TechLarry
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Microsoft Tweaking Windows 8 for Upcoming Beta Release
- Thread starter CommanderFrank
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wonderfield
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People might experiment. Beyond that, I don't think there's going to be much interest. Hobbyists will probably be more intrigued by small, low-cost ARM devices running open source platforms (like the Pi) and develop interesting applications for those.
sfsuphysics
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"We", you work for Microsoft?
Either way, here's an operating system that's about to be replaced, it's 2+ years old, which while not that old in terms of software, has more than recouped its development costs by now (and probably many times over, including updates). Hell if anything Valve (Steam) has shown time and again that if you heavily discount software even old stuff, you'll make much more profit due to sheer volume of sales. Looking at camelegg as a reference, Win7 dropped a grand total of $5 since it came out.
Ur_Mom
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So, you're going to avoid it until you see a hot PC, then say "WHO CARES!".
Windows 8 looks like a great OS to me. Even on ARM (which has been rumored to emulate x86 apps - slower of course, but they will work).
As far as Mac pricing vs. Windows pricing. I think a lot of it is due to the hardware prices included. You are paying more for the Mac hardware. Yes, I like the Mac hardware, it's build very top notch. You can get a high end PC/Laptop for a bit cheaper, but OSX isn't officially supported. I'm running OSX on a Thinkpad T410 and it works great. With the Mac, they get their extra cash when they sell hardware. Microsoft is mostly a software company (minus Xbox, etc.) - they are selling the OS to put on any machine that will run it. It isn't limited to only THEIR hardware.
Tawnos
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Yes, as do a number of [H] forum members.
Newegg has had pretty stable pricing, but the price certainly has fluctuated beyond what you will find there. E.g. when Win7 was released there were a lot of major discounts available for the direct download.
I don't think the Valve comparison is apt. There, you're comparing a lot of things competing for your attention, some you may never even use. That doesn't translate to operating systems.
chinesepiratefood
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#1 just isn't true, the task bar is 100% there.
#4 I believe the second half of that is false. You can install the developer preview on an x86 windows 7 slate and everything is functional.
Microsoft is gathering up the feedback from initial testers and making changes to the beta of Windows 8 due to be released toward the end of February. Get it right guys or youll be hearing choruses of Windows 8 is just another Vista sung to the beat of it sucks, it sucks.
Given that Microsoft hasn't moved one ioata from their position of trying to "unify" the Tablet + Traditional Desktop interface under what is possibly the worst interface since... well... Gnome... it won't matter what changes they make to the upcoming Beta release. The fundamental design approach shoves Windows 8 into a digital stone-age and no amount of feedback will change outright idiocy on the part of the Microsoft employees driving that design approach.
Seriously: there is a point at which people just need to "man-up" and tell the Emperor he ain't got no clothes. Windows 8 is a disaster just on concepts alone. Period. Stop. End of Story.
Ashbringer
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You serious? There maybe some faith left in Microsoft yet.
DeathPrincess
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Yup. The more I play around with it the more annoying it is. The stupid metro screen is most of it. Not being able to hit start and type a few letters is amazingly irritating. Theres no one button accesable search function. It's just crap.
Still don't know what will benefit the desktop (aka the vast vast majoirty of the market) by unifying it with something with totally different UI. It just seems to mess it up and make the experience worse. They should just have a decent normal desktop, and then windows 8 touch, or tablet or something. Like with XP Tablet PC edition...
Nooo! death to the fad! For all the people buying them, you barely ever see one being used...
Unknown-One
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Huh? What are you talking about? Search works the same way it did in Windows 7.
Tap the Windows key on your keyboard (Start Screen appears) and start typing. It'll automatically flip into search mode.
chrispycrunch
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The feedback on W8 is the opposite to tone what other major sites are reporting (eg engadget).
1. ARM is going to be a nightmare for MS. Will MS market W8 on ARM differently ie not capable to do x86?
2. A price over $100 is too high for an OS. Mac OS is "cheaper"...but NOT with TCO (total cost of ownership). Why doesn't MS just sell W8 for $50, then charge annual maintenance?
