MMO's and the future.

S

Stiler

[H]F Junkie
Joined
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So, I started playing graphical mmo's back in the mid 90's. During the UO/EQ days. One thing that both games shared in common was a sense of depth and a feeling that not everything was easy. UO had it's full looting with pvp, EQ had it's tough PVE with corpse runs and exp loss.

Together with other various things both games had a certain sense of depth and immersion to them. However when the next generation of mmo's started to develop things took certain turns away from both games in various senses.

After UO, you never really had a major well funded/backed game that had it's main focus on full open pvp with full looting. After EQ most pve oriented games scaled back what you could lose (corpse runs, exp, etc).

Lately I've been noticing, many people complain about how they get to the end game of an mmo and then run out of Content, they wonder "Why is there not another four hour raid I can go on? Or why is the third time through the same raid not fun anymore?"

I'll tell you why, and to me it's not the games fault, it's the players. The past couple of years on various forums, from general gaming forums to mmo forums, I've noticed that generally people are constantly wanting things both easier and quicker. They don't want to have to take any time for time, or to have to really earn them, and I don't mean earn in the sense of "I spent four hours in that raid," I mean actual earning, using player skill and character skill not about time invested.

They don't want to have to talk to a player crafter for an item, they want an AH to instantly be able to buy any and every item they ever have wanted. They don't want to lose anything on death, they just want to be res'd and that's that. They don't want to lose, but only want to gain. They don't want depth, they want easy quick assembly line "fun" pre packaged and spoon fed to them while they look at the nice uber shiny gear and weapons.

What many fail to understand, is that loss makes for greater reward. Yes, too much loss can be negative, but some kind of a loss means the risks/rewards feel better.

Apart from all of this, where some of us did start mmo's in those earlier days, many mmo players started much later, with games such as WoW. After this many people can't seem to grasp or get around the different concepts. You mention looting in pvp, and they can't get past "Well what about spending months to get an item and then having it looted???" Or, "What do you mean I have to actually look for a player shop or talk to a crafter?"

They don't seem to understand, that with this things comes depth, and with depth comes immersion and longevity. When you get away from Item dependence, and move toward eaiser to come by items from player crafters, from which you buy from and not an AH you increase both the fun for the player (because they don't "have" to raid raid raid) and because it promotes social interaction between crafters/customers aswell as giving crafters a better sense of accomplishment because they know/see the people that are actually buying their goods instead of just sliding them ad-assembly line like into an AH and that's the end of that.

Why is it so hard for people to simply withstand disbelief and to try somethin different? Why is it so hard for the normal mmo player to not assosicate every mmo with the same "item dependent/raid" formula that most are hung up on?

In the future do you want depth, immersion, and fun in a world that feels alive/breathing or do you want raids for the end game, no social interaction, and an end game that feels like an actual end?
 
damnit. That made me miss the 2 years I spent on UO. Started just (days) before trammel came around IIRC, with the T2A package. Huge amount of time on crafting and the non-wep things. Taming could take (and require, seriously) months to get to perfection. Treasure hunting the same. I miss those days...I remember my sister (started same time, same account) was given a silver halbed of force. OMG, it was so uber. I remember when people could go swords for heavy hitters or fencer for speed, and either way would work. Those are the things I miss. I also remember in the Days Of Twilight (R) how anything not silver and/or vanq was worthless...

The GL from my names comes from glor lord. My tamer ("Tamera", I was uncreative at the time of creation) made glor lady, that was a proud day for me. I dont think I ever managed to tame a dragon. Think I gave up at the high 80s and dragons required a shitload of effort at the bare minimum of 95.something.

Lets see if I can remember the names of my ending charactors. Tamera, Gimli (ax/lumber), aximili (my main until tamera, eldest of my charactors. Interesting mix of skills, swordsman, fencer, archer, swordsman, moved around a lot, and tamera still had better resist at the end). Um...other 2 were throwaways/mules IIRC.

