I gotta applaud Apple...

[shurcooL]

They have some balls.

Consider this. Just a year ago, their arguably most promoted laptop series, the 13" MacBook Air (also 13" MBP), had a Core 2 Duo processor in them.

Let me put that in perspective for you. At the same time as the Core i3/5/7 CPUs were available, in fact, the second generation IIRC, Apple's top end portable (<15") laptops were sporting the old Core 2 Duos.

They did it because at the time, it offered the best (in Apple's opinion) experience for the end users, a Core 2 Duo (which is plenty powerful) + dedicated graphics (Nvidia 320M), rather than a faster CPU with near-zero graphics (Intel 4500 MHD or whatnot?).

Seriously, what other company out there can you think of that would be so bold as to be able to release their leading laptops using CPUs as outdated as Core 2 Duos? Apple did not bulge to the enormous pressure from the press, the public and did what they knew was best. Most other companies would've succumbed to that pressure and slapped the Core i5's in there despite that it'd lead to a worse overall product.

I just wanted to say that. Respect.

 

[MScrip]

Just a year ago, their arguably most promoted laptop series, the 13" MacBook Air (also 13" MBP), had a Core 2 Duo processor in them.

Let me put that in perspective for you. At the same time as the Core i3/5/7 CPUs were available, in fact, the second generation IIRC, Apple's top end portable (<15") laptops were sporting the old Core 2 Duos.

They did it because at the time, it offered the best (in Apple's opinion) experience for the end users, a Core 2 Duo (which is plenty powerful) + dedicated graphics (Nvidia 320M), rather than a faster CPU with near-zero graphics (Intel 4500 MHD or whatnot?).

Seriously, what other company out there can you think of that would be so bold as to be able to release their leading laptops using CPUs as outdated as Core 2 Duos? Apple did not bulge to the enormous pressure from the press, the public and did what they knew was best. Most other companies would've succumbed to that pressure and slapped the Core i5's in there despite that it'd lead to a worse overall product.

I just wanted to say that. Respect.

Apple has always promoted the user experience over raw hardware specs. This is nothing new.

Apple would argue that the speed of the processor does not make a great laptop.

Just a year ago the Macbook Air was a completely new breed of laptop. They were pretty bold in that respect.

No one else was making them that thin, light, etc. Even Intel's "Ultrabook" classification is relatively new.

But fast forward to today... even the base-model Macbook Air and MBP has a Core i5

Problem solved?

 

[n3zyd]

With apologies to apple fans
can it play Crysis

 

[shurcooL]

Apple has always promoted the user experience over raw hardware specs. This is nothing new.

I know it's nothing new. But a lot of people shit on them at the time, so I just wanted to praise Apple in retrospect.

 

[Grentz]

Yeah, thats great and all, but their Core 2 Duo crap was even in their desktops at that time. Made no friggin sense other than larger margins. There was no reason for their price points they couldn't do i series with dedicated graphics.

and Intel built in graphics are not that bad...especially for what most common Mac users do.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Apple has always promoted the user experience over raw hardware specs. This is nothing new.

Though, to be fair, in the smartphone/tablet market, they have been among the hardest SoC performance pushers

 

[Grentz]

Apple has always promoted the user experience over raw hardware specs. This is nothing new.

Apple would argue that the speed of the processor does not make a great laptop.

Just a year ago the Macbook Air was a completely new breed of laptop. They were pretty bold in that respect.

No one else was making them that thin, light, etc. Even Intel's "Ultrabook" classification is relatively new.

But fast forward to today... even the base-model Macbook Air and MBP has a Core i5

Problem solved?

That second statement is funny, especially with you bringing up the Air. Ever use the first gen with the ULV processors? Those things were ridiculously slow for anything more than simple web browsing and word processing. Try and do any sort of simple graphics work, or other things that Apple loves to push so much and they were crushed.

 

[jeremyshaw]

That second statement is funny, especially with you bringing up the Air. Ever use the first gen with the ULV processors? Those things were ridiculously slow for anything more than simple web browsing and word processing. Try and do any sort of simple graphics work, or other things that Apple loves to push so much and they were crushed.

somehow, those were still better than the cripled Atom most netbooks used Which isn't saying much

 

[MScrip]

That second statement is funny, especially with you bringing up the Air. Ever use the first gen with the ULV processors? Those things were ridiculously slow for anything more than simple web browsing and word processing. Try and do any sort of simple graphics work, or other things that Apple loves to push so much and they were crushed.

