress the system I want reliability, but willing to go a little overclock if there is NOT MUCH chance of failure.

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?
(1) LG 27" 1920x1080.
(1) LG 24" 1920x1200

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
1-2 weeks or as soon as I can gather all the info on what to buy

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? UEFI? etc.
I would love the fastest (within budget) specs possible, so Sata 6.0Gb/s, Raid 1 for data, MAYBE Raid 0 for OS, USB 3.0, Would love to record podcasts for later viewing when they are LIVE online (like Photoshop User TV, etc).

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If so, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
Yes Win 7 64 bit

So CAN I upgrade what I have or Do I do a total rebuild???

 

[tiraides]

For best performance, a system rebuild is highly recommended. For now, I'll use a variant of what I proposed in the other Photoshop/Lightroom thread:

$200 - Intel Core i5-4570
$79 - MSI B85-G41 PC Mate
$105 - Corsair Value Select 2x8GB DDR3 1333
$100 - EVGA GeForce GTX 650 1GB video card
$169 - Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD (primary/OS)
$94 - Samsung 840 Series 120GB SSD (swap disk)
$35 - NZXT Aperture M
$16 - Samsung SH-224DB/RSBS SATA DVD burner
$67 - Corsair CX600 600W PSU
$43 - NZXT Source 210 Elite
$124 - Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OEM
=====
$1002 - Subtotal (not including shipping, taxes, or rebates)

If you can afford to, you may want to consider the Intel Core i7-4770 instead of the i5-4570. The i7-4770's Hyper Threading support may help you if you use commercial video editing software (e.g. Adobe Premiere Pro, not Adobe Premiere Elements)

Which specific (brand/model) hard drives are you using for this build?

 

[vidoprof]

Tiraides,

For the extra $100 I would spring for the 4770 for sure (I saw that in another post and for $300 for that CPU I would do it). Can I use the same MB though? Does it have enough Sata ports and RAID onboard?

I might spring ANOTHER $100 for another 16gb of RAM too (not sure if that is the best use though).

I already have WIN 7 so I can save that $125 there.

I bought the Hitachi HGST Deskstar Coolspin 4TB Internal SATA Desktop Hards.

Could I USE the 4GB of RAM ( I mean it's just sitting here doing nothing) or is that a big no no?

 

[Dangman]

For the extra $100 I would spring for the 4770 for sure (I saw that in another post and for $300 for that CPU I would do it). Can I use the same MB though? Does it have enough Sata ports and RAID onboard?

If you want onboard RAID, you'd have to spend the extra $8 for this mobo:
$87 - MSI H87M-G43 Intel H87 mATX Motherboard

I might spring ANOTHER $100 for another 16gb of RAM too (not sure if that is the best use though).

More RAM certainly won't hurt.

Could I USE the 4GB of RAM ( I mean it's just sitting here doing nothing) or is that a big no no?

What's the exact model number of that RAM? With that said, if you're perfectly fine with 20GB of RAM rather than max of 32GB of RAM for that system, you can use that 4GB of RAM if it's a good model.

 

[tiraides]

For the extra $100 I would spring for the 4770 for sure (I saw that in another post and for $300 for that CPU I would do it). Can I use the same MB though? Does it have enough Sata ports and RAID onboard?

I might spring ANOTHER $100 for another 16gb of RAM too (not sure if that is the best use though).

If you have to choose one or the other, I recommend doubling the amount of RAM. You'll gain a more noticeable benefit from that over "upgrading" the processor to the i7-4770. I mentioned the i7-4770 being beneficial for video editing, but the benefits are not as noticeable in Photoshop or Lightroom.

I already have WIN 7 so I can save that $125 there.

Which version? Have you already activated it?

I bought the Hitachi HGST Deskstar Coolspin 4TB Internal SATA Desktop Hards.

Do you mean this drive?

Could I USE the 4GB of RAM ( I mean it's just sitting here doing nothing) or is that a big no no?

I believe that you should go for 16GB more RAM versus 4GB.

 

[vidoprof]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/835055-REG/Hitachi_0S03359_4TB_Internal_Hard_Drive.html
That's the 4TB HDs.

I would probably opt for the $100 for the additional 16gb. Does this system max out at 32GB ram? I guess it would be a while before I need to upgrade that and by then it would be another full system upgrade I would imagine (as the Q9300 lasted 3+ years now).

For the $200 I would do both the RAM AND the CPU, as I think for video (if i get into it) it would really benefit.

I would want to RAID 1 those 4 TB drives so yeah I would want onboard RAID.

Would that PSU be fine or should I get a 750W?

Would I want to get some liquid cooling for the CPU (is a modest overclock going to ruin reliability)? What about some additional fans to keep the HDs cool to help with lower heat to help mitigate failures?

