NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

[WiSK]

Necere, you rock, and you shouldn't mind anyone who is sounding critical, you've done a great job, but it can never be perfect since everyone has different needs and expectations.

The connectors are a fairly fixed item, it cannot be changed, but cable thickness can be changed, and thus a (small) performance improvement can be achieved by thicker cables, and the difference is more significant the higher the amperage passing through it.

The longer the span, the more a thicker cable is needed too. So in the situation with the M1, short cables, small gauge is acceptable. In the case of a large PSU and long cables, a thicker conductor is preferable.

What you said is mostly true but I highlight this bit of the text because, respectfully, I think you have a wrong conclusion.

Firstly, with regards 'performance'. When the electricity reaches the motherboard or GPU, then it's further regulated by VRMs. As long as the voltage offered to the component remains within ATX specifications (+/- 5% voltage), there's no benefit to getting say 11.9V over getting 11.8V. In the case of the ST45SF-G, if you have the sense wire properly connected, this will be somewhat adjusted at load anyway.

In for example a 2 meter long copper stranded wire the voltage drop difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG is 0.11V given a 4 ampere draw (e.g. PCIe full load). It's pretty small. Furthermore, the way the connectors are designed, multiple wires deliver same voltage. This further reduces the voltage drop, e.g. PCIe has 3 wires in parallel, and so the voltage drop difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG is only 0.032V. Now totally insignificant.

Secondly, with regards sleeving, the main guy who is promoting 16 AWG for sleeving, is selling pins designed for 18 AWG. There do exist Molex MiniFit Jr pins for 16 AWG, but if he sold those then his sleeve won't fit with the wire he is selling, and these pins aren't intended for the crimper he is selling

 

[cowsgomoo]

You know, I haven't said it often, but I do appreciate the kind words. It's easy to get stressed and discouraged about all the little things that aren't perfect, so it's nice to have a reminder that people are genuinely happy with what we've done here.

It's so close to perfection that almost nobody talks about other SFF cases on this forum anymore. Because the Ncase M1 has made it pointless to talk about other cases.

 

[voklskier4452]

Necere and Wahaha, you guys did an amazing job. I first got into SFX when I saw miahallen's build in a SG-05. Prior to the Ncase I have not seen seen another case use space as well as the SG-05. The layout is damn near perfect and frankly my only complaint when I built my Ncase up was a lack of extra screws. The execution, delivery, and design of this case has made it my prized possession (well, at least when it comes to PC stuff ).

 

[okwchin]

What you said is mostly true but I highlight this bit of the text because, respectfully, I think you have a wrong conclusion.

Firstly, with regards 'performance'. When the electricity reaches the motherboard or GPU, then it's further regulated by VRMs. As long as the voltage offered to the component remains within ATX specifications (+/- 5% voltage), there's no benefit to getting say 11.9V over getting 11.8V. In the case of the ST45SF-G, if you have the sense wire properly connected, this will be somewhat adjusted at load anyway.

In for example a 2 meter long copper stranded wire the voltage drop difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG is 0.11V given a 4 ampere draw (e.g. PCIe full load). It's pretty small. Furthermore, the way the connectors are designed, multiple wires deliver same voltage. This further reduces the voltage drop, e.g. PCIe has 3 wires in parallel, and so the voltage drop difference between 18 AWG and 16 AWG is only 0.032V. Now totally insignificant.

Secondly, with regards sleeving, the main guy who is promoting 16 AWG for sleeving, is selling pins designed for 18 AWG. There do exist Molex MiniFit Jr pins for 16 AWG, but if he sold those then his sleeve won't fit with the wire he is selling, and these pins aren't intended for the crimper he is selling

Agree totally with everyone you have stated. The difference is practically negligible in most systems.

Because most loads are regulated (and not simply linear), the difference in voltage supplied will not make any discernible difference to the operation of the computer.

The load will simply pull a little (and by little, we mean a very small amount) more current to compensate for the drop in voltage, and the additional power lost in the cables is even more negligible.