Damnit. Now I miss UO. :(
 
Mad grinders and power gamers pretty much ruined mmo's they suck the light out of it then move on. I just bought WoW and I refuse to read the forums and plan on taking my time and enjoying just exploring and figuring things out on my own. I got caught up in that whole thing with Star Wars Galaxies (my first MMO) and it ruined much of the surprise and wonder after the early on adventures.
 
In the future do you want depth, immersion, and fun in a world that feels alive/breathing or do you want raids for the end game, no social interaction, and an end game that feels like an actual end?
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the problem most MMO's take is the word of the fanatic's on the forums. Everyone wants to have something for free, they want to have encounters where it can't be stolen from them, they want the ability to never have to corpse run, they want the ability of cheap, and easy mass transportation with out the help of another player character. Honestly with how easy games are these days, they are shrinking the world dramatically (no matter how big the build it), making it too trivial, and giving too many hand outs. I could be just rambling about my experiences in WoW but to tell you the truth i've seen it in everything, not so much in Ever Quest but it has gone the way of the whiners. Back when a wizard/druid were the kings of tranportation are no more, PoT really changed that, being the most drastic choice in the game (since it can even come with EQ1 - no expantions) the need for another character to mass transport dissapeared, even most encounters are now instanced.

somewhat sad, i miss the competition, and the fact knowing i could possibly loose a corpse, or have to work a while to get it back, or front alot of money to have it summoned. Something i'm hoping Sigil brings back into the MMO's with Vanguard.
 
I think today's formula is much better. Losing your items to other people only made rampant cheating/hassling that ruined games that were similiar but smaller in scope (Diablo1 and 2) I just want to play the game. I don't want to worry about farmers who simply pick on the weak because somene didn't start it day one or a person can only spend 3 hours as to 6 hours a day.

The only thing I want different is the "time period" Bring on more "Fallout" type feeling or space or anything else other than freaking orcs and goblins!
 
The only thing I want different is the "time period" Bring on more "Fallout" type feeling or space or anything else other than freaking orcs and goblins!
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where alot of develoment is headed, especially from korea seems to be a more futuristic role, but it seems only the big games are staying with the fantasy role of pixies, fairies, orces, and girly unicorns, i agree i want the genre to move away from the role of dungeon's and dragons and pick up something refreshing
 
This is one of the reasons I'm gonna be giving EvE a try after my CoH sub is up. I want more risk in my games. Too, i want the other guy to feel it when i hand his ass to him. I wnat him to curse my name, and spend his idle hours ploting elaborate revenge.
 
+Eve Online

Most of these problems are not evident in the game. There is no endgame, no end level. It just keeps going on forever, and a 2 month old character can take out a 2 year old character.

I spent 30 minutes one time running from asteriod belt to belt to get a way from some pvp pirates, which eventualy vaught me, blew up my ship and stole all my cargo. It cost all i had just to get a new ship, fittings and clone before i set out again.

Also, i think the average age of a person who plays Eve is like 27.
 
I wanted to play Eve, but my main enjoyment of any space sim is usually as a fighter pilot.

I just didn't have much fun in Eve because of their controls, I wish they'd consider moving toward a more player controlled version of combat, with a joystick or something able to be used instead of the usual click and point aspect they have, then I'd defiently play it, sort of like Alliegence did back in the day.
 
Vanguard or Warhammer Online are the games your looking for in the future. Although I don't think Vanguard will have PvP at launch. Warhammer is all about the PvP.

I think DAoC had a nice blend initially of crafting, xp penalties for death and a reason to PvP. Early on when you lost a relic, it was a PITA to get back.
 
Pre-trammel UO was the most thrilling PVP environment I've played in on a MMO. Crafting was tedious but insanely rewarding and deep IMO. Sure I got pissed off when a group of PKs came along and killed me mining, but setting a trap for them next time and killing them was even better. Most recently I played EQ2 for about 6 months. I got lvl 50, got all the awesome raid gear for a pally (Prism 2h, full rare armor, blah blah blah), then quit immediately because it was over and mad boring. No MMO has held my attention since UO.
 
