Is it ethical to use a public forum for monitor promotion?

A

albovin

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,653
Sorry to say that but IMO the sitiation we have with the BenQ V2400W coverage went beyond something.

Several forum members have received monitors from the manufacturer to publish their impressions in this forum.
These limited to a particular model topics now become "sticky".

I have a couple of questions to those forum members:
1. Did you pay for the monitor?
2. Are you supposed to return the monitor after testing?

If both answers are NO, I would like to express my disrespect to those forum members who let involve themselves in this process.
If both answers are NO, I revoke all positive remarks I've made about those reviews.

Opinions?
 
Maybe the sticky is a little in bad form, but the monitor product line seems to be highly regarded so there is quite a bit of interest in the new revision which could justify the sticky anyway.

If the users had some site or reasonable expectation of being able to do some offer like this again, I might object but this seems like a one-time thing based on user merits. Yes, BenQ had the opportunity to pick people who seem to like their products, but after reading a good deal of 10e's posts, he lists FAR more than anyone could reasonably expect and answers any questions about the product. (good or bad)

Maybe I'm a little biased here too since I just received my G2400W in the mail yesterday (love it so far) and spent the night finally being able to play my ps3 since I bought it the previous Thursday...
 
albovin said:
I have a couple of questions to those forum members:

1. Did you pay for the monitor?
2. Are you supposed to return the monitor after testing?
Click to expand...

1.) I believe they did as this was mentioned when the review selection was posted. I think it was $149

2.) They could return it if they wanted but could also opt to buy it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Belgain Roffles said:
Maybe the sticky is a little in bad form, but the monitor product line seems to be highly regarded so there is quite a bit of interest in the new revision which could justify the sticky anyway.

If the users had some site or reasonable expectation of being able to do some offer like this again, I might object but this seems like a one-time thing based on user merits. Yes, BenQ had the opportunity to pick people who seem to like their products, but after reading a good deal of 10e's posts, he lists FAR more than anyone could reasonably expect and answers any questions about the product. (good or bad)

Maybe I'm a little biased here too since I just received my G2400W in the mail yesterday (love it so far) and spent the night finally being able to play my ps3 since I bought it the previous Thursday...
Click to expand...

Yes, 10e review covers everything what a professional review must cover (except for response time ang input lag), in some areas it covers more than "professional" reviews actually cover.

The problem is that reviews have more value when regular products are tested, not selected by a manufacturer.

Another note to your post is that there were and there are other monitors with high public interest.

Finally, this is how marketing works, it doesn't just respond to demand, it creates demand.
So now we are working hard on making demand high. If anyone comes up with a question, we can answer that we just respond to high demand.
 
albovin said:
Finally, this is how marketing works, it doesn't just respond to demand, it creates demand.
So now we are working hard on making demand high. If anyone comes up with a question, we can answer that we just respond to high demand.
Click to expand...

The point I was making is that demand was already high. Yes it may increase demand further, but that is not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Here we are getting MUCH more information on a monitor than we can wrestle out of many other manufacturers, giving consumers much more choice in the end. Yes there is potential for abuse (misinformation lies, higher quality first revisions [dell], etc...), but in a highly visible and rare situation, the chances of such abuse are much lower.

As is, I don't really know any location but here to get informed opinions on monitors. Professional reviews basically regurgitate the listed "specs" and you're lucky if they can tell the difference between a TN panel and VA or IPS. That brings me to a statement that I would be happy if more manufacturers did this. Of course if it was again a common occurrence, I think much more restrictive standards should be in place. (And this forum would definitely NOT be the location of choice.)
 
The govt, the media, hardware review websites, everything is rigged. I think the dirtbags that run the bait and switch tv stores out of New Jersey / New York run AVS forum. They deleted my post warning people about NJ/NY internet TV stores. If you look them up, they all have scandalous business bureau ratings, accused of selling refurbed/damaged products or just plain ripping people off with things like credit card fraud. Look on Nextag, they will always be the cheapest ones, if you actually order something they call you immediately trying to sell you $100 HDMI cables and don't even ship your order, it's insane.
 
