FW900 killer? Panasonic plasma monitor 42PF50U

[Morkai]

I've been very close to ordering a 42BT300 for some time now, i've looked at the larger versions with the same panel and they look amazing.

I was a bit put off by the review with 30ms input lag, but i found this in the manual:

"EXTERNAL SCALER MODE
OFF
ON
This menu can be used to specify whether the built-in scaler or an external scaler is used for scaler functions such as
resizing and picture quality adjustment. "

I assume this probably disables all processing and might put it near 0 input lag? Any clue if this will work when connected to a computer? (i assume so?)

 

[Chad_Thunder]

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[Chad_Thunder]

...

 

[Morkai]

The 42BT300 manual did have a clarification of the modes listed: it simply had the most common modes by default, but more can be added to a maximum refresh of 120hz, as far as i understand.
I bought one, so 'ill get back with more info when it arrives (no delivery estimate), the scaler off mode and this makes me pretty sure it'll work out perfectly.

• With regard to the typical PC input signals that are described in the applicable input signals list (see page 72), adjustment
values such as for the standard picture positions and sizes have already been stored in this unit. You can add up to eight PC input signal types that are not included in the list.
• Computer signals which can be input are those with a horizontal scanning frequency of 15 to 110 kHz and vertical scanning frequency of 48 to 120 Hz. (However, the image will not be displayed properly if the signals exceed 1,200 lines.)

Also, it seems that there is a standard measurement for motion blur in displays, would be nice if this was included in all serious reviews; stating the effective resolution at a certain speed of movement is an excellent metric.

The Full-HD moving picture resolution speed index is 1,200 pps*2 (1,080 lines of moving picture resolution*3). This treats viewers to steady, blur-free, fast-moving images such as sports scenes and action films.


*1: Comparing previous models (the PF20 Series) in the same-size.
*2: This is a new motion-image performance index that was announced by the Advanced PDP Display Development Center Corporation (APDC) on January 27, 2011, as an advanced version of the conventional moving-picture resolution index. It expresses the ability to display motion images in Full-HD resolution based on the speed at which an image moves (the number of pixels that move per second).
*3: According to the method for measuring moving-picture resolution to indicate motion-image display performance that was developed by the Advanced PDP Development Center Corporation (APDC). With Moving Picture Resolution turned ON.

 

[Mark Rejhon]

The Full-HD moving picture resolution speed index is 1,200 pps*2 (1,080 lines of moving picture resolution*3). This treats viewers to steady, blur-free, fast-moving images such as sports scenes and action films.

Blur Busters really dislikes "lines of motion resolution". It's not a future-proof motion resolution measurement standard.

It's better to measure as "milliseconds of motion resolution"

1. It's resolution independent.
2. It's motion speed independent. (most displays have the same MPRT at all motion speeds and motion vectors)
3. It's more test pattern independent.
4. It's future proof. 1080p, 4K, 8K, VR, etc.
5. Improvement is unbounded. It doesn't cap out at a specific value (e.g. 1080 lines of motion resolution)
6. It easily covers the faster motion speeds often seen in video game use, an increasing use case of displays.

This is different rating from LCD response time, since MPRT is the true motion resolution including sample-and-hold effect (non-strobed "1ms" and "2ms" LCD's typically have "16.7ms" MPRT at 60Hz). The actual full scientific name of "milliseconds of motion resolution" is actually "Moving Picture Response Time" (MPRT), but very few reviewer sites use this standard. Here, for scientifically perfect sample-and-hold displays (transitions are clean, all vectors of motion are equal), 1 millisecond of motion blur equals 1 pixel of motion blur for every 1000 pixels/second motion. This is easy to compare between displays, and the formula is easy to calculate -- e.g. 8ms MPRT creates 4 pixels of motion blur at 500 pixels/second. Also 1000 / MPRT creates a motion equivalence ratio for framerate=Hz motion -- e.g. a scientifically perfect 200fps@200Hz sample-and-hold display would have a 5ms of motion blur (1000 / 5 = 200)

Most most blu-ray motion tests (which are often 720p or 1080i) cap out at speeds that are not representative of video gaming and computer use cases. LightBoost displays, for example, actually extrapolate to over 4,800 lines of motion picture resolution at LightBoost=10% -- but no test patterns can fit that on the screen, not even a 4K screen. So we see the flaw with the "lines of motion resolution" measurement because it artifically caps out far below the limits of human perception. It's very video/movie oriented, and doesn't provide an ability for unbounded improvement in motion resolution. Often many of these test pattern move at only a few pixels per frame. Games such as first person shooters can move at dozens of pixels per frame, during a fast-flick 180 turn or a very high-speed strafe. The minimum motion speed for testing motion resolution, for computer/gaming use cases, should be 960 pixels/sec (16 pixels per frame at 60Hz). Even so, it's still somewhat subjective (e.g. phosphor decay, subfields, temporal dithering, PWM dimming, etc, can all interfere with the perceived blur), but contrast ratios have a similar subjectivity problem in standardized accurate measurements mapping to human perception (e.g. ambient light can lower apparent contrast ratios, ANSI contrast ratios returns different numbers than ON/OFF contrast ratios, etc)

Some people here may be familiar with the graph I created for 60 vs 120 vs LightBoost, which I chose to measure via the "milliseconds-of-motion-blur" (MPRT) than "lines-of-motion-resolution". Also, I have a large AVSFORUM thread about the archaic "lines of motion resolution" terminology.