Yes, I agree that for all practical intents and purposes, the difference is negligible and irrelevant.


BTW, Sooo happy with my NCases. Only using one at the moment, but I am just itching to put the second one together… I had been looking to get into the ITX world following my last build, but with no practical need for one any time soon, I just could never bring myself to buy a new case for the sake of it.

Had a friend link me the NCase on indiegogo after the toms hardware write up, and my first reaction was - OMG. Although he wasn't all that interested, The moment I saw it, I knew I had found the reason to get myself an ITX computer! I couldn't decide between black or silver… Ended up buying two, and I do not regret that at all! (well maybe a smidge now given that V2 is on the horizon)

Well there you go Necere and Wahaha360 Your case alone was sufficient justification for me to build a computer I did not need! (and spend three times more money on a case than I have ever spent!)

Thanks!

 

[Phuncz]

I'd also like to point out my gratitude to Necere and Wahaha360 for making the Ncase M1 a real thing. It's a game changer. I pointed this out many more times but I'd like to chime in once more because I'm so happy about my Ncase.

And as said a few points above me: the suggestions thread for the second revision is 90% "make it bigger so I can fit random component X" and 10% is the stuff you already suggested to fix.

 

[Necere]

Thanks guys. Really, I'm my own biggest critic (with the possible exception of a few people on /g/ ), and the last thing I want to do is discourage feedback. How else are you going to know what needs improving, right? No one said it would always be easy.

To give just one example of a seemingly minor change that turns out to have some more significant implications: I found out today that in order to change the front audio jacks to 'click' when a plug is inserted (something a couple people brought up), the newer HD audio jacks have different internals than the old AC97 ones, and the current design doesn't leave enough room for the required spring. Instead, we'd have to switch to a PCB design and a new aluminum mount/housing designed for it. The PCB has a MOQ of 3,000 units, and while I don't know the per-unit cost yet, I can guess.

So we have to consider whether we can sell enough units to make that viable. I have to think about if there's enough people interested in paying $200+ for a niche case, and then waiting several weeks for it to be delivered. Considering most of the people that followed the thread here on [H] probably already have one if they wanted one, you know, is the market for it basically tapped out? Or have we picked up enough interest in the last few months to do 3x the original sales? It's a hard call. But then again, our model may afford us some leeway here - maybe we can make clicky jacks a 'stretch goal.'

That's just one of many "small" things under consideration. There's lots of analyzing - engineering-wise, usage scenarios, as well as business/economic. Can I make this change? How can it be done? Should it be done? Who/what will it affect? What are the alternatives? That analysis serves to inform the executive decisions that need to be made, both large and small. I need to arrive at a decision, then often I need to say to people, I'd like to do that, but this is why I can't/shouldn't. It's challenging, and I wouldn't say unrewarding, but can be taxing as well. So again, it does serve as a reminder that what we're doing is worthwhile when people express their appreciation.

 

[Hanakuso]

I just received my case yesterday and I can't believe how well thought out this case is. I'm kinda a case snob and I haven't been this excited since I originally bought a TJ07. I just gave my suggestion for the 2nd revision. I think a lot of feedback might be seen as complaints/issues but in reality this case is already awesome and no case will be perfect for thousands of people.

Does anyone know which case feet are compatible with the ncase?

 

[illli]

Considering most of the people that followed the thread here on [H] probably already have one if they wanted one, you know, is the market for it basically tapped out? Or have we picked up enough interest in the last few months to do 3x the original sales? It's a hard call. But then again, our model may afford us some leeway here - maybe we can make clicky jacks a 'stretch goal.'

Has there been any professional reviews of the case? Maybe before the next round begins there could be some reviews done of rev1, but ask the reviewers to postpone publishing the review until the next campaign begins. Once the new campaign starts, the people would read the reviews for rev1, see a note about rev2 campaign starting, and with a link to the campaign. Probably much harder said than done to line up all that, but just a thought to get higher number of potential people.

 

[Necere]

Does anyone know which case feet are compatible with the ncase?