3. "Marketplace" for desktop is silly. Is this even working for Linux? Markets should just stay for mobile devices only.
1. ARM is going to be a nightmare for MS. Will MS market W8 on ARM differently ie not capable to do x86?
2. A price over $100 is too high for an OS. Mac OS is "cheaper"...but NOT with TCO (total cost of ownership). Why doesn't MS just sell W8 for $50, then charge annual maintenance?
3. "Marketplace" for desktop is silly. Is this even working for Linux? Markets should just stay for mobile devices only.
wonderfield
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It seems to be working out alright for Apple. I haven't seen any numbers, but the Mac App Store's still around, and more developers are putting their wares up on it with each passing day.
It doesn't really matter if it doesn't 'work', though. Devs can't sell their Metro apps through any other channel: it's the Windows Marketplace or it's nothing. Microsoft will force it to 'work' if they have to, even if it ends up killing Metro completely (which it might).
heatlesssun
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I think a lot of people believe if they just keep saying this that it will be true. The truth of the matter is that Windows 8 will do everything that Windows 7 does and have a touch touch capable UI with an app store. These doom and gloom predictions were made of Office 2007 when the ribbon came out and those all proved to be, well wrong.
The key to Windows 8's success are Metro apps, lots of goods ones that work well on a variety of devices, desktops, laptops, tablets both x86 and ARM, the less of a problem people will have with Metro. And the thing is once you launch a desktop apps, there is ZERO difference between Windows 7 and 8 on x86, unless you count the differences in Windows Explorer.
I think Microsoft has thought about this a lot and figured that this is was the best way to get Windows onto tablets while retaining 100% backwards compatibility and I think it was the right call. Ivy Bridge Windows 8 tablets, at least the x86 ones, don't have any real limitations on the software side and even ARM ones might see a lot more desktop programs than were envisioning, Windows 8 ARM devices support the classic desktop.
Maybe Windows 8 will be a disaster but its the most complex and capable desktop, laptop, tablet OS ever, it's hard at this point to know just what all of the complexity and capability will actually bring.
chinesepiratefood
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Yup. The more I play around with it the more annoying it is. The stupid metro screen is most of it. Not being able to hit start and type a few letters is amazingly irritating. Theres no one button accesable search function. It's just crap.
Still don't know what will benefit the desktop (aka the vast vast majoirty of the market) by unifying it with something with totally different UI. It just seems to mess it up and make the experience worse. They should just have a decent normal desktop, and then windows 8 touch, or tablet or something. Like with XP Tablet PC edition...
Nooo! death to the fad! For all the people buying them, you barely ever see one being used...
As unknown-one has already said, this is just wrong wrong wrong.
sfsuphysics
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For the purposes of "fairness" I purposefully ignored things like those discounts, not everyone is a student, etc, and it doesn't really represent the "anytime I want to buy it" price. Hell I bought a copy for $30, which less than a year later the copy went belly up, so you could say I bought a CD/activation key for $30
Fair enough, however that said, I'm guessing non-OEM sales are dwindling. Then again, the end user who buys a copy most likely isn't MS big cash cow computer to the large computer pre-installed bundler packs.
DeathPrincess
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So hiding a feature makes it just as user friendly? No text or any indication of this. Thats pretty much a failure as a UI.
Monkey God
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Maybe I am old school, or just plain old, but I don't want a tablet or phone OS on my desktops. I love Window 7 as is, even with a handful of flaws. However I have never gotten used to the office ribbon and don't want to, and I will not use an OS that forces me to that kind of UI.
chrispycrunch
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MS can't afford to stay put on W7. Sales stagnated, and consumers aren't even upgrading from XP to W7 at a rate that is satisfactory to MS. W7 did succeed in surpassing the number of XP users though.
What does MS do? Do a W8 that supports both metro UI and the traditional W7? Maybe. Maybe the way to go is to support both.
