HP Brings Back Windows 7 'By Popular Demand'

Everything is OK until January 14, 2020 when support ends for Windows 7. By then Windows 10 will be out and Microsoft will be putting out press releases saying that Windows 11 will fix whatever is wrong with Windows 10.
 
MrGuvernment said:
People hated XP too... see how that ended.......
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Huge difference. The XP hate was in form - people hated the "Fisher Price" color scheme and reorganized Start Menu. Additionally, Microsoft gave XP a classic theme that made it look exactly the same as Windows 2000. I don't know of any serious power user that hated the under-the-hood changes XP brought. In fact, most of the "hate" was just snobbery, since XP was perceived at the time as nothing more than Windows 2000 with a new color scheme. ("What changes did we make this year? We put an 8 on the box.")

The Win8 hate is function, not just a color scheme. It is an objectively worse interface if you are using a keyboard and mouse. And it's been hashed to death, but unlike XP, there is no option to use the old interface. It's being forced on us (for the reasons stated above - trying to force people into Metro Apps and the MS App Store).
 
So HP can do this, and there's nothing wrong here but they don't have an 8" Windows 8.1 Bay Trail tablet? Dell, Toshiba, Acer and Lenovo which is now about to release its second 8" tablet have them in market and Asus is about to release one at a low price with a Wacom digitizer. And HP may have perfectly good reasons for not producing this kind of device but they just haven't done a good job with creating anything that's created any kind of buzz even with people like me that like Windows 8.
 
Parja said:
Their app store, which has quickly become the Mos Eisley of app stores.
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The app situation isn't nearly where it needs to be. But it's a lot better than a year ago, there's now official Facebook, Flipboard, Mint, etc. apps. One problem has been Google, they have no desire to support Windows 8, however there are a number of excellent 3rd party YouTube apps which are nicer than the web site even on a desktop. The big gap that I see in the Windows Store is games by a wide margin.
 
There is a big challenge at this moment that Microsoft needs to be careful - if IHV like AMD or Nvidia improves their support and commitment to linux giving the same or better performance than windows, one thing I'm sure - the giant will fall.
 
Edit: Just want to add that IMO Windows8 interface is an error / mistake - a big mistake - this is just my opinion.
I don't know if windows 8 is faster than windows 7. Having single digit more performance is not enough for a change.
 
russo121 said:
There is a big challenge at this moment that Microsoft needs to be careful - if IHV like AMD or Nvidia improves their support and commitment to linux giving the same or better performance than windows, one thing I'm sure - the giant will fall.
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Sure, if you make a Distro that works just as smooth and user friendly as Windows. Oh, and well you are at it, make all the Windows apps work on it. Be willing to pay for support and the OS itself so the producer can make it better. This was tried multiple times and so far has failed every, single, time!
 
ManofGod said:
Sure, if you make a Distro that works just as smooth and user friendly as Windows. Oh, and well you are at it, make all the Windows apps work on it. Be willing to pay for support and the OS itself so the producer can make it better. This was tried multiple times and so far has failed every, single, time!
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The logic of these statements is baffling. Windows 8.x gets called and a colossal and epic failure by many here yet has about 10% of the desktop OS market in 14 months. But hey desktop Linux has been around since the 90's and has a whopping less than 2% market share. And use all know that Microsoft won't improve things because it's not like everyone talks about the good release, bad release cycle of Windows.

Part of the reason why Microsoft did what it did with Windows 8 is because they won the desktop war long ago.
 
heatlesssun said:
The app situation isn't nearly where it needs to be. But it's a lot better than a year ago, there's now official Facebook, Flipboard, Mint, etc. apps. One problem has been Google, they have no desire to support Windows 8, however there are a number of excellent 3rd party YouTube apps which are nicer than the web site even on a desktop. The big gap that I see in the Windows Store is games by a wide margin.
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There are two reasons for this :

1.Visual Studio is outrageously expensive. No one is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on Visual Studio licenses for their programmers when Apple and Google give away their developer tools; especially given the low profit margins of apps. Express edition is too crippled to be useful for a serious developer and the distinctions between the SKUs are arbitrary and capricious.