True... the first gen Airs were a slow laptop in a thin case. Still pretty groundbreaking for almost 4 years ago. Did they promote the original Air as a speed demon?

Good thing they've shaped up quite a bit since then!

 

[Terpfen]

Why are the specs of a year-old hardware revision relevant now heading into 2012? Honestly, what&#8217;s the point of this?

 

[shurcooL]

Hardware specs and performance _is_ important, Apple isn't downplaying it. But it's a single component out of many that come together to make the end result user experience.

Things have to be balanced. Just as an example, it's better to have a pretty fast CPU and great battery life and little heat/noise, rather than slightly faster CPU with appalling battery life and hair dryer-like outputs.

 

[Grentz]

somehow, those were still better than the cripled Atom most netbooks used Which isn't saying much

Issue being that the air was WAYYYYY more expensive than any netbook.

True... the first gen Airs were a slow laptop in a thin case. Still pretty groundbreaking for almost 4 years ago. Did they promote the original Air as a speed demon?

Good thing they've shaped up quite a bit since then!

http://www.techpinas.com/2009/02/trivia-thinnest-laptop-ever.html

I get where you can comprise on specs a bit to get form factor, speed, battery life, etc. But I think Apple often times does it for more under cover reasons than its marketing department will have you believe.

 

[shansoft]

Issue being that the air was WAYYYYY more expensive than any netbook.



http://www.techpinas.com/2009/02/trivia-thinnest-laptop-ever.html

I get where you can comprise on specs a bit to get form factor, speed, battery life, etc. But I think Apple often times does it for more under cover reasons than its marketing department will have you believe.

I still remember the Lion's trailer about the touchpad gesture, which Apple claim it to be the first revolutionary and innovation design.

Not trying to bash apple here, but their marketing department is targeting those who have absolutely no clue about computer and those who see Apple like second coming of jesus.

 

[Terpfen]

I still remember the Lion's trailer about the touchpad gesture, which Apple claim it to be the first revolutionary and innovation design.

Not trying to bash apple here, but their marketing department is targeting those who have absolutely no clue about computer and those who see Apple like second coming of jesus.

Not only have you misinterpreted the gesture videos, but you've misunderstood who they were aimed at.

The point of the gesture videos was to contrast how Lion handled trackpad input with the way Snow Leopard handled trackpad input. Lion responds to trackpad input in a way that Snow Leopard doesn't, but in a way that might remind some of iOS. Given the way people instinctively take to iOS, that's a good thing.

As for Apple's marketing department, they were solely concerned with marketing iOS and iOS devices since before Lion's release, so I'm not sure why you're going into the "it's all a Jedi mind trick!" zone. No, it's not a trick, and no, they're not preying on ignorance; but even if they were targeting the technologically illiterate, they certainly have a better product line with which to introduce said audience to computing than anyone else. Sticking with just the trackpad gesture topic, who has a better trackpad, more intuitive gestures, or better systemwide integration? (That's a rhetorical question, by the way. No such purportedly superior implementation exists.)

 

[ryken]

Why are the specs of a year-old hardware revision relevant now heading into 2012? Honestly, what&#8217;s the point of this?

I'm glad I'm not the only one that is totally confused at to the relevance of this thread.

 

[MScrip]

http://www.techpinas.com/2009/02/trivia-thinnest-laptop-ever.html

I get where you can comprise on specs a bit to get form factor, speed, battery life, etc. But I think Apple often times does it for more under cover reasons than its marketing department will have you believe.

I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.

Are we discussing thickness now?

I kinda wish I had never replied to the OP... who was saying something about processors from a year ago

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with shurcooL... Apple has balls!

/end thread?

 

[xacid]

This is my thinking on it. Apple has closer ties to its hardware than Microsoft so they can more so optimize the software to take advantage of the hardware more so than Microsoft can with Windows. Windows is a bloated OS that needs to be trimmed of fat where OS X is very optimized and runs very well on the hardware Apple sells or they wouldn't offer that hardware at all. Yeah they made a mistake with the early 2011 MBP updates but they did fix it in October and hopefully we will see a redesign in 2012.

