I think I want to take the dive into water cooling

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FinalAura

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
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I feel its time to step it up from using my TRUE 120 and try a water cooling setup. I've always loved how water setups looked, but was always too scared and too expensive for me to try.

Well a few years have now passed, and I think i'll go for it.

I want to make this as easy as possible for me, and moderately priced, so I was thinking of getting a kit. I was looking up these XSPC Raystorm kits, and they fit around my budget of $300. Are those kits any good? http://www.svc.com/water-cooling-kit.html
I was looking at the installation guides for the kits, and they don't look too difficult. But is there an even better bang for buck kit out there? I was looking at the sticky posts of this forum, but it seems a little outdated. Or would it be better to purcahse separate parts?

I just want to cool my cpu (most likely will get an ivy 3570k in the future). So i'm guessing a 2 fan radiator would suffice? Or would it be better to get the 3 fan rad in the event that I would want to add gpu cooling.

Sorry for all the noob questions. I just want to get the expert opinions of [H] and get this doe right the first time.

Thanks
 
if have have to get a kit, the xspc ones are probably the best (the swiftech ones close behind).

you could probably do a custom build for around the same price or even cheaper.
did a quick cart @ jabtech...
capturepbf.png


that's without fans & fittings tho. if you wanna keep it cheap, go with barbs (specifically 1/2ID ones). note some of the bits in list might already include barbs so you might only need a couple. you could also save some money on the radiator by getting a 240 instead of the 360. check your case first, might have issues fitting it. can always mount the rad externally on a 120mm fan mount with a swiftech 'radbox'. the 360 rad is a bit overkill for just a CPU but it does allow some expansion (gpu) later on. also having a large rad means you can use quieter/slower rpm fans.

i chose jabtech as they're one of the cheapest online sites around plus you can use the 'facebook' coupon to knock the price down a bit.

anyway that was 5 mins work to put together and the selection makes a very solid WC loop. the block & pump is arguably the best on the market for the cost.
 
FinalAura said:
I feel its time to step it up from using my TRUE 120 and try a water cooling setup. I've always loved how water setups looked, but was always too scared and too expensive for me to try.

Well a few years have now passed, and I think i'll go for it.

I want to make this as easy as possible for me, and moderately priced, so I was thinking of getting a kit. I was looking up these XSPC Raystorm kits, and they fit around my budget of $300. Are those kits any good? http://www.svc.com/water-cooling-kit.html
I was looking at the installation guides for the kits, and they don't look too difficult. But is there an even better bang for buck kit out there? I was looking at the sticky posts of this forum, but it seems a little outdated. Or would it be better to purcahse separate parts?

I just want to cool my cpu (most likely will get an ivy 3570k in the future). So i'm guessing a 2 fan radiator would suffice? Or would it be better to get the 3 fan rad in the event that I would want to add gpu cooling.

Sorry for all the noob questions. I just want to get the expert opinions of [H] and get this doe right the first time.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Order more tubing than you expect, order 2-4 more fittings that you anticipate a need for and if your able to, mock run the tubing in your system prior to ordering so you know how many 45/90 degree fittings you may need. Just a few things I had wished i'd done before I ordered my stuff...I spent a lot in right the fuck now shipping, lol.

Stay away from Ice Dragon coolant and EK Nickel plated blocks. Also, you can get distilled water from your local Kmart/Walmart for dirt cheap....don't waste money on having it shipped...just be sure to grab some killcoils when you order the parts.

Don't worry though, as long as your not completely careless, installing WC setups is pretty easy. Mount the parts, unplug the power from everything except the water pump, and short pins 3-4 (or the Green line to any black line) of the 24-pin power connector to turn the PSU on. This will allow you to leak test without having a leak cause potential damage to your hardware.

Oh ya, something I never read about but also found to be a duh moment after I realized what was going on is that when the pump kicks in, it actually causes the water to "compress" due to water pressure so your gonna see water levels drop a bit. Just keep a fill line open when you turn it on so you can properly bleed and fill the system, some pumps are not meant to be run dry.
 
I second what Grunt is saying here. Literally make a list of all your items, and check it at least a few times to assure you've got everything you need on your first set of orders. As for the xspc kits, they're pretty good value, but I'd get one of the newer versions that has the all delrin res instead of the ones made from clear acrylic.

