How much will drivers improve 6970?

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jpinks

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I know its a loaded question. I have been waiting since Sept to buy a new card and I usually keep them for several years when i upgrade my entire system. I had a 5870 but my old nvidia card 6800GTX died in my sons pc so I gave him my 5870 to go back to school. So my gaming rig has been down. I just wonder if drivers stand any chance of bringing it closer to the 580. I have read the reviews but nobody's reviews agree on much. Totally Lost on this launch. :confused:
 
Well, it has 20% more shader groups (384 4D vs 320 5D), and it performs about 20% better. Sure, it's also clocked 30MHz higher, but that's extremely marginal. But then, the HD6870 manages to get within spitting range of the HD5870 with almost 480 fewer shaders, so we may see better performance, yet.

This is an edit, I don't really know, come to think of it. I'm sorry :(
 
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Anandtech seems to think the that the 69xx cards will have much more room for improvement in drivers than other cards. They base this on the fact that they think the driver coders may not be very good yet at programming for the new VLIW4 design, compared to the VLIW5 design ATI has been using for years.

I think it would be poor decision though to buy a product based on what it might do. If you won't be happy with the performance shown in the launch reviews, then you probably shouldn't buy it.
 
jamesrb said:
Anandtech seems to think the that the 69xx cards will have much more room for improvement in drivers than other cards. They base this on the fact that they think the driver coders may not be very good yet at programming for the new VLIW4 design, compared to the VLIW5 design ATI has been using for years.

I think it would be poor decision though to buy a product based on what it might do. If you won't be happy with the performance shown in the launch reviews, then you probably shouldn't buy it.
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x2

it is more likely that things get worse before they get better, especially with AMD working on things like a new GUI instead of fixing problems that have been around for a dozen revisions.
 
crawlgsx said:
x2

it is more likely that things get worse before they get better, especially with AMD working on things like a new GUI instead of fixing problems that have been around for a dozen revisions.
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Protip: People who code UIs aren't the same people as those who write hardware-level code.
 
Anandtech generally knows whats going on and they seem to believe there is def room for improvement in this architecture.

Also, to the guy who commented on the UI... that is 100% a different team working on that.
 
jeremyshaw said:
Well, it has 20% more shader groups (384 4D vs 320 5D), and it performs about 20% better. Sure, it's also clocked 30MHz higher, but that's extremely marginal. But then, the HD6870 manages to get within spitting range of the HD5870 with almost 480 fewer shaders, so we may see better performance, yet.

This is an edit, I don't really know, come to think of it. I'm sorry :(
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See thats what I keep looking at. I see these specs and think where is all the performance? With the reviews all being all over the place on scores I am totally lost on what to believe. How immature are these drivers?? Has AMD made any comments?
 
crawlgsx said:
x2

it is more likely that things get worse before they get better, especially with AMD working on things like a new GUI instead of fixing problems that have been around for a dozen revisions.
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AMD's not doing the GUI, its a separate company doing the GUI.

seeing as how over the life of the 5870 AMD was some how able to pull out an extra x1000 points in 3Dmark vantage(just using it as an example). there should be plenty of room for improvement over the life span of the 6970.


jpinks said:
See thats what I keep looking at. I see these specs and think where is all the performance? With the reviews all being all over the place on scores I am totally lost on what to believe. How immature are these drivers?? Has AMD made any comments?
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the drivers that were used in the majority of the reviews are very immature. the 10.12/10.12a hotfix drivers are suppose to be a lot better but only a couple reviews where done with the 10.12 preview drivers and not the WHQL drivers or hot fix(beta) drivers.
 
LOL I really see this launch as one of the all time most confusing launches ever. I cant believe AMD didnt have a better grip on the situation.
 
they only got around 6 months with drivers as 6900 taped out in may.
there be improvements.
more stable and optimizations, I dont expect much performance even though I am sure it be a bit higher.
 
jeremyshaw said:
how does it?
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They still have countless bugs that have been around forever that go unfixed while they create new fixes. Then sometimes those new fixes don't even make it into future driver releases (BC2 fix for 4*** series anyone?)

etc...
 
So realistically this is it on performance maybe another 5% at max?? Should I wait for another round of reviews with newer drivers or just buy the 580?
 