Would a LARGE tower (if I spent another $100+) going to help with cooling?

Thanks so much for all the help.

Ryan G

 

[tiraides]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/835055-REG/Hitachi_0S03359_4TB_Internal_Hard_Drive.html
That's the 4TB HDs.

It's the same drive as in my earlier link. I'll have to conduct some research on its performance.

I would probably opt for the $100 for the additional 16gb. Does this system max out at 32GB ram? I guess it would be a while before I need to upgrade that and by then it would be another full system upgrade I would imagine (as the Q9300 lasted 3+ years now).

I would want to RAID 1 those 4 TB drives so yeah I would want onboard RAID.

Go with Danny's choice in the MSI H87M-P43. It maxes out at 32GB of RAM, but that's more than enough for your needs.

For the $200 I would do both the RAM AND the CPU, as I think for video (if i get into it) it would really benefit.

I recommend the processor upgrade only if you're serious about your video editing. The i5-4570 would provide a noticeable improvement on its own versus the Q9300 you're currently using.

Would that PSU be fine or should I get a 750W?

The CX600 should be fine. You're not overclocking nor are you using a powerful video card that could tax it.

But if you want the peace of mind that comes from a good 750 watt power supply:

$100 - Antec HCG-750 750W PSU
$106 - Corsair TX750 750W PSU

Would I want to get some liquid cooling for the CPU (is a modest overclock going to ruin reliability)? What about some additional fans to keep the HDs cool to help with lower heat to help mitigate failures?

You can't overclock with the motherboard and processor I've chosen. Given the increased costs from an overclocking-friendly setup (including a good yet inexpensive CPU cooler), I decided not to bust your budget.

Would a LARGE tower (if I spent another $100+) going to help with cooling?

No. Three additional 120mm fans (two for the front intake and one for the side intake) are all you need to improve your case's cooling capabilities.

A larger case in general gives you more space for additional hard drives.

Please answer my earlier question about your copy of Windows.

 

[vidoprof]

Hey Tiraides,

Thanks so much for all your help. That really makes a lot of sense and gives me an idea of what I can and can't do.

About Windows 7. New copy not activated yet (I hate Windows 8 so not going that route)

Question about overclocking. With these processors I noticed that it's 3.2Ghz but it can overclock to 4.3 on air. Does it benefit me to get an overclocking friendly setup cause that's a HUGE boost in performance? For an extra $200 additional would that get me another 500Mhz+ (and is that worth it?)


Thanks so much again
Ryan G

 

[Cerulean]

You don't need water cooling.
You don't need RAID0.
Minimum of ~256GB SSD for OS drive + scratchdisk (same physical disk).

I speak from experience. See my specs. (EDIT: hah, my specs outdated. The only HDDs that I have are five WD Enterprise 2TB 7200 in a RAID6 under an LSI 9260-8i, one 128GB Crucial SSD, a 1250W Corsair modular PSU, and a huge ultra tower Cooler Master Cosmos chassis without the PFB1212UHE's [have yet to install them]). 8GB of RAM will be enough for your Photoshop and Lightroom. If you do panoramas, maor RAM the better.)

Avoid getting a handful of HDDs and running them as separate HDDs.
Avoid putting those handful of HDDs in the same chassis.
Avoid anything that isn't an Enterprise/NAS-grade HDD for magnetic spindle-based disks if you really care about data reliability. Green/consumer-grade drives sux, especially after you lose weeks worth of unpublished photos on multiple harddrive failures over the course of a year. Get like one 4TB WD Enterprise disk and call it a day in that sector; however, this might push your budget as they are very expensive. Perhaps you could use a WD Red drive.

 

[vidoprof]

Cerulean:

I already have the (2) 4TB Drives so I will make them into a RAID 1 so I have a direct copy of my drive in case one fails (no point no doing that since I already have the drives).

8GB of RAM is what I have now and I am currently running slow on PS Stuff so 16 and even 32 will probably be the route I take (I do work on large files).

I don't have a ton of individual drives just the OS drive (which will be a SSD) and the (2) 4TB drives for data (I may get another SSD for a scratch disc though).

They WILL be all in the same Chassis though.

 

[tiraides]

You don't need water cooling.
You don't need RAID0.
Minimum of ~256GB SSD for OS drive + scratchdisk (same physical disk).

I speak from experience. See my specs. (EDIT: hah, my specs outdated. The only HDDs that I have are five WD Enterprise 2TB 7200 in a RAID6 under an LSI 9260-8i, one 128GB Crucial SSD, a 1250W Corsair modular PSU, and a huge ultra tower Cooler Master Cosmos chassis without the PFB1212UHE's [have yet to install them]). 8GB of RAM will be enough for your Photoshop and Lightroom. If you do panoramas, maor RAM the better.)