2.Developing apps for Metro requires one to consent to a virtual strip search in which Microsoft installs spyware on your computer and monitors you to make sure that you aren't installing any unapproved apps on the computer that you bought with your own money.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh974578.aspx

Microsoft can detect fraudulent use of a developer license on a registered machine. If Microsoft detects fraudulent use or another violation of the software license terms, we might revoke your developer license. The monitoring process helps ensure the overall health of the app marketplace.
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DraginDime said:
I think Win8 was the product of "the pc is dying" and "tablets are the future" with Microsoft trying to be proactive to the future.
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Specifically, it was the chicken little approach to "PC sales are declining" .. Its all relative and tons of PCs still get sold every year. This wasnt a black and white, all or nothing issue and MS made it one after Sinofsky convonced Ballmer that desktop users would embrace a tablet UI and it would mean quick overnight gains in the mobile segments theyre so desperate to catch up in.

Backfired, miserably. Now all they've done is created a generation of Windows desktop users that wince and dry heave when they see ads for or walk by a Metro based mobile device because theyve associated the giant idiotboxes with frustration and annoyance.
 
InorganicMatter said:
Huge difference. The XP hate was in form - people hated the "Fisher Price" color scheme and reorganized Start Menu. Additionally, Microsoft gave XP a classic theme that made it look exactly the same as Windows 2000. I don't know of any serious power user that hated the under-the-hood changes XP brought. In fact, most of the "hate" was just snobbery, since XP was perceived at the time as nothing more than Windows 2000 with a new color scheme. ("What changes did we make this year? We put an 8 on the box.")

The Win8 hate is function, not just a color scheme. It is an objectively worse interface if you are using a keyboard and mouse. And it's been hashed to death, but unlike XP, there is no option to use the old interface. It's being forced on us (for the reasons stated above - trying to force people into Metro Apps and the MS App Store).
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This post nails it.
 
damicatz said:
There are two reasons for this :

1.Visual Studio is outrageously expensive. No one is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on Visual Studio licenses for their programmers when Apple and Google give away their developer tools; especially given the low profit margins of apps. Express edition is too crippled to be useful for a serious developer and the distinctions between the SKUs are arbitrary and capricious.
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There are free versions of VS, anyone today can download the tools to develop Windows Store apps for free.

damicatz said:
2.Developing apps for Metro requires one to consent to a virtual strip search in which Microsoft installs spyware on your computer and monitors you to make sure that you aren't installing any unapproved apps on the computer that you bought with your own money.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh974578.aspx
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I have "unapproved" apps running, the point here really is about widespread distribution outside of the Windows Store.
 
heatlesssun said:
There are free versions of VS, anyone today can download the tools to develop Windows Store apps for free.
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And as I just said, Express Edition is crippleware. Sorry, but, Microsoft's old business model of requiring a second mortgage to be able to afford their software is simply not going to continue to work, especially in mobile where they do not have the benefit of a 95% market-share. Both Apple and Google realize that developers who develop applications for their platform are adding value to their platform which is why they give away their developer tools. They recoup the development costs of the tools through app store revenue.

People tolerated having to spend $13,000 on a Visual Studio Ultimate license to get stuff you get for free in Java (e.g. temporal debugging) because Microsoft had a 95% marketshare in the desktop and you really had no other choices if you wanted to develop desktop applications (other than Delphi, which is equally overpriced). The same is not true for mobile.

I have "unapproved" apps running, the point here really is about widespread distribution outside of the Windows Store.
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No, the point is that in order to develop apps for Windows 8, you have to give Microsoft access to your computer so they can monitor what programs you have installed.
 
damicatz said:
And as I just said, Express Edition is crippleware. Sorry, but, Microsoft's old business model of requiring a second mortgage to be able to afford their software is simply not going to continue to work, especially in mobile where they do not have the benefit of a 95% market-share. Both Apple and Google realize that developers who develop applications for their platform are adding value to their platform which is why they give away their developer tools. They recoup the development costs of the tools through app store revenue.

People tolerated having to spend $13,000 on a Visual Studio Ultimate license to get stuff you get for free in Java (e.g. temporal debugging) because Microsoft had a 95% marketshare in the desktop and you really had no other choices if you wanted to develop desktop applications (other than Delphi, which is equally overpriced). The same is not true for mobile.



No, the point is that in order to develop apps for Windows 8, you have to give Microsoft access to your computer so they can monitor what programs you have installed.
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This guy sounds rational. I agree with him.
 
russo121 said:
Just want to add that IMO Windows8 interface is an error / mistake - a big mistake - this is just my opinion.
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I don't know how the dual UI with significantly different appearance and behavior ever got greenlighted.
 