The included feet are 40x10mm, which is in-between Lian Li's usual sizes (35 and 45mm). You could use the smaller 35mm LL feet, if you wanted. This site also sells compatible 40x10mm feet in a few different colors.

Has there been any professional reviews of the case?

We did send one to SPCR, and another rather large site may be doing a piece (might be more of a story on the project than a review) as well.

 

[AFD]

Does anyone know which case feet are compatible with the ncase?

The FocusAttack 40mm feet are identical (but available in black, silver, gold)..

http://www.focusattack.com/tags/feet


EDIT: Lol, what Necere just said.. I'm always typing too slow =)

 

[cowsgomoo]

I switched my feet to the Lian Li SD04 45mm wide 23mm high because I do bottom exhaust.

 

[Phuncz]

maybe we can make clicky jacks a 'stretch goal.'

LOL I just found out now my Ncase's jacks don't click because it doesn't have the clicky jacks I thought it was something wrong but I didn't bother because it works.

But I guess you already found out how to get a reading on how many potential cases you could get to people: start a new crowdfunding campaign. But if you really want to get your wonderful achievement out to everyone, I'd recommend getting some site coverage. It might just spark the flame for other brands to start taking you seriously (job offers, custom parts like reservoirs, etc.).

 

[amb1ence]

Wow! This is beautiful!

 

[bobglaub]

So we have to consider whether we can sell enough units to make that viable. I have to think about if there's enough people interested in paying $200+ for a niche case, and then waiting several weeks for it to be delivered. Considering most of the people that followed the thread here on [H] probably already have one if they wanted one, you know, is the market for it basically tapped out? Or have we picked up enough interest in the last few months to do 3x the original sales? It's a hard call. But then again, our model may afford us some leeway here - maybe we can make clicky jacks a 'stretch goal.'

Just putting it out there that I wasn't able to buy any the first round. This round I will be buying 2. Maybe 3-4 so I can have some Christmas Gifts for my friends.

 

[cznv]

I switched my feet to the Lian Li SD04 45mm wide 23mm high because I do bottom exhaust.

Can you make a shot of the case with those feet? I'd like to know how that goes!

 

[Bman69]

The included feet are 40x10mm, which is in-between Lian Li's usual sizes (35 and 45mm). You could use the smaller 35mm LL feet, if you wanted. This site also sells compatible 40x10mm feet in a few different colors.

We did send one to SPCR, and another rather large site may be doing a piece (might be more of a story on the project than a review) as well.

You guys really need to send a case to https://www.youtube.com/user/HardwareCanucks they do good reviews and it would get a lot of attention, please consider this in the future

 

[Lutfij]

^ This, Dmitri is spot on regarding pros and cons of a case!

Round 2 production should be in the bag with the corrections taken from a wide audience. You can't please everyone but you can accommodate the flexibility for a builder to take advantage of them.

 

[Necere]

You guys really need to send a case to https://www.youtube.com/user/HardwareCanucks they do good reviews and it would get a lot of attention, please consider this in the future

Yeah, their video reviews are pretty good. Though, judging by some of their other reviews, I'm not sure the M1 would review well. It's unique and fairly remarkable for its size, but if you're comparing it to other cases and size isn't such a priority, there are definitely cases that are better in terms of ease-of-use (cable management, toolless features, less component restrictions, magnetic fan filters, etc.).

 

[Bobalias_LeShay]

Is the second run going to incorporate the changes that are currently being discussed, or is there going to be a more immediate second run of the original design, and a possible 3rd run would have the changes?

 

[Necere]

Is the second run going to incorporate the changes that are currently being discussed

Yes.

 

[OverRated]

Its a long shot but the current M1 is made for home/desk and not made to be moved around a lot, I would like to see a more solid version which can take a beating with a inbuilt handle, A small version of say the cooler master storm scout with the M1s size and layout. Yes it would be bigger but would still beat any other ITX case out there to fill this gap.

 

[Phuncz]

Or just get this: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1800249
Cheaper and more practical than buying a second case. Also, Necere doesn't need to completely redesign the case for an even smaller target audience.