Like this: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/xsrad5exwaki1.html

I even went so far as to take pics of my case with hardware in it, and drew all over it with several different tube routing and component placements before I ordered last time. Then I came up with needing 1 90 rotary, 1 45, and a couple barbs to replace some plastic ones. I still ran into some 3D issues, where my pics didn't take into account the height of my ram, but if you can get 90% there, you can usually improvise the last 10% without too much work.
 
Thank you guys for the insight on my endeavor. I'm still in the planning stages, trying to make sure I know where i'm going to place everything and find out what parts exactly I do need.

Glad to know that the XSPC kits are good. I want to get one of those even though they might cost a bit more, but I think I may go the custom route. Only because I don't want to use the stock fans.... I'd like some quieter fans.

@aphasia
Your build looks solid to me, while saving me a few $. Is there a big difference between the swifttech reservoir and the XSPC one that comes in the kit? I kinda want the one in the kit because of aesthetics and the fact that it fits in the drivebays, so I can see it. IF the swifttech is more beneficial to have though, I may go with that one. Also, do you have any recommendations for barbs, specifically any links I can reference? I just don't want to choose the wrong one

@USMCGrunt
I will get extra tubing/fittings for sure. Better to be to have extra than to not have enough! Thanks for letting me know about the distilled water. Will hit up my local mart for some of that stuff on the cheap, rather than getting it shipped. I also read about the water levels dropping a bit when I initially start the pump. Will keep that in mind to properly bleed and fill the system when the time comes.

@Imitation
Definitely am going to make a list of what I need. The case I want to place the water cooling on has not arrived yet (lian li v1000z) but I will definitely make an efffort to make some quick diagrams and take some snapshots of where each component should go. The case isn't that roomy, so I'm thinking of mounting the radiator on top of the case.

Another Question for you guys... I was watching a review on the XSPC Kit, and they were saying that if I'm solely going to use it for cooling my CPU, then the kit is overkill. As did aphasia. As of right now, I don't plan to do any gpu cooling. I have a non-ref gtx670 and they don't widely make waterblocks for it', and I don't plan to upgrade my GPU for a good while. Would it be wiser to just get a 240mm rad? I just don't want to lose too much performance that way.

Also, I can't seem to find the difference between the EX360 Raystorm kit, and the RX360 kit. Do you guys happen to know?

Thanks guys. I appreciate it
 
do eet! You could build a bong cooler for $170..Raystorm block..Danner Mag5...48-qt cooler..8' of sewer pipe..and a $2 shower head :D
 
Thing is, a 360 radiator isn't that much more than a 240 radiator, and affords you the extra cooling should you need it. However, if you get a 240 radiator, and then later on decide you need more, then you would have to buy a 360 radiator.

The difference between the two kits is in the radiator used. The RX radiator is thicker, but has a lower FPI, which makes it work well with low speed fans. The EX radiator is thinner, but has a higher FPI, which makes it a better performer with medium to high speed fans.

The XSPC reservoir may be a bit more difficult to bleed, due to it being mounted in the bay and the pump being mounted directly to it. The swiftech reservoir allows the pump and reservoir to be mounted separately. The swiftech reservoir also has multiple ports for multiple loops, not relevant for your scenario though.

Barbs are barbs, there really is no tangible difference between them besides the aesthetics. You just need to make sure the specs are correct: G 1/4 threading (most components use G 1/4 threads) with the proper ID (inner diameter) for the tubing size you choose.
 
Thanks for the clarifcation on the two different models. I'd prefer low noise, so it seems that the RX would be better for me? Thanks for clearing up the reservoir as well. Now I have to decide which I'd rather have... hmmm

Also, from aphasia's build above, I noticed hes using a swiftech pump and radiator. Are those just as good as the ones in the XSPC kit? I don't expect them to be, since they are cheaper, but are they just good for overclocking the CPU? The one thing I liked about the XSPC pump was that it had a variable cooling function to choose the noise level. But if the swiftech isn't too loud, then that should suffice.

Furthermore i was wondering if i'd be losing a lot of performance by going with a 120 rad. I'm just thinking of the space I have to work with and one would be a good fit. Looking at the prices though, they cost almost as much as a 240.. but I'm just wondering if a 120 will hinder me by a good chunk.

