I can't imagine the ads survive if you install a clean ROM.
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Google Nexus 7 or Amazon Kindle Fire 2?
- Thread starter Archaea
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I can't imagine the ads survive if you install a clean ROM.
Obviously they'd disappear, installing CM is like installing an entirely different OS, even if based on the same code. It's the same exact thing as formatting your PC's OS drive and installing something else, even if something else is merely a clean copy of the OS instead of whatever your PC came with (tho CM obviously builds a lot of improvements on stock AOSP, so it's far more than a clean slate, and the Fire's Android build is far more of a divergence than any other manufacturer customization).
It's the same way installing CM (or another AOSP ROM) does away with things like Sense or TouchWiz, in their entirety. If you're able to install CM at all it's because you're able to wipe out whatever's in place (tho there's been dual boot solutions for some devices like the original Nook), because either Amazon gave users a way into the bootloader or people figured it out on their own. Things are substantially more locked down by default than with a PC so it's always tricky at first.
Frankly the ads on the lock screen wouldn't bother me much, on my phone it'd be anathema, my phone's lock screen serves much more useful purposes (music controls, texts/calendar preview, etc); but I can't remember the last time I spent more than a second on my tablet 's lock screen. Ads would be far from one of the first reasons to discard the stock build IMO.
If anything I'd switch to CM for any number of Play store apps not available on Amazon's market, along with the excellent native Gmail/Calendar apps that Amazon discards, not to mention Chrome (tab sync with other devices is huge IMO). Those are the things I was alluding to earlier...
That makes the comparison to other devices a lot more black and white tho... Extra storage, HDMI, better Wifi vs better raw performance, NFC, GPS, gyroscope, faster updates (no driver porting after Google releases a new build, since they do it themselves for the Nexus line), etc. That's the last thing Amazon wants obviously.
It's the same way installing CM (or another AOSP ROM) does away with things like Sense or TouchWiz, in their entirety. If you're able to install CM at all it's because you're able to wipe out whatever's in place (tho there's been dual boot solutions for some devices like the original Nook), because either Amazon gave users a way into the bootloader or people figured it out on their own. Things are substantially more locked down by default than with a PC so it's always tricky at first.
Frankly the ads on the lock screen wouldn't bother me much, on my phone it'd be anathema, my phone's lock screen serves much more useful purposes (music controls, texts/calendar preview, etc); but I can't remember the last time I spent more than a second on my tablet 's lock screen. Ads would be far from one of the first reasons to discard the stock build IMO.
If anything I'd switch to CM for any number of Play store apps not available on Amazon's market, along with the excellent native Gmail/Calendar apps that Amazon discards, not to mention Chrome (tab sync with other devices is huge IMO). Those are the things I was alluding to earlier...
That makes the comparison to other devices a lot more black and white tho... Extra storage, HDMI, better Wifi vs better raw performance, NFC, GPS, gyroscope, faster updates (no driver porting after Google releases a new build, since they do it themselves for the Nexus line), etc. That's the last thing Amazon wants obviously.
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Erasmus354
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Yes you did, you said they forked the OS before ICS, which isn't true. They took ICS and then put a skin on top of it.
No, I didn't.
That wasn't what I meant and that's not how the term is usually understood, no offense; they run a forked OS period, pre or post ICS. The OS the Fire runs isn't Android plus a few specialty Amazon apps, it isn't a somewhat modified (or skinned) version of Android like most manufacturers ship (e.g. Sense, TouchWiz, etc.), it's a forked version of Android, period.
They literally throw out a lot of the basic elements and apps that are part of AOSP (Android Open Source Project) in favor of whatever they've developed atop it, and in turn they don't get access to Google services because of it (Google's native Android apps for all their services like Gmail, Calendar, Google Now, Google Voice, the Play store, etc.). When a new version of Android comes out, Amazon has to go back to their developers and re-implement everything they've built atop Android, that's the very definition of a forked OS.