Considering they had half a year at least working on these drivers, improvements will probably be 5% here and there every quarter (3months). Don't pay what you think something will be worth in the future, pay what it is worth now.

At it currently stands, the 6970=570 in nearly every way, with no performance/dollar advantages and slightly less power consumed. If you have more dough and don't want to go SLI/Crossfire, there's only the 580.
 
Nightbird said:
Considering they had half a year at least working on these drivers, improvements will probably be 5% here and there every quarter (3months). Don't pay what you think something will be worth in the future, pay what it is worth now.

At it currently stands, the 6970=570 in nearly every way, with no performance/dollar advantages and slightly less power consumed. If you have more dough and don't want to go SLI/Crossfire, there's only the 580.
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i dont know what reviews your reading but its definitely not equal to the 570 except in BFBC2. but the way thats written your obviously a nvidia person so im not going to bother wasting my time proving my point.
 
sirmonkey1985 said:
i dont know what reviews your reading but its definitely not equal to the 570 except in BFBC2. but the way thats written your obviously a nvidia person so im not going to bother wasting my time proving my point.
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Because obviously a Nvidia troll lists an ATI card in his sig :D

I was really looking forward to 6970, and I do hope they will get drivers improved by the time 6990 comes out. That I am interested in.
 
Nightbird said:
Because obviously a Nvidia troll lists an ATI card in his sig :D

I was really looking forward to 6970, and I do hope they will get drivers improved by the time 6990 comes out. That I am interested in.
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I can list whatever I want in my sig. Bias is proven in past action and words.
I have both ATi and nVidia. Take that! :D

That being said... I don't really care if anybody was/is a fanboi of either side. Cause I have short term memory :p
 
People who say six months is enough for performance no. I know a few freinds who are programmers and they always tell me any hardware the number one priority is stability. Performance is always second to that.

So on a new design I am sure they have worked on making stable drivers, that is why you see performance in some games so up and down. May be they have maxed it out, but I doubt it. I read in anands review where on some of the benches the card just didn't perform and anand was saying the amd said they need more time to work on optimization for the new shader design. so I am sure you will see this card getting much better in time to come. Just look at the 6870 it has charactristics of cayman design but it is still the old shader design, almost catches up to the 5870. I have no doubt the performance will get better over time.
 
the ATI apologists always seem to want, hope, dream, rationalize about possible future magic drivers and massive improvements...the guy below said it best...

jamesrb said:
I think it would be poor decision though to buy a product based on what it might do. If you won't be happy with the performance shown in the launch reviews, then you probably shouldn't buy it.
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the 6970 is what it is...Anandtech saying that the drivers show room for improvement is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow...don't the 570/580 drivers also show room for improvement?...stop trying to transform the card into something it is not...buy based on what it is NOT on what it could be
 
You guys Anand had a page in its review where it talked about the changes in the core. I don't understand what the implications are though, because I only get it up to the 'I liek Mudkipz' part.

I would appreciate it if someone who gets this would explain it for the rest of us. Please and thank you.
 
Nightbird said:
Considering they had half a year at least working on these drivers, improvements will probably be 5% here and there every quarter (3months). Don't pay what you think something will be worth in the future, pay what it is worth now.

At it currently stands, the 6970=570 in nearly every way, with no performance/dollar advantages and slightly less power consumed. If you have more dough and don't want to go SLI/Crossfire, there's only the 580.
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If I went by that logic everytime I was looking for a video card where it's pointless to buy a card now because the performance isn't there yet due to drivers, is rather irrational in my opinion. I would be ending up doing a few things if I did:

1.) Waiting on a buying the card months from now when the performance has improved but the next generation of cards is already released, in which case I'd ended up wanting to buy the next generation of cards...

... or...

2.) Going to the competition without thinking carefully how much I'd end up spending for just a few extra frames per second improvement.

And, in the end, it all depends on what games I'll be playing on and what resolution and settings. If I were to go spend money on the best video card every single time, that'd be foolish and I'd run out of money pretty fast.

It is lucky I am patient. I wouldn't mind waiting on drivers to improve performance. And, at the very least, AMD offers continuous driver updates every month, and fixes in-between. With Nvidia, I'd wait months for them to fix a problem in their drivers. Of course AMD's drivers aren't perfect, neither is Nvidia's. Neither company is perfect-- drivers or video cards.

