Foobar vs WMP : WMP 1, Foobar 0

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Laforge

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
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I finally broke down and tried this all seeing, all knowing foobar. First impressions.. It is the suck.

WMP does so much for me, automatically..


I've got one of those nice "multimedia keyboards" with back, forward, stop, play, pause buttons. They all work in WMP even if it's MINIMIZED

However.. Foobar, they don't. I have to actually BE in the foobar window [kinda sucks when I'm playing music while playing a game, etc..]

No "sort by artist" features are evident in foobar
randomize doesn't randomize, as in if I hit "shuffle" in wmp and hit 'next' i'll get a random track. - If I hit next in foobar, I get .. 2 tracks ahead (not next track--?)

I've got to RANDOM SORT my playlist to get randomization. WMP actually does RANDOM from a "SORTED" playlist.

[this is helpful, cause if I want to stop my randomizing, and decide I want to hear "fine again" by seether, I can just go to SEETHER in the list, and click on "fine again"

in foobar, I have to either re-sort to "alphabetical order" or scan through all 18,000 mp3's I have.

While I like minimalism as much as the next guy.. what, no visualizations? Windows 3.1 GUI? I feel like i'm in program manager or notepad.

When I go to preferences to "Core->Keyboard Shortcuts" - and click ADD [i.e. I want to add a keyboard shortcut...] NOTHING happens.

I see *no* way to change what a key does.. - I mean, I see what should work, but it doesn't.

System info

WinXpPro
foobar 0.8.3 from www.foobar2000.org
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard v 1.0A on PS2
Trying to think of what could be the 'problem' -- But.. I mean, seriously guys..

This *all* works in WMP. Which also has the ability to learn my favorite songs, make
auto-playlists. Let me pick music by genre, year, artist, .. all "out of box" -- where is this
in foobar?

How is foobar superior? Foobar's sitting here taking 45mb in memory and wmplayer is taking 12.9mb.
 
I tried it but found my winamp is much better and like you said 'out of the box'
 
Guess driving stick isn't for everyone...

I'm pretty sure foobar does do some of the stuff you mention "Out of the box", but anyway you're not doing an apples-to-apples comparison, WMP is for Joe Everylistener who wants a pre configured setup that just works, that's it purpose in life, as with itunes and real and all the others.

Foobar is for people who want control, and customization, foobar will do everything that WMP does, and much, much more, but you have to shape it to your will, which takes a bit of effort.
This is by design.

I WMP does all you require, then FB2K wasn't for you in the first place.

Listen to your music and be happy.

Unless you have an Audigy.
 
My Logitech Elite's media keys work with Foobar. Good thing, cause Foobar is the most versatile MP I've ever used. And while I admit I use Winamp almost all the time, if Foobar got a sweet interface like it with a solid media library and everything, I'd be stuck on Foobar.
 
MartinX said:
Foobar is for people who want control, and customization, foobar will do everything that WMP does, and much, much more, but you have to shape it to your will, which takes a bit of effort.
This is by design..
Click to expand...


I've got control in wmp, too. - I can customize display variables, including how rips are named, - Plugin visualizations and skins are a mouseclick away, as well as DSP's.

Like a poster below (or above this one) said.. - What about UI ? - Maybe I need to do a lot more research on foobar.. but I mean, it seems to me that adding more "features" [bloat] to it, will make it suck up even MORE memory, no?

your analogy of "driving stick isn't for everyone" isn't valid here.

Because with a STICK, you get something thats also *more efficient* . - Why is foobar taking almost 400% more memory? If my car got 4 mpg stick, and 15 mpg automatic, would you defend stick usage? Don't think so.

Maybe I'm missing something.
 
I've got one of those nice "multimedia keyboards" with back, forward, stop, play, pause buttons. They all work in WMP even if it's MINIMIZED

However.. Foobar, they don't. I have to actually BE in the foobar window [kinda sucks when I'm playing music while playing a game, etc..]