MMO's = super frustrating. i just played thru broodwar and havent felt this good gamming since the first day i played WoW
 
I play EVE right now.. very kickass game indeed. I played UO back in th day for awhile, probably still to this day the best, most open MMO ever made. Now alot of people talk smack about Shadowbane.. but SB was by far the best PVP MMO ever made. It was all about PVP and nothing else. You could take out a whole city/town of those that made you mad, or it could happen to you if you upset the wrong person. The checks and balances in SB were right on. And it was all about PVP, carebears need not apply.

I wish there was more open PVP MMOs out there, but there is not cause of all the carebears :( oh well eventually someone will make one again and they will get all of the money from us PVPers.
 
I always hear people saying how good the PvP in Shadowbane was and I remember some of my friends were obsessed over it back in High School... so why did it completely die so quickly? Did they screw it up with a patch or something?
 
Dragonscript said:
+Eve Online

Most of these problems are not evident in the game. There is no endgame, no end level. It just keeps going on forever, and a 2 month old character can take out a 2 year old character.

I spent 30 minutes one time running from asteriod belt to belt to get a way from some pvp pirates, which eventualy vaught me, blew up my ship and stole all my cargo. It cost all i had just to get a new ship, fittings and clone before i set out again.

Also, i think the average age of a person who plays Eve is like 27.
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Indeed. I was reading the majority of this post and my first thought was to suggest Eve-Online. I played UO/EQ and had a blast for years. I became disenchanted with almost every MMORPG in general since. Eve online is the first one that recreates the feeling of newness and unending potential for anything i want.

For people who dismiss eve online as being a great MMORPG, you absolutely wouldnt believe the changes/improvements this game has made since its inception. Give the 14 day free trial a shot. Every month they are setting new simultaneous users online records.
 
I always hear people saying how good the PvP in Shadowbane was and I remember some of my friends were obsessed over it back in High School... so why did it completely die so quickly? Did they screw it up with a patch or something?
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it was great, and really creative, especially being super deceptive

how ever it was very buggy (which one isn't?) but one of the main killers was the imbalance, i don't remember seeing any type of mage what so ever, and pretty much nothing but scouts, scouts and more scouts.

i had fun playing it for the short while my small group of friends and i were into it, but it does wear off after a short while
 
Plus the lack of direct-control, point and click controls are starting to feel old for a lot of people in mmo's.
 
UO was able to be so hardcore because of one reason...it was the only party on the block. Back then having a MMO was like throwing a kegger in the middle of wyoming. Everyone wants to come. Now it's like being a stripper in Vegas...you gotta fight for your money.

Right now, there's a few things that publishers that have upcoming MMO's in their stables have to consider. First, they have to decide if their game is strong enough to compete with WoW. LOTRO and Warhammer, for instance, are strong enough franchises on their own so they don't take much thought. But without a successful and known franchise, then you have to rely on gameplay. Many things people consider successful in MMO's have already been done. Stepping outside what's successful is usually met with scrutiny. Scrutiny doesn't sell games. I believe a combination of lack of innovation and a proven franchise is what caused Microsoft to drop Vanguard.
 
UO wasn't the first/only.

There was Meridan 59 and The realm, though UO was probally the first semi "Big" one in terms of numbers and such.
 
I play poker and like it is said in Rounders, its hard to remember your best five hands but you can always remember your worst five. Or something like that.

The fear of risk makes the rewards so much better.
 
MMO's are going to need a major overhaul before I get back into them. The last one I played was guild wars and I really didn't like it at all. It really might as well have been a single player game because most of the people you would find in towns to go on missions with were no better than the AI guys you could use. PVP consisted of running through the map until you found somebody, and then standing there swapping blows until someone died, very boring.

I used to play a game called Project Entropia. It used real world money in-game, after blowing over $100 I stopped playing it, but I had a lot more fun in that game than most other MMO's I've played.