 

[Chad_Thunder]

...

 

[Morkai]

Sad news everyone, I talked to someone at panasonic with insight in this after having my order on hold for 2 weeks, and the 42BT300 and 50BT300 are no longer being produced due to lack of some part (at least in the cze factory, which i assume makes the EU model - maybe its not true for the asia/us versions).

They couldn't say for sure, but it was stated that most likely no more would be produced, and there would most likely be no followup plasma model. (i guess they are going for too-slow-to-be-usable 4k LCD displays, and OLED which we all know wont be ready for a bunch of years yet - let's hope we are wrong..).

If anyone happens to know a retailer with international shipping and a 42BT300 in stock (new, refurb, whatever) please send me a pm?

 

[cesarioFL71]

I just picked up 3 of the 60in version of this monitor from an estate sale. They have a Dec 2013 and 2x Jan 2014 manufacture dates and are in mint condition! The models are Panasonic TH-60PF50U. I can confirm that they can't do 1920x1080@120hz but they will do 1365x768@100hz and 1280x720@120hz. Excellent 1:1 pixel mode makes these monitors very versatile. 1280x720@120hz is crystal clear due to the excellent scaler. Currently running mine at 1920x822@60hz for some 45in diagonal ultrawide action. Here are some 32:9, 21:9 and 16:9 AR shots. I know it's an old thread but thought I'd update for posterity's sake.

 

[cesarioFL71]

3X TH-60PF50U

 

[Xar]

Chief Blur Buster What do you think looking back analysing these stuff?

 

[jbltecnicspro]

How’s motion clarity at 120hz? I would think it wouldn’t be great because the sub pixel refresh would be lower. If these still refresh at 600hz, then it’s 5 refreshes per frame (at 120hz) instead of 10 per frame at 60hz. But maybe I’m wrong.

 

[cesarioFL71]

How’s motion clarity at 120hz? I would think it wouldn’t be great because the sub pixel refresh would be lower. If these still refresh at 600hz, then it’s 5 refreshes per frame (at 120hz) instead of 10 per frame at 60hz. But maybe I’m wrong.

Yes, at 120hz the tiny amount of input lag present at 60hz is eliminated and mouse movement is on the level of a crt IMO, but there is more motion blur present that rears it's head during the BB UFO test. I'm sure there is still input lag present were I to actually measure it, but when switching back and forth between this unit and a Sony 21in crt I can't tell the difference.

 

[cesarioFL71]

The OP was correct in his assumption that this unit in it's smaller 42in form was a potential "FW900 killer" for the time it was introduced. I've got a mint condition 60in version sitting on my desk and for "gaming" I'd take this over a NIB FW900. In 2013 had I known about these units a 42in would have been my daily driver without question.

 

[Chief Blur Buster]

Chief Blur Buster What do you think looking back analysing these stuff?

Plasma displays had their day, but with a theoretical 600Hz OLED, I could software-simulate those subfields. Though HDR subpixels may not pulse as brightly as plasma phosphor, the feel would be similar. It would be theoretically possible to duplicate the subfield in an emulation. However, I think CRT beam simulator algorithms would be superior, though.

I already have a TestUFO DLP Colorwheel simulator and a TestUFO CRT Interlacing simulator, and I'll probably look for ways to simulate subfields for a 500Hz+ gaming monitor using a temporal error diffusion dithering algorithm in a GPU shader. But even superior is probably simply a CRT electron beam simulator + brute Hz HDR OLED.

Future HDR + Hz displays will be able to do quite a lot of rather neat things, in the discipline of improved retro display emulation.

P.S. TestUFO 2.0 HDR is being launched this month.

EDIT: I'm actually hired to do actual work on retro-display emulation disciplines too! The Retrotink 4K is a Blur Busters Approved external video scaler box that can inject BFI and CRT filters into a video signal. I helped them with custom BFI, and while it was designed for 4K60, it also supports 1440p120, 1080p240 and 720p360. Box-in-middle BFI can outperform OLED TV firmware BFI (in some ways), because it's lower latency BFI and uses the HDR-boost feature for SDR retro consoles. It can do everything TestUFO Variable Persistence BFI For 240Hz Monitors do.

 

[cesarioFL71]

These quotes from Mark Rejhon of Blur Busters match up with my experiences with the TH-60PF50U exactly. Granted, he's a proponent of OLED now, and rightly so, these quotes demonstrate that the TH-60PF50U and it's siblings of the 2012-2013 professional monitor stack were the real alternatives to crt at the time.

" Another possible strobe backlight option is Sony's Motionflow "Impulse" strobe backlight, which flickers like a 60Hz CRT and eliminates three-quarters of motion blur in a lower-lag manner without using interpolation. Another option is a Panasonic NeoPlasma panel, which has CRT-like motion clarity (ultra-low-persistence phosphor). If your budgets are big, and ultralow-motion-blur gaming is your thing, test these out at the stores -- Especially fast panning motion such as www.testufo.com/#test=photo ...