Preferences -> Core -> Keyboard Shortcuts -> select an action, go to the key box, hit the key, check global hotkey, then hit the add button

No "sort by artist" features are evident in foobar

Playlist -> Sort -> Sort by Artist

randomize doesn't randomize, as in if I hit "shuffle" in wmp and hit 'next' i'll get a random track. - If I hit next in foobar, I get .. 2 tracks ahead (not next track--?)

You should get the next track if you hit next, you should get a random track if you hit random. Look into the plugin foo_shuffle

I've got to RANDOM SORT my playlist to get randomization. WMP actually does RANDOM from a "SORTED" playlist.

There is a drop-down menu, select Random or Shuffle (if you have foo_shuffle), it will go to a random song with Random after the song is over. Or you can hotkey the Random function. The Shuffle function will make your next button find a random song (you can even specify the random selection algorithm, you need foo_shuffle)

[this is helpful, cause if I want to stop my randomizing, and decide I want to hear "fine again" by seether, I can just go to SEETHER in the list, and click on "fine again"

in foobar, I have to either re-sort to "alphabetical order" or scan through all 18,000 mp3's I have.

Control-F

While I like minimalism as much as the next guy.. what, no visualizations? Windows 3.1 GUI? I feel like i'm in program manager or notepad.

foo_columns + a preset config that you can find, i recommend azrael; Foobar now supports G-Force and Whitecap visualizations, found at the developer's website.

When I go to preferences to "Core->Keyboard Shortcuts" - and click ADD [i.e. I want to add a keyboard shortcut...] NOTHING happens.

I see *no* way to change what a key does.. - I mean, I see what should work, but it doesn't.

See above.

System info

WinXpPro
foobar 0.8.3 from www.foobar2000.org
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard v 1.0A on PS2
Trying to think of what could be the 'problem' -- But.. I mean, seriously guys..

This *all* works in WMP. Which also has the ability to learn my favorite songs, make
auto-playlists. Let me pick music by genre, year, artist, .. all "out of box" -- where is this
in foobar?

It's not out of the box functionality, but maximum control ;)

How is foobar superior? Foobar's sitting here taking 45mb in memory and wmplayer is taking 12.9mb.

Foobar is taking 7.5mb of memory decoding flac files, running PPHS resampling at 96khz, outputting at 24bit padded to 32bit, with Kernel Streaming, and Columns UI 1-2% CPU usage

Hopefully this answered all your questions :)

/WMP 1 Foobar 2
 
Preferences -> Core -> Keyboard Shortcuts -> select an action, go to the key box, hit the key, check global hotkey, then hit the add button
Click to expand...
As I Said. Doesn't work.
Nothing is being added.
So.. for example.

Lets say I want my keyboards Multimedia "FORWARD" button which looks like :
>>|

to equal "[main] Playback/Next" (just for sake of argument)
[btw, this was already pre-programmed]
I scroll down to "actions" highligh "[main] Playback/Next" put my cursor in the "key" box, hit my >>| key on my keyboard (which fills with "Next (MM)" and check global hotkey.

Then I hit "Add"

it should then have (according to the foobar site)
Next (MM)..........[g][main] Playback/Next
as an entry. It does not. Hence, It is broken, not working. Bug in software? Who knows.



No "sort by artist" features are evident in foobar

Playlist -> Sort -> Sort by Artist
Click to expand...
Yet, this screws with random playback. I can't RANDOM & sort by artist. I *can* in wmp.
I.e. in wmp, I can have all my songs in one big playlist (or 1000s of little ones if i so wish) in alphabetical order by song title, by artist-> song title, by artist->album title->song title.. and STILL have it playing randomly.

Additionally, I didn't fully explain this the way I meant it, anyhow.. What I actually was getting at is that I can't choose, to say "play all michelle branch songs" like I can go to "Library" tab in WMP, and then click on "Michelle Branch" and hit "play"

in foobar, I think I have to make a new playlist to play "just" michelle branch.. - otherwise, when the last michelle branch song is played, It'll go right into moby.


randomize doesn't randomize, as in if I hit "shuffle" in wmp and hit 'next' i'll get a random track. - If I hit next in foobar, I get .. 2 tracks ahead (not next track--?)