The fact that they did it (rebulding) in order to have an ICS base doesn't change that. It's also unlikely they'll ever update any Fire device to a new Android version, because they really don't need to unless it's to implement new hardware (all their services run on a different software layer). I'm not sure that lot of the people in this thread or people interested in the Fire really understand this.
As far as a user is concerned the Fire runs Android in name only, you never ever see anything even remotely associated with Android while using it. It's exactly like a kiosk or advertising machine that runs Windows embedded but you never see it... (well except that Android is open source and free for Amazon to use in this way) Amazon also doesn't contribute anything back to the open source code base.
TL;DR: The Fire, all of them, run a forked OS and always have. The fact that the base was updated to ICS (for a new device) doesn't change that at all. The Fires run Android for hardware compatibility basically, everything user-facing is entirely Amazon's own development tho (or third party apps).
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GoldenTiger
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Wrong. The Fire's OS is just a skin on top of normal Android. Your backpedaling doesn't make any more sense than your original comments.
If it was merely a skin you wouldn't lose every single app that's part of AOSP (everything from the calculator and mail program to the browser), though that half is Amazon's call, but because it's not a mere skin you also lose native access to all Google services as I alluded to before (that half is Google's call).
Can you please explain how any of that is inaccurate or how I've backpedaled? When you pick up a Fire, not a single button or screen layout works the same as Android, not a single stock app (whether AOSP or from Google's services) is present. That's way more than a mere skin, unless your definition of a skin is very different than mine.
Edit: To clarify before some clueless soul gets confused, I'm not saying you can't use Gmail on a Fire (or Google Calendar etc)... But you'll have to do so using a third party email client or Amazon's own, rather than the native client most other Android devices enjoy. Some other services won't work at all because you just have no way to interface with them (Google Voice, Now, Nav, etc.).
I'm not damning the Fire over any of this either, just saying, it's not useful for a substantial subset of things that other tablets CAN do. (unless you root it and flash something completely different from the existing OS, like CM or AOKP)
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You don't get a lot of the Google apps/services because they aren't free and open:
http://source.android.com/faqs.html#how-can-i-get-access-to-the-google-apps-for-android-such-as-maps
The Google apps for Android, such as YouTube, Google Maps and Navigation, Gmail, and so on are Google properties that are not part of Android, and are licensed separately. Contact android-partnerships at google.com for inquiries related to those apps.
So you are just saying it's not useful like other tablet??
You really seem to be spending a lot of time and effort, just to put down these tablets.
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Exactly, and Google decides who they license them to. You lose the rest of the stuff because it's Amazon's call to use a different browser and, well, a different everything. Pretty much every tech site out there describes the Fire's OS in the same way btw (forked version of Android), I'm not sure why it's such a shock to some of you... You guys are clearly not tech noobs, maybe just not very familiar with Android and/or the Fire?
http://www.androidcentral.com/amazon-kindle-fire-hd-vs-ipad-vs-nexus-7-vs-surface-rt-vs-playbook
http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/9/5...n-phone-confirmed-could-be-announced-tomorrow
Not saying everything tech journalist (or bloggers) state is accurate, heh, God knows they parrot forward a lot of inaccurate crap... But the term in question is completely fitting.
http://www.androidcentral.com/amazon-kindle-fire-hd-vs-ipad-vs-nexus-7-vs-surface-rt-vs-playbook
http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/9/5...n-phone-confirmed-could-be-announced-tomorrow
Not saying everything tech journalist (or bloggers) state is accurate, heh, God knows they parrot forward a lot of inaccurate crap... But the term in question is completely fitting.
GoldenTiger
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Just because it doesn't come with some pre-installed apps and has a different launcher skin, you think it's a different OS? Wow.
It's NOT just a different launcher, there's few things even remotely recognizable as Android anywhere (outside of a notification shade and nav buttons, and even the latter behave differently and aren't always on screen), you wouldn't know it's running Android were it not for Amazon's app store (which only sells Android apps). The entire UI is different, it breaks away from many things that people identify with Android...