What about HP's ALL-in-one? There's potential there. To have a consumer-friendly PC that's much like what MAC did with its all-in-one desktop.
Really...what I think needs dummyproofing is the sharing and vertical integration of a user's data across all devices Microsoft. For you and I..."sky drive" works. Dropbox works. But the set-up has to be seamless and easy. That's what matters most.
Then please inform the UI development team of the following;
Metro on Touch interface devices is amazing. Metro on non touch interface devices as the default ui (see 24" wide screen desktop) is a complete waste of desktop space and alienating to both the average user and power users. It should be an option for those that want it, but not the default unless the device is a touchscreen. Right now as it stands Win8 is setup to receive the same "warm and fuzzy" reception that Vista got. I don't really think MS wants to redesign and relaunch Win 8 like they had to do with Vista.
It is a computer and not a cellphone after-all, even though that particular distinction is getting more blurry these days.
Windows 8 has some pretty cool features coming down the pipe, but they're mostly minor. The MS Engineers (PFEs) I know pointed out the following:
1) Hyper-V on workstation hardware. Much nicer than Virtual PC if you ask me.
2) Improved hybrid-sleep / hibernation in place of shutdown, for faster booting.
3) ReFS (not on launch day but supposedly coming by SP1), no idea if it can be used as a system volume yet, but who knows what the future holds.
4) Updated elements of Windows Explorer, Task Manager, Welcome Screen, Lock Screen, etc. which have been sorely lacking for the last decade. New copy dialog alone is almost worth the price of entry to me.
5) Updated licensing model has been implied, but no official line on this yet. ("Just wait" they tell me)
6) Metro UI applications integrate extremely well with one another, so information in one app can be extended by other apps seamlessly. Contact information, filesystem information, scheduling, really anything.
7) Hardware Acceleration of WASAPI. Since Vista, the audio subsystem has executed in userspace, not in the kernel, which is more secure. Side effect is, can't hardware accelerate any audio subsystems that talk natively (WASAPI or DirectSound), meaning DS3D / EAX or similar. Only solution so far has been to bypass the entire audio subsystem and talk to the hardware directly: OpenAL. For a while, it was going nicely, but development of OpenAL itself has been stalled for some time, and few applications are implementing it these days. Most are using software audio toolkits to achieve similar results. Win8 fixes all this by allowing the audio subsystem to be accelerated without moving it back to Kernel-space. This is HUGE if you ask me.
My personal criticisms:
1) The Metro UI feels like someone is trying to hold my hand. I don't need a UI for arranging sliced-up webpage-style applications, and I really don't need gesture-based input.
2) I need more improvements to keyboard-based input, like the ability to perform more basic functions via hotkeys. Fix the Win+Arrow keys to work under multiple monitors, for example.
3) All fancy wackiness needs to be optional. Only fundamental improvements should be permanent (new copy dialog, etc.) If I have zero use for Metro, I want to be able to complete disable (or ideally, uninstall) the entire feature.
4) Pricing isn't guaranteed to drop, but really should.
Stuff I'd love to see:
1) Media Library functions that are independent of Windows Media Player, or Windows Media Center, yet are natively enabled to work in WMP / WMC. The Library folders were a good start, let's keep it going. Add native DLNA support that doesn't require WMP / WMC. Allow an open API for other media software to leverage the integral Media Library.
2) If the model changes, and the retail price is decreased below $60, I'd be happy to pay an annual Live-style fee ($50 or something) to cover the costs of patch development & distribution, new features, basic customer service without a premier support contract, etc. I would like this fee to cover multiple systems, however.
3) Include a license to virtualize the same OS within that OS at no cost, and / or a license to virtualize all older OSes (win3.1-95-98-ME-2000-XP-Vista-7 MODE). This would ELIMINATE backwards compatibility issues at a near-zero cost. Especially since Hyper-V with IOMMU (aka VT-d) allows virtualized OSes to execute at near native speed, using actual native hardware.
1) Hyper-V on workstation hardware. Much nicer than Virtual PC if you ask me.