People arent buying pc because the old pc's still run fine. I can't justify spending 100k on rolling out new pc's at my work because our current pc's which are now 6yrs with SSD's are running everything fine.
 
damicatz said:
And as I just said, Express Edition is crippleware. Sorry, but, Microsoft's old business model of requiring a second mortgage to be able to afford their software is simply not going to continue to work, especially in mobile where they do not have the benefit of a 95% market-share. Both Apple and Google realize that developers who develop applications for their platform are adding value to their platform which is why they give away their developer tools. They recoup the development costs of the tools through app store revenue.
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So just how is the VS Express Windows Store Edition crippled compared to the Ultimate Edition? A lot of the stuff in the paid versions of VS related to large scale, large staff projects, requirements tracking and test, etc. The cost of the developer tools isn't why Google hasn't made an official YouTube client or why small, independent developers have developed great apps like Hyper for YouTube or very highly regarded Twitter client Tweetium. Indeed much of the issue for the Windows Store is about the AAA titles where the cost of tools really isn't the issue.

damicatz said:
People tolerated having to spend $13,000 on a Visual Studio Ultimate license to get stuff you get for free in Java (e.g. temporal debugging) because Microsoft had a 95% marketshare in the desktop and you really had no other choices if you wanted to develop desktop applications (other than Delphi, which is equally overpriced). The same is not true for mobile.
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$13,000 (well $13,299) is standard price for an MSDN Ultimate annual subscription is a LOT more than just Visual Studio.

damicatz said:
No, the point is that in order to develop apps for Windows 8, you have to give Microsoft access to your computer so they can monitor what programs you have installed.
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That's not what the post you linked to said. There is a license key associated with unlocking the ability to run arbitrarily modern apps and if they didn't monitor this people could arbitrary unlock machines to run modern apps outside of the Windows Store. For better or for worse, this type of software distribution and control is huge now and it also protects developers from others redistributing their apps.
 
MS needs to take the "have it your way" approach and have both interfaces and allow the consumer to choose which they like and for what platform.
This would eliminate all the bitching. One size fits all does not work all that well.

8 has a more robust kernel then 7 and, although I have not seen benches it's 4K native so HDD's should be theoretically faster that are AF.
 
damicatz said:
People tolerated having to spend $13,000 on a Visual Studio Ultimate license to get stuff you get for free in Java (e.g. temporal debugging) because Microsoft had a 95% marketshare in the desktop and you really had no other choices if you wanted to develop desktop applications (other than Delphi, which is equally overpriced). The same is not true for mobile.
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Yeah sorry but you're ludicrously exaggerating.

My copy of VS 2013 Premium with MSDN costs my employer $2300/year. I make heavy use of MSDN (particularly Azure), but if you don't, you can just buy the software itself with no subscription for $500.
 
InorganicMatter said:
Yeah sorry but you're ludicrously exaggerating.

My copy of VS 2013 Premium with MSDN costs my employer $2300/year. I make heavy use of MSDN (particularly Azure), but if you don't, you can just buy the software itself with no subscription for $500.
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You can't get Premium without MSDN.

heatlesssun said:
So just how is the VS Express Windows Store Edition crippled compared to the Ultimate Edition? A lot of the stuff in the paid versions of VS related to large scale, large staff projects, requirements tracking and test, etc. The cost of the developer tools isn't why Google hasn't made an official YouTube client or why small, independent developers have developed great apps like Hyper for YouTube or very highly regarded Twitter client Tweetium. Indeed much of the issue for the Windows Store is about the AAA titles where the cost of tools really isn't the issue.
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No a lot of stuff is not limited to large scale projects. There are plenty of features that projects of all scales would benefit from (the aforementioned temporal debugging as well as addin/plugin support, performance analysis/profiling etc.)

This is a fairly common display of arrogance for Microsoft is that they simply do not understand small businesses or home users and what they do and don't need.

$13,000 (well $13,299) is standard price for an MSDN Ultimate annual subscription is a LOT more than just Visual Studio.
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You can't get Ultimate without MSDN.

That's not what the post you linked to said. There is a license key associated with unlocking the ability to run arbitrarily modern apps and if they didn't monitor this people could arbitrary unlock machines to run modern apps outside of the Windows Store. For better or for worse, this type of software distribution and control is huge now and it also protects developers from others redistributing their apps.
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And you can't develop Metro applications without some way to test them.