Are you kidding? Do you like to kicking puppies too? Everything about these reviews were above the board. After [H]ardOCP picked folks to review this monitor did you expect them not to make their reviews stickies? Talk about pointless criticism.

The fact is 10e's review was very thorough, well written and was better than 95% of the monitor reviews. As for him receiving a copy from the manufacturer, how do you think reviews get done? Do you think reviewers pay for their samples?

There was nothing unethical about this process, it was transparent and public. Given the effort that 10e put into that review without pay, you should be ashamed for throwing stones.:mad:
 
It is ethical as long as it is clearely identified as a promotion with the manfacture. It looks like that is true in this case.

I do think the sticky is pushing it too far though.

Dave
 
I'd say if other monitor makers could not have he same opportunities such as admins' backing with the promo or the sticky, then yes, it would un-ethical and just another form of advertising. We do not have access to that info though.

I do wonder what kind of deal, if any, was worked out with the site.
 
Albovin - Why the hate? :)

10e's review went well above and beyond what any review of the V2400W out there has covered.

Not really quite sure what your issue is? Who in their right mind would simply buy a monitor with their own money (talking about normal consumers like you and I) to review for the rest of the population? I think what BenQ was trying to do was to, yes, get some publicity going for their new monitor but also give regular enthusiasts a chance to review this monitor for the rest of us. I'm sure BenQ knows the [H]'s reputation and I doubt they'd be stoopid enough to try and 'buy' positive reviews from members of this site.
 
Albovin, I do not fault you for asking such.

Here is the original thread:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1309896

My post is the first on page 2 "applying" to do the review.

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, if we keep the V2400W, we pay the sum listed in this thread. I am keeping my V2400W which means I pay
2) If I did not choose to keep it, I would be returning it to BenQ

I did do this review on my own time. I do have a day job :) I can provide details of where I work and what I do there. You are more than welcome to PM me ;)

My review was based on my own selfish needs as well as what I have learned on this forum over the past 20 months concerning monitors. I wanted to ensure I provided both subjective and measured information to the wide gamut of users that visit the forums here.

I can say that I have learned much from www.prad.de, www.behardware.com, www.tftcentral.co.uk as well as a number of users here including Snowdog, Tamblin_WSGF, ToastyX, SyCraft, Deusfaux, Jim Robbins, GTG465X, GTOViper, XTKnight from Anandtech, as well as you, Albovin.. The list is too long to mention.

This was my chance to give back so I took it.

So I hope that clears things up as much as possible.

Regards,

10e
 
10e said:
Albovin, I do not fault you for asking such.

Here is the original thread:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1309896

My post is the first on page 2 "applying" to do the review.

To answer your questions:

1) Yes, if we keep the V2400W, we pay the sum listed in this thread. I am keeping my V2400W which means I pay
2) If I did not choose to keep it, I would be returning it to BenQ

I did do this review on my own time. I do have a day job :) I can provide details of where I work and what I do there. You are more than welcome to PM me ;)

My review was based on my own selfish needs as well as what I have learned on this forum over the past 20 months concerning monitors. I wanted to ensure I provided both subjective and measured information to the wide gamut of users that visit the forums here.

I can say that I have learned much from www.prad.de, www.behardware.com, www.tftcentral.co.uk as well as a number of users here including Snowdog, Tamblin_WSGF, ToastyX, SyCraft, Deusfaux, Jim Robbins, GTG465X, GTOViper, XTKnight from Anandtech, as well as you, Albovin.. The list is too long to mention.

This was my chance to give back so I took it.

So I hope that clears things up as much as possible.

Regards,

10e
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Albovin, I do not fault you for asking such.
Click to expand...
Thank you for understanding me right.

Now all facts are clear to me.

1. A manufacturer offered a $350 discount bonus to those willing to review a minitor as a part of promo action.
2. Some people accepted the offer.
3. Monitors come from the manufacturer directly.
4. You did honest, professional level review of what you received.

No problem - it's up to you.

To conclude I am adding a portion of my post in the other thread:

In this whole story three things upset me:
1. Regular retail items should be used for reviews, not those from a manufacturer.
2. Ethical issue of participating in manufacturers' campaigns.
3. In other forums, after starting a thread (review) of a product, you are not allowed to post in your own thread until somebody else posts. Therefore you are not allowed (to prevent promotion) to keep a particular product thread on top of the forum list by your own postings (you'll get points!) - it's entirely up to readers interest to keep it on top or not.