And yes.. another question, sorry guys.
I was looking at this kit and its $100+ cheaper than the xspc d5 variant.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/1...oling_Kit_w_Free_Kill_Coil.html?tl=g30c83s137.
Would that be significantly worse as well?
 
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The pump in the XSPC kit is the same as the Swiftech pump. The Swiftech pump is Swiftech's rebrand of the Laing D5. Basically, the Swiftech MCP655 and Koolance PMP-450 are just rebrands of the Laing D5, so they're the exact same pump.

NO, DO NOT GET THAT KIT. That 750 kit has a pump that is notorious for premature pump failure and excessive noise.

For your case, the difference between the RX and EX radiators would be small, but yes, I would suggest going with the RX radiator. However, the RX radiators are generally more expensive than the EX radiators. The Swiftech QP radiator is similar to the EX radiator.

Yes, a single 120 radiator would be sufficient for overclocking the CPU, but at that point I would seriously just stick with your TRUE 120. The price/performance you get with a single 120 is absolutely abysmal, since the costs of the blocks, pumps, etc remain the same. If you do watercooling, do it right the first time or you'll most likely regret doing it.
 
So i've made 3 carts on 3 different sites and they all round up to almost as much as I'd pay for a xspc kit.

01 - jabtech
http://i.imgur.com/z7svJ.jpg

02 - sidewinder
http://i.imgur.com/wmjck.jpg

03 - petra
http://i.imgur.com/XS7Ld.jpg

If i were to get the raystorm kit, http://www.jab-tech.com/XSPC-RayStorm-D5-RX360-WaterCooling-Kit-pr-5002.html, I'd have a better radiator and IMO, a more aesthetically pleasing reservoir.

Am I doing something wrong in my builds? I was under the impression that I would save a good amount of money, but probably not so much. Which setup would be more ideal in your opinion?

Thanks again guys
 
You do not need PT Nuke if you're using silver killcoils, although it couldn't really hurt to use both together.

If you used the exact same parts as in the Raystorm kit, then you would save a fair chunk of money. The bay reservoir is about $40 more expensive than the Swiftech Micro-res V2, and the compression fittings are about $20-30 more than barb fittings for 6. There's also several nifty tools and other things that add ~$20 to the cost, so it really is a good value. However, if you want your own set of parts, then a custom loop is the way to go.

Jab-tech has a coupon 'facebook' that would save you 5%.
 
FinalAura said:
So i've made 3 carts on 3 different sites and they all round up to almost as much as I'd pay for a xspc kit.

01 - jabtech
http://i.imgur.com/z7svJ.jpg

02 - sidewinder
http://i.imgur.com/wmjck.jpg

03 - petra
http://i.imgur.com/XS7Ld.jpg

If i were to get the raystorm kit, http://www.jab-tech.com/XSPC-RayStorm-D5-RX360-WaterCooling-Kit-pr-5002.html, I'd have a better radiator and IMO, a more aesthetically pleasing reservoir.

Am I doing something wrong in my builds? I was under the impression that I would save a good amount of money, but probably not so much. Which setup would be more ideal in your opinion?

Thanks again guys
Click to expand...

OP, I think there are plenty of sound recommendations here, so I won't bother echoing them, but I did want to tell you that Sidewinder and Petra's Tech Shop are now the exact same place..

The owner of Petra's was having some issues, so the owners of Sidewinder closed their shop in CA and owned to Indiana (IIRC) where Petra's was located..They are excellent on customer service, so while Jabbatech might be a bit cheaper, that is something to consider..I have never purchased from Jabba but a lot of people seem to like them...

Goodluck with your build, and as others have said, plan plan plan, then execute :D
 
Thanks for the head up on petras! I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the info Tsumi. Much appreciated. Knocks one thing off my list.

I started making a quick mock. Would this setup be okay, or would it just be better to mount the radiator externally? (probably on top or rear)
07RAK.jpg


Also I think I might want to add a blue dye to the liquid... Any suggestions?

Thanks again
 
FinalAura said:
Thanks for the head up on petras! I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the info Tsumi. Much appreciated. Knocks one thing off my list.

I started making a quick mock. Would this setup be okay, or would it just be better to mount the radiator externally? (probably on top or rear)
07RAK.jpg


Also I think I might want to add a blue dye to the liquid... Any suggestions?