I refuse to use Metro/Modern or whatever the hell they call it because I will not use an environment that dictates what I can and cannot install on MY own damn computer. When Microsoft pays for my computer, they will have the right to dictate what I can and cannot install on it. Until such time, they can go fuck themselves.
 
damicatz said:
You can't get Ultimate without MSDN.
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My point though was that price you're getting the entire Microsoft software stack, every version of Windows client and server, Office, access to Azure, etc. $13000 is the new list price (it can be had for less) but the renewal price is quite a bit less at $4300. One doesn't need access to Dynamics or System Server if one is looking to develop modern apps. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Microsoft to just give all this away for nothing. But selling software is still their primary model. But I wouldn't be surprised if some people on your side of the open source fence wouldn't want Microsoft to give away all of this stuff.


damicatz said:
No a lot of stuff is not limited to large scale projects. There are plenty of features that projects of all scales would benefit from (the aforementioned temporal debugging as well as addin/plugin support, performance analysis/profiling etc.)
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Certainly some of the more advance collaborative features in TFS are for large scale development.

damicatz said:
This is a fairly common display of arrogance for Microsoft is that they simply do not understand small businesses or home users and what they do and don't need.
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Sure cheaper stuff is would be great but at the same time desktop Linux is free and that's not done so well with small businesses or home users and local client alternatives to Office haven't made much impact either.

damicatz said:
And you can't develop Metro applications without some way to test them.

I refuse to use Metro/Modern or whatever the hell they call it because I will not use an environment that dictates what I can and cannot install on MY own damn computer. When Microsoft pays for my computer, they will have the right to dictate what I can and cannot install on it. Until such time, they can go fuck themselves.
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This just doesn't mesh with reality. When did Microsoft start dictating what desktop apps people could install on Windows 8? Curated app stores, rail against them all you want, they've become huge and popular, how hasn't downloaded an app from an app store at this point?
 
The truth is that Windows 8 needs a 3rd party app to become a fine OS. Once people realize that, then Windows 8 will be fine.
 
It's really a good idea. Maybe HP can compensate for missed sales due to the perception about Win 8 by offering consumers something they're apparently more interested in purchasing.
 
ManofGod said:
Vista was good, especially after SP1 and SP2. (64 Bit anyways.) XP was not the cats pajamas when it first came out but, I did like it back then.
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pretty much, I was on Vista for another year after win7 came out. V-SP2 and 7 was pretty much the same.

ManofGod said:
Oh, and the only issue with ME was that it was not stable. The speed and new features where good but MS never really put much effort into it in my opinion.
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I used ME......it was terrible even with patching and the correct drivers....biggest mistake I ever made. Couldn't go to 98SE, i was broke already. :rolleyes:
 
trick_m0nkey said:
The truth is that Windows 8 needs a 3rd party app to become a fine OS. Once people realize that, then Windows 8 will be fine.
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May be fine for most of the enthusiast crowd that don't mind doing something like that, but average John or Jane Doe computer user isn't going to be able to figure that out and a lot of enterprise IT depts forbid the installation of 3rd party crapware within their controlled infrastructures. Microsoft fucked up big time by releasing W8 containing a shit GUI, plain and simple...the fact that one of the world's largest OEM computer sellers is actively advertising Win 7 is yet more proof to that. Win9 is rumored to be releasing by the end of this year, FFS...that means Microsoft is ready to move past this current shit pile of an OS. Dont know why there are still people that just can't seem to accept that W8 is a massive failure and move on with their lives, other than being attention whoring internet trolls.
 
I don't understand all this hate on eight (yes that was intended). There are two really easy ways to make it "just like 7" but you still get all the benefits of windows 8 backend improvements. My parents are on 8 and most of the time they don't use the "fancy menu" or the classic desktop. They are either in Outlook or IE. Only thing I know is the machine has been flawless for the past year.

I swear most are raging because they having nothing more important life to worry about; and I find that a little sad. :(
 
DejaWiz said:
Dont know why there are still people that just can't seem to accept that W8 is a massive failure and move on with their lives, other than being attention whoring internet trolls.
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I don't know why people constantly call a desktop OS that has more market share combined than all other desktop OSes combined not called Windows in 14 months a massive failure. There is middle ground between massive failure and stunning success. Of course 8 has its issues with a lot of desktop people, that's been obvious from day one.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't know why people constantly call a desktop OS that has more market share combined than all other desktop OSes combined not called Windows in 14 months a massive failure. There is middle ground between massive failure and stunning success. Of course 8 has its issues with a lot of desktop people, that's been obvious from day one.
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More market share combined than all other "desktop OSes" combined not called Windows? Well no shit. The combined market share of non-Windows DESKTOP operating systems is tiny.

Windows 7 has more market share than every desktop OS combined - including all other versions of Windows, and its share is still increasing even though W8 has been out for 14 months. Big fuckin' failure.
 
