Microsoft backs down on Windows 11 changes

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1_rick

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https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...key-support-rolls-back-file-explorer-changes/

The new Insider build also adds support for Unicode 15 emoji, a few changes to Windows' location-based time zone setting, and a handful of fixes. But most notably for people who complained about last week's Insider build, Microsoft has rolled back proposed changes that would have removed several relatively obscure settings from the Folder Options window in the File Explorer.

"As is normal for the Dev Channel, we will often try things out and get feedback and adjust based on the feedback we receive," wrote Microsoft's Amanda Langowski and Brandon LeBlanc in a post detailing the new build's changes.

The hodgepodge of different menu styles is a longstanding complaint about Windows—Windows 11 has gone a long way toward making the interface more modern and consistent on the surface, but you only need to go a layer or two deep in a lot of places before you run into some old menu that looks essentially the same way it did back in Windows 95. But when Microsoft attempts to change or remove some of these elements, it invariably triggers a backlash from the handful of users who apparently find these settings essential. It's one reason Windows 11 still includes all of the Windows XP- and Vista-era Control Panel items, even though the Settings app can perform most of the same functions.
Click to expand...

Note that snotty last paragraph--you dinosaurs who aren't up with an ever-changing UI should be ashamed for insisting Microsoft not get rid of the Control Panel before they get around to moving all the functionality into Settings (a proces that's been going on for 11 years now, and shows no sign of ever being finished.)
 
1_rick said:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...key-support-rolls-back-file-explorer-changes/



Note that snotty last paragraph--you dinosaurs who aren't up with an ever-changing UI should be ashamed for insisting Microsoft not get rid of the Control Panel before they get around to moving all the functionality into Settings (a proces that's been going on for 11 years now, and shows no sign of ever being finished.)
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's bullshit. They didn't just move things around or change font sizes or something. They removed things that can be of critical importance to some people.

That said, I hate non-intuitive UI changes. I don't mind a little facelift when everything is mostly in the same place and it doesn't disrupt your work, but when they go fuck with something just for the sake of fucking with it, without any improvement to usability that breaks a 25 year old paradigm of how things should work, it fills me with blind rage.

In general lots of thought should go into initial UI design, because once you release it you really shouldn't touch it again. At least not without really good reason.

And this is an area where ALL the major OS/software/Website creators fail these days. It's like no one studies Human Factors Engineering.

I don't care how pretty it is. Optimize it from a human factors functionality perspective, and then leave it that way forever.
 
All that uproar about an insider build. I mean, that's what insider builds are for - to try out new features and sometimes radical changes, and get feedback. The feedback was quite negative to the changes, so Microsoft reverted them. Seems like the system is working as it is meant to here. But then, without Microsoft hate, half or more of the Internet tech media would disappear.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, that's bullshit. They didn't just move things around or change font sizes or something. They removed things that can be of critical importance to some people.

That said, I hate non-intuitive UI changes. I don't mind a little facelift when everything is mostly in the same place and it doesn't disrupt your work, but when they go fuck with something just for the sake of fucking with it, without any improvement to usability that breaks a 25 year old paradigm of how things should work, it fills me with blind rage.

In general lots of thought should go into initial UI design, because once you release it you really shouldn't touch it again. At least not without really good reason.

And this is an area where ALL the major OS/software/Website creators fail these days. It's like no one studies Human Factors Engineering.

I don't care how pretty it is. Optimize it from a human factors functionality perspective, and then leave it that way forever.
Click to expand...
This is where I do love linux - the split of user experience with the backend.

I have a totally modern kernel. And yes, my UI paradigm is purposefully frozen in time, because it just worked and was fine (LXDE et all in my case).
 
Windows 11 has gone a long way toward making the interface more modern
Click to expand...
"shitty and flat"
old menu that looks essentially the same way it did back in Windows 95
Click to expand...
"efficient and functional"
But when Microsoft attempts to change or remove some of these elements, it invariably triggers a backlash from the handful of users who apparently find these settings essential. It's one reason Windows 11 still includes all of the Windows XP- and Vista-era Control Panel items, even though the Settings app can perform most of the same functions.
Click to expand...
"most" aka "it's still shit after all these years with multiple features missing but look how phoneified touchy touchy it is"
 
1_rick said:
Note that snotty last paragraph--you dinosaurs who aren't up with an ever-changing UI should be ashamed for insisting Microsoft not get rid of the Control Panel before they get around to moving all the functionality into Settings (a proces that's been going on for 11 years now, and shows no sign of ever being finished.)
Click to expand...

I like how Windows 11 still shows the Windows 7 Backup and Restore in the control panel. They've really worked hard on collecting our data improving the UI.
 
I hate that double clicking an icon and right clicking that same icon and selecting open can and will bring up different versions of the interface with different functionality.
 