The CRT-like / LightBoost-like video gaming abilities (with less color compromises) of these displays are rather impressive.

-- Sony Motionflow "Impulse" (low-lag interpolation-free, unlike other motionflow modes)
HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)

-- Panasonic NeoPlasma panels; ultra-low-persistence plasmas
42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U


If you're looking for the ultimate Game Mode with CRT-like quality (reasonably low-lag while still having the CRT effect), and can't find hard-to-find discontinued Kuro's, then these are your best bet. "


https://hardforum.com/threads/best-current-lightboost-monitor.1779419/


In my experience these are the only plasmas that truly offer themselves as a crt replacement. The other excellent consumer plasma tv's of the time are not in the same league as far as pc gaming performance. Don't make the mistake of buying anything before, after or outside of these specific units; 42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U. Any pro plasma unit prior to 2012 and not of the Neo Plasma line will not deliver the performance a PC gamer needs and wants. The pro units prior to 2012 lack the super fast phosphors that deliver the "crt like" motion clarity. Likewise, no consumer model like the vaunted Kuro or Panasonic ST60, ZT60 or other Neo Plasma based models will do. They are not monitors and have too much input lag.

 

[Chief Blur Buster]

I remember those lovely Kuro's.

The upcoming 480 Hz OLEDs will finally produce quite some interesting advanced-rolling-BFI possibilities. I have an offline prototype of a TestUFO CRT realtime electron beam simulator (using per-scanline-brightness lookup tables, rather than realtime shader calculations), but it is waiting for 360Hz+ OLEDs to commercialize before I launch that additional retro display emulation TestUFO.

Since it's a shingled-overlapped rolling software BFI, there's challenges erasing the artifacts of having too few digital refresh cycles per analog Hz (more ideal: 16 digital refresh cycles per emulated analog refresh cycle -- so you need a 1000Hz OLED to much more accurately simulate a CRT electron beam to most human vision error margins).

Yep...
..."Too few digital refresh cycles yet per analog CRT refresh cycle".

So, yeah, we need 240Hz+, preferably 360Hz-480Hz+ OLEDs, for CRT electron beam simulators to begin looking really good (advanced phosphor fadebehind software-based rolling BFI that shingle overlaps adjacent refresh cycles).

Also, resulting persistence motion blur can't be less than destination refreshtime with software-based impulsing algorithms of any kind appled to a sample and hold display -- so 480Hz = can't phosphor fade faster than ~2ms to 90% dark.

More Hz the merrier for proper software-based retro display simulators. 1000Hz OLED will be the cat's beans for unlocking a hella lot of retro display simulators, whether you want simulated plasma/DLP style subfields, or simulated CRT electron beams, etc.

Biggest challenge is gamma-correcting the phosphor fadebehind overlaps between adjacent refresh cycles, and also fuzzing the adjacent-refresh-cycle seams, to prevent tearing artifacts, but it's all possible to math/algorithm all that out for contemporary retrogaming scrolling speeds. Remember, two consecutive refresh cycles of RGB(127,127,127) is not the same number of photons as one refresh cycle of RGB(254,254,254), because of the gamma correction curve, and you need to keep an average number of photons constant per simulated CRT dot for a specific brightness, and having to use low-granularity rolling BFI creates artifacts like tearing / horizontal bands, unless you properly algorithm it all out. And of course, phosphor fade curve simulation accuracy requires really brute Hz to update the phosphor fade at extremely fine intervals.

Although CRT electron beam spot can surge 10,000 to 30,000 nits. So we have to utilize workarounds such as a slightly longer sustain combined with HDR nitboost (~2000 nits ish in tomorrow's OLEDs) and tight rolling windows (16 digital refresh cycle per CRT analog Hz, allows HDR window sizes of under 10% of pixels of the display needing to be extremely bright). The key is "we only need performance within human vision error margins", so we can have a bit of flexibility here (but not much if only 480Hz instead of 1000Hz). Also, the allowance for shingle overlaps between adjacent refresh cycles, combined with phosphor fade simulation, means I can only access roughly half that nitboost budget, if I want something looking very accurate.

Big rabbit hole of quantization type artifacts trying to use <1000Hz to try to simulate CRT beam, so I haven't released the beam simulator software, but the artifacts fall off quite fast with 480Hz+ OLED.

Regardless...

It's nice to see some simpler versions of my advanced BFI (more adjustable than typical 50%:50% BFI) algorithms already hit production products and actually be liked by users; but the Holy Grails are still tantalizingly out of reach. The neat thing is that we're within the decade window.

Digital Foundry's John the person who fawned over Sony FW900, tweeted accolades about my BFI algorithm in Retrotink 4K.
(He tweeted before Blur Busters' involvement was actually announced)

https://twitter.com/dark1x/status/1686843392917954560

Although LG CX can have lower persistence (sub-refresh persistence), Mike and I achieved lower BFI latency than LG firmware BFI as BFI is currently done the absolute fastest the laws of physics will do for BFI injection, as per math formula [input refreshtime minus output refreshtime].

