New and looking for some advice

[Deleted member 289973]

A GTX 970 will run games on medium without AA (since 4K is so dense, you won't need AA).

I'm assuming medium on 4K/60fps? I see the 980 Ti would be about a $300 upgrade, what kind of performance increase would I be looking at? And would it fit in the silverstone milo or raven cases earlier suggested? I see a GTX 970 for about $260 on sale.. so if I'm not sacrificing much, that's an easy buy.

 

[thehack]

I'm assuming medium on 4K/60fps? I see the 980 Ti would be about a $300 upgrade, what kind of performance increase would I be looking at? And would it fit in the silverstone milo or raven cases earlier suggested? I see a GTX 970 for about $260 on sale.. so if I'm not sacrificing much, that's an easy buy.

It'll fit. The GTX 980TI is about 40-50% faster than a GTX 970. So you're looking at medium-high at 4k/60fps. Do note that those medium/high description are completely arbitrary based on the game.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

As you alluded to, 4k gaming will depend entirely on what games you play. Don't expect to play GTA5, Arkham Knight, Rise of the Tomb Raider, The Division, etc., at 4k on the 970, or on higher settings with the 980ti. However, the GTX 970 is just fine for 4k gaming for older titles. I have an EVGA GTX 970 SSC, and here's where I stand with the games I'm playing or have played over the past month.

World of Warcraft - 4k, maxed out in game settings, CSAA, Adaptive vsync, MOSTLY 60fps, occasional dips in some areas. I don't raid.
Diablo 3 - 4k, maxed out settings (no AA), vsyncon, locked 60fps aside from occasional network stutter
Heroes of the Storm - same as Diablo 3
NFS Rivals - 4k, maxed out settings (HBAO on, no AA), 30fps locked (I don't use the 60 fps hack)
Fable Anniversary - 4k, maxed settings, no AA, vsync on, locked 60fps
Valkyria Chronicles - 4k, maxed settings, no AA, vsync on, locked 60fps
South Park the Stick of Truth - 4k, maxed settings, vsync on, locked 30fps (max allowable)
Sonic Racing Transformed - 4k, maxed settings, no AA, vsync on, locked 60fps
Lego Marvel Superheroes - 4k, maxed settings, Edge AA on, vsync on, locked 60fps
Tomb Raider (2013) - 1080p, maxed settings (TressFX off), FXAA, vsync on, locked 60fps (Tried 4k, had to use medium settings for nearly locked 60fps)

The GTX 970 should let you max out older titles at 4k, low/medium on newer games. The 980ti would let you bump that medium/high. I don't think it's worth the extra $300-$350 for the 1-2 level setting bump if you're targeting 4k. Maybe the 970 now, and big Pascal/Polaris in 6-9 months?

This guy over on the video card forum gave me some good insight on 4K for older games, being able to max them out or close. Since I don't really play new games (yet), I'd be satisfied with medium settings and I could always upgrade once I have some extra cash. Will the 970 get me close to maxed out on 1080p on newer games?

 

[thehack]

Yes, he is correct, that is why i said "medium, high" is arbitrary. What is one game's medium is another game ultra. To answer your question, yes, and no. It's not that quite simple to max it out, since maxing is completely arbitrary. There are quite a lot of 'useless' settings and other settings that are very taxing on the GPU resources. But in short, 970 will allow you to run with 90% of options on at 1080/60fps. Certain settings, such as extreme tessellation (nVidia is notorious for running x64 tessalation when there is little to no gain in image quality, or fallout4's god rays), will tank your FPS. Certain anti-alias options are effectively running the game at higher resolutions and then composing the image. But if you smartly choose your settings, you'll find that the GTX 970 is more than viable. It is one of the most popular video card for a reason.

 

[Daniel_Chang]

Yes, he is correct, that is why i said "medium, high" is arbitrary. What is one game's medium is another game ultra. To answer your question, yes, and no. It's not that quite simple to max it out, since maxing is completely arbitrary. There are quite a lot of 'useless' settings and other settings that are very taxing on the GPU resources. But in short, 970 will allow you to run with 90% of options on at 1080/60fps. Certain settings, such as extreme tessellation (nVidia is notorious for running x64 tessalation when there is little to no gain in image quality, or fallout4's god rays), will tank your FPS. Certain anti-alias options are effectively running the game at higher resolutions and then composing the image. But if you smartly choose your settings, you'll find that the GTX 970 is more than viable. It is one of the most popular video card for a reason.