You guys act like forked is a dirty word and I'm speaking foul of your mothers... I don't have anything against the Fire, even tho I do think Amazon is just treading water with the whole concept (eventually the Nexus' pricing will be the norm for Android tablets rather than the exception, unless Windows RT fails and then we all lose). As it is now though they're very aggressively priced tablets that a lot of people would be happy with.
Heck I'd probably be happy with a Fire... I probably spend 60% of my time with my current tablet inside the browser, and another 15% reading email; sure I'd miss native Gmail or Firefox/Chrome tab sync on the Fire but I can live without it, easily (and Firefox might show up on their app market). However, the geek in me would miss the other 15-25% of things that I already do with my Android tablet, and the practical guy in me knows that it'll be a lot less hassle to live with the Nexus if I do decide to tinker with either.
If you take a Windows PC and you delete every program under accessories, replace the desktop with something else (let's say, Chrome, with shortcuts to Chrome apps and maybe iTunes), eliminate the start menu, and hide the control panel and every other recognizable portion of the OS, but you leave behind the notification tray and right clicking, would you still consider using that system the same as using a full fledged Windows PC?
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GoldenTiger
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Aesthetics don't mean anything other than the presentation of the software's functionality. You are implying that it isn't android, when it absolutely is. Just trying to keep misconceptions at bay.
I'm trying to do the same thing, and never implied it wasn't Android, I'm not sure how you get that from me saying it's a forked version of Android. Beneath the hood it's certainly Android, and Amazon's app store was a huge coup (in making this kind of device and software strategy marketable for them), but the experience is pretty removed from Android.
They did a terrific job with the app store tho, most if not all the must have third party apps are in there (your Netflix, Skype, etc.). New apps and app updates sometimes take longer to show up than on Google's Play store but Amazon does try to make it a more secure environment too.
GoldenTiger
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Sorry I guess I misunderstood you. Yeah, it is a forked version, you're right.
Erasmus354
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It absolutely is not a forked version. It is a skinned and locked down version of Android. None of the underlying OS has changed. If you bought a Windows 7 tablet that had a proprietary touch UI added and Internet Explored removed you wouldn't call it a fork.
Regardless, you said the Fire HD/Fire 2 was running a version of Android that was forked BEFORE 4.0. That is demonstrably false in any possible definition. You have now spent half a page trying to backpedal and obfuscate your comedy of errors in misrepresenting the new Fire tablets.
Don't get me wrong, I am not some Amazon fanboy. In fact I prefer stock unlocked Nexus devices. I don't however tolerate blatant misinformation.
Regardless, you said the Fire HD/Fire 2 was running a version of Android that was forked BEFORE 4.0. That is demonstrably false in any possible definition. You have now spent half a page trying to backpedal and obfuscate your comedy of errors in misrepresenting the new Fire tablets.
Don't get me wrong, I am not some Amazon fanboy. In fact I prefer stock unlocked Nexus devices. I don't however tolerate blatant misinformation.
GoldenTiger
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Yeah, the UI is forked or more appropriately called, skinned.... but android is underneath. I think it is more a confusion on the terminologies here rather than the ideas.
You clearly don't understand how the term is used in common development parlance (and all over the web when characterizing the Fire tablet OS), I tried to explain it but you seem more interested in me than in any of the facts, so I'll leave it at that.
So I bought the Nexus 7 yesterday. The thing is awesome expect for 2 problems.
1. It is taking forever to charge. Had it plugged in with the Asus Wall Charger and Cable that came with it for 8 hours overnight and it went from 0% to 25%.
2. I haven't been keep on top of things, but I guess that Adobe has ditched Flash support on Android devices running 4.0 and up. Effectively neutering the tablets web surfing capabilities. There is a work around to install flash.