And box-in-middle BFI was brighter than firmware BFI, because of SDR->HDR conversion and nit-boosting the HDR signal to compensate for the BFI dimming; allowing 50% BFI to be as bright (or slightly brighter than) as non-BFI, and 180-240Hz BFI to stay acceptably bright (2 or 3 black frame per 1 visible).

We have less BFI lag than TV firmware BFI, because of a clever partial-buffering trick. So for 60Hz input, 120Hz output, half a 60Hz refresh cycle is buffered before beginning to output the visible frame at 120Hz, so the signal scanouts "meets" at the bottom of input / bottom of output. (You can't output ahead of input, so has to do minimum possible buffering of slowscan before outputting fastscan, timed strategically that the rasters 'meet' at bottom of both input/output refresh cycles, since you're trying to process input before outputting). LG firmware BFI buffers the whole refresh cycle (at least), while Retrotink only partially buffers, much like a tank accepting 1x water flow, and then outputting at 2x water flow once the tank is half full. The 1x refresh cycle finishes flowing just on time for the 2x refresh cycle finishes flowing -- if you visualize this way, then you understand the minimum buffering required for box-in-middle monolithic non-rolling-BFI injection.

So only half a 60Hz refresh cycle latency is added, when Retrotink injects BFI to a video signal. You can even add 240Hz BFI to a S-Video/Composite/Component/VGA signal too (output as HDMI to a 240Hz display). The 'Tink was also tested up to 360Hz (at 720p), so there's no refresh rate limitation.

My prediction is I will help a box vendor add a CRT electron beam simulator to an external box, before a display manufacturer integrates electron beam simulators into display firmware.

One bonus, beam simulators are beamraceable (to the end of phosphor fade), so it's theoretically possible to have just 1 to 3 destination refresh cycles latency over original machine latnecy. A 60Hz console connected to a box that does CRT beam simulation, can in theory output simulated frameslices of CRT beam simulation, long before the 60Hz console has finished slowscanning to the bottom of a 60Hz refresh cycle, so possibly as little as 2/1000sec or 3/1000sec latency on a 1000Hz OLED, for adding beam simulation -- still subrefresh latency.

Anyway, I'm only getting started. CRT beam simulators on 480Hz+ OLEDs will be even better and more realistic CRT looks!

 

[jbltecnicspro]

These quotes from Mark Rejhon of Blur Busters match up with my experiences with the TH-60PF50U exactly. Granted, he's a proponent of OLED now, and rightly so, these quotes demonstrate that the TH-60PF50U and it's siblings of the 2012-2013 professional monitor stack were the real alternatives to crt at the time.

" Another possible strobe backlight option is Sony's Motionflow "Impulse" strobe backlight, which flickers like a 60Hz CRT and eliminates three-quarters of motion blur in a lower-lag manner without using interpolation. Another option is a Panasonic NeoPlasma panel, which has CRT-like motion clarity (ultra-low-persistence phosphor). If your budgets are big, and ultralow-motion-blur gaming is your thing, test these out at the stores -- Especially fast panning motion such as www.testufo.com/#test=photo ...

The CRT-like / LightBoost-like video gaming abilities (with less color compromises) of these displays are rather impressive.

-- Sony Motionflow "Impulse" (low-lag interpolation-free, unlike other motionflow modes)
HX920 Series, HX923 Series, HX925 Series, HX929 Series, XBR-55HX950, XBR-65HX950, KDL-47W802A (Budget), KDL-55w802A (Budget), KDL-55W900A, W905A Series, XBR-55X900A (4K Ultra), XBR-65X900A (4K Ultra)

-- Panasonic NeoPlasma panels; ultra-low-persistence plasmas
42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U


If you're looking for the ultimate Game Mode with CRT-like quality (reasonably low-lag while still having the CRT effect), and can't find hard-to-find discontinued Kuro's, then these are your best bet. "


https://hardforum.com/threads/best-current-lightboost-monitor.1779419/


In my experience these are the only plasmas that truly offer themselves as a crt replacement. The other excellent consumer plasma tv's of the time are not in the same league as far as pc gaming performance. Don't make the mistake of buying anything before, after or outside of these specific units; 42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U. Any pro plasma unit prior to 2012 and not of the Neo Plasma line will not deliver the performance a PC gamer needs and wants. The pro units prior to 2012 lack the super fast phosphors that deliver the "crt like" motion clarity. Likewise, no consumer model like the vaunted Kuro or Panasonic ST60, ZT60 or other Neo Plasma based models will do. They are not monitors and have too much input lag.

Well now I want one. I’m sold.

 

[cesarioFL71]

Well now I want one. I’m sold.