In the games that I listed, "maxed out" meant every option on/max except where indicated (AA for most games, TressFX for TR 2013). In the other thread, he stated that the most modern/demanding game that he plays is Skyrim (which can still be a beast with certain mods, but I didn't get that impression from him). I think a GTX 970 is fine, if not a little overkill for his needs. It's all about what games you're playing.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I don't wanna downgrade from the 970 because if I decide to buy some more current games, I don't want to struggle with them and be able to play only old games in high quality. That said, I definitely heed your recommendations that anything above a 970 is definitely overkill and unnecessary. I'm gonna order that sucker today so I still get the 60 bucks off
The Heroes and Generals game is probably actually a little more demanding than Skyrim, now that I think about it, at the highest settings. But I play this much less often so it's primarily Skyrim that I need the performance for. Now that I've chosen to stick with the 970, I'll work on choosing the remaining parts and try to get everything ordered by the end of the day. Thanks everyone for your support, I appreciate it a lot!

 

[Zap]

Yes, he is correct, that is why i said "medium, high" is arbitrary. What is one game's medium is another game ultra.

You can also say "gamer" instead of "game." Some people obsess about the most minor frame-rate stutter, while others may not notice at all.

Now that I've chosen to stick with the 970, I'll work on choosing the remaining parts and try to get everything ordered by the end of the day. Thanks everyone for your support, I appreciate it a lot!

Remember to post results. We love to help, in exchange for living our next build vicariously through those we help.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Definitely I will.
As for case, I'm leaning toward the cooler master. The Milo and Raven cases look pretty cool, but it seems that airflow would be more limited, and also space should I choose to add more parts or upgrade down the road.
The PNY card is out of stock on newegg and quite a bit more pricey on Amazon. Would you all recommend the EVGA? It's got a 10% off promotion running right now plus a $10 mail-in rebate, and a free game. This sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[thehack]

Definitely I will.
As for case, I'm leaning toward the cooler master. The Milo and Raven cases look pretty cool, but it seems that airflow would be more limited, and also space should I choose to add more parts or upgrade down the road.
The PNY card is out of stock on newegg and quite a bit more pricey on Amazon. Would you all recommend the EVGA? It's got a 10% off promotion running right now plus a $10 mail-in rebate, and a free game. This sounds like a good deal to me.

The cooler Master has the worst air flow of all of them. The Silverstone are better.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Any particular difference between the two Silverstone? I'm leaning more towards the Milo - it looks better on a horizontal layout, and I personally would dislike the red/amber light on the Raven unit. Would I need to buy any cooling units for either one?

 

[thehack]

Any particular difference between the two Silverstone? I'm leaning more towards the Milo - it looks better on a horizontal layout, and I personally would dislike the red/amber light on the Raven unit. Would I need to buy any cooling units for either one?

I got the ML08 myself. It is highly recommended you get a good cpu cooler like the Ar06 or big shuriken 2. But that is all you need. The layouts are the same between the ml version and the raven version. You can go for filtered or window version. Filter you have less maintenance while the windowed version breathes a little better. I went with filtered version. I have built an elite 130 as well. It is not bad but I didn't find the air flow particularly good. The ml08 pulls cool air directly. The Rvz01/ml07 has a bit better cooling capacity since you can install case fans as well to overcome the impedance from the filters.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I've looked a bit at the ML08 and ML07. Going by look, I'd probably prefer the ML07, despite being slightly larger. And from what I see, the ML08 does not come with a window version, only the RVZ02 has that option. Would I need a CPU cooler in the ML07? Or would a case fan or two be sufficient?