Someone disagrees with you. Read staticlag's earlier comments and tell us why he'd lie to us.

Avoid getting a handful of HDDs and running them as separate HDDs.
Avoid putting those handful of HDDs in the same chassis.
Avoid anything that isn't an Enterprise/NAS-grade HDD for magnetic spindle-based disks if you really care about data reliability. Green/consumer-grade drives sux, especially after you lose weeks worth of unpublished photos on multiple harddrive failures over the course of a year. Get like one 4TB WD Enterprise disk and call it a day in that sector; however, this might push your budget as they are very expensive. Perhaps you could use a WD Red drive.

Not that anyone here disagrees with you, but why do you think that we don't know anything about the need for a proper backup plan?

 

[Cerulean]

Someone disagrees with you. Read staticlag's earlier comments and tell us why he'd lie to us.

I read those posts, and I agree with them. I also never said anybody lied, geez. You guys are fierce and extreme.

However, in regards to staticlag's comments, I still observed latency even on my RAID6 which I know via benchmarks significantly outperforms just a single Green drive (what I used to have). I did not experience latency issues though if I rendered a 1:1 and thumbnail preview for all images, but this part took some time as part of the trade of. So, even on my RAID6 I observed this until I rendered 1:1s. I did notice a SIGNIFICANT improvement in performance when going from Lightroom 4.1 to Lightroom 5 (still on my RAID6), but would not be able to share any first hand experience using a single Green drive on Lightroom 5 (as I upgraded my storage system pre-LR5 update).

Not that anyone here disagrees with you, but why do you think that we don't know anything about the need for a proper backup plan?

Did not read thread. Nobody is you, tiraides. There are many people that come through [H] with little to no experience asking for advice, and I'm not going to assume what you do or don't know because I don't know you and I'm not you (and did not read thread!). If I have anything more to say, it would be that your attitude is a little on the fierce and prejudice side, but whatever I don't care. Good luck videoprof/OP with your build!

 

[vidoprof]

I think we can all play nice.

Thanks for the kind words, and I took your words like anyone else that I ask advice from I do some of my own research after reading them and then make a decision based on what I found out as well. If I find conflicting information I reask in a different manner or ask more educated questions.

I on one hand won't be just using ONE big disk, as I think that it causes a situation where I am not AS Safe, but I appreciate your comments.


NOW: Onto overclocking the 4770.. IF I understand this right the chip runs at 3.5 and then under light load goes to 3.9 and under FULL load goes to 3.7 (so I read online). IF I overclock, what would be a safe bet on AIR with a nice cooler? SAY for arguement purposes it's 4.0Ghz, is it a CONSTANT 4.0 or does it fluctuate? Is 4.0, 4.2 or more obtainable easily without worry of failure?

Thank you all for all the comments and help. I really appreciate it.

Ryan G

 

[tiraides]

NOW: Onto overclocking the 4770.. IF I understand this right the chip runs at 3.5 and then under light load goes to 3.9 and under FULL load goes to 3.7 (so I read online). IF I overclock, what would be a safe bet on AIR with a nice cooler? SAY for arguement purposes it's 4.0Ghz, is it a CONSTANT 4.0 or does it fluctuate? Is 4.0, 4.2 or more obtainable easily without worry of failure?

You won't be able to overclock with the board and processor that Danny Bui and I recommended earlier.

You'll need the i7-4770K (the K indicates an unlocked CPU multiplier, which Intel uses for overclocking purposes) and a Z87 motherboard like the Asus Z87-A. You can obtain a decent overclock (of around 4.2GHz, if not higher, depending on the motherboard used and the capabilities of the specific processor) with the above and a decent air CPU cooler like the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO.

But if you want to push your overclocking as high as possible, you should consider a more expensive motherboard that has better overclocking features (one example: MSI Z87 MPOWER) and a better CPU cooler like the Corsair H80i. (Caveat: I'm not a serious overclocker myself, so I don't know the "best bang for your buck" OC-friendly parts. Consider everything I mentioned earlier as examples, not recommendations.)

Your mileage may vary when overclocking. Even if you have the best overclocking setup money could buy, no two i7-4770K processors can reach the same top speeds.

 

[vidoprof]

thanks for the information AGAIN Tiraides...

So for an additional $100 or so I can get another good 20% out of the other processor, sounds worth it to me.

So IF I overclock does that make the processor run at the overclocked speed FULL TIME or does it "throttle" up and down based on load (just like if it wasn't overclocked)?

A 4.2Ghz overclock is great by me. I don't want to get into Liquid cooling as that would raise the costs I would think (but not sure), and are there any other caveats to liquid cooling? I just don't want to deal with the reliability issues and anything that could be a headache... I rather NOT overclock really unless it's pretty easy and doesn't REALLY affect reliability too much.