Honestly my 13 inch MBP 2010 (Core 2 Duo) runs smoother than my i7 860 quad core desktop. No I can't play Crysis but as mentioned previously my user experience is more pleasing on my MBP than my desktop so I end up using it more.

This is my same opinion on iPhone vs Android. Apple controls both hardware and software therefore the platform runs better.

<Typed this on my Hackintosh cause I'm sick of Windows>

 

[ryken]

This is my thinking on it. Apple has closer ties to its hardware than Microsoft so they can more so optimize the software to take advantage of the hardware more so than Microsoft can with Windows. Windows is a bloated OS that needs to be trimmed of fat where OS X is very optimized and runs very well on the hardware Apple sells or they wouldn't offer that hardware at all. Yeah they made a mistake with the early 2011 MBP updates but they did fix it in October and hopefully we will see a redesign in 2012.

Honestly my 13 inch MBP 2010 (Core 2 Duo) runs smoother than my i7 860 quad core desktop. No I can't play Crysis but as mentioned previously my user experience is more pleasing on my MBP than my desktop so I end up using it more.

This is my same opinion on iPhone vs Android. Apple controls both hardware and software therefore the platform runs better.

<Typed this on my Hackintosh cause I'm sick of Windows>

1. windows is not bloated
2. of course the user experience is better on your MBP, you put a SSD in it, but not in your i7 rig
3. yes, limiting hardware results in tighter integration with software, but it also means limited hardware

be objective in your analysis. your overstatements are a big part of the reason people rail against apple and its users.

 

[shurcooL]

Why are the specs of a year-old hardware revision relevant now heading into 2012? Honestly, what’s the point of this?

It's the year's end, I wanted to look back and reflect.

 

[MrCrispy]

Its less to do with user experience, and more to do with profit margins, cost of retooling etc. Apple know full well their products will sell no matter what's inside.

Yes they are bold, bold enough to lie in their ads, bold enough to refuse to admit any flaws and charge outrageous prices for old hardware. You could make the case that OSX running on any modern cpu would provide the exact same benefits as on Macs, without the Apple Tax. This is not like the iPhone where iOS has been optimized to run on their SoC's, its commodity Intel pc components, and Apple choose the bare minimum they can get away with. There are a few exceptions like Thunderbolt support, but for the most part the 'magic' of Mac's lies in the software.

 

[shurcooL]

Yes they are bold, bold enough to lie in their ads, bold enough to refuse to admit any flaws and charge outrageous prices for old hardware. You could make the case that OSX running on any modern cpu would provide the exact same benefits as on Macs, without the Apple Tax. This is not like the iPhone where iOS has been optimized to run on their SoC's, its commodity Intel pc components, and Apple choose the bare minimum they can get away with. There are a few exceptions like Thunderbolt support, but for the most part the 'magic' of Mac's lies in the software.

Yes, that's true, and you are paying for that software and the R&D that went into it when you buy a Mac.

Similarly to how one would pay for a Windows licence separately if they build their own custom PC from parts.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Yes but apple always is "behind" on their hardware by at least 6 + months in most cases because they don't refresh often enough, sure the Air is a great line and now other companies are getting into Ultraportables, but i wouldn't really praise apple for being slow to the game as mentioned above, they lie and manipulate to make people think they are getting the latest and greatest.

 

[xacid]

@ryken I've only had the SSD in since end of November and even before that I enjoyed my MBP more than my i7 desktop. My desktop is only used for Gaming and XBMC otherwise I'm using my MBP.

I feel Windows is bloated, a typical Win 7 install is what 15GB on average where OS X is around 8GB. There is a lot of software in Windows that people don't need and can easily be removed and if needed later downloaded. Additionally can we get a new GUI for Windows? been pretty much the same layout since 95. Yes we got more detail and more panes inside the windows but overall its dated.

Ironically I was talking to my brother today about OS X hardware support. I have a G500 mouse and he has the one that predates mine. Logitech doesn't support OS X so only 3-4 buttons work out of the box. Yes it sucks cause Apple is limiting hardware but it allows them to keep focus on a smaller set of things to manage opposed to Microsoft that has to support thousands of devices. Be my example only a mouse but it gets to the point.