ManofGod said:
Oh, and the only issue with ME was that it was not stable. The speed and new features where good but MS never really put much effort into it in my opinion.
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Actually ME was quite stable if you ran it on hardware that was designed for ME, unfortunately said hardware wasn't on the market until right before XP launched. I built a PC right around that time and I ran ME on it until SP1 came out for XP because XP was less stable on that computer before SP1. I used ME on a couple computers that weren't made for it and they were a nightmare to use so I understand the hate however I always thought that 9X were the least stable versions of Windows, it seemed like you could sneeze and the drivers would get corrupted somehow.
 
DejaWiz said:
More market share combined than all other "desktop OSes" combined not called Windows? Well no shit. The combined market share of non-Windows DESKTOP operating systems is tiny.

Windows 7 has more market share than every desktop OS combined - including all other versions of Windows, and its share is still increasing even though W8 has been out for 14 months. Big fuckin' failure.
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11%, roughly 8's current market share isn't exactly tiny and Windows 7's market share was going to tick up a bit no matter what 8 looked liked because there's plenty of people STILL doing XP to 7 migrations that started long ago and weren't going to change direction simply because a new version of Windows came out.

In any case, I don't think Microsoft will just revert back to 7's UI or offering a Metro off switch in 9. The modern UI is still going to be there but tweaked better for the desktop. We've been here before plenty of times. Microsoft makes big changes in Windows, there's problems and then they fix the major stuff in the next release, but they don't generally just drop something major from on release to the next. Think of UAC in Vista, that certainly got a lot of hate and it gets fixed in 7 and all is good.

8 was always going to have a tough time, I've said that from the beginning and I never, ever said it was going to be any big success. But there's still more to this story before 9 and that's going to be how Windows tablets do this year with the arrival of these cheap Bay Trail devices that have gotten very positive reviews overall. There's probably going to be some pretty significant growth here and ironically it is the hybrid design of Windows 8 that's a big selling point for these devices.
 
Oh come on, you can't compare UAC to UI design issues. Modern/Metro is so unpopular they're calling it "Modern" now. The notion that they can't turn it off in win9 is silly considering you have the desktop still under there. How hyrbid of a OS is it when they want you to stay in their controlled realm of metro modern even when not on a touchscreen system aka tablet?

Trepidation: "I swear most are raging because they having nothing more important life to worry about; and I find that a little sad."

I have plenty to worry about in life such that I shouldn't be worrying about dealing with metro/modern on a non touch screen system. All those backend improvements don't mean squat if I can't stand the front end.
 
Ranulfo said:
Oh come on, you can't compare UAC to UI design issues. Modern/Metro is so unpopular they're calling it "Modern" now. The notion that they can't turn it off in win9 is silly considering you have the desktop still under there. How hyrbid of a OS is it when they want you to stay in their controlled realm of metro modern even when not on a touchscreen system aka tablet?
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UAC is a UI that was considered to aggressive and disruptive to workflow, and while not the same thing as the modern UI the criticisms are reminiscent. And stay in their controlled environment? How is being able to run whatever kind of app, desktop or modern on whatever kind of device one wants being controlled?
 
I think Windows 8/8.1 is a perfectly good domestic OS. However, I've never been convinced of its Corporate/Enterprise credentials in terms of look and feel with having the 'fun' time wasting Modern part.

I would have expected all versions of Pro/Enterprise to have a 'Modern OFF' switch as standard in the install.

I would also say that I always felt that MS never considered 8 an OS for the enterprise and wanted instead to create a Apps Store via the domestic route.

MS doesn't need to create an Enterprise OS every time. Why waste its time when it and the Enterprise knows when they are going to do a major move. With 7 only two years old they knew damn well corporations were not going to move to 8 from XP. There is a pretty well defined cycle to all this. Y2K set the cycle for most of the business world.
 
heatlesssun said:
I don't know why people constantly call a desktop OS that has more market share combined than all other desktop OSes combined not called Windows in 14 months a massive failure.
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Take out all of the new devices sold with Win8 pre-installed, then tell me what the market share is. If it's even a quarter of that number, I'd be shocked.
 
Parja said:
Take out all of the new devices sold with Win8 pre-installed, then tell me what the market share is. If it's even a quarter of that number, I'd be shocked.
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That would be the case for every version of Windows. The vast majority of copies of Windows come with new hardware.
 
Funny how many times the fanbois and astroturfers insulted me for stating the obvious, the OS is ok, but the damn interface blows.

Said it from day one, when i got my hands on the preview release.

I hope that they continue using this stupid UI, so they can finally die.
 
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