My crts haven't been touched since recieving these units. I'm more than likely going to sell all of my crt monitors. The only thing I can even say I might miss is the higher PPI during gaming, but even that is mitigated when using Nvidia DSR resulting in a clean, alias free image. The natural image presented by the plasma also makes 1080p look great; just like it's older cousin the vaunted crt monitor. At this stage the only other monitor I could see myself purchasing is the 42in version of my units, the TH42PF50U if only for the higher ppi. Keep in mind I owned an LG C2 42in oled for a few months and it's been sold. While the oled is a great panel and the future for monitor tech, it just doesn't do it for me as far as image quality. The colors are great and blacks are obviously black, but the image on the plasma appeals to me more. Also, the plasma does shadow detail much better than the oled. I've had the two panels side by side and with similar settings and you can plainly see that shadow detail is much better on the plasma. The way the Neo Plasma handles gradiations from black to grey just impresses me to no end.

 

[Xar]

My crts haven't been touched since recieving these units. I'm more than likely going to sell all of my crt monitors.

I'd keep well preserved functional units in my garage and sell off the rest.

The only thing I can even say I might miss is the higher PPI during gaming, but even that is mitigated when using Nvidia DSR resulting in a clean, alias free image. The natural image presented by the plasma also makes 1080p look great; just like it's older cousin the vaunted crt monitor.

DSR x4.00 with 0% Smoothness looks amazing on any CRT imo. I tried adjusting DLDSR via CRU & SRE many times but never worked with my IBM P260 and Hitachi CM769. Not sure if this issue varies model to model or in general.

 

[cesarioFL71]

I'd keep well preserved functional units in my garage and sell off the rest.

DSR x4.00 with 0% Smoothness looks amazing on any CRT imo. I tried adjusting DLDSR via CRU & SRE many times but never worked with my IBM P260 and Hitachi CM769. Not sure if this issue varies model to model or in generalPerh

I'd keep well preserved functional units in my garage and sell off the rest.

DSR x4.00 with 0% Smoothness looks amazing on any CRT imo. I tried adjusting DLDSR via CRU & SRE many times but never worked with my IBM P260 and Hitachi CM769. Not sure if this issue varies model to model or in general.

Perhaps I may keep them....we'll see. Yes, I use DSR x 4.00 with 0% on my crts and plasma with the same results.

 

[SH1]

I always figured if I had a time machine, and the money, and somehow could have stored them, my plan for this century would have just been to have a stack of FW900s ready to go to get me through.

That said, these plasmas also look intriguing. And would have been worth checking out.

I suspect they would have complemented rather than killed an FW900 though.

Still love this apparent Easter egg Sony left regarding 1080P equivalent pixels:

 

[cesarioFL71]

I always figured if I had a time machine, and the money, and somehow could have stored them, my plan for this century would have just been to have a stack of FW900s ready to go to get me through.

That said, these plasmas also look intriguing. And would have been worth checking out.

I suspect they would have complemented rather than killed an FW900 though.

Still love this apparent Easter egg Sony left regarding 1080P equivalent pixels:

View attachment 620608

In hindsight I'd take my 60in TH60PF50U over a NIB FW900 strictly for gaming; but admittedly it's a matter of taste and priority. If your priority is immersion in the game world then the plasma kicks the FW900's rear, but if you want lower dot pitch and the resulting image quality at the expense of size then it's the FW900. Both units present almost the same image as far as colors, blacks etc; even though I'd give the Neo Plasma the edge with blacks and shadow detail. I owned an FW900 back in 2007 when they were all the rage on these boards due to Mathesar's original thread. So based on my experience with both units it's simply a matter of taste and priorities. That said, give me a NIB or well taken care of TH42pf50u, the actual monitor being referred to as the "FW900 killler" in this thread, with it's tighter dot pitch then it's a done deal. That unit is now my official "grail unit" if only for it's tighter dot pitch relative to the larger 60in versions I currently own.

 

[SH1]

I'd heard of the 42" TV size back in the day, but wasn't up on the monitor model. Hopefully y'all are using screen savers and such. I certainly do with my CRTs and now with this NOS LG CX as well.

(My third type of display is a DLP UST projector, whose main favorable characteristic is the huge picture. And also kind of awesome not having to worry about burn in, but not so much that I'd ever give up my emissive displays.)

 

[cesarioFL71]

FYI, anyone in the FL/GA area who wants to pick up one of these units brand new in box? I'm renting a van and picking up some units on the east coast for under 400.00

I'd heard of the 42" TV size back in the day, but wasn't up on the monitor model. Hopefully y'all are using screen savers and such. I certainly do with my CRTs and now with this NOS LG CX as well.

(My third type of display is a DLP UST projector, whose main favorable characteristic is the huge picture. And also kind of awesome not having to worry about burn in, but not so much that I'd ever give up my emissive displays.)

These units also have a "Nanodrift" function that shifts the image periodically depending on the setting you choose to prevent burn in. Keep in mind that these commercial monitors were designed as signage displays. Preventing burn in is one of the prime criteria for these units. I also use a screensaver as an added precaution. I have three units that were all in the very last batch of displays to come off the assembly line. Dec 2013 and two dated Jan 2014. Production ceased in Jan 2014. None of these units have any sign of burn in.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

FYI, anyone in the FL/GA area who wants to pick up one of these units brand new in box? I'm renting a van and picking up some units on the east coast for under 400.00

These units also have a "Nanodrift" function that shifts the image periodically depending on the setting you choose to prevent burn in. Keep in mind that these commercial monitors were designed as signage displays. Preventing burn in is one of the prime criteria for these units. I also use a screensaver as an added precaution. I have three units that were all in the very last batch of displays to come off the assembly line. Dec 2013 and two dated Jan 2014. Production ceased in Jan 2014. None of these units have any sign of burn in.