The reason I am inclined towards the cooler master is that it comes with two fans included, supports liquid cooling (the ML07 does too but the 08 does not, as I've heard), and can support a full sized PSU and optical drive. The ML07 and 08 would require a slim slot load optical drive, should I choose to put on in down the road. It's also just over half the cost of the ML07/08 and seems to have better reviews. I'm just unsure what to get because I want to make sure my system can stay cool and fairly quiet without having to put much extra money towards cooling components.

 

[thehack]

I assure you the elite 130 is worse at cooling. The Silverstone solutions intake fresh air and exhaust directly outside the case. The included fans don't meant the case is better designed, and the rvz01 includes fans to get you started, and rvz02 do not need any fans. In the elite 130, the gpu ends up pulling cool air but dumping it all inside the case. There is only one effective exhaust which is above the cpu in the rear. The psu sits on top of it, restricting exhaust.

Scientifically the less fans you have the less noise you make. Provide fresh cool air to the components and then exhaust the air so that it isn't recycled is the best solution. The rvz01 and rvz02 (and their brothers) do this splendidly. You can also find that Dan A4SFX custom case on this forum follows the same principle.

I recommend you stop by silentpcreview and check their findings on the two case. The rvz02 is a lot easier to build in while the rvz01 has more capacity, it takes more effort.

For rvz02 you need a good cpu cooler. The stock Intel cooler isnt very good so it is best to replace it anyway. Rvz01 comes with two fans. I recommend buying a 3rd low profile fan. It is fairly quiet out the box but you can upgrade it to your needs. However ML07 does not come with any stock fans, so you will need 3 fans.

If quietness is a big factor you will have to pay the price. Either in using good quality fans or going with a bigger case. The define s nano is coming out next month, while it is twice the size of the rvz02, it is a more silent.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of either of the Raven cases as they don't seem to perform well when lying horizontally. I might end up looking at a different setup with a case that allows great performance and airflow in a shoebox form factor or horizontal layout. It's turning out to be quite more difficult to choose a case and layout than I thought. I was looking at the Lian-Li PC-Q10 but I'd need to make sure it fits on my entertainment system shelf. It's also quite a bit more expensive.

 

[thehack]

Unfortunately I'm not a big fan of either of the Raven cases as they don't seem to perform well when lying horizontally. I might end up looking at a different setup with a case that allows great performance and airflow in a shoebox form factor or horizontal layout. It's turning out to be quite more difficult to choose a case and layout than I thought. I was looking at the Lian-Li PC-Q10 but I'd need to make sure it fits on my entertainment system shelf. It's also quite a bit more expensive.

That is because they are using the built in rubber feet. It needs to be raised about an inch.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I understand. I've actually looked into some larger cases that are micro-ATX sized in a horizontal HTPC layout, and many I've seen still support a mini-ITX board. A positive air pressure case seems to be a good option for me. I've also considered getting this GPU - for $50-60 extra, the liquid cooling will keep the temp way down. But in a bigger case, maybe I wouldn't have as much airflow trouble that a mini-ITX case would have. For me right now, the deciding factor is finding a case that fits, then has good airflow or water cooling options, then I just make sure the GPU(s) I've considered will fit. Then I'll order everything
I realize I'm probably going to go over budget with this build, but when I originally said $1000 it was a rough estimate. I just don't wanna blow way past it, i.e. build a $1400 computer.

 

[thehack]

I understand. I've actually looked into some larger cases that are micro-ATX sized in a horizontal HTPC layout, and many I've seen still support a mini-ITX board. A positive air pressure case seems to be a good option for me. I've also considered getting this GPU - for $50-60 extra, the liquid cooling will keep the temp way down. But in a bigger case, maybe I wouldn't have as much airflow trouble that a mini-ITX case would have. For me right now, the deciding factor is finding a case that fits, then has good airflow or water cooling options, then I just make sure the GPU(s) I've considered will fit. Then I'll order everything
I realize I'm probably going to go over budget with this build, but when I originally said $1000 it was a rough estimate. I just don't wanna blow way past it, i.e. build a $1400 computer.