I'am not the boss here, it's not my business.
I just express my own (mistaking?) opinion as an ordinary forum member.
 
Comments are inline.

If I had a desire to obfuscate the truth, I would let this thread die off, but I meet all questions directly.

I have been an avid reader of [H]ardOCP almost since the inception and have always loved their hard core style of distinguishing good products from bad regardless of advertising money influences. If you notice, it's pretty obvious Kyle doesn't give a crap if advertisers get mad and leave as long as his integrity is not compromised.

This was another reason for getting involved. I value people with integrity and an obligation to the truth as much as possible.

albovin said:
Thank you for understanding me right.

Now all facts are clear to me.

1. A manufacturer offered a $350 discount bonus to those willing to review a minitor as a part of promo action. For me the discount is closer to $200.00+ tax because of my distribution contacts and Canadian to U.S. exchange rates. My only real benefit is that I can give my G2400W away to a family member.
2. Some people accepted the offer. Absolutely. My interest in the monitor was multifaceted. I wished to see if it compared to its big brother (G2400W) and if it offered any improvements outside of aesthetics. It did and it didn't and the review reflects this.
3. Monitors come from the manufacturer directly. As they would if purchased from BenQ's store, as Nearsite and other users have purchased directly. No different than Dell. There is incentive in this in that BenQ's online store seems to have better satisfaction guarantees than many online retailers.
4. You did honest, professional level review of what you received. To the best of my abilities, based on things I believed were important to me and users of this forum. Like I said, I'm just the secretary.

No problem - it's up to you.

To conclude I am adding a portion of my post in the other thread:

In this whole story three things upset me:
1. Regular retail items should be used for reviews, not those from a manufacturer.
All review sites use pre-selected items, but in this case we received the items as sold. Ever try and review a D.O.A item? Me neither.It can be tough.

2. Ethical issue of participating in manufacturers' campaigns.

I will partially give you this one, and that is why I spent 20+ hours reviewing and making sure all my concerns and dislikes were expressed. I am no manufacturer fanboy whether Samsung, Dell, NEC, BenQ, LG, etc...

3. In other forums, after starting a thread (review) of a product, you are not allowed to post in your own thread until somebody else posts. Therefore you are not allowed (to prevent promotion) to keep a particular product thread on top of the forum list by your own postings (you'll get points!) - it's entirely up to readers interest to keep it on top or not.

Point 3 is moot. I posted three parts and came back a few hours later to respond in an informative fashion. My desire is to educate as much as possible. I would be most unhappy if someone bought the monitor and told me it was garbage because I didn't do my job. In fact I recently responded to a PM and did not recommend this monitor based on the user's requirements.

I'am not the boss here, it's not my business.
I just express my own (mistaking?) opinion as an ordinary forum member.
Click to expand...

You are always welcome to do so, and that's why this forum is one of the best.

Regards,

10e
 
albovin said:
1. Regular retail items should be used for reviews, not those from a manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Agreed - otherwise it's a potentially biased review (even if the manufacturer pulls an item from manufacturing at random, the perception is still there).

2. Ethical issue of participating in manufacturers' campaigns.
Click to expand...

Not an issue if it's stated publicly. Secretly supporting a product is unethical. Fanbois exist everywhere and are not necessarily unethical even if they are fanatically biased. However, personal interests (free or discounted products) changes the situation.

3. In other forums, after starting a thread (review) of a product, you are not allowed to post in your own thread until somebody else posts....
Click to expand...

Valid point - no self-driven promotion.

Overall, you make perfectly valid points and are correct in raising possible issues with this sort of product review. A policy of openness should be standard on these forums.
 
Is it just me.. or does someone just have their panties in a bunch because they didnt get a monitor for review?

C'mon.. This entire site is about making money through advertising and promotion. Newegg threads are stickied in the Hot Deals Section? is that Un-ethical?