Thanks again
Click to expand...

That setup appears to be fine, the only concern I would have is the airflow across the radiator being restricted by the inability of air to flow OUT of the case. Assuming you installed four same type fans (3 front 1 back) your gonna have about a 3:1 ratio of air intake vs. exhaust. The benefit to this is that your going to have a positive flow case, keeping dust from being able to get in from between cracks in the panels keeping your parts nice and dust free (assuming you have dust filters on the intake fans. Downside though is that, like I said, reduced flow across the radiator and the potential for additional fan noise. It's probably minimal effects though depending on the fans your getting as the effect is going to be more pronounced with high speed, high CFM fans.

In terms of the actual loop and flow characteristics though you should be perfectly fine. If in the future you decide to do the GPU, you may want to look at reversing the flow of the fans so the front is exhaust, just so your not heatsoaking everything.

Also looks like your probably going to be using three 45 degree fittings (two on the cpu block and one from res to pump). If its something that interests you, you can get that same pump from FrozenCPU with the barbs bored out to G1/4 that would allow you to fit your choice of fittings onto it, gives a little more versatility in terms of tube size and possible placement of pump, gonna cost you an extra $20 or so plus the fittings you'd have to buy for those connections....just a suggestion.
 
Get blue tubing and blue LEDs for the reservoir if you want the coolant to appear colored, dyes are trouble and will inevitably clog your blocks.
 
Cool, thanks for letting me know about the dyes. Will probably just go with clear tubing. I don't like flashy LED's.

Thanks for the input USMCGrunt. Good to know that setup will work fine.

I think i'm almost done with the planning. Unless anyone has objections to the diagram i have in my previous post

Question, would you guys recommend that I get compression fittings for my tubing? Just wondering if they are worth the extra cost..

Thanks
 
FinalAura said:
Question, would you guys recommend that I get compression fittings for my tubing? Just wondering if they are worth the extra cost..
Click to expand...

Compression fittings are mostly just for flash. If you get barbs, its recommended that you also use hose clamps to secure the tube over the barbs and some people don't like the way that looks. Another popular method is to get tubing a size smaller then barb sizes and the added tension from the size mismatch holds the tubing on much better but that does make it more difficult to put the loop together/tear it down.

With compression fittings, you have to properly match the inner AND outer diameter of the hose with the fittings you buy. I would also recommend getting rotary angle connectors as well if you do it. Rotary connections allow you to "aim" the connector in the direction you want it to face once its screwed in.

Compression fittings at work...Bitspower brand on the radiator and top fill ports and then Koolance brand coming out the back of the pump/res combo.
pumpshot.jpg
 
USMCGrunt;1039119602 With compression fittings said:
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/8731/pumpshot.jpg[/img]
Click to expand...

Thanks. This is very helpful. One thing, though. Do you always use "straight" fittings on the CPU block?
 
Nope, doesn't matter whether you need to use straight or angle fittings on the CPU block. The CPU block has its own internal nozzles/etc.

And yeah, compression fittings are really if you want to spend extra on the aesthetics. Otherwise, barbs with worm gear clamps work fine.
 
Ended up purchasing with the rx240 kit after so nights of thinking this through. I don't have much room in my case to work with, so I went with the 2x120 rad and everything just cost less going with the kit. Not to mention I get the better RX radiator. I bought some Scythe Gentle Typhoons along to go with it. Will update you guys when I get my stuff. Thanks for all the help once again.

Btw, is there anything/procedures I should do first with the kit before installing it? (ie cleaning certain parts, etc)
 
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Hey guys

Got my loop all setup and have been leak testing for 24 hours but there are a bunch of little bubbles that wont go away and the water/pump is super loud... Its like the water is splashing against the reservoir. The reservoir is pretty much topped off with a full amount of distilled water.

Is there anything im doing wrong? I was doing some research and some people stated that I have to let the air out? I can open the top entry to my reservoir/pump combo but water will continue to splash at me if I leave it open, in which I would need to top off again to keep the reservoir full of water.

Any ideas? The thing is pretty loud.
 