Now I really want one. I’m in the Midwest though so I cannot take you up on the offer. Oh well.

 

[cesarioFL71]

Now I really want one. I’m in the Midwest though so I cannot take you up on the offer. Oh well.

Check your inbox.

Also for any interested

This post is meant for the pc gamers who now and in the future will be in the market for a plasma monitor. I am by no means an expert on plasma technology. I have been an enthusiast of crt tech and sought out plasma as a crt replacment for gaming.

Let's start with the Panasonic TH-60PF50U commercial monitor.

1. Excellent response and minimal input lag. Great choice for every pc gamer except the hardcore FPS type
2. Image quality is outstanding and compares favorably to my high end 22 in Trinitrons and Diamondtron. The plasma actually wins here due to being easier on the eyes allowing for longer play sessions and less eye strain. Blacks are slightly better than my trinitron crts and a hair below oled.
3. The phosphors used in the TH-60PF50U are super fast and leave no ghosting or mouse trailing. Much better than any computer crt monitor in this regard. No halo effect either. Performs much better on the ANSI contrast test pattern than any crt.
4. Versatility? Outstanding! Via DVI-D can accept the gamut of resolutions and aspect ratios from 640x480 to 1920x1080. Can run 120hz at 720p. Can display aspect ratios from 4:3 all the way up to 32:9.
5. Size? The larger form factor provides excellent level of immersion over it's smaller crt cousins.
6. Performed great in the Blur Buster UFO test @60 fps. Smooth and clean image during the entire test.

Cons? Heat and power
If you are used to the way crt monitors operate then you'll have no issue with the heat and power used by this unit.
Heavy!!!! 125lbs. There's no way around it. The construction of these commercial monitors is soemthing akin to a tank and it is what it is. That said, these monitors will last many years and perform well up to 100,000 hours.

Panasonic ZT60 Studio Master Panel

1. Excellent image quality with the deepest of blacks. I am a former OLED owner and I can't see much difference between the two. Colors seem to "pop" similar to oled but with a more natural and pleasing look.
2. Size? Slim for a plasma but still weighs about 95lbs due to the glass panel.
3. This is a videophiles wet dream! If you are a consumer of movies and other media then you can't go wrong here.

Cons?
1. Slower response time; even in game mode. It's still a solid panel for the consoles, and even slower paced pc games, but if your primary platform isn't a console I can't recommend it.
2. Can't accept many resolutions and aspect ratios. The panel will reliably give you 1920x1080p at 60hz and 1280x720@120hz, but don't expect to run a bunch of custom resolutions with NVCP or similar proggies.
3. Internet browsing was an unpleasant experience. I'm sure you can create a custom color profile that would allow colors to be less vivid and more subdued, but out of the box colors on any color setting were too vivid and harsh.
4. Performed poorly on the Blur Busters UFO test @60fps. Lots of judder and motion blur.

Bottom line is plasma tvs i.e; even the best high end panels are not going to get close to a "crt like" experience; even in "game mode". Unfortunately, input lag is a tad too high. The only monitors that act like true crt replacements are the following professional plasma monitors.

Panasonic NeoPlasma panels; ultra-low-persistence plasmas
42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U

These units have phosphors that are faster than even the best crt monitors ie; FW900s, etc; These phosphors give these pro units "crt like" motion clarity.

This is meant to be nothing but a quick summary of my own experiences with the two panels. Im sure that in the hands of a more "expert" user the ZT60 might be a more capable and pc friendly tv. However, I can't deny that even in the hands of a more qualified user it is not a pc gaming panel, but rather a media consumption panel, and for that purpose it's close to the best I've seen. Taking everything into account I must say that I'm extremely happy to have found a plasma monitor like the TH-60PF50U. This unit has freed me from the ever present grind of collecting, maintaining and storing high end crt monitors. Any crt diehard knows how crazy the market is for crts. I have been fortunate enough to obtain three TH-60PF50Us in pristine condition and likely to last for years to come. If you can find one of these units jump on it!

 

[jbltecnicspro]

Check your inbox.

Also for any interested

This post is meant for the pc gamers who now and in the future will be in the market for a plasma monitor. I am by no means an expert on plasma technology. I have been an enthusiast of crt tech and sought out plasma as a crt replacment for gaming.

Let's start with the Panasonic TH-60PF50U commercial monitor.