My ideal MMO would be very similiar to Project Entropia. I liked that it was set on an alien world, with humans trying to survive and colonize it. It wasn't inherintly PVP, it was more like everyone versus the environment. You could just as easily work together with people to accomplish a common goal as you could stab them in the back for your own gain. You start out as an immigrant, ariving on the planet with nothing but the clothes on your back. Right from the very start you are in control of your destiny. The game was so open that there were about as many ways to make money as you could dream up. Most people would start by gathering sweat from monsters, which was then sold to crafters who used it as a raw material for making more valuable things. "Sweating", as it was called, was a tough profession. Sweaters would usually gather in groups, often sacrificing themselves for the good of the group. Of course, if you were a higher level hunter a monster being farmed for sweat makes an easy kill, as it is distracted. Ever see a group of 30-40 complete newbies destroy a high level player who has been playing for years because he killed their sweat mob? I have, lol. It would take 10 or more hours of this, constantly at risk of a gruesome death, before you collected enough sweat to sell or trade for your first gun (or mining equipment, crafting blueprints and materials, or whatever else you wanted really). Of course this is assuming the market was good at the time and people would buy it for 3 cents a bottle. Throughout the year that I played sweat prices fluctuated between 2 to 3.5 cents per bottle, and ofter newbies were ripped off. The higher level crafters often tried to form unions and set sweat prices at 2.5 cents per bottle or less, which increased their profit margin. Often newbies would sell at ridiculously low prices in exchange for an almost useless weapon or piece of armor. Word of these shady business practices would get around and people would boycott that crafter and not buy from them. There were groups that were dedicated to protecting newbies from being ripped off. There were groups dedicated to making it impossible for newbies to get ahead. Groups would form aliances, go to war, create treaties, etc. Higher level players would take on apprentices, show them the ropes of their profession. An apprenticeship with a hunter might just get you your first weapon, more than likely a little Jester D1 or equivalent, but it was still something for free. They would often cut you in on the loot, even though you more than likely did little to help with the kill. An apprenticeship with an expert miner might get you invaluable information on where the good mining spots are. Or, they might hook you up with a crafter who will guarantee to buy whatever you mine at good prices.

Anyways, I'm rambling, and this wasn't meant to be about how great that game was, because really it wasn't. The ideas in that game are revolutionary, they are the makings of the perfect MMO, they just weren't implemented very well. The graphics were bland and boring, and ultimately there was no way to get ahead, you would always lose money and have to keep putting more in to keep playing, which really isn't any different than any other MMO. The open-ness and freedom that that game gave you led to a ton of creativity and highly varied gameplay, which I think is what is most important for MMO's
 
I have not read all of the posts in this threa, but I would like to comment. I played UO for a few years back in the day, and I can see your point. I think there is too much item dependency in most of the current mmos. I don't think that player looting in and of itself solves this problem. It instead just creates an avenue of grief.

I am very excited about a new mmo which should be released this fall called the Chronicles of Spellborn: www.tcos.com. This games seeks to remove item dependency almost completely. You get to use the equipment that looks cool and add tokens to the equipment to increase its power. TCoS is also introducing skill based combat. There won't be any auto attack.

I would suggest that anyone who is tired of the current batch of mmo's check it out. It will definately be something new, although there is no way to know if it will be good.
 
sickwookie said:
I would suggest that anyone who is tired of the current batch of mmo's check it out. It will definately be something new, although there is no way to know if it will be good.
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I think there was a news item on the main site which quoted a president/CEO of a big company saying it was, in all practicality, impossible for independent designers to succeed. I believe this is even more true in the MMO scene. I like the idea of twitch based combat, but it's so hard to pull off in a traditional RPG setting. If it does come out on schedule and gets some attention, I probably will try it out.
 
It may be difficult for a small company to be successful in this realm, but less than a year of development over 40,000 people have registered for beta applications. I personally think they will be able to be successful for the reasons I have mentioned. They are inovating in an area where there is a lot of stagnant ideas, and that is enough for me to check it out.
 