2) Improved hybrid-sleep / hibernation in place of shutdown, for faster booting.
3) ReFS (not on launch day but supposedly coming by SP1), no idea if it can be used as a system volume yet, but who knows what the future holds.
4) Updated elements of Windows Explorer, Task Manager, Welcome Screen, Lock Screen, etc. which have been sorely lacking for the last decade. New copy dialog alone is almost worth the price of entry to me.
5) Updated licensing model has been implied, but no official line on this yet. ("Just wait" they tell me)
6) Metro UI applications integrate extremely well with one another, so information in one app can be extended by other apps seamlessly. Contact information, filesystem information, scheduling, really anything.
7) Hardware Acceleration of WASAPI. Since Vista, the audio subsystem has executed in userspace, not in the kernel, which is more secure. Side effect is, can't hardware accelerate any audio subsystems that talk natively (WASAPI or DirectSound), meaning DS3D / EAX or similar. Only solution so far has been to bypass the entire audio subsystem and talk to the hardware directly: OpenAL. For a while, it was going nicely, but development of OpenAL itself has been stalled for some time, and few applications are implementing it these days. Most are using software audio toolkits to achieve similar results. Win8 fixes all this by allowing the audio subsystem to be accelerated without moving it back to Kernel-space. This is HUGE if you ask me.
My personal criticisms:
1) The Metro UI feels like someone is trying to hold my hand. I don't need a UI for arranging sliced-up webpage-style applications, and I really don't need gesture-based input.
2) I need more improvements to keyboard-based input, like the ability to perform more basic functions via hotkeys. Fix the Win+Arrow keys to work under multiple monitors, for example.
3) All fancy wackiness needs to be optional. Only fundamental improvements should be permanent (new copy dialog, etc.) If I have zero use for Metro, I want to be able to complete disable (or ideally, uninstall) the entire feature.
4) Pricing isn't guaranteed to drop, but really should.
Stuff I'd love to see:
1) Media Library functions that are independent of Windows Media Player, or Windows Media Center, yet are natively enabled to work in WMP / WMC. The Library folders were a good start, let's keep it going. Add native DLNA support that doesn't require WMP / WMC. Allow an open API for other media software to leverage the integral Media Library.
2) If the model changes, and the retail price is decreased below $60, I'd be happy to pay an annual Live-style fee ($50 or something) to cover the costs of patch development & distribution, new features, basic customer service without a premier support contract, etc. I would like this fee to cover multiple systems, however.
3) Include a license to virtualize the same OS within that OS at no cost, and / or a license to virtualize all older OSes (win3.1-95-98-ME-2000-XP-Vista-7 MODE). This would ELIMINATE backwards compatibility issues at a near-zero cost. Especially since Hyper-V with IOMMU (aka VT-d) allows virtualized OSes to execute at near native speed, using actual native hardware.
Trepidati0n
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Is that what you say to the kids when they are on your lawn?
My guess is in 5 years you won't be using a computer anymore since nearly everyone is moving to the ribbon long term. Sorry, the ribbon is fantastic for the average user. Office 2010 really did a nice job. While I am still in habbit of hitting Alt-P...click a bunch of things to print the document the way I want it, the guided method in office 2010 isn't bad if not enjoyable.Is that what you say to the kids when they are on your lawn?
Correction, The ribbon is fantastic for Everyone who actually uses their computer. I am a tech and a hardcore office user and the ribbon interface is overwhelmingly superior to the old menu. Sure I will argue against pointless garbage like metro, but the ribbon I agree is a flat out improvement.
heatlesssun
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There is no wasted space with the new Start Screen. It pops up and closes EXACTLY like the Start Menu. Wile one can generally see most of the desktop with the Start Menu up, once you click on the desktop the Start Menu collapses, this is exactly the same with the Start Screen. Not only that you can see SO MUCH more of the system using the full screen instead of a tiny menu.