 

[cowsgomoo]

Its a long shot but the current M1 is made for home/desk and not made to be moved around a lot, I would like to see a more solid version which can take a beating with a inbuilt handle, A small version of say the cooler master storm scout with the M1s size and layout. Yes it would be bigger but would still beat any other ITX case out there to fill this gap.

I don't actually care about the aluminium; I care more about the function. Sometimes I wish it's built of steel like the Compact Splash. But that's more like an M2 project.
(Summon ghastly image of that Ncase M1 crushed during delivery)

 

[OverRated]

Or just get this: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1800249
Cheaper and more practical than buying a second case. Also, Necere doesn't need to completely redesign the case for an even smaller target audience.

That's my point the M1 is a awesome case don't get me wrong, But its no LAN rig its light weight and need a bag to protect it, If i wanted to carry my rig around in a bag like a laptop i would of brought a laptop, I brought the M1 knowing it was weak and easy to damage as its a home PC, Now if there was a LAN version of the M1 i would happily empty my wallet if you know what I'm saying.

 

[Phuncz]

So why design a new case for the select few that lug it around, when someone is already making an awesome bag that solves the problem ?

 

[cowsgomoo]

Bag doesn't protect it from crushing. But you're right that only a few people will lug the case around.
For the handle, Overrated can just get the GearGrip Micro though.

 

[Zef Pomp]

I sent an email to [email protected], 11 days ago about getting more female case clips, am I sending it to the correct guy?

 

[Drerex]

Finally got the build put together. Powder coating is still planned but set back a little (Busy with several other things). Once build is complete, I will have better pictures loaded. Specs have been updated as well.

Motherboard - Asus Impact Z87
Chip - Intel Core i7 4770k
CPU Cooling - Corsair H100i AIO Liquid Cooler
Memory - Corsair Vengeance Pro 2133MHz 8GB
GPU - EVGA GTX 780 Ti
SSD - Samsung 840 Pro 500GB
PSU - Silverstone 450W SFX PSU
Sleeving - Atwood Paracord 550lb
Fans - (4) Cougar Vortex PWM Fans
Optical - EVGA's Hadron Slot Load DVD-RW

Tested on Video Wall. While watching March Madness!!

 

[Hanakuso]

Drerex - Looks good. I have a very similar setup and have a H100i still in the packaging. How is you're overall temps? Looks like your fans are setup for pull.

 

[WiSK]

{blah blah...} Asus P8Z77-I and the Apogee Drive II fits fine on this.

Mea culpa

Just did a remount of a Asus P8Z77-I and noticed little indents on two caps near the CPU socket. Turns out that the AD2 won't sit entirely flush on this board without slightly damaging those caps. Measured with some pieces of cardstock and the caps are between 0.45mm and 0.6mm above the surface of the CPU. Block will be closer than that, due to caps being indented. Suggest anyone experiencing disappointing CPU temps on that board with the AD2 should try a 1mm thick copper shim (25x25mm / 1 inch square).

(The Rog Impact doesn't have those caps luckily.)

 

[Necere]

I sent an email to [email protected], 11 days ago about getting more female case clips, am I sending it to the correct guy?

Yeah, he's their main sales guy and the same guy we work through. I believe he was away for Comdex, so he probably has a bit of a backlog. I'd try again if you don't hear anything by next week.

 

[Drerex]

Drerex - Looks good. I have a very similar setup and have a H100i still in the packaging. How is you're overall temps? Looks like your fans are setup for pull.

Temps look really good. 27 Degrees C on idle and 55 Degrees on full load. Very happy with it. I did setup the fans for pull due to how tight but once I saw the temps, I am cool with that setup. Thanks.

 

[wahaha360]

I sent an email to [email protected], 11 days ago about getting more female case clips, am I sending it to the correct guy?

If you are in the US, I have spare clips.

 

[Hanakuso]

Temps look really good. 27 Degrees C on idle and 55 Degrees on full load. Very happy with it. I did setup the fans for pull due to how tight but once I saw the temps, I am cool with that setup. Thanks.