I think the main problem with gamers today is simply that most games that are being released today are so easy. I remember spending hours and hours in games like Contra 3 and Soldier of Fortune for SNES and I never even got passed the fourth or fifth levels. Now it seems like most games are way to easy, even on the hardest settings.

Gamers today are getting used to this sort of never dying/shouldn't ever die in a game attitude, and I believe it is a bad thing and it is what is causing a lot of the recent games to be sort of bland/boring, where it seems like your character is so invincible you can't lose and feel like handicapping yourself as much as possible.

Especially in games like MMOs where in order to be successful you have to have a fairly large player base, your game has to appeal to a much larger audience. And what you get is sort of a gray mix of the dulled down ideas and concepts that the game may have been originally.
 
ben7866 said:
I think the main problem with gamers today is simply that most games that are being released today are so easy. I remember spending hours and hours in games like Contra 3 and Soldier of Fortune for SNES and I never even got passed the fourth or fifth levels. Now it seems like most games are way to easy, even on the hardest settings.

Gamers today are getting used to this sort of never dying/shouldn't ever die in a game attitude, and I believe it is a bad thing and it is what is causing a lot of the recent games to be sort of bland/boring, where it seems like your character is so invincible you can't lose and feel like handicapping yourself as much as possible.
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Unfortunently, casual gamers do not buy games that are difficult, as they find no enjoyment out of them. Something that might be affecting the developers decisions to make easier games is to cater to casual gamers, or "everybody". I don't know what kind of percentage casual gamers make up, but it must be large enough to make it worth the developers effort (or lack of it) to make easier gamers.

For example, one of my friends wanted to get into a new RPG, so he came to me for advice. I gave him as unbiased opinion as I could, and he said "all I want is a game that I can level up fast in". That's when I became biased :). Anyways, the point is, he wanted an easy game, even though it may not be deep or well-made at all. That's just a view I have on it, hopefully it makes sense.
 
Yeah, exactly, gamers have become so used to the "I want it now" sort of game, you can especially see it in online games when someone loses and they get soo pissed off. It's like they never lost before. It's probably just the sort of society we are evolving into now.
 
Unfortunently, casual gamers do not buy games that are difficult, as they find no enjoyment out of them. Something that might be affecting the developers decisions to make easier games is to cater to casual gamers, or "everybody". I don't know what kind of percentage casual gamers make up, but it must be large enough to make it worth the developers effort (or lack of it) to make easier gamers.
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in EverQuest at one point the elitists made up about 12% of the population, where that 12% were the hardcore raiders, heavey questers and deadly into trade skills.

doesn't say much, especially when you have 88% of the rest that doesn't do it, doesn't mean they don't care about it. with the high end going on you have access to see things others don't, it becomes a goal for people to see these cools things and eventually work their way up to it wether its the next expantion or not, if no one was there to discover these things i doubt that they would have the interest to keep playing with what seems to be a stagnant game

the game requires it all around, have the casual portion big enough (which games out there do have plenty of) and have the hard part which requires alot of planning and testing ready for when the players are ready for it as well, make the stuff rewarding but also make it difficult
 
Trimlock said:
the game requires it all around, have the casual portion big enough (which games out there do have plenty of) and have the hard part which requires alot of planning and testing ready for when the players are ready for it as well, make the stuff rewarding but also make it difficult
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Good point, and doing that seems so difficult. You can't really have your cake and eat it too from a standpoint of the gamers. Developers need to make money, you can't totally blame them. Using pre-trammel UO again as an example. A casual gamer had a difficult time in that world, too much time required to minimize your risks, and no rewards if you didn't take the time. On the other hand, when it became easier to minimize your risks, I started to lose interest, eventually quitting because of it, along with many others. On the other hand, they gained more casual subscribers during the time I lost interest. Without thinking about the alternatives too much, I would say PvP/non-PvP servers are the best bet when it comes to MMO. The problem I've seen is one server is just an adaptation of the other, when they should be almost totally seperate mechanics. I'm sure there are many other examples/solutions, again these are just my thoughts.
 