The kit comes with the D5 Vario pump, so you can adjust the speed to keep the water from splashing. To bleed the loop, you need to move and tilt the case while only the pump is running. Basically, you want to force air into the reservoir, where you can let it out and replace it with more water. Changing the speed of the pump might help dislodge air pockets too.
 
Shut the system off and tilt your case around to try and get that air into your resevoir and then top your resevoir off, repeat until you get them all out. Distilled water can also cause microbubbles to form on the face of your resevoir but those are harmless, theyll discipate after a few days but you don't want air circulating through the system....air pockets create heat buildup and most water pumps can become damaged if they are run dry.....not sure if air bubbles can damage a pump but I dont have the cash to try it out either.
 
thanks guys. Shaking the case seemed to help a bit. It barely made any more air come up, but I topped it off again and the noise went down considerably.

Is it normal to hear the water entering the reservoir? Its a consistent little splash but much quieter from before. I'm just wondering if this is normal or if I'd have to do more bleeding. It also, for the lack of a better term, makes a "choking" sound from time to time
 
Usually, the splashing sound means that there is still air inside the pump's impeller. Water hitting against the reservoir wall will not make any noise unless there is air inside that stream, but tiny air bubbles inside the impeller will be noisy.
 
Yeah I thought the splashy noise would go away by now but it's still there. The pump is relatively quiet at a speed of 3. I shaked my case Plenty of times to try and get air out but the reservoir is still full of water. I'd say this is louder than regular air cooling, which is not what I wanted...

the sound is for sure the water splashing in.the reservoir. Not vibrations from the pump

should I end up draining and refilling again? Not sure what to do..

thanks for the help guys
 
I have found that sometimes the best solution is just to let the system work all of the air bubbles out and keep the system topped off. When I drain and refill my loop, I get the same loud noises for a while. In my case, it sounds like the pumps is bringing in some amount of air. After letting it run for awhile it seems to work itself out. I have also noticed where turning the pump on for 30 seconds, off for 30 seconds and tilting the case around loosens up those bubbles. I usually will go through this cycle several times to get the air out.
 
I didn't say pump vibrations. I said air bubbles trapped inside the pump impeller, and those take time to work themselves out. Turn it up to 5 and see what happens, the increased force might be what is necessary to push it out.
 
If you're using this reservoir little air bubbles will go from the res. inlet right into the impeller and make a loud splashing noise. It's not the best design in the world, and I was having similar issues with my build. You can take a small piece of tubing, cut it in half, and use it redirect the flow until the air bubbles work themselves out. Try not to completely block water flow! Once most of the bubbles are gone, you can get rid of the tubing and the rest of the tiny bubbles should work themselves out.
 
Tsumi said:
I didn't say pump vibrations. I said air bubbles trapped inside the pump impeller, and those take time to work themselves out. Turn it up to 5 and see what happens, the increased force might be what is necessary to push it out.
Click to expand...

I just stated that it wasn't pump vibrations so that no would suggest that its pump noise against the case that's causing the noise. Wasn't targeting you individually.

I see what you're saying about the pump impeller. I've tried all the speeds for long periods of time and and no difference. The water still makes splash noises and sometimes makes some "choking/gurgling noises, which I assume is air, even though the reservoir has been filled and topped off numerous times..

Ozy,
I'm actually using this reservoir: http://www.xs-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/d5b5.jpg. It is not enclosed in a clear plexi glass. Not sure if those 2 models are different, however. Sorry to be a noob, but I'm not sure what you mean about that half piece of tubing. Is there a picture I can reference?

I'm not sure what else to do besides just leaving it on..

Thanks again guys
 
My setup did that as well, best thing I did was rotate my case so that the Res was facing up and then I'd let the air bubbles work up and out with the loop running, then shut the system down and tilt the case from side to side slowly to get air bubbles that might be stuck in the rad to work themselves into the tubing and then the Res.
 
FinalAura said:
I just stated that it wasn't pump vibrations so that no would suggest that its pump noise against the case that's causing the noise. Wasn't targeting you individually.

I see what you're saying about the pump impeller. I've tried all the speeds for long periods of time and and no difference. The water still makes splash noises and sometimes makes some "choking/gurgling noises, which I assume is air, even though the reservoir has been filled and topped off numerous times..