Thanks
Ryan G

 

[tiraides]

There are plenty of guides, both here at HardForum and elsewhere online, that can show you how to overclock properly. (Yes, that means a consistent, steady overclock.) Whether or not you should overclock ultimately comes down to your personal comfort level.

Keep in mind that there is a huge price premium when it comes to overclocker-friendly parts. That's because we oftentimes recommend parts that are designed with overclocking in mind rather than go for the cheapest parts capable of getting the job done. For example:

$287 - i5-4570 and MSI H87M-G43 (Amazon prices, purchased separately)
$340 - i5-4670K and Asus Z87-A combo deal ($50 more, gain overclocking capabilities)
$440 - i7-4770K and Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD4H combo deal ($150 more, gain Hyper Threading support plus better board for overclocking)
$485 - i7-4770K and MSI Z87 MPOWER combo deal ($200 more, much better board for overclocking, but recommended only for obtaining highest possible CPU overclock)

All of the above Z87 boards are capable of overclocking the processor to around 4GHz easily, but there are other factors involved in obtaining higher, stable overclocks.

Liquid CPU coolers like the Corsair H80i have self-contained water loops designed for ease of use and no required (user) maintenance. Just follow the instructions and you'll be fine. I recommended the H80i because many people have used it for their overclocking efforts.

 

[staticlag]

My photography has dropped off a bit since I will be attending school again this Fall. But lately I have been using this for Lightroom:

1) 2600k @ 3.8
2) 16GB DDR3 1600mHz - CAS7
3) 4x 300GB 10k RPM velociraptors in RAID0 as photo pool (and a few games installed )
4) 50TB NAS in RAIDz2 for main backup (and movies)
5) 20TB NAS in JBOD for secondary backup
6) Several 2TB drives for final edits (typically 7MB files, around 300 per shoot)
7) OCZ SSD for OS (circa 09 I think?)

So I import my photos from my CF cards and dump them both onto my RAID0 pool and my primary backup nas. Since I have lots of storage and make backups it doesn't really bother me if my working pool should fail, that just means I replace the old pool and have lunch/dinner while its transferring. Lightroom tracks edits on it's catalog which I have on a Samsung 840 SSD and back-ed up to my Primary NAS, so nothing is lost if any one system thing should fail.

I still keep the originals on their CF cards until I sort and throw out all the poorly exposed photos or ones where people are out of focus or blinking. Then after I have selected my semi-good copies (usually 600ish) I transfer them to my secondary JBOD nas for safekeeping. I then finish up with airbrushing the ladies and blotting out pimples and what-not and have around 300 final prints for the customer. I downsize them to 8x10 and write them to a random drive I have that is free (usually older 1-2TB models I have used in the past for primary NAS).

From there I still have at least 2 copies of every pic taken (even poor ones), 3 copies of selects, and at least 4 copies of final print quality ones.

I upload my prints to adorama (pro metallic is my paper of choice), they deliver them to me, I error check one last time and put them in a album. I sign said album and deliver to customer. If they pay my full package price or don't haggle with me I usually throw in DVDs with the 8x10 sized final prints on them.(customers rarely know what to do with a 25MB .DNG file in Adobe 1998 colorspace )

Then after I deliver them to customer I delete the main photos from my RAID0 and my primary NAS (which still leaves me with two copies on my JBOD and floating drives).

So with my setup I can browse nearly instantly. Sure you don't need the overkill of a 4 drive RAID0, but if you have a lot of photos to go though, that second or two pause can eventually add up to 30 minutes wasted per day on simply waiting for a photo.

 

[staticlag]

Yeah so that pic I linked.

Shows how pointless a monitor calibration system is for most photographers.

sRGB is your normal monitor.

If you buy a special high priced pro art monitor it will do mostly Adobe 1998. (usually starts at $600 for a 24")

If you buy an ultra expensive art monitor you can get close to ProPhoto ($$$$$)

yeah and it turns out the Retina display on the Macs is just smoke and mirror crap(like most of their stuff) when you calibrate it its barely above sRGB, it's just got a nice dynamic ratio that tends to impress the newbs.

Yeah so the kicker is that with the best 12+ color ink printers you can only print that blue area called "Machine CMYK"

I have a Adobe 1998 monitor, and it does look amazing, it makes normal pictures so much more vibrant and lifelike. But the thing is that I can't share them with anyone because no-one else can view them without a similar monitor, and I sure as hell can't print them out because no printer can come close to matching the color gamut.

So there it sits.

 

[techbob]

And do NOT get a "k" processor if you intend to run virtual machines. For many of us the running vm's is more important that OC'ing.