I mostly bought this thing for reading and to track fantasy football for the time being. However not being able to get the damn thing to a 100% charge before 1PM today makes it pretty useless for my upcoming football party.
I will continue to use it, I can return it within 30 days. That will give the Kindle Fire HD a couple of weeks to bake after release be I decide to ditch the Nexus 7 because of its issues.
1. It is taking forever to charge. Had it plugged in with the Asus Wall Charger and Cable that came with it for 8 hours overnight and it went from 0% to 25%.
2. I haven't been keep on top of things, but I guess that Adobe has ditched Flash support on Android devices running 4.0 and up. Effectively neutering the tablets web surfing capabilities. There is a work around to install flash.
I mostly bought this thing for reading and to track fantasy football for the time being. However not being able to get the damn thing to a 100% charge before 1PM today makes it pretty useless for my upcoming football party.
I will continue to use it, I can return it within 30 days. That will give the Kindle Fire HD a couple of weeks to bake after release be I decide to ditch the Nexus 7 because of its issues.
If it's taking that long to charge, then something is very wrong -- probably a bad charger or cable. Exchange it or put in for an RMA.
And nothing of value was lost.
Flash was dumped for Android 4.1 onward, but eventually removed from the market altogether (unless you already had it installed). It's very trivial to re install it right now, just check the setting that allows you to install non market apps, find the apk, install it. I believe you have to use Firefox or some other browser tho as Chrome won't run it (what used to be the stock browser before Chrome would, but I think the Nexus and other newer devices ship with Chrome as stock).
It definitely shouldn't take that long to charge... It almost sounds like it's charging at the rate that it would off a lower amp USB port or phone charger.
It definitely shouldn't take that long to charge... It almost sounds like it's charging at the rate that it would off a lower amp USB port or phone charger.
Trying to make this decision as well. I had a Kindle Fire for about a week previously, but hated it's browser. I purchased a few books off amazon when I had it that I would like to get back, but I think I could do that with either one. The only reason I got rid of it was I hated the browser.
Which one is right for me? I mostly want it for internet, netflix, books, movies ( I have a vast library of ripped movies/BR's, ) and quick lookups while traveling. I will most likely have my laptop up while in the hotels/motels. I am not much of a gamer and will probably not be on this device either.
The Kindle has waay better screen resolution which would probably help with the movies, but since a lot of them are HD rips, I wonder if it will studder any (I am very sensitive to this type of stuff.)
The Nexus has the tegra 3, which I cant help but think will help with that, but the screen resolution is lower than a lot of my movie rips.
Price isn't a huge factor for me, but I want my moneys worth.
Which one is right for me? I mostly want it for internet, netflix, books, movies ( I have a vast library of ripped movies/BR's, ) and quick lookups while traveling. I will most likely have my laptop up while in the hotels/motels. I am not much of a gamer and will probably not be on this device either.
The Kindle has waay better screen resolution which would probably help with the movies, but since a lot of them are HD rips, I wonder if it will studder any (I am very sensitive to this type of stuff.)
The Nexus has the tegra 3, which I cant help but think will help with that, but the screen resolution is lower than a lot of my movie rips.
Price isn't a huge factor for me, but I want my moneys worth.
they have the same screen resolution both 7 inch devices. I own the Nexus7 and it is awesome worth every penny and is still the benchmark in 7 inch tablets! it never lags the tegra 3 is a beast. and the ability to use both app stores is a plus.
I just pre-ordered a Kindle Fire HD 7" for the wife's birthday. She is going to use it mostly for reading books, but wants the option of browsing the web and playing games. Just seemed like the obvious choice for me since Amazon owns the book market.
yeah cuz the kindle book app doesn't work on every android device
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/09/amazon-kindle-fire-versus-google-asus-nexus-7/
kevinsbane
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yeah cuz the kindle book app doesn't work on every android device
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/09/amazon-kindle-fire-versus-google-asus-nexus-7/
You can't buy a book from the Kindle app. Yes, you can go through the webstore, but it just works better on a Kindle. I mean, touchscreen/e-ink aside, bookreading is better on a kindle reader because of how easy it is to navigate and get books, reviews and suggested reads, all without having to go out from the app.