If Benq pays for the promotion, which they have, the site has every right to promote it every way possible. Benq went WAY out on a limb with this one, as the people selected could have left Negative review.. it could have backfired.
 
albovin said:
In this whole story three things upset me:
1. Regular retail items should be used for reviews, not those from a manufacturer.
2. Ethical issue of participating in manufacturers' campaigns.
3. In other forums, after starting a thread (review) of a product, you are not allowed to post in your own thread until somebody else posts. Therefore you are not allowed (to prevent promotion) to keep a particular product thread on top of the forum list by your own postings (you'll get points!) - it's entirely up to readers interest to keep it on top or not.
Click to expand...

1: Almost all review sites (Consumer reports is the exception, not the rule) use manufacturer supplied items because they are often doing reviews before wide availability. This is the norm. You almost never get a case of them supplying special review gear. If they did, they would damage their reputation.

The conditions were known to everyone if they cared to read the initial postings.

2: I am 100% for manufacturers letting real competent users review products like this. I trust 10e's review more than most of the lame "professional" review sites who don't seem to have much clue about monitors at all.

3: No big deal either way, but I would sticky one dead post (no followups) with a link to all the reviews to make it easier to find them when done.

I say Bravo to [H] and Benq for doing this. We are getting excellent quality reviews (so far) with new points of view.

This is better than the status quo, not worse. No doubt by the time all the reviews are in, you will find several negatives from different people. I see no sign that reviews are being vetted or controlled.

As far as saving $250 off a monitor. I doubt many peoples integrity is for sale that cheap. 20 hours for the review means the savings are around $12.50/hour. I wouldn't work that cheap, I am sure 10e wouldn't either. Clearly he is doing this for the benefit of the community
 
Let's not forget, just becuase there are no negative opinions on a particular product, it doesn't mean the reviewers are 'biased', and I hope the reviewers don't include negatives for the sake of appearing non bias. Just know that I put my trust here and whatever your reviews come out with, whether they be positive, negative or a combination of the two, I'm going to trust that you gave your best objective opinion of that product.
 
Snowdog said:
You almost never get a case of them supplying special review gear. If they did, they would damage their reputation.
Click to expand...

it happens disturbingly often with overclocking oriented gear like memory and video cards :(
 
Snowdog said:
1: Almost all review sites (Consumer reports is the exception, not the rule) use manufacturer supplied items because they are often doing reviews before wide availability. This is the norm.

Prad.de about Eizo SX3031W test (actually this super-overpriced monitor failed):
"For a short time, a second model of the SX3031W was available to us for testing. As well as an operating noise which overlay the noise of the fan and changed to an unpleasant, light whistle when the monitor switched off, the homogeneity was considerably poorer than on our test model. Both models came from the free market."

I trust 10e's review more than most of the lame "professional" review sites who don't seem to have much clue about monitors at all.
So do I.

20 hours for the review means the savings are around $12.50/hour. I wouldn't work that cheap, I am sure 10e wouldn't either. Clearly he is doing this for the benefit of the community
:eek: It takes me 1 week for a short one, 2 weeks for a longer one and 3 weeks for 2 language reviews.
Click to expand...
...
 
This site seems to have very little if any payola corruption in comparison to www.avsforum.com which is a much bigger site in terms of display technology reviews. You can't even mention a downside to a monitor without 8 samsung/sharp/other employees attacking you.
 
albovin said:
Is it ethical to use a public forum for monitor promotion?
Click to expand...

The way it was done here was actually very ethical. Promotion of products are everywhere. From sneaky employees of different companies posting as regular users, to open banners and ads seen also here at [H]. There is nothing wrong with promotion of a product, but there can be ethical issues sometimes in ways the products are promoted. The question is valid enough, but I feel that [H] has made it pretty clear to all users that this IS a promotion.

10e made an excelent review which is better then most professional reviews I've read about screens. There is no indication that I've found which shows that this review was purchased in any way. 10e made a balanced and objective review with his own subjective views and didn't hide the faults he found either.

Wasn't it nice that [H] and Benq engaged users instead to make the review? Good for the spirit of a forum that users can take an active part giving back to a forum like 10e did in my opinion. :)
 
Just make sure all conflicts of interest are disclosed and it's ethical IMO. I don't see why any reviewer would have a problem disclosing that a company gave the a product.
 
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