The Windows desktop is just old and tired. Not to say that it's bad but Windows needs something different to be infused into to get attention. Windows is becoming the thing that dad uses at work, it's not fun and interesting anymore to the average person. Maybe Metro won't succeed but again, what everyone that slams Metro is missing is that there will ben an entire new generation of programs and apps. Yes, Metro apps are full screen and similar to phones and tablets and sandboxed but they actually have a lot more capability available to them running on a fully featured OS.
Monkey God
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I use my computer all the time, I work as a systems administrator. (My primary focus is Microsoft CRM of all things). I only use Office sparingly. When I do, I can never find anything outside of basic file and font functions...because I don't use it enough to commit it to memory.
It may work for hard core office users, but many of us are not hard core office users. I spent a little bit of time in dozens of applications. SQL Management Studio, Visual Studio, Office, IE/Sharepoint, notepad, configuring config files, or editing XML files, etc, blah blah. All of these things have different UI's. However, with the exception of Office, I can navigate them very well without having to remember a ribbon-style interface. Fortunately for me, when I am in Office, like Outlook or Excel, I only need basic functions and don't need to digging around to look for them. When I have to, I get frustrated and just use help to find the shortcut link.
heatlesssun
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This doesn't make any sense to me. The ribbon is a hierarchical structure like classic menus, there's no more memorization involved with a ribbon setup than there would be for a conventional drop down menu, plus the ribbon can stay expanded. Not only that but in Office 2010 you can create your own tabs with whatever functions you want and even change the existing ones, it's completely customizable.
Monkey God
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I dont know. Every older standard app has stuff categorized in a fairly straightforward manner. File, Edit, View, Window, Help? Right now, Ive got a 13 year old Paint Shop Pro Window open, a 2008 SQL SMS window, IE 8, UltraEdit, Foobar, Explorer, MS Communicator, and a handful of RDP sessions. They ALL look consistent. They all have a similar UI layout. I go into Access or Excel, and I cant find shit.
Maybe I am old, and set in my ways. I more interesting in getting work done quickly with the least amount of "where do I find shit again?"
heatlesssun
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I think what you're expressing is at the heart of the controversy of Metro, all people are resistant to change, it's just a matter of which changes. I'm the type of person that just just remember where stuff is, it's all instinct and experience. The Ribbon is Office 2010 is very well laid out I think and it can always remain visible if necessary, can be a space hog on a laptop screen, much less of an issue on a 1080P or larger display, so on my desktops I leave the ribbon expanded and it helps to remember where things are when i use my laptops where I tend to keep the Ribbon collapsed. And again, the it's completely customizable.
Please don't compare the Ribbon to metro. The ribbon makes everything easier to find (you realize this of course). I don't know what the other guy is going on about, I have been using Windows and office since their earliest versions and I can find things on the office ribbon far faster then I ever could in the old menus. Metro on the other hand doesn't make anything easier to find. It is a convoluted mess on the desktop and adds nothing to the experience. More "apps" than the developer build had aren't going to help it. Those are just going to clutter it up even more.
The windows desktop is old and tired? Quit using the same background. Much like the ribbon is customizable if you get bored with the desktop you can just change it. I am not resistant to change, I celebrated the move from the XP style ui to Vista/7. It was a huge improvement in things that needed improving. I spent years using things like Blackbox, Stardock and Rainmeter to reinvent my desktop. Metro simply makes the user experience a huge pita, it adds nothing of value on a standard non-touch interface computer.
Again..Metro on Touch-interface devices = amazing. On anything else though it is a burden. Either way though my argument is not for them to get rid of it. There are some people who may like it. Those people are going to be the minority though and as such it needs to be offered as an option not as a default. I support close to a thousand users in my offices who range from reasonably savvy to extremely basic. The change in UI from XP to 7 when I made the switch was difficult enough for the overwhelming majority of them to grasp. The change from anything to 8 if metro is the default is just going to cause them to revolt.
heatlesssun
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The reason why I compare the Ribbon to Metro is the level of vocal resistance to both and history I think has shown that the Ribbon has worked out pretty well.