WhenKittensATK
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Here is my breakdown:
Kindle Fire HD is setup for media playback more-so than Nexus 7.
Reason: Dual stereo speakers and Dolby Digital Plus. Kindle Fire gen 1 and Nexus 7 have mono speakers only on one side of the device. I watch a lot of media on my Kindle Fire gen 1, but hate having to use earphones or cupping my hand on the side of the speakers to bounce it towards me.
Nexus 7 has better hardware than KF HD 7" model. KF HD 8.9" model has better hardware than Nexus 7.
Nexus 7 has official Google support. Kindle Fire HD has Amazon, but I'm sure someone will come up with a way to root it so you can get any ROM and Google Play. I have no clue why a lot of people bash Kindle Fire for that, when most informed users will just root it and install something like CM. I got CM10 running on my Kindle Fire gen 1
Game wise, meh. No Tegra 3 games interest me. If M$ Surface can play UE3 game ports smoothly I'd be more interested in that for portable gaming than either tablets.
CNET's review showed some lag or unresponsiveness on the Kindle Fire HD 7", so that may be judged on your tolerance level. I personally wouldn't be bothered by it so much, since it doesn't do that for everything.
Kindle Fire HD is setup for media playback more-so than Nexus 7.
Reason: Dual stereo speakers and Dolby Digital Plus. Kindle Fire gen 1 and Nexus 7 have mono speakers only on one side of the device. I watch a lot of media on my Kindle Fire gen 1, but hate having to use earphones or cupping my hand on the side of the speakers to bounce it towards me.
Nexus 7 has better hardware than KF HD 7" model. KF HD 8.9" model has better hardware than Nexus 7.
Nexus 7 has official Google support. Kindle Fire HD has Amazon, but I'm sure someone will come up with a way to root it so you can get any ROM and Google Play. I have no clue why a lot of people bash Kindle Fire for that, when most informed users will just root it and install something like CM. I got CM10 running on my Kindle Fire gen 1
Game wise, meh. No Tegra 3 games interest me. If M$ Surface can play UE3 game ports smoothly I'd be more interested in that for portable gaming than either tablets.
CNET's review showed some lag or unresponsiveness on the Kindle Fire HD 7", so that may be judged on your tolerance level. I personally wouldn't be bothered by it so much, since it doesn't do that for everything.
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I maintain that if you don't have Prime, the Fire loses a lot of appeal. The whole point of the Fire (as per Bezos) is to be a gateway to Amazon content and encourage you to buy more from them. It's full of ads bombarding you on every screen.
Honestly I wish Asus would sell the tablet that became the Nexus 7 and which they demo'd way back in Jan/Feb. At that point it I think still had a microsd slot which Google obviously removed.
There's also good chance that a Nexus 10 will come out this holiday season at the same price point as the Fire HD ($300). That will be the table to get for many.
Honestly I wish Asus would sell the tablet that became the Nexus 7 and which they demo'd way back in Jan/Feb. At that point it I think still had a microsd slot which Google obviously removed.
There's also good chance that a Nexus 10 will come out this holiday season at the same price point as the Fire HD ($300). That will be the table to get for many.
The larger Kindle Fire has a better resolution, but the 7" Fire HD is the same res as the Nexus 7... Honestly at those sizes I doubt you'd notice a difference between any of them, particularly for movie watching. PPI ends up being similar (216 for the 7" tablets, 264 for the 8.9" Fire), if anything it'd make more of a difference for reading or gaming.
For your use I'd say either one would work fine tbh, they both have Netflix and both can read Amazon books thru their app... Tegra 3 and some of the video players available in the Play store might indeed help with playing high bitrate rips (I haven't checked whether stuff like MX Player or VLC are in Amazon's store), but even then some stuff might stutter depending on your rip parameters.