You should get the next track if you hit next, you should get a random track if you hit random. Look into the plugin foo_shuffle
Click to expand...

I will look into this plugin. But shouldn't this be the way it is "out of the box"?
Since there is no "random" button (keypress) - Like I said.. my list is nice and sorted in wmp, by artist, and "next" (with the shuffle flag turned on) will "shuffle" -- to get "random" playback, in foobar, I have to either a) keep hitting the "random" button [between next and eject buttons in the interface] or i have to hit "sort->random"

This would be ok.. if the 'next' button on my keyboard worked.
I play some games that are fullscreen, and don't want to "tab-out" of them to skip a song I don't feel like hearing right now when I've got "random" on .. [with 18K+ songs,.. sometimes I don't want to hear something in my collection .. it can happen]

I've got to RANDOM SORT my playlist to get randomization. WMP actually does RANDOM from a "SORTED" playlist.

There is a drop-down menu, select Random or Shuffle (if you have foo_shuffle), it will go to a random song with Random after the song is over. Or you can hotkey the Random function. The Shuffle function will make your next button find a random song (you can even specify the random selection algorithm, you need foo_shuffle)
Click to expand...

SO.. I guess what I'm reading here is that foo_shuffle is a "non included" plugin - I.e. "shuffling" feature is not a "native" piece of the program, hence, this is why it doesn't shuffle right.. That explains a lot. Apparently you are right.. I *need* foo_shuffle

[this is helpful, cause if I want to stop my randomizing, and decide I want to hear "fine again" by seether, I can just go to SEETHER in the list, and click on "fine again"

in foobar, I have to either re-sort to "alphabetical order" or scan through all 18,000 mp3's I have.

Control-F
Click to expand...

I knew about that already, but, with wmp's library function, I don't have to "ctrl-f" - I can just put it in the always present search box, or just hit the artist by name without having to scroll down through all 18,000 tracks.


While I like minimalism as much as the next guy.. what, no visualizations? Windows 3.1 GUI? I feel like i'm in program manager or notepad.

foo_columns + a preset config that you can find, i recommend azrael; Foobar now supports G-Force and Whitecap visualizations, found at the developer's website.
Click to expand...
Guess I need to grab a ton of plugins.. Maybe after being "plug-in enriched" foobar is better. - But my q remains.. won't these plug-ins bloat it even more?

System info

WinXpPro
foobar 0.8.3 from www.foobar2000.org
Microsoft Natural Multimedia Keyboard v 1.0A on PS2
Trying to think of what could be the 'problem' -- But.. I mean, seriously guys..

This *all* works in WMP. Which also has the ability to learn my favorite songs, make
auto-playlists. Let me pick music by genre, year, artist, .. all "out of box" -- where is this
in foobar?

It's not out of the box functionality, but maximum control ;)
Click to expand...

I'll give it more energy. - Guess I'm so used to having things handed to me on a silver platter when using microsoft products :)

How is foobar superior? Foobar's sitting here taking 45mb in memory and wmplayer is taking 12.9mb.

Foobar is taking 7.5mb of memory decoding flac files, running PPHS resampling at 96khz, outputting at 24bit padded to 32bit, with Kernel Streaming, and Columns UI 1-2% CPU usage
Click to expand...

So, is my ver buggered to hell then? Does it not like something about my system. I didn't do anything except for "default" setup.

I think I Need "foobar special" .. just saw that.


Lastly..

Why is it skipping TWO tracks at a time?
 
Laforge said:
I've got control in wmp, too. - I can customize display variables, including how rips are named, - Plugin visualizations and skins are a mouseclick away, as well as DSP's.

Like a poster below (or above this one) said.. - What about UI ? - Maybe I need to do a lot more research on foobar.. but I mean, it seems to me that adding more "features" [bloat] to it, will make it suck up even MORE memory, no?

your analogy of "driving stick isn't for everyone" isn't valid here.

Because with a STICK, you get something thats also *more efficient* . - Why is foobar taking almost 400% more memory? If my car got 4 mpg stick, and 15 mpg automatic, would you defend stick usage? Don't think so.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Click to expand...