1. Excellent response and minimal input lag. Great choice for every pc gamer except the hardcore FPS type
2. Image quality is outstanding and compares favorably to my high end 22 in Trinitrons and Diamondtron. The plasma actually wins here due to being easier on the eyes allowing for longer play sessions and less eye strain. Blacks are slightly better than my trinitron crts and a hair below oled.
3. The phosphors used in the TH-60PF50U are super fast and leave no ghosting or mouse trailing. Much better than any computer crt monitor in this regard. No halo effect either. Performs much better on the ANSI contrast test pattern than any crt.
4. Versatility? Outstanding! Via DVI-D can accept the gamut of resolutions and aspect ratios from 640x480 to 1920x1080. Can run 120hz at 720p. Can display aspect ratios from 4:3 all the way up to 32:9.
5. Size? The larger form factor provides excellent level of immersion over it's smaller crt cousins.
6. Performed great in the Blur Buster UFO test @60 fps. Smooth and clean image during the entire test.

Cons? Heat and power
If you are used to the way crt monitors operate then you'll have no issue with the heat and power used by this unit.
Heavy!!!! 125lbs. There's no way around it. The construction of these commercial monitors is soemthing akin to a tank and it is what it is. That said, these monitors will last many years and perform well up to 100,000 hours.

Panasonic ZT60 Studio Master Panel

1. Excellent image quality with the deepest of blacks. I am a former OLED owner and I can't see much difference between the two. Colors seem to "pop" similar to oled but with a more natural and pleasing look.
2. Size? Slim for a plasma but still weighs about 95lbs due to the glass panel.
3. This is a videophiles wet dream! If you are a consumer of movies and other media then you can't go wrong here.

Cons?
1. Slower response time; even in game mode. It's still a solid panel for the consoles, and even slower paced pc games, but if your primary platform isn't a console I can't recommend it.
2. Can't accept many resolutions and aspect ratios. The panel will reliably give you 1920x1080p at 60hz and 1280x720@120hz, but don't expect to run a bunch of custom resolutions with NVCP or similar proggies.
3. Internet browsing was an unpleasant experience. I'm sure you can create a custom color profile that would allow colors to be less vivid and more subdued, but out of the box colors on any color setting were too vivid and harsh.
4. Performed poorly on the Blur Busters UFO test @60fps. Lots of judder and motion blur.

Bottom line is plasma tvs i.e; even the best high end panels are not well suited for pc gaming. Even in "game mode" input lag is too high. The only monitors that act like true crt replacements are the following professional plasma monitors.

Panasonic NeoPlasma panels; ultra-low-persistence plasmas
42PF50U, 50PF50U, 60PF50U, 65PF50U, 42BT300U, 50BT300U, 65VX300U

These units have phosphors that are faster than even the best crt monitors ie; FW900s, etc; These phosphors give these pro units "crt like" motion clarity.

This is meant to be nothing but a quick summary of my own experiences with the two panels. Im sure that in the hands of a more "expert" user the ZT60 might be a more capable and pc friendly tv. However, I can't deny that even in the hands of a more qualified user it is not a pc gaming panel, but rather a media consumption panel, and for that purpose it's close to the best I've seen. Taking everything into account I must say that I'm extremely happy to have found a plasma monitor like the TH-60PF50U. This unit has freed me from the ever present grind of collecting, maintaining and storing high end crt monitors. Any crt diehard knows how crazy the market is for crts. I have been fortunate enough to obtain three TH-60PF50Us in pristine condition and likely to last for years to come. If you can find one of these units jump on it!

Definitely interested in these. I will say though that Samsung plasmas - the "dumb" ones are pretty good TV's too. They're on par, in motion clarity, with Panasonic TV's. Picture quality is not quite there (black levels aren't as deep - you'll get about 3000:1 contrast) but input lag is fantastic. My plasma has 32 ms of lag, and that's outside of game mode. Game mode halves it to 16ms. And yes, even though they lack contrast, they still look punchy compared to your run of the mill IPS screen.

 

[cesarioFL71]

Definitely interested in these. I will say though that Samsung plasmas - the "dumb" ones are pretty good TV's too. They're on par, in motion clarity, with Panasonic TV's. Picture quality is not quite there (black levels aren't as deep - you'll get about 3000:1 contrast) but input lag is fantastic. My plasma has 32 ms of lag, and that's outside of game mode. Game mode halves it to 16ms. And yes, even though they lack contrast, they still look punchy compared to your run of the mill IPS screen.

I think I'm being a little too harsh on the high end plasma televisions in regards to input lag. The best of them make solid gaming tvs but I've been spoiled as of late by my Neo Plasma.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

I think I'm being a little too harsh on the high end plasma televisions in regards to input lag. The best of them make solid gaming tvs but I've been spoiled as of late by my Neo Plasma.

Well yeah you’re experiencing the best of the best!

 

[SH1]

How do the monitors do on the UFO Test? I found one of the reviews from back in the day I used to keep up on:

"The Panasonic boasts a "3,000 Focused Field Drive," but as with other Panasonic plasmas, it only achieves the respectable 1,200 lines of full motion resolution of when you turn on one of the smoothing/dejudder modes. Without any of those modes on the VT60 still managed a respectable score of 700 lines."

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/panasonic-tc-p55vt60-review/

I know Chief Blur Buster discourages the use of "lines" as outdated. (And a big shout out to him for helping us so much to make sense of this issue.) I think CNET means from that terminology that these plasmas are capable of full motion resolution? But that bit about having to enable "smoothing" indicates a deficiency in the source input? Can this be corrected by feeding a higher Hz signal directly from a PC? (Or engaging interpolation, even at the cost of input lag, but if that makes motion clearer?)