4saken said:
Indeed. I was reading the majority of this post and my first thought was to suggest Eve-Online. I played UO/EQ and had a blast for years. I became disenchanted with almost every MMORPG in general since. Eve online is the first one that recreates the feeling of newness and unending potential for anything i want.

For people who dismiss eve online as being a great MMORPG, you absolutely wouldnt believe the changes/improvements this game has made since its inception. Give the 14 day free trial a shot. Every month they are setting new simultaneous users online records.
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Ever hear of EVE people? EVE, damn do I love that game, its the closest thing to UO in terms of PVP, hell theres even suicide pirates in high sercurity ( "safe" space, I use that loosely, as you can still lose everything in "safe" space by players, pirates, npc's and be looted) who wait for someone with something worth alot in their cargo, and go kill them before concord (the "cops", or "gaurds") kill him, then gets one of his friends to loot that item... if it survived, sell it and get rich!... Sigh I love the game, and I do currently play it, I'm part of the V.O.I.D. Alliance if anyone knows who that is :p

Chilly
 
Chilly said:
Ever hear of EVE people? EVE, damn do I love that game, its the closest thing to UO in terms of PVP, hell theres even suicide pirates in high sercurity ( "safe" space, I use that loosely, as you can still lose everything in "safe" space by players, pirates, npc's and be looted) who wait for someone with something worth alot in their cargo, and go kill them before concord (the "cops", or "gaurds") kill him, then gets one of his friends to loot that item... if it survived, sell it and get rich!... Sigh I love the game, and I do currently play it, I'm part of the V.O.I.D. Alliance if anyone knows who that is :p

Chilly
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I remember doing the 14-day trial wayyy back when it first came out. I had a hard time getting used to the interface and controls, but it was probably because I didn't put any effort into it. From the sounds of it, it might be worth another shot. I kinda have a thing about starting MMOs too far into their existence, I feel like I'm too far behind, will I get that feeling?
 
The problem with a lot of the so-called innovative gameplay designs in new MMO's is that they have no longevity. CoH and Guild Wars were heralded as great departures in traditional MMO's but I rarely hear of people staying with them for any great length of time, especially when compared to the average turn-over rate of their contemporaries. Having hypothetically interesting ideas like little item dependency makes end-game last much shorter. Alternate avenues of end-game advancement like more skills and such both dilute and bloat gameplay and in the end is little different than item upgrades. Grinding is grinding is grinding. Whether it's a +10 HP permanent skill or a +10 HP chestplate would hardly matter; the end result is the same just as acquiring either is the same grind. Even worse is if there were fewer upgrades as such and offered little end-game advancement.

Also, non-high fantasy settings have been tried and many have failed. Anarchy Online tried to go sci-fi but in the end even they broke down and went fantasy (nano = magic in every concievable aspect, even the animations). SWG is just a mess, even if it wasn't the whole Star Wars universe is pretty much science fantasy anyway. EVE is one of the few that have broken the mold with any success. However, I beta tested that game and it forever ruined my experience with it so I won't be trying it again ever.

Conversely though, I used to play a MUD where it literally took months to advance a single level at higher levels, there were circumstances that you could lose multiple ranks of skills and even a level, any or all gear, and all said gear could have taken years to acquire and not ever be acquired again, and even after playing the game very, very consistently for years I could still be one-shotted by a great deal of players and creatures. There were no resets or wipes like in many other MUDs. It was the most hardcore game I've ever played and I played it for years. However I would have to say I do enjoy the current-gen MMOs more. There's a lot of excitement over that kind of hardcore environment but at the same time I would like to play when I want and how I want. If I'm too tired to go out and want to just chill at the computer I don't want to have to put 110% concentration up for hours just to maintain status quo (ie. not dying and having my equipment stolen and losing levels).
 
I think the future is all about balance.