I don't think I've ever seen foobar use anything like that amount of RAM, it's usually 10 or below for me.

I didn't mean to be insulting with the stick/auto analogy, my basic point was that if you've ever thought there was something that you wished WMP did but didn't, chances are foobar does, but it requires greater input on the part of the "driver", if you haven't thought that, then you don't need foobar.

To be brutally honest, if it wasn't for the "Audigy Factor" I'd be happy enough with iTunes, and once I get my 0404 wired in I'll probably go back to iTunes, but foobar does something that WMP and iTunes just can't which I needed.

It doesn't pretend to be an out of the box universally perfect player, so it shouldn't be criticised for that.

I don't always agree with the blind "its teh bestestest payar EVAR!!!11!!!" stance that many take however. Horses for courses and all that...

Still, isn't under-the-hood, DIY aspect of playing with our chosen range of toys sort of what it is all about?
 
Ok.. I went through and tried something just now.

I *removed*

Next (MM) [main]Playback/Next entry completely.


and for some reason.. it still works?

Saved, and closed foobar completely, is the odd thing.
It's *NOT* in my list of keyboard shortcuts.

With that key removed, why is foobar even replying to "next" button?

I completely removed *all* shortcuts, and 'next' still works [not globally, mind you..]
 
You may have to disable Enable Multimedia Keyboard Support under Core
 
The foo_shuffle plugin should be included by default IMO, but as for now, it isn't. As for the keyboard issue, you may just have to play around with it until you find settings that work with your keyboard.

If you want to play songs just from a certain artist, genre, etc... you will have to select all the songs (control-f), then right click -> Send to Playlist. then just go to that playlist. Make sure you enable the playlist sidebar, it makes things much more convenient.
 
About the high memory usage, I see many people recomending using the special installer. The problem with this is the special installer comes with many plugins most people will never use. I recomend you use the light installer and then add the plugins you need. Doing this I dropped my memory usage to ~5mb.
 
Laforge, and anyone else interested in foobar: I can email you my foobar dir that already has all the important [to me at least =] plugins configured, and you can manipulate it from there. Foobar can do all the things that you want, but it requires some time to learn it.

Also, memory usage will go up as you scroll through playlists, as it stores new info in memory to boost speed. Running it minimized right now, even with all my plugins and 30000 files, it's only taking 5megs of RAM. If I start scrolling through the playlists, it dumps that info into RAM, and usage can increase to upwards of 30meg.

And for anyone who thinks foobar is ugly:
http://www.iupload.net/022005/derfoo.JPG
 
siliconnerd said:
About the high memory usage, I see many people recomending using the special installer. The problem with this is the special installer comes with many plugins most people will never use. I recomend you use the light installer and then add the plugins you need. Doing this I dropped my memory usage to ~5mb.
Click to expand...

Plugins do not add to memory usage if they are not loaded. I used the special installer and right now... its using 4.5 megs of memory.
 
Foobar can use ANY keys you want as global hotkeys, not only multimedia keys, but any other keys that you want, and you can map any functionality in foobar to those hotkeys.

I have my multimedia keys mapped, but I also have all my commonly used functions mapped to the keyboard. If you're having trouble, the keyboard driver's are probably to blame. If you use generic keyboard drivers without any weird preprogrammed functionality built into the mm buttons, foobar works fine. The problem is that the keyboard manufacturers build in support for WMP and Winamp 'for convenience' that make it a pain for foobar. Try killing off the keyboard software support while you're programming in your global hotkeys. It should work afterwards even with the keyboard software enabled.

Basically, all the functionality is there in foobar. Rather than throwing it all at you though, they leave it minimalist, giving you the option to implement that functionality should you want it. Want to play random songs from the same artist? Shuffle with +artist. But not only that, you can play random songs with any matching tag pattern. Foobar's playlist implementation is so quick and flexible too that I find myself throwing together all sorts of playlists for varying needs. In combination with the very fast and efficient database searching mechanism, I can find and listen to any song or set of songs I want in moments.
 