Just some thoughts. I remember it seemed like Panasonic was finally matching Kuro. (Maybe better?) And just when that happened, they ceased production. Part of the sad story of displays this century. Though the clouds seem to be parting more recently...

 

[cesarioFL71]

How do the monitors do on the UFO Test? I found one of the reviews from back in the day I used to keep up on:

"The Panasonic boasts a "3,000 Focused Field Drive," but as with other Panasonic plasmas, it only achieves the respectable 1,200 lines of full motion resolution of when you turn on one of the smoothing/dejudder modes. Without any of those modes on the VT60 still managed a respectable score of 700 lines."

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/panasonic-tc-p55vt60-review/

I know Chief Blur Buster discourages the use of "lines" as outdated. (And a big shout out to him for helping us so much to make sense of this issue.) I think CNET means from that terminology that these plasmas are capable of full motion resolution? But that bit about having to enable "smoothing" indicates a deficiency in the source input? Can this be corrected by feeding a higher Hz signal directly from a PC? (Or engaging interpolation, even at the cost of input lag, but if that makes motion clearer?)

Just some thoughts. I remember it seemed like Panasonic was finally matching Kuro. (Maybe better?) And just when that happened, they ceased production. Part of the sad story of displays this century. Though the clouds seem to be parting more recently...

I mention in one of my post above that the unit passes with flying colors at 60hz with a clean, smooth image (crt like). At 120hz there is a little motion blur present due to the way the plasma works to obtain that frequency. Mark Rejhon explains the reason for the motion blur at 120hz in one of my earlier posts.

 

[SH1]

I guess this is the bit that caught my attention:

"4. Performed poorly on the Blur Busters UFO test @60fps. Lots of judder and motion blur."

Why would this be? The CNET article makes it sound like an issue with the source they used. Or that's my speculation anyway. However, if you're feeding it a clean 60 Hz native signal?

EDIT: Well, yeah, plasma internal refresh is very different versus other technologies. Guess it makes sense the monitors would have a cleaner conversion versus the tv's to those internals. Apparently enabling "one of the smoothing/dejudder modes" is a work around for the TV in this regard...

 

[cesarioFL71]

I guess this is the bit that caught my attention:

"4. Performed poorly on the Blur Busters UFO test @60fps. Lots of judder and motion blur."

Why would this be? The CNET article makes it sound like an issue with the source they used. Or that's my speculation anyway. However, if you're feeding it a clean 60 Hz native signal?

EDIT: Well, yeah, plasma internal refresh is very different versus other technologies. Guess it makes sense the monitors would have a cleaner conversion versus the tv's to those internals. Apparently enabling "one of the smoothing/dejudder modes" is a work around for the TV in this regard...

That was my thinking also. The ZT60 has so much signal processing going on that it fails utterly on that test. The test were run with the "game mode" active and there was still too much judder and blur.

 

[jbltecnicspro]

And here I was wanting to get a premium panel when I upgraded to a larger size (my 51 inch in our new house is too small).

I guess there’s something to be said for having a lesser model with minimal processing. Our mid range Samsung aces all of the motion tests, in the sense that there’s no judder. Obviously it’s no CRT.

 

[tongshadow]

Later panels, both Samsung and Panasonic, are better due to faster phosphors. My 2012 Samsung has noticeably better clarity than my other 2009 model, both are 600hz subfield driven.

 

[cesarioFL71]

A few photos of my daily driver the TH60PF50U 60in Neo Plasma Pro Monitor with ultra-low-persistence phosphors.

 

[Xar]

A few photos of my daily driver the TH60PF50U 60in Neo Plasma Pro Monitor with ultra-low-persistence phosphors.

Seems like this TV has every legacy I/Os. Have you found any difference in IQ using BNC, RCA, Composite, DVI-A/I, S-Video & VGA with your current card?

 

[cesarioFL71]

Seems like this TV has every legacy I/Os. Have you found any difference in IQ using BNC, RCA, Composite, DVI-A/I, S-Video & VGA with your current card?

I've used only the DVI, VGA and BNC inputs. The only difference between the 3 has been slightly more subdued colors using vga. Monitor is paired with an RTX 2060 using DVI-D to DVI-I (best setup), DVI-D to VGA with adapter, DP to VGA using Delock adapter.

 

[cesarioFL71]

Just passed on a Sony GDM-F520. There's simply no reason to purchase a 22in crt; even a top of the line model when you have a TH60PF50U or a TH42PF50U. The ultra low persistence phospors, screen size and image quality combined with Nvidia DSR just provide the best gaming experience. The level of motion clarity and lack of input lag combined with DSR x 4 @ 0% sharpness trumps any crt......PERIOD!!!! The OP was absolutely correct when he said these units were an FW900 killer. If you absolutely need higher NITS for HDR then get an oled but for everything else there's this.........

 

[tongshadow]

Too bad Plasmas are only 60hz, but at 60hz they're the undisputable king of displays.