LigTasm said:
I like how Windows 11 still shows the Windows 7 Backup and Restore in the control panel. They've really worked hard on collecting our data improving the UI.
Click to expand...
Agreed! They have spent tons of resources to harvest user data but they failed to update the several settings windows that have different UIs. Pretty pathetic and amateur looking.
 
LigTasm said:
I like how Windows 11 still shows the Windows 7 Backup and Restore in the control panel. They've really worked hard on collecting our data improving the UI.
Click to expand...
But at least it still works.
I’ve had to use it and I’m thankful it’s there.
I have a GPO that configures all the desktops to do backups to a Buffalo NAS, it won’t protect against anything malicious but it’s a solid OMGWTFDidyoudo??? Recovery option.
 
Lakados said:
But at least it still works.
I’ve had to use it and I’m thankful it’s there.
I have a GPO that configures all the desktops to do backups to a Buffalo NAS, it won’t protect against anything malicious but it’s a solid OMGWTFDidyoudo??? Recovery option.
Click to expand...

Lets be realistic, how much would it cost to have an intern slap that 7 around and make it an 11?
 
OutOfPhase said:
This is where I do love linux - the split of user experience with the backend.

I have a totally modern kernel. And yes, my UI paradigm is purposefully frozen in time, because it just worked and was fine (LXDE et all in my case).
Click to expand...

I love LXDE for light machines, like in VM's and containers.

The few servers I run on my KVM/LXC box that require GUI to manage all get custom LXDE installs on Ubuntu server edition under LXC, using X2Go to manage them remotely.

For my more capable desktops and laptops I have just moved on to Cinnamon. It is a nice usable desktop following roughly in the Win95/Gnome2 footsteps.

I guess you could accomplish somehting like spearating the UI from the Kernel in Windows as well, by running one of the many Classic-shell pieces of software maybe? Back in the Windows 8 days they were all the rage, but I don't know if any of them are good anymore, and I am a lot more cautious about installing random "free" software these days than I used to be.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
That said, I hate non-intuitive UI changes. I don't mind a little facelift when everything is mostly in the same place and it doesn't disrupt your work, but when they go fuck with something just for the sake of fucking with it, without any improvement to usability that breaks a 25 year old paradigm of how things should work, it fills me with blind rage.
Click to expand...
I blame Agile (somewhat)
 
Comment on the embedded link initially talking about the insider build made a good point: most of the power and advanced users probably at least turn off extended data collection, if not blocking telemetry services entirely. If that is the case, and Microsoft loves to excuse their decisions by citing their usage data, then it would make a lot of sense. In a roundabout way, maybe Microsoft is trying to tell us to leave all their data collection bullshit turned on so they don't take this stuff away.

I've been saying for quite a long time that data analysis would be the death of software. Take it from a data analyst :ROFLMAO:
 
But when Microsoft attempts to change or remove some of these elements, it invariably triggers a backlash from the handful of users who apparently find these settings essential.
Click to expand...

No, you whore, there's a backlash when Microsoft makes a change for the sake of change without any improvement to anything; and in many cases just ends up in a feature regression.

But to me, the weirdest thing here is Microsoft employees acting like the company they work for still gives a shit about Wndows at the highest levels. Who are they kidding? At best, Nadella tolerates windows.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, that's bullshit. They didn't just move things around or change font sizes or something. They removed things that can be of critical importance to some people.

That said, I hate non-intuitive UI changes. I don't mind a little facelift when everything is mostly in the same place and it doesn't disrupt your work, but when they go fuck with something just for the sake of fucking with it, without any improvement to usability that breaks a 25 year old paradigm of how things should work, it fills me with blind rage.

In general lots of thought should go into initial UI design, because once you release it you really shouldn't touch it again. At least not without really good reason.

And this is an area where ALL the major OS/software/Website creators fail these days. It's like no one studies Human Factors Engineering.

I don't care how pretty it is. Optimize it from a human factors functionality perspective, and then leave it that way forever.
Click to expand...
Since 10 Windows feels like someone started to develop a new UI on top of the old one, not in place of, and just gave up halfway throught the job. But instead of putting things back the way they were, they left it as is. With some options migrated to the god awful space waster settings app, while some remained parts of the gutted remnant of control panel. Now windows has two steering wheels, but neither works on its own, you have to make specific inputs on both to achieve what was previously part of a relatively consistent, well thought out system.

It's one reason Windows 11 still includes all of the Windows XP- and Vista-era Control Panel items, even though the Settings app can perform most of the same functions.
Click to expand...
No, it can't that's the exact point mr. moron. Microsoft removes the options from the control panel as soon as something similar pops up in settings, god forbid we have all related settings in one place. The goal is clearly to make the users frustrated enough to not even try finding or modifying these settings, just let big brothersoft be.
 