NightRaven said:
Foobar can use ANY keys you want as global hotkeys, not only multimedia keys, but any other keys that you want, and you can map any functionality in foobar to those hotkeys.

I have my multimedia keys mapped, but I also have all my commonly used functions mapped to the keyboard. If you're having trouble, the keyboard driver's are probably to blame. If you use generic keyboard drivers without any weird preprogrammed functionality built into the mm buttons, foobar works fine. The problem is that the keyboard manufacturers build in support for WMP and Winamp 'for convenience' that make it a pain for foobar. Try killing off the keyboard software support while you're programming in your global hotkeys. It should work afterwards even with the keyboard software enabled.

Basically, all the functionality is there in foobar. Rather than throwing it all at you though, they leave it minimalist, giving you the option to implement that functionality should you want it. Want to play random songs from the same artist? Shuffle with +artist. But not only that, you can play random songs with any matching tag pattern. Foobar's playlist implementation is so quick and flexible too that I find myself throwing together all sorts of playlists for varying needs. In combination with the very fast and efficient database searching mechanism, I can find and listen to any song or set of songs I want in moments.
Click to expand...


Well, if anything, microsoft would most likely *not* pre-program support for say, winamp or iTunes, but would design for wmp. But.. on a side note. - I deleted my foobar, reinstalled the "special" version, and it's using 37-45mb..

I tried a little experiment and put it on my shuttle. On my shuttle I'm running anywhere from 4-7 mb.. confused by this, I started wondering why it would be using SO much more ram on my big rig, than on my "little" rig. and then it struck me.


My big rig has 8 times as much ram.. I know it doesn't make sense, but, I think it may have something to do with that [my rig in sig is a bit incorrect, as I'm actually running *4* gigs of ram. So.. I thought that was it. - I shut down, pulled 3 of my memory sticks and ran @ 1 gb.. - rebooted, ran foobar, and .. voila.. 8 mb was the highest it hit. It *shouldn't* be that way, but.. I think foobar, when put in a system with "so much" ram [and, btw, NO swapfile] takes a lot more ram...

Also.. Talonz nailed on the head why i was getting double skips.


Lastly. - After removing ALL the keys from the keyboard shortcuts, I was able to actually ADD global keys.

SO... for that much of my 'problems' with it, -- [i.e. being able to use my keyboard in foobar like i use my keyboard in wmp] I've solved that issue.

as for BO(V)BZ - I'll take you up on your offer : PM me and I can give you a private FTP to upload to [owning your own web servers has it's advantages]
 
Talonz said:
Plugins do not add to memory usage if they are not loaded. I used the special installer and right now... its using 4.5 megs of memory.
Click to expand...
It might not show up in the task manager, but removing unused plugins increased the load up and shutdown speed and made the program much more responsive.
 
Hi,
I was wondering what the consensus was on what the differences in audio ouput quality for Foobar and Winamp 5 are? (I know this is also dependent on your hardware.) Foobar's default settings sound better to me than Winamp when playing back 44.1kHz files (both Rock and Classical). I'm typically listening using an Audigy2ZS and Sennheiser HD555s.

Anyone have more of a concrete answer on this? Any suggested DSP/Output plugins for either program?

Thanks.
 
Here is one simple reason why I don't use WMP at all:

Sound quality. You see, WMP sends EVERYTHING to the Windows Kmixer, whether you like it or not, due to the fact that WMP's only available output is DirectSound. The Kmixer is notorious for resampling any chosen quantization/sampling rate to the same chosen rate, but changes bits in the process. That will mangle the sound in many cases. The internal resampling of most consumer soundcards to 16/48 will only make the Kmixer mangling worse.
 
I think there must be something wrong with your install. With transparancies and all kinds of things going on my mem usage is still under 10mb. I have a Microsoft Wireless Natural Multimedia keyboard and the keys work perfectly for foobar whether it it activated or not (and without configuring anything). I think the special version should be made default. Do you have the Intellitype drivers installed?


edit: i see you fixed most of the problems
 
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