I feel like you are a bit paranoid, the rvz01 and rvz02 are very well designed air flow case. If you checked the silentpcreview you would notice they met the classification of being a fairly silent pc while being small and accommodating a full sized gpu. Your next choice would be the Silverstone entertainment boxes, or fractal design 304. Water cooling will increase the size requirements though.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I am a bit paranoid But I just want to make sure and double check that everything I get will work properly, it's hard not to be a little paranoid when you're building a system for the first time and spending a good amount of money on it. I did read the reviews, and yes, I remember they rated quiet, but I'm concerned about the GPU temps. Additionally, I just wasn't a big fan of the look of them.
Keep in mind I'm no expert, so I'm not sure if 80-85 degrees C for a GPU is pretty high or if it's normal and okay. The water-cooled GTX 970 kept temps in the 30s and 40s C, which is why I looked into it.

I've looked at the node 304 and also the Silverstone GD05B. The 304 supports a single fan water cooler (which I'd use for the GPU) and controllable fans, which I especially like the idea of. The GD05B has a slot for an optical drive if I wanted to add Blu-ray later on (I could just get an external one though), and more space. I could easily go with an air powered CPU cooler. I'm leaning toward the node 304, and it also had an excellent review on silentpcreview.

 

[thehack]

I am a bit paranoid But I just want to make sure and double check that everything I get will work properly, it's hard not to be a little paranoid when you're building a system for the first time and spending a good amount of money on it. I did read the reviews, and yes, I remember they rated quiet, but I'm concerned about the GPU temps. Additionally, I just wasn't a big fan of the look of them.
Keep in mind I'm no expert, so I'm not sure if 80-85 degrees C for a GPU is pretty high or if it's normal and okay. The water-cooled GTX 970 kept temps in the 30s and 40s C, which is why I looked into it.

I've looked at the node 304 and also the Silverstone GD05B. The 304 supports a single fan water cooler (which I'd use for the GPU) and controllable fans, which I especially like the idea of. The GD05B has a slot for an optical drive if I wanted to add Blu-ray later on (I could just get an external one though), and more space. I could easily go with an air powered CPU cooler. I'm leaning toward the node 304, and it also had an excellent review on silentpcreview.

Silentpcreview purposely set their fan curve to maintain an 85C max temperature. GPU are designed to handle that temperature and by setting the max at that point you can maintain a lower fan speed. You don't have to have paranoia concerning cpu and gpu temperature. The main point is to keep it within its rated thermal specs to where it isn't throttling and has an acceptable fan curve. The node 304 is a good case, so is the core 500. Can't to wrong with any of these choices.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Ah, I understand. Thanks for the explanation. If a graphics card throttles, that means overheating, right?I'll compare the 304 and 500 later on, and choose between one of those. I think the GD05B is probably too big, though it would look quite nice.

 

[iFreilicht]

Ah, I understand. Thanks for the explanation. If a graphics card throttles, that means overheating, right?

In most cases yes, but not necessarily. The AMD R9 Nano is a good counterexample, it also throttles based on power consumption. Still, throttling from high temps is what you're worried about, and with a silent setup, you want to tweak your setup in such a way that you stay below that throttling threshold temperature while having the lowest RPM on the fans. Some people, especially extreme watercooling enthusiasts are pushing the idea of very low temperatures, like 15° above ambient, but as you're getting closer to the ambient temperature, higher RPMs, more fans and more radiator space yield diminishing returns, so orienting yourself on the higher temperatures is going to be beneficial for the quietness of your system. Ideally, you'd want to run the system just below throttling temperature under load for the lowest noise, but depending on your setup, this could influence the temperatures of the PSU as well, and you don't want that to heat up if you can avoid it at all.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I'm not an extreme watercooling enthusiast, but I've looked a bit into it for my GPU. The node 304 supports a 'single-fan watercooling system' which I believe would be 120mm, which is perfect for a watercooled GTX 970. The Core 500 allows for a 280mm radiator, which could support GPU and CPU watercooling (120-140mm for each), if not mistaken. That might be overkill for an i5 which won't be overclocked (turbo, yes, but not beyond that). Since the system is going to be sitting on a home entertainment unit, I won't be right up close to it, so sound is a bit less of an issue, but I don't want something that's gonna sound like a wind tunnel. I'm more concerned about high temperatures, and especially being a SFF system, I definitely don't want the PSU to get hot.