So, your logic on buying a card now just because it performs best is your choice and not anyone else, and suggesting that to others is completely illogical without seeing the entire picture.
 
Nightbird said:
Considering they had half a year at least working on these drivers, improvements will probably be 5% here and there every quarter (3months). Don't pay what you think something will be worth in the future, pay what it is worth now.

At it currently stands, the 6970=570 in nearly every way, with no performance/dollar advantages and slightly less power consumed. If you have more dough and don't want to go SLI/Crossfire, there's only the 580.
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Without getting too technical, the ATI architecture hasn't changed substantially in about 4 generations (2x00-5x00 series). The 69xx series uses a totally reworked shader design in addition to all the other improvements and changes they have made. It is very likely that you will see more performance improvements with this series over it's lifespan than you have with the 4800, 5800 etc. 6 months to work on this design versus 3-4 years of refining the previous designs, it's truly not a lot of time.

I'm not recommending you base your purchase on what *may* happen - don't buy a card now if the performance isn't where you want it at - but I wouldn't at all be surprised to see the overall performance of the 6900 series improve noticeably in the next 3-6 months. I don't see NVIDIA getting the same improvements out of the 5xx series - though I'd love to be wrong, as I have SLI 580s :p
 
polonyc2 said:
the ATI apologists always seem to want, hope, dream, rationalize about possible future magic drivers and massive improvements...the guy below said it best...



the 6970 is what it is...Anandtech saying that the drivers show room for improvement is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow...don't the 570/580 drivers also show room for improvement?...stop trying to transform the card into something it is not...buy based on what it is NOT on what it could be
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I dont think anyone should expect it to get magically a lot better, may be it will match gtx 580 in most games not in half of them. Some improvements are expected on a new architecture. I have a gtx 480 and nvidia bumped up the performance after release by a little bit and really good in some games. Although I would not be surprise if they bumped it up quite a bit in the next few driver releases.
 
XacTactX said:
You guys Anand had a page in its review where it talked about the changes in the core. I don't understand what the implications are though, because I only get it up to the 'I liek Mudkipz' part.

I would appreciate it if someone who gets this would explain it for the rest of us. Please and thank you.
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5D = 4simple+1advanced
4D = 4medium

5D has 5 fixed function units (in a basic sense)
4D has 4 units. 3 of them can emulate the function of the missing advanced unit, though at a 1-2 clock disadvantage. AMD is convinced few with use the advanced functions enough to make an impact.

For die space, 4 medium is supposedly smaller than 4simple+1advanced.
 
polonyc2 said:
the ATI apologists always seem to want, hope, dream, rationalize about possible future magic drivers and massive improvements...the guy below said it best...



the 6970 is what it is...Anandtech saying that the drivers show room for improvement is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow...don't the 570/580 drivers also show room for improvement?...stop trying to transform the card into something it is not...buy based on what it is NOT on what it could be
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No you are wrong about this. Look back at the release of the 480/470 for Nvidia, at release they both were pretty poor. It wasn't until Nvidia released proper drivers about a month or so later that the 480/470 became cards worth having. The 580/570 is just the same as the 480/470 but just done better. You will only get see small gains in performance from now with drivers for the 5xx series.

It's the same now with 69xx and 68xx series from AMD. There is no official driver for the 69xx series of cards yet at all. Just like what Rizen says, that it is major change for AMD and I am going to go out on a limb and say that there should be pretty good gains in performance through drivers in the next few months. The potential is certainly there.
 