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LigTasm said:
Lets be realistic, how much would it cost to have an intern slap that 7 around and make it an 11?
Click to expand...
Pretty easy, but let's be honest for a second. It actually works really well, which means it's old, tired, and probably has the documentation of an Alibaba Stereo system, who knows what seemingly minor change would cause it to fail and somehow also catch fire.
They can leave that number alone, because the farther the current development and UI staff stay from it the better we all are.
 
DPI said:
No, you whore, there's a backlash when Microsoft makes a change for the sake of change without any improvement to anything; and in many cases just ends up in a feature regression.
Click to expand...
Click the link, look at the guy's picture. Ben Rhodes encapsulated it when he said (talking about political reporters especially, but it applies to lots of people) "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”"

In this article's author's case, that might not be completely fair, though, but his tone seems influenced by his age and relative lack of experience.
 
That last paragraph is hot garbage:
The hodgepodge of different menu styles is a longstanding complaint about Windows—Windows 11 has gone a long way toward making the interface more modern and consistent on the surface, but you only need to go a layer or two deep in a lot of places before you run into some old menu that looks essentially the same way it did back in Windows 95. But when Microsoft attempts to change or remove some of these elements, it invariably triggers a backlash from the handful of users who apparently find these settings essential. It's one reason Windows 11 still includes all of the Windows XP- and Vista-era Control Panel items, even though the Settings app can perform most of the same functions.
Click to expand...
Yes Microsoft, only most of the same functions, not ALL of them as it should be.
Microsoft has been migrating these functions to their new GUI settings since 2015 and it still is not complete.

Can't imagine why Windows 10 will be the next Windows 7 and Windows XP. :rolleyes:
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I guess you could accomplish somehting like spearating the UI from the Kernel in Windows as well, by running one of the many Classic-shell pieces of software maybe? Back in the Windows 8 days they were all the rage, but I don't know if any of them are good anymore, and I am a lot more cautious about installing random "free" software these days than I used to be.
Click to expand...
Windows is in a very weird spot in this regard.

You have Server Core, which really just doesn't include Explorer. You can still start a UI application and it'll (probably) work fine.

Then you have Nano Server which they've decided should just be completely headless and only run in containers... and has a bunch of limitations.

I do not miss Windows administration at all. Or Office 365s admin panel that is either randomly lagging like fucking crazy or getting a new design that literally halves the amount of information on screen because Microsoft thinks the entire screen being largely flat shaded and having a combined total of 3 colors then violently increasing the padding between everything is good UI.

PowerShell legit rocks compared to the dog water that is Bash, though, so at least there's that
 
Mazzspeed said:
The Windows Settings 'App' is one of the poorest uses of desktop real estate I have ever seen.
Click to expand...
I can honestly say it’s not the worst, but I’ve used OS2 and DB2 in actual production environments so my prospective is different than most. It’s good enough but there are a number of things I find so completely non intuitive that a younger person may look at and say “oh yeah that makes sense” but it’s like it’s trying to be an iOS menu without the actual design team behind iOS. It’s not poorly designed what it is is half-assed, which is a subtle but substantially different problem.
 
I would love to shed the last bit of Windows in my life but I play games on very rare occasions so Apple doesn't want me in the fruit cult.

Why won't you let me love you, Tim Apple?
 
OutOfPhase said:
This is where I do love linux - the split of user experience with the backend.

I have a totally modern kernel. And yes, my UI paradigm is purposefully frozen in time, because it just worked and was fine (LXDE et all in my case).
Click to expand...
Ya, ever since I went to linux as my main OS, I seem to not have to worry about this sort of crap. From Manjaro and Mint Linux, depending what I feel like, it does it all for me. If i need windows, i run it in a VM to do what I need.
 
This all seems like their age old problem. MS does not ask their customers what they want, they tell them what they want. Hasn't really worked out all these years, not sure why they think it will at some point. Definition of insanity.
 
I'm only familiar with the 'view system files' option because that comes in handy in IT. Occasionally we need to wipe out desktop.ini in a user's roaming profile, sure we could probably do it from command line, but the GUI option is useful while cleaning up that particular issue and needing to modify the registry to change that option would be annoying (and would it require a reboot or killing and restarting explorer to take effect since it's no longer a toggle?).

Bigbacon said:
I miss a task bar with text.....
Click to expand...
If you're talking about taskbar grouping, that option is supposed to be returning soon. Needing to expand a group to find the window I want is just another unnecessary click, I eagerly await its return.
 
Mazzspeed said:
Linux + Wine + DXVK + VKD3D = Win.
Click to expand...