 

[Andross182]

Apple's ideals for user experience > raw specs has its benifits and downfalls. The biggest thing that pisses me off is that if you want an i7-2600k variant...its only available as a 200 dollar upgrade in their top of the line iMac...which starts at 1999 (2199 with the i7-2600). Of course there are fun ways around this *cough* hackintosh *cough* but for most end users that need the power...they get shafted.

 

[wonderfield]

...they lie and manipulate to make people think they are getting the latest and greatest.

Please point out, specifically, which lies you're referring to.

Logitech doesn't support OS X so only 3-4 buttons work out of the box.

Logitech has their own OS X app for mouse management called Control Center (which supports Lion), but it only works for some mice. The G500 is unfortunately not one of them.

To my knowledge Apple has nothing to do with what Logitech mice are supported in OS X. That's up to hardware vendors to offer support &#8212; the onus there is not on Apple.

 

[Terpfen]

To my knowledge Apple has nothing to do with what Logitech mice are supported in OS X. That's up to hardware vendors to offer support — the onus there is not on Apple.

This is correct. The issue with Logitech mice in OS X is that Logitech Control Center is a POS, not that Apple somehow blocks their products from working correctly.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

This is correct. The issue with Logitech mice in OS X is that Logitech Control Center is a POS, not that Apple somehow blocks their products from working correctly.

The LCC wasn't so great in earlier iterations, but I have found that I have excellent control over my MX Revolution in Lion and Snow Leopard. I am sad to hear that not all of their mices are supported however.

It's unfortunate that in cases such as these, USB Overdrive and SteerMouse are the only alternatives, both of which must be paid for in addition to a mouse that should already work.

 

[Zumino Zufeilon]

Yes but apple always is "behind" on their hardware by at least 6 + months in most cases because they don't refresh often enough, sure the Air is a great line and now other companies are getting into Ultraportables, but i wouldn't really praise apple for being slow to the game as mentioned above, they lie and manipulate to make people think they are getting the latest and greatest.

Funny, I seem to remember the very first laptops actually available with Sandy Bridge processors were Apples.

Because Apple refreshes their line less often then other computer manufacturer's, sometimes individual spec's are 6 months out of date, but other times (e.g. the Early 2011 refresh), Apple is ahead of the curve.

While Moore's law is a bit of a PITA, Intel only refreshes/speedbumps every 8ish months anyways. So only just recently has the MBP 'fallen' behind the latest and greatest PC's, and it's still only a very small distance behind.

The "Apple's are overpriced and underhardwared" is generally overblown tremendously.

Even the "worst" example in recent history, the 2010 MBA/13"MBP was based on a very obvious decision caused by space on the logic board. Apple could choose between two options, a faster processor with a MUCH slower video card, or a slower processor with a much faster video card. Apple looked at how people actually used their computers, and decided the faster video card was more important. That was a value judgement on Apple's point.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is correct. The issue with Logitech mice in OS X is that Logitech Control Center is a POS, not that Apple somehow blocks their products from working correctly.

Well let's be fair, how often does something not work in Windows well and it's not Microsoft's fault either? Yet Microsoft gets the blame. That's just how it works sometimes when your name is at the top of the marquee.

 

[Terpfen]

Well let's be fair, how often does something not work in Windows well and it's not Microsoft's fault either? Yet Microsoft gets the blame. That's just how it works sometimes when your name is at the top of the marquee.

Oh, well, then. That makes it totally correct and acceptable for a supposedly informed group of persons such as [H]ardforum members.

Sorry, but being wrong (and willfully ignorant, in MrGuvernment's case) is not acceptable just because of "the marquee". Screw the marquee. That's for people who shoot off their mouths. People on this site are supposed to be at least more thoughtful than that.

 

[wonderfield]

Funny, I seem to remember the very first laptops actually available with Sandy Bridge processors were Apples.

Apple was also first to the party with Nehalem-architecture CPUs in the Mac Pro.

 

[heatlesssun]

Oh, well, then. That makes it totally correct and acceptable for a supposedly informed group of persons such as [H]ardforum members.

Sorry, but being wrong (and willfully ignorant, in MrGuvernment's case) is not acceptable just because of "the marquee". Screw the marquee. That's for people who shoot off their mouths. People on this site are supposed to be at least more thoughtful than that.