 

[thehack]

I'm not an extreme watercooling enthusiast, but I've looked a bit into it for my GPU. The node 304 supports a 'single-fan watercooling system' which I believe would be 120mm, which is perfect for a watercooled GTX 970. The Core 500 allows for a 280mm radiator, which could support GPU and CPU watercooling (120-140mm for each), if not mistaken. That might be overkill for an i5 which won't be overclocked (turbo, yes, but not beyond that). Since the system is going to be sitting on a home entertainment unit, I won't be right up close to it, so sound is a bit less of an issue, but I don't want something that's gonna sound like a wind tunnel. I'm more concerned about high temperatures, and especially being a SFF system, I definitely don't want the PSU to get hot.

You'll be okay! There is nothing SFF about a core 500 or node 304, both are around 20L. We have a 18L mATX case that can handle two gpu. Again. Don't fret about 60C or 75C. Your GPU does not care. It is all a big marketing push to squeeze out more dollars from your pocket. Your gtx 970 doesn't care if it's running at 60 or 75C, both below its throttling limits. Or CPU doesn't care if it's at 60 or 75C, both are below its throttling limits. And I haven't heard a PSU getting hot since 1999 when we didn't know how to build computer cases properly.

 

[iFreilicht]

You'll be okay! There is nothing SFF about a core 500 or node 304, both are around 20L. We have a 18L mATX case that can handle two gpu. Again. Don't fret about 60C or 75C. Your GPU does not care. It is all a big marketing push to squeeze out more dollars from your pocket. Your gtx 970 doesn't care if it's running at 60 or 75C, both below its throttling limits. Or CPU doesn't care if it's at 60 or 75C, both are below its throttling limits. And I haven't heard a PSU getting hot since 1999 when we didn't know how to build computer cases properly.

Jup, absolutely true. Sure, lower temperatures will give your GPU or CPU a marginally better lifetime, but you're not planning to use them 24/7 on 100% load for 15 years, right? Still, JonCZ, if you want to try watercooling, go right ahead, just be aware that at some point, especially low loads, your pump will be louder than the fans, and I suppose that is critical for an HTPC.

My concern with the PSU getting hot is that the fan control on the PSU is the one thing you can't control, so you wanna make sure to keep its temperature low. On the other hand, SFX PSUs with semi-fanless features can profit from being a bit warmer as that will stop the fan controller from constantly holding the fan at it's starting voltage, which results in an annoying chirping sound.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I've decided to go with the Core 500 for a case. I'm also going to stick with air cooling since that is the strong point of the Core 500 case. Now in a review video I watched, it was recommended that I use a blower style GPU. But it seems that these are less powerful than the traditional fan-cooled cards. I also should state I am willing to do a MILD overclock of the GPU if necessary (but not the CPU), if that changes what type of cooling I'd need for the card. What do you all recommend?
And one other question - should I still get a dedicated cooler for the CPU?

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Well, I've got all the parts selected and I'm ready to order them. I've decided to go with:

CPU: Intel i5-6500 3.2 GHz
CPU cooler: Cryorig H7 Tower Cooler
Motherboard: ASRock H110M-ITX/ac
RAM: G.Skill NT Series 16GB DDR4-2133
SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 500 GB
GPU: ASUS GTX 970 Turbo
Case: Fractal Design Core 500
PSU: Corsair CX500M 500W Modular 80+ Bronze
OS: Windows 10 Home

Total cost: ~ $1026.77 after rebates.

Any red lights, feedback? I'm happy to have finally decided on everything. Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions along the way so far.

 

[thehack]

Power supply is a low tier one. Buy one from evga. G2/GS 550W or higher. You should also get a two 120 or 140mm fans for air intakes. This keeps the case at positive pressure to keep out the dust.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I'm gonna go with the GS. The G2 won't fit in my case.
Any recommendations for fans? I need ones that won't interfere with my CPU cooler. My friend said I probably wouldn't need any additional since there are the magnetic dust filters on the case, but they might not be a bad idea if I can get them for a reasonable price.