Thanks. I'll probably go with that same setup. I think with the rad farther away like that, the tubing doesn't turns as much

 

[DarkStryke]

You guys really need to send a case to https://www.youtube.com/user/HardwareCanucks they do good reviews and it would get a lot of attention, please consider this in the future

HWC as a site is slowly dying, probably not the best use of a case.

 

[OverRated]

So why design a new case for the select few that lug it around, when someone is already making an awesome bag that solves the problem ?

Bag doesn't protect it from crushing. But you're right that only a few people will lug the case around.
For the handle, Overrated can just get the GearGrip Micro though.

Making a LAN version of the M1 would bring in a different group of people as well, For one not every one likes cases made out of aluminum, Also other reason i don't take my M1 to LAN is that it can easily get damaged and its no very easy to replace parts on a limit made case.

Any takers ? There not really any reason to have pop on side panels when you can get the side on ones.

 

[cowsgomoo]

Can you make a shot of the case with those feet? I'd like to know how that goes!

Please ignore dirty case and table. Feet in question is the 23mm high Lian Li SD-04.

 

[adamantium]

Making a LAN version of the M1 would bring in a different group of people as well, For one not every one likes cases made out of aluminum, Also other reason i don't take my M1 to LAN is that it can easily get damaged and its no very easy to replace parts on a limit made case.

Any takers ? There not really any reason to have pop on side panels when you can get the side on ones.

The Storm Scout 2 cases are great (and inexpensive). I bought three of them last year. I like the Storm Trooper even more. I've got one of those loaded with a Asus Rampage IV Extreme, i7 3930K, LSI RAID and 10 HDD. Both are big and heavy duty. The Trooper weighs over 50 lbs loaded, but the handles on both are very strong. I would love to see a mock up of an M1 Trooper, and I would most definitely buy a more rugged steel M1 Trooper model. Maybe Cooler Master would be willing to work with NCASE to manufacture one.

 

[vipz]

Making a LAN version of the M1 would bring in a different group of people as well, For one not every one likes cases made out of aluminum, Also other reason i don't take my M1 to LAN is that it can easily get damaged and its no very easy to replace parts on a limit made case.

Any takers ? There not really any reason to have pop on side panels when you can get the side on ones.

If you want a similar case but sturdier, there's always the Compact Slash.

If you're worrying about being able to find replacement parts, I'm not sure if that's a problem another small batch/one-off series can fix.

If you just want a LAN beater, you could maybe go with something like the SG08 LITE.

 

[Necere]

Making a LAN version of the M1 would bring in a different group of people as well, For one not every one likes cases made out of aluminum, Also other reason i don't take my M1 to LAN is that it can easily get damaged and its no very easy to replace parts on a limit made case.

Any takers ? There not really any reason to have pop on side panels when you can get the side on ones.

[/QUOTE]Nice photoshop. The issue with using plastic is the substantial cost to set up the injection molds. Check out [URL="http://www.overclock.net/t/1351862/corsair-mini-itx-what-do-you-want/1270#post_21558918"]this post[/URL] by CorsairGeorge, where he goes into the breakdown for what something like the M1 might cost to mass produce. He's talking about up-front tooling costs of a quarter of a million dollars. It's only possible to make that kind of investment if you're pretty sure you can sell a whole lot of them, over several years. And to do that, you need a real business: the engineers and product designers, the sales and marketing people, the distribution network, the support people. It's kind of amazing we've achieved what we have with this project, as just two people - amateurs, really, with hardly any experience or capital.

We're fortunate that a company like Lian Li exists. The way they manufacture cases is somewhat unique, in that much of the tooling is shared between many different models. This is what makes a project like ours possible. In effect, we're relying on their existing tooling and parts bin, as well as their case manufacturing experience to be able to deliver a high quality, unique, low volume case at a cost that, while not exactly cheap, is still in the ballpark of higher-end mass produced cases.

It'd be neat to design a case with plastic, since it allows a lot more flexibility than you get with sheet metal. But for the time being, at least, it's not something that's feasible for us.