All playstyles must have equal content and not exclude any type of player who is willing to put forth effort. This does not mean everyone will easily get through the game. I am talking in context of how you progress with your character. These games are suppose to be like their own little world and it is unreasonable to expect everyone to want to play the same way. People who want to solo should have that option. Those that want to function in big groups should also have that option. If either is favored to strongly the balance is broken and players no longer have a choice. Instead of progressing the character they are following a trail of bread crumbs that everyone else is following.

At the same time games must break away from the generalizations that lead to cookie cutter builds. If you allow players the choice of something that fits their playstyle then the game should fully support those options. Do not design a location where people must go but only 3 or 4 classes or specs are of great use. The others are simply filler incase you need more numbers.


No one roles a character in these type of games wanting to be a peon. (maybe somewhere someone does but I'd not expect that to be the norm) Unless everyone has an equal chance to become a hero based on how they want their character to be played then there will always be a lack of balance.
 
Neurofreeze said:
The problem with a lot of the so-called innovative gameplay designs in new MMO's is that they have no longevity. CoH and Guild Wars were heralded as great departures in traditional MMO's but I rarely hear of people staying with them for any great length of time, especially when compared to the average turn-over rate of their contemporaries. Having hypothetically interesting ideas like little item dependency makes end-game last much shorter. Alternate avenues of end-game advancement like more skills and such both dilute and bloat gameplay and in the end is little different than item upgrades. Grinding is grinding is grinding. Whether it's a +10 HP permanent skill or a +10 HP chestplate would hardly matter; the end result is the same just as acquiring either is the same grind. Even worse is if there were fewer upgrades as such and offered little end-game advancement.
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The problem is that people expect to play an mmo for an indefinite amount of time. This works as long as the developers continually add content before you reach the end of the current content. The problem arises when you finish before anything new gets added. To combat this there is the idea that players that finish the content will pvp. This is still just a grind as you poind out because you are now just trying to get that next weapon, armor, or title.

To be truly innovative an mmo needs to rework this entire system. TCoS is trying to do this by making pvp part of the game, and making the outcome of pvp more about player skill than character development. In this way you get game play much more like that of an online fps than an mmo. Suddenly, you don't care so much if you have the uber sword of leetness because you have a strategy to compensate for your characters weaknesses. In this way a hardcore player can quest to get the best gear, but that does not put him head and sholders above his more casual peers. Those peers can still offer a significant challenge in pvp which is really the holy grail in my opinion.

Instead of just having the hardcore players with all the best gear dominating all of the more casual players, (and therefore keeping the more casual players from participating with out it feeling like a grind) you get everyone able to participate. This is very similar to the way an online fps works. Anyone that jumps on has access to the same weapons and skills as others who play constantly.

I draw the comparision to online fps gameplay because I feel like fps games like cs are able to keep a large audience interested for a long period of time. Even though it may be six months to a year between additions of content the players still feel engaged because they are able to evolve their tactics and not just their characters like a traditional mmo.
 
ben7866 said:
I think the main problem with gamers today is simply that most games that are being released today are so easy. I remember spending hours and hours in games like Contra 3 and Soldier of Fortune for SNES and I never even got passed the fourth or fifth levels. Now it seems like most games are way to easy, even on the hardest settings.
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I think the reason games today aren't made as difficult as some NES games were is that they want to make them fun. I realize its not an MMO, but has anyone here actually seen the ending of TMNT on the NES? That isn't fun, and noone likes to be stuck in the same area for a long time because its too hard.

I believe the same concept applies to MMOs as well. Making the requirements for advancement so difficult that it becomes rare to reach the next level isn't fun either. I love MMOs and have played several for long periods of time, but I hate to pay for grind. My reasoning is that some MMOs make advancement very difficult in order to stretch out the amount of time a player spends in the world. This can also make up for lack of real content. One of the reasons WoW if so hugely popular is because it isn't painful to play, had lots of content and kept the rewarding feeling without being overly difficult.