When it comes to bashing whoever one's favorite target is, people in the "know" are often the most visceral. If you don't know anything about the subject it's hard to worked up about it. I'm not making trying to make excuses, just pointing out the reality.

 

[heatlesssun]

Apple was also first to the party with Nehalem-architecture CPUs in the Mac Pro.

Apple does tend to get first crack at Intel technology going back to when Apple switch over to x86 CPUs, nothing really new.

 

[Terpfen]

When it comes to bashing whoever one's favorite target is, people in the "know" are often the most visceral. If you don't know anything about the subject it's hard to worked up about it. I'm not making trying to make excuses, just pointing out the reality.

No, you're pointing out what they're perceiving. I'm pointing out the reality of why their perception is wrong.

 

[heatlesssun]

No, you're pointing out what they're perceiving. I'm pointing out the reality of why their perception is wrong.

As the cliche goes perception is reality. Reality I find is experience. You're a big Apple guru so I would tend to listen to what you say as having weight since you have experience. I'm not a Mac user but I know a thing or two Windows and some of the more exotic hardware it works with, sometimes people listen. Sometimes people are logical about it but again often I find that people that into tech sites and such but that don't have any experience are the most stubborn.

 

[Terpfen]

As the cliche goes perception is reality.

Yes, thus it becomes necessary to introduce facts to correct the perception.

I don't know what you're arguing here. That it's alright to let people be wrong? No, it's not.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yes, thus it becomes necessary to introduce facts to correct the perception.

I don't know what you're arguing here. That it's alright to let people be wrong? No, it's not.

I was just pointing out the nature of how this works. I leave it to you then to correct the world when they place blame on the wrong party, hopefully even when the wrongly accused isn't Apple.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Oh, well, then. That makes it totally correct and acceptable for a supposedly informed group of persons such as [H]ardforum members.

Sorry, but being wrong (and willfully ignorant, in MrGuvernment's case) is not acceptable just because of "the marquee". Screw the marquee. That's for people who shoot off their mouths. People on this site are supposed to be at least more thoughtful than that.

hardly ignorant or wrong, SB i didn't follow but, in years past i never saw Apple up to date with hardware in terms of CPU or video cards in any of their systems compared to what you could build or buy with Dell / HP and other OEM's.

Other OEM's as soon as new hardware is out, it is being sold, not the case with Apple since they have set release cycles when ever they decided to do a release, thus often putting them behind on hardware at some point and then finally playing catch up when they do a new release, using hardware that one could buy for months past already.

I am very aware of apple and spent many days researching laptops when i bought my macbook black. Any time i had in the past compared apple systems to other OEM, the offerings were dated, perhaps that changed for the last 2 Intel releases due to them being inline with apple releases...

Lenovo had Intel i Series laptops out in 2010 , the Apple laptops came out with i series in February 24, 2011 on the mac book pro, not sure when lenovo released it's first SB laptops, cant find an exact date...

Please correct me if i am wrong, instead of trying to insult me as most Apple fans tend to do as their defense is simply claim people are wrong and ignorant instead of providing some linkage.

 

[Grentz]

I feel Windows is bloated, a typical Win 7 install is what 15GB on average where OS X is around 8GB. There is a lot of software in Windows that people don't need and can easily be removed and if needed later downloaded. Additionally can we get a new GUI for Windows? been pretty much the same layout since 95. Yes we got more detail and more panes inside the windows but overall its dated.

Ironically I was talking to my brother today about OS X hardware support. I have a G500 mouse and he has the one that predates mine. Logitech doesn't support OS X so only 3-4 buttons work out of the box. Yes it sucks cause Apple is limiting hardware but it allows them to keep focus on a smaller set of things to manage opposed to Microsoft that has to support thousands of devices. Be my example only a mouse but it gets to the point.

First, don't judge how "bloated" an OS is based on the disk space it is using. Win 7 can be stripped WAYY down if you take things like extra drivers out. By the same token, OSX can get friggin huge with the driver and extra packs installed.

Second, the dated look? OSX has arguably changed less over the 10years than Windows has for the number of versions it has. (OSX Cheetah to Lion, vs. Windows 2000 to Windows 7)

 

[MrGuvernment]

^^ i was going to say, neither OS has changed much, but that is because people would flip out, just look at XP interface to Vista, people despised it!