I would love to spend more time getting a game to run than playing the game. Linux on the desktop is a novelty and a toy, nothing more. It cripples your PC as a platform and renders it a lesser machine, it lets the hardware run by removing most of the useful software that makes a platform convenient to use. Somebody needs to make a version of Linux that has all of the telemetry of a proper platform so they can refine its function and make it work for people who want to run Linux to do something other than fuck around with Linux.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
I would love to spend more time getting a game to run than playing the game. Linux on the desktop is a novelty and a toy, nothing more. It cripples your PC as a platform and renders it a lesser machine, it lets the hardware run by removing most of the useful software that makes a platform convenient to use. Somebody needs to make a version of Linux that has all of the telemetry of a proper platform so they can refine its function and make it work for people who want to run Linux to do something other than fuck around with Linux.
Click to expand...
Found the person who doesn't game on Linux. I've been doing it almost exclusive for over two years and I do little more than install games through Steam or Lutris and play. There are obviously some issues especially with anti-cheat software that hooks into the kernel since Linux doesn't allow that.
 
M76 said:
Since 10 Windows feels like someone started to develop a new UI on top of the old one, not in place of, and just gave up halfway throught the job. But instead of putting things back the way they were, they left it as is. With some options migrated to the god awful space waster settings app, while some remained parts of the gutted remnant of control panel. Now windows has two steering wheels, but neither works on its own, you have to make specific inputs on both to achieve what was previously part of a relatively consistent, well thought out system.


No, it can't that's the exact point mr. moron. Microsoft removes the options from the control panel as soon as something similar pops up in settings, god forbid we have all related settings in one place. The goal is clearly to make the users frustrated enough to not even try finding or modifying these settings, just let big brothersoft be.
Click to expand...

A big reason for the current dynamic is that you have two different target audiences. An increasing number of younger people need to be able to adjust things similar to how they do it on their phone or they can't figure it out (either because they are too dumb or because they don't care to even try if it's not spoon fed to them). And you also have people of all ages who are legitimately just not good at using computers who do also benefit from a "simple" settings interface. On the flip side you have people who need or benefit from all of the detailed options, and are smart enough or care enough to actually understand what those options do. Some options have been removed from the legacy control panel over time but there is in-fact still quite a bit of overlap.

I don't think that it would actually be a good thing to have "all settings in one place". That's an almost impossible task without either making things too complicated for novice/lazy/dumb users or removing extra functionality that is preferred by advanced users. I'm perfectly fine with having the Little-Tykes Settings app for the phone tards while leaving the Control Panel in the background for the rest of us.
 
socK said:
Windows is in a very weird spot in this regard.

You have Server Core, which really just doesn't include Explorer. You can still start a UI application and it'll (probably) work fine.

Then you have Nano Server which they've decided should just be completely headless and only run in containers... and has a bunch of limitations.

I do not miss Windows administration at all. Or Office 365s admin panel that is either randomly lagging like fucking crazy or getting a new design that literally halves the amount of information on screen because Microsoft thinks the entire screen being largely flat shaded and having a combined total of 3 colors then violently increasing the padding between everything is good UI.

PowerShell legit rocks compared to the dog water that is Bash, though, so at least there's that
Click to expand...
As clear as the grounds in Turkish coffee.
 
GotNoRice said:
A big reason for the current dynamic is that you have two different target audiences. An increasing number of younger people need to be able to adjust things similar to how they do it on their phone or they can't figure it out (either because they are too dumb or because they don't care to even try if it's not spoon fed to them). And you also have people of all ages who are legitimately just not good at using computers who do also benefit from a "simple" settings interface. On the flip side you have people who need or benefit from all of the detailed options, and are smart enough or care enough to actually understand what those options do. Some options have been removed from the legacy control panel over time but there is in-fact still quite a bit of overlap.

I don't think that it would actually be a good thing to have "all settings in one place". That's an almost impossible task without either making things too complicated for novice/lazy/dumb users or removing extra functionality that is preferred by advanced users. I'm perfectly fine with having the Little-Tykes Settings app for the phone tards while leaving the Control Panel in the background for the rest of us.
Click to expand...
It would be better to have one place for all settings, with an additional "I'm smart" or "I'm clueless" setting. Call it "your level of technical experience." Maybe as part of the OOBE settings.

Guys like us who are technically astute are the informal support people for everyone else.;)
 
The control panel can have a standard or advanced settings tab, which is not that uncommon, upcoming better AI companion could make all that talk quite obsolete, it will feed you the powershell command prompt to do what you do without having to find the options and go out of your terminal.
 
LukeTbk said:
The control panel can have a standard or advanced settings tab, which is not that uncommon, upcoming better AI companion could make all that talk quite obsolete, it will feed you the powershell command prompt to do what you do without having to find the options and go out of your terminal.
Click to expand...

I think this is too fragile to work. Too easy to foot gun yourself.

This is going to commonly veer into just editing registry keys.
 
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