EDIT: The case has a SSR3 140mm fan. If I get two more of those for the top, it's an extra $17 which is actually quite lower than I expected. But I'll have to get another CPU cooler if I do, and it will have to realistically be non-tower style. Another concern is that all the fans will make a lot of extra noise - rear fan, two top fans, GPU fan, CPU cooler.

 

[thehack]

You can get a Cryorig M9i, which will give you enough clearance. You don't need very high specs for cooler since the locked i5 is rated at 65W. You are wrong about the fans though. By having more fans, you can keep the system cool which prevents the cpu cooler and gpu cooler's fans from ramping up. Large slow-spinning fans are quieter than small fast spinning fans. Your loudest component would be your GPU cooler.

Check out silentpcreviews for some good fan reviews. Corsair quiet edition, noctua premium/redux are fans you can't go wrong with. I believe Antec's truequiet 140mm is the best fan per dollar.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I'm gonna go with the M9i, it looks like a great alternative to the H7 for those who need its smaller size.
As for fans, I definitely wanna go with 140mm, since they are the largest the case supports. But I'm gonna do some more research. It seems counter-intuitive to put intake fans on the top of the system, because heat rises and it's more natural to exhaust it out of the top. However, if I use the top for exhaust, the rear fan would have to be reversed, causing negative pressure and also requiring a non-blower GPU. I'm also looking at the Node 304 to compare how air flows through it, since it already has all three required fans and air does not flow from or to the top, but rather from front to back.

 

[thehack]

I'm gonna go with the M9i, it looks like a great alternative to the H7 for those who need its smaller size.
As for fans, I definitely wanna go with 140mm, since they are the largest the case supports. But I'm gonna do some more research. It seems counter-intuitive to put intake fans on the top of the system, because heat rises and it's more natural to exhaust it out of the top. However, if I use the top for exhaust, the rear fan would have to be reversed, causing negative pressure and also requiring a non-blower GPU. I'm also looking at the Node 304 to compare how air flows through it, since it already has all three required fans and air does not flow from or to the top, but rather from front to back.

Heat rising is a very small effect compared to forcing air out.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

Hey everyone, it's been almost a week so I figured I'd check in with an update. I received all my parts yesterday and looked at the contents. Today I'll spend some time building the system before I have to go to work this afternoon. The noticeable change I made is that I went with the Node 304. Thanks everyone again for the help and suggestions. Now here comes the fun part - getting this thing built!

Sorry if it's a bit dark

 

[Deleted member 289973]

UPDATE: I've got everything in the case, connected, and I did a power test before I went to work today. Everything turned on and seemed to run properly. However, I have some troubles with cable management, with the biggest problem being some interference behind my GPU. The modular PSU is 150mm (definitely within the limits specified by the case manufacturer which suggested 160 ot shorter) but the cables seem to be pushing my GPU slightly to the side and this concerns me. Any suggestions or recommendations? I really do not want to hassle with returning any parts if not 100% necessary.

 

[thehack]

I would bend and route the cables out of the way. Do all your cable management first and then install the gpu last. Use zip ties and whatever other ties you need.

 

[Deleted member 289973]

I've done some reading about cable management in the node 304 and several people pointed out some hinge-looking sections that can help. Also, some people said that modular PSUs over 140mm cause cabling conflict with GPUs, even though Fractal themselves said up to 160 would work. Turning the PSU upside down might help, or maybe the cables just need some tricky routing. The last thing I wanna do is RMA the PSU and have to pay more money for a more compact unit plus a re-stocking fee. I guess I'll see what I can do after taking the GPU out.
This takes a lot more patience than I expected. I thought this would be a two or three hour ordeal, and was I ever wrong. I've spent about eight so far, with no idea of how much more lies ahead. Not sure if it's from inexperience, being an ITX build (compared to a more simple ATX), a mix, or other things. I just hope it's all very much worth it in the end!

 

[Deleted member 289973]

UPDATE 2: Got the system put together, cable management is a lot better this time around thanks to a couple co-workers who helped me out. All that remains is installing an OS and the equipment drivers. I'm really close to having a working system and it's exciting. Thanks to everyone here fot your help, too.