I'll have to seen the Windows 8 Beta, now slated to be called the Consumer Preview to make my final judgment, but from the standpoint of launching apps the Start Screen isn't a burden at all. I can launch from the task bar, and put other apps at the beginning of the Start Screen and launching via typing works the same as in Windows 7.
In the DP biggest issues with keyboards and mice are things that are simply broken and there's no grouping in the Start Screen.
Admittedly my view of it is different than most. Being a long time Tablet PC user the idea of using the same apps the same way across different devices and input methods is EXACTLY the way it should work. Different programs on this device, different UI on that device, I hate that. 100% interoperability using the input device for the situation be it a keyboard, mouse, pen our touch. I don't see a tablet of a laptop or a desktop a see a computer and I just them all to work the same and use the same programs, the input method should be irrelevant as much as possible.
But yes, part of Metro is to do something new in Windows. The world is simply moving to tablets, they now outsell desktops in retail. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft is going to piss off millions with Metro, the gamble here is to gain tens of millions more users on devices Windows simply doesn't have any real presence on. This is the right thing to do for Microsoft and Windows and ultimately as the world moves more and more to tablets and mobile devices the right thing for customers. And the bottom line is that Windows 8 is 100% backwards compatible with existing desktop applications.
RealityCrunch
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Hmm, if they can get the same UI equally efficient for all uses across multiple display sizes (from a 6" screen to a 32" screen), devices (from a phone to a desktop) and input methods (from touch to keyboard and mouse), then I agree
Monkey God
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Change merely for the sake of change makes people cranky. Change that makes sense is more easily embraced. If Microsoft thinks they can have just one OS that works on phones, tablets and desktops, they have A LOT of work ahead of them. Apple manages it because people who use Apple products have different needs and requirements than PC users.
This I agree with. However that said, Apple does not have the same OS on all their devices. Their iPhone/iPad devices use differing versions of iOS while the laptops and desktops use MacOS. They are not the same platform, but they do share some similarities. I know I don't object to MS trying to get some consistency across various platforms, but like you said change for the sake of change is bad. Metro simply doesn't make sense on certain devices just the same as iOS doesn't make sense on certain devices.
Also as a note, the fact that mouse and keyboard functionality for the Dev preview for win 8 was absolutely abysmal should tell you something. Something as basic as a mouse and keyboard should be a function that always works without fail at this point. The reality is we got a mobile OS being ported onto desktops and laptops. I personally find this just as inane as gamers find console ports to PC terrible. Same general principle.
heatlesssun
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Metro regardless of how one feels about it is far for change for the sake of change. I know I'm biased as think most early adopters and technical people tend to be, the question is what will the average Windows user think and how many Windows users will use Windows on ARM devices and tablets including x86 ones?
I know you think that Metro and the Ribbon in Office aren't similar but there's a LOT of commonality there. The Ribbon was routinely criticized for taking up too much space, looking childish, being too jarring of a change and too inefficient. Sound familiar? And none other than Steven Sinofsky was the head of Office group at the time when the Ribbon was introduced in Office 2007.
Sure there are plenty of differences as well between the Ribbon and Metro but the core issue is the same. How do you inject a radical UI change into an old and wildly successful product and continue to have a wildly successful product? Sinfosky does have some experience with this dilemma. And again, Metro apps, Metro apps, Metro apps. Windows 8 is going to launch with a MINIMUM of 10,000 I bet, heck Windows Phone 7 launched with 2,000 so 10,000 for Windows 8 is probably on the low side. People are going to see PCs the fall that indeed look like phones and tablets and run apps that delight them, only many of them will be bigger and faster and have a few more bells and whistles all while running their old desktop programs. Windows 8 may fail but the number and quality of Metro will be key in however Windows 8 goes.
Is that what you say to the kids when they are on your lawn?
Five years from now I will still be using Win7. But I am sure Microsoft will try to force me to downgrade by removing support for Win7 and they will get game developers to make false claims that you need to run Win8 to play their latest pile of crap.