I agree about Prime, but I think for some people the choice would still be a tossup even with a 10" $300 Nexus. I'm doubtful it'd be 1080p altho there's currently more 1080p tablets at 10" than 8.9" so maybe supply economics are in their favor as production of those panels ramps up. I think it's more likely we'd see it next year tho.
I really want a Nexus 7 with more features tho, I'd easily pay up to $100 more if it included expandable storage, HDMI out, and maybe pogo pins for accessories... It'd be a lesser value at that point tho (harder to market). I'd gladly take an 8.9" $300 model tho, just source Amazon's panel.
I really don't understand the artificial division the market created between 7" tablets and 10" tablets, the former are absolutely not $300 cheaper to manufacture yet that's what their average price points would have you believe.Amazon played a huge role in cost cutting and making others see they could sell more at lower margins with the original Fire (would we have a $200 Nexus 7 if it hadn't come out? who knows...). Hopefully the 8.9" model does a bit of the same... I'm not particularly interested in the current Fires (even with CM, not replacing one dual core A9 tablet with another, yuck) but I'm thankful they're out there.
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GoldenTiger
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Kindle Fire hd has 16gb instead of 8gb at same price point. I can side load the very few apps not available of worth on the Amazon market, and actually like the interface well enough. Add in the superior sound and wifi and the deal was sealed for me. Gaming will be virtually identical, I had a Nexus 7 I sold for a profit after using it a bit, and games ran the same as on my Galaxy S3: awesomely.
Mine is now on shipping soon status, probably ship tonight and get tomorrow or Friday!
Mine is now on shipping soon status, probably ship tonight and get tomorrow or Friday!
Most Android games are built for the lowest common denominator, outside of Tegra optimized games (which is a joke because NV's GPU have been the weakest at times). So yeah, i doubt anyone would notice a difference in the short term (two years out you'd probably replace it anyway). Some games just won't be available on Amazon's app store tho, they've ruffled some dev feathers with how free app of the day promos are handled too.
GoldenTiger
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The feathers were ruffled by ignorance. They should have read the simple terms first, or opted not to sign the contract to go in on the free deal, which is NOT required by amazon for app store listings. I assume you're talking about the fools who thought they sold $50k and didn't remember their app was free that day?
There's been more than one incident. Apparatus dev stopped updating his app oversomething having to do with the FAotD too I think. I agree it's dumb regardless, it's a lot of exposure and the people getting it for free may never have bought it anyway but they might now get a friend or two to buy it... Was just putting it out there. I praised the way Amazon built up their market earlier, overall they've done a ton of things right with it.
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GoldenTiger
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Ah, didn't know it was more than one. I was directing my comments at those devs, not you, just to clarify .
.Have you seen or played any of the tegra 3 games? They are really amazing looking compared to any other games in the app stores.
GoldenTiger
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The ones I tried didn't look appreciably different from any other good 3d titles on the market for android.... There are a lot of good lookers on Android without Tegra requirements.
My requirements for a tablet were media content, web surfing and reading books. I have laptops and computers for everything else. Made my choice pretty easy as I'm already a prime member. Maybe I'm a tech idiot but I preordered a 8.9'' Fire HD. And even if it was a bad choice it made my wife really excited and made her forget two things she was mad at me for. Hell that's worth nearly $300 as is.
No way is this a bad choice....it may not be the best one, but so what? Sounds like it will meet your needs.
I'm still not 100% sure what the benefit of the Fire HD is to me as a prime member and an iPad owner. I can get any of their videos on my iPad already. Kindle, Audible, shopping, check, check, check. I do, however, want an HD Android tab, but I don't want either the Transformer 700 or the Acer. Kindle is the only other choice.
When is Samsung going to offer up an HD tablet?
ultraman7k
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just out of curosity, since I really have no idea, but is the google store not accessible from kindle?