At the end of the day MMOs need to not only find novel ideas for content but also to try and keep leveling fun without being too simple. I really hope that games don't become more difficult, because I already spend 10+ hours a day working. No need to sweat over a PC game.
 
tys90 said:
I remember doing the 14-day trial wayyy back when it first came out. I had a hard time getting used to the interface and controls, but it was probably because I didn't put any effort into it. From the sounds of it, it might be worth another shot. I kinda have a thing about starting MMOs too far into their existence, I feel like I'm too far behind, will I get that feeling?
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I am a powergamer. When EQ/SWG/EQ2 came out, i wanted to be the highest first. In eve, i dont feel that need at all. You will be far behind the highest players because all skills take time to complete. But there is such a variety of people playing and things to do regardless of your skill, you dont feel like you are just wasting your time at earlier skill levels. There really isnt "grinding" unless you are just mining nonstop for money. Give the trial another shot, go through the tutorial and just roll with it. It still isnt for everybody, but its definitely a different experience than every other MMORPG out there.
 
Elias said:
I think the reason games today aren't made as difficult as some NES games were is that they want to make them fun. I realize its not an MMO, but has anyone here actually seen the ending of TMNT on the NES? That isn't fun, and noone likes to be stuck in the same area for a long time because its too hard.
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I would agree that it is important to make a game "fun", but fun is different than what it used to be, I find myself loading up those games more often than say, Oblivion where I am only level 7 and I feel damn near invincible already or even WoW, where it's like oh what do we do for this fight? Oh the tank stands here and he tanks, the offtank stands there in case the mt loses aggro and the healers stand out of LOS of the mob... My roommate is constantly telling me how these fights require strategy and thinking and that's why he loves raiding those end game raids, and I have gone on them as well and have spent quite a bit of time playing many different roles in the end-game content, and the guild that we are in constantly brags how hardcore they are. But the fight is exactly the same as the first people who did it, and we are using the exact same strategy as thousands of other people with just mild variations on different bosses. People think somehow this is Hardcore gaming, but it isn't, this is the new breed of gaming where people want everything nownownow without much challenge.

I remember when the new Shinobi game came out and people were rating it bad simply because it was hard and there weren't enough save points or whatever, but part of a game is the challenge. We're living in a world where people pay $15 for the strategy guide for every game they own and search the internet for cheat codes so that they can win even in games that are just rediculously easy.

I guess my thought is that fun is different for different people, and because of that we end up with watered down, beaten corpses of a game that are meant to make the majority of people happy in order to make the most money, instead of working on ways to make truly enjoyable games for all sorts of people.
 
NOTHING can touch UO PreTrammel. Nothing.

I had more fun mining for days, and days, and staring at people as they walked around me wondering if they were going to attack me, than I do playing ANY mmog nowadays.

omg i miss the game so much.

the UO community was just insane

The game was COMPETITIVE.

I could make a mage, who wields a poison carrying kryss, whose ALSO a blacksmith

You had to balance your characters skills, it wasnt this hit level 10 and get a point crap.

It was fun watching skills instantly raise from 0.01-29.00 and then just stop

It was FUN sitting in trinsic/yew/etc banging on training dummies with your fists or your newbie dagger

It was fun actually skinning stuff

ugh, that game was IMMERSIVE, which no MMORPG nowadays is.

I played WOW with guys at work, and all we did was run around completing quests.. Guess what, UO only had "quests" when 1; GMs or 2; PLAYERS made them!

The cheesy generic one-quest-fits-all-races/classes quests ruin the community, IMO.

I need to check out eve, although Im not a huge space person.
 
the WORST thing about modern day MMOs is.... INSTANCES!!

Instances ruin the whole concept of what an MMO is, a one world we all share together as a community.. games like CoH, EQ2, WoW all have these stupid things called instances.
 
Tetrahedron said:
the WORST thing about modern day MMOs is.... INSTANCES!!

Instances ruin the whole concept of what an MMO is, a one world we all share together as a community.. games like CoH, EQ2, WoW all have these stupid things called instances.
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yup.

I want an MMORPG to feel like a WORLD; not a GAME.
 
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