Ozy,
I'm actually using this reservoir: http://www.xs-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/d5b5.jpg. It is not enclosed in a clear plexi glass. Not sure if those 2 models are different, however. Sorry to be a noob, but I'm not sure what you mean about that half piece of tubing. Is there a picture I can reference?

I'm not sure what else to do besides just leaving it on..

Thanks again guys
Click to expand...

If the noise varies, it's almost definitely air in the pump impeller. The best thing you can do is let that work its way out over time, but if there's air elsewhere in the loop, it'll get sucked into the impeller and the noise will start again. You can either be patient or let it work itself out (it will eventually), or turn it on and off repeatedly, hoping that it would get out.
 
USMCGrunt said:
My setup did that as well, best thing I did was rotate my case so that the Res was facing up and then I'd let the air bubbles work up and out with the loop running, then shut the system down and tilt the case from side to side slowly to get air bubbles that might be stuck in the rad to work themselves into the tubing and then the Res.
Click to expand...

I tried doing this with my case (everythig is mounted already) but at a 45 degree angle (reservoir bay facing up 45 degrees). The splashing pretty much stopped and the water in the reservoir went down VERY slightly. I topped the reservoir again (jeez its freakin hard to top off such a little amount) and put my case back in normal position and the splashing came back. Put the case in the 45 degree orientation again and the noise goes away.

This is getting pretty annoying. I feel like its the radiator but I dont know how to fix this problem... I've repeated the above process several times, and its really hard to top off the reservoir since more water just comes out and I end up having pretty much what I had begun with.

Tsumi, you're saying that if I just leave it be, it will eventually find its sweet spot and quiet down? Is that like 2 weeks time or more or something?

Please bare with my frustration. I'm trying to be patient, but this is getting annoying and I can't use my computer..
 
Is your level still at 3? If so, turn it all the way up. It'll help force the air out faster, especially if its stuck in the radiator. The pump is still pretty quiet at max, so it might not hurt just to leave it there all the time.

With my pump set at max, sitting in the middle of my case with the side panels on, I cannot hear it at all. When I first initially filled my loop, it took it ~2-3 days for most of the air noises to go away. And then, once every week or 2 weeks, an air bubble would dislodge itself and make some noise, but that's a brief ~30 seconds worth of noise, and that's it.
 
I've been alternating the speed but i'll set it at 5 for the time being. The pump isn't loud at all, but the amount of splash noise the water is producing is super loud. Should I just leave it be at this setting and deal with the loud noise? It sounds like a carwash
 
FinalAura said:
I've been alternating the speed but i'll set it at 5 for the time being. The pump isn't loud at all, but the amount of splash noise the water is producing is super loud. Should I just leave it be at this setting and deal with the loud noise? It sounds like a carwash
Click to expand...

Well, that definitely sounds like air bubbles in the impeller to me. I was just working on my loop a bit, and yes, it will do the exact same thing. At lower speeds, it sounds like splashing noises, while at higher speeds it sounds like, as you said, a car wash.

For me though, since I use this reservoir, the air bubbles work their way out rather quick. It took me ~6 hours of running the pump at 5 for most of the air bubbles to get out. Then again, I didn't completely drain the loop either, the radiators were still mostly full of water.
 
Seems like I should have went with that res and got the pump separate. Oh well... THe kit just seemed very appealing since it came with everything and had good cost savings.

So If I leave the pump at 5 for another 24 hours, it should ultimately quiet the system down? I'm noticing right now that the water will be quiet for a few seconds, then will start the carwash song once again for a few minutes. Rinse and repeat. Is this a good sign?

Thanks once again for answering my questions and helping me out :)
 
Yes, that means that there are still air bubbles in the loop working its way out. Whenever you hear the carwash noise, that means some of the bubbles finally reached the reservoir, and due to the layout of the tubing inside the reservoir, some of it got shot into the pump. When the noise disappears, that means the bubbles finally found their way out of the pump and into the loop, where it'll travel around until it reaches the reservoir.

Because of this design, it makes bleeding a bit more difficult, but it also increases the flow rate and pressure the pump is capable of producing, since the water is shot directly into the pump instead of just dumping out into the reservoir.
 
THanks for that info. Good to know. I hope the bleed turns out successful because right now, the quiet/carwash pattern is happening at a pretty consistent rate... Hoping that the carwash will lessen soon over time..
 
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