5% - 20% over the next 8 - 12 months depending on game. The newer games and games based on more popular engines and games will of course get the most attention. With older games and the less popular ones getting little or no love. Same as most every video card that came b4 it from either Ati/AMD or Nv.
 
reaper12 said:
You will only get see small gains in performance from now with drivers for the 5xx series
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there were huge gains in the 480 drivers from first release to now...so the 580 drivers are already pretty well optimized at launch which is a much better scenario then having to wait 7-8 months for it...which if ATI's previous track record holds should be the case with the 6970

plus to say that there won't be much more improvements with 580 drivers is silly...Nvidia's driver development people are much better then AMD's...Nvidia spent $2 million on Crysis 2 so I'm sure we will see some major improvements for that release and the countless other Nvidia sponsored games yet to be released

and there is an official driver for the 69xx series...the Catalyst 10.12a hotfix
 
polonyc2 said:
there were huge gains in the 480 drivers from first release to now...so the 580 drivers are already pretty well optimized at launch...<snip>...plus to say that there won't be much more improvements with 580 drivers is silly...
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Did you read through what you just wrote? First you're saying that the 580 had well-optimized drivers at launch, and then you're saying it's silly to think there won't be much more improvements?

You realize, of course, that you can only optimize so much? A new design will have far more room for improvements with drivers than simply a refresh of an older design. The 580 is a refresh and is unlikely to improve much more with drivers, while the 69xx series is a new design and is likely to improve far more with drivers.
 
I plan on using this card for at least 2 or 3 years, thats why I am wondering about performance. I game at 19x12, so when I do a new build one of my kids gets my old rig. In my situation it pays in the long run to get the best card I can. I just am so confused by caymans specs I would expect it to beat a 580 but it doesnt........
 
jpinks said:
I plan on using this card for at least 2 or 3 years, thats why I am wondering about performance. I game at 19x12, so when I do a new build one of my kids gets my old rig. In my situation it pays in the long run to get the best card I can. I just am so confused by caymans specs I would expect it to beat a 580 but it doesnt........
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Do you have a 120hz monitor? If not, these cards will max every game out there with max quality.
 
reaper12 said:
There is no official driver for the 69xx series of cards yet at all.
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That alone should be a warning sign. How do you release a card that doesn't have official drivers for it?

Nightbird said:
Do you have a 120hz monitor? If not, these cards will max every game out there with max quality.
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Depends on what you kind of framerates you mean by "max every game".
 
polonyc2 said:
there were huge gains in the 480 drivers from first release to now...
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Then there must have been huge gains for the 5870 as well, as if you look at some of the latest [H] evals with the 480 and the 5870, the 480 never did pull away from the 5870. The 5870 is still within 10% of the performance of the 480. The relative performance between cards almost never changes with newer drivers.

For the 69xx, you'll probably see some decent game-specific optimizations on the way. But I certainly wouldn't buy it based off of what it *might* do, instead I'd buy it based off of what it is currently - and for that I would go with the 6950. 570 performance with less heat, less power, and less cash, and the scaling on the 69xx is looking *really* good so far - can't wait to see [H]'s eval on that... (not that I'm planning on buying any of the new cards)
 
Well Terry Makedon (Catalyst Product Manager) is off the Catalyst team soon, we'll see what becomes of that.
 
Raap said:
Did you read through what you just wrote? First you're saying that the 580 had well-optimized drivers at launch, and then you're saying it's silly to think there won't be much more improvements?

You realize, of course, that you can only optimize so much? A new design will have far more room for improvements with drivers than simply a refresh of an older design. The 580 is a refresh and is unlikely to improve much more with drivers, while the 69xx series is a new design and is likely to improve far more with drivers.
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QFT. GTx 500 series is the same thing as 400 just done better, there are close to none architect changes, so I dont expect to see any improvements in any of the games that are already out. Gtx 400 series got great boosts after release in the coming months. I am sure the same will happen with the 6900 series as that is a new design.
 
load81 said:
They had to get them out before Christmass I would guess.
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True they wanted it released before christmas, and I think the primary reason for delay was the drivers, may be they were really bad last month. If it was really a shortage of components, you wouldn't see them flooding the market with the cards like that. you can obviously tell in some games that the card just has no improvements.
 
NKD said:
QFT. GTx 500 series is the same thing as 400 just done better, there are close to none architect changes, so I dont expect to see any improvements in any of the games that are already out. Gtx 400 series got great boosts after release in the coming months. I am sure the same will happen with the 6900 series as that is a new design.
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I'll say it again...$2 million....Crysis 2...don't think there will be a big driver boost?

DarkStryke said:
Well Terry Makedon (Catalyst Product Manager) is off the Catalyst team soon, we'll see what becomes of that.
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even more bad news...this is starting to get really bad for AMD
 
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