firies2000
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DAN A4-SFX: The smallest gaming case in the world
- Thread starter dondan
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the case has no fans. there is no fan blowing cool air on anything. the only fan moving air out of the case is the PSU, which does NOT move much air. a blower GPU would cause more negative air pressure in the case, drawing cool air in and helping everything including the CPU. but if a blower GPU was NOT used, there would be less negative pressure bringing cool air into the case, AND all the heat of the GPU would now be staying INSIDE the case. so to not use a blower GPU in this case would be highly inadvisable
Barbarian_PT
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There isn't any defined airflow inside the case. The case is all opened! The air enter directly from outside to the components and the hot air will go up and out of the case naturally!
Pretty much this until we see test results
Each major heat producing component, GPU, CPU, PSU has nearly direct access to ambient temperature air. The PSU exhaust is not venting any hot air from within the case; its exhaust proximity to the top of the case means it takes in fresh air and expels directly out the top. I would consider this "zero" pressure.
The CPU HSF should be positioned to intake air directly from outside the case through the side panel. I imagine that mounting the fins parallel to the width of the case (vertically) would perform slightly better than mounting the fins parallel to the length of the case (horizontally). Since the CPU HSF is acting as an intake, this would be positive pressure on the CPU half of the case. Reversing the fan to induce negative pressure (exhaust) would likely result in poor performance.
The GPU HSF should be similarly mounted: direct intake from outside the case through the side panel. A "reference" centrifugal fan with a perfectly sealed shroud would function similar to the PSU providing "zero" pressure. An "open" axial fan would function similarly to the CPU HSF. I don't know of any GPU HSF that blows away from the card, so this would be positive pressure.
Storage drives will suffer the most, but they aren't typically considered high heat components. I'll put my bet on CPU HSFs and open GPU HSFs both with vertically aligned fins providing the best overall system cooling. Even better if you mask the unnecessary perforations for intake.
dondan
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DrakonSan: Thank you for making this clear.
The first testresults show me, that the cooling princible of the A4-SFX works as expected. The temperatur difference between an open build without a case and with the closed case are on the GPU 2°C higher and on the CPU 3°C higher. This means the DAN A4-SFX is using one of the most effivient coolsystem. I will release more Details and Values in the next days.
The first testresults show me, that the cooling princible of the A4-SFX works as expected. The temperatur difference between an open build without a case and with the closed case are on the GPU 2°C higher and on the CPU 3°C higher. This means the DAN A4-SFX is using one of the most effivient coolsystem. I will release more Details and Values in the next days.
galletabah
Limp Gawd
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i want this case right now.....
when do you think this case will sell?
when do you think this case will sell?
dondan
[H]ard|Gawd
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I don't know. If I finalized everything...I can't give a realistic date.
I will agree to disagree about this, for now
I concede the possibility that this case may be so small, and the fit with components so tight, that it is theoretically possible to find components that "nearly" touch the side of the case when closed, thus virtually acting like case fans themselves. But if there is too much space between the fans and the case, then those vent holes will act like a "nearly" solid surface
Black5Lion
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I will agree to disagree about this, for now
I concede the possibility that this case may be so small, and the fit with components so tight, that it is theoretically possible to find components that "nearly" touch the side of the case when closed, thus virtually acting like case fans themselves. But if there is too much space between the fans and the case, then those vent holes will act like a "nearly" solid surface
Ducts! Ducts everywhere!
Ducts! The solution to all your airflow problems!
No, really. Just add more ducts.
The big problem with an internally exhausting ('open' cooler) GPU vs an externally exhausting (blower) GPU is that the blower will dump hot air out the back of the case while pulling cool air in from the side. The open cooler will be dumping air inside the case right next to the intake fans. Ducting just for the intakes is not enough, as hot exhaust air will exit from the vent holes around the ducted air and immediately re-enter and re-circulate. You will either need to either:
- Duct the hot air output from the edges of the open cooler to the top/bottom/rear of the case, away from the sides, to prevent it re-entering. A massive pain becuase it essentially mens dustom ducting for every card design, and gets in the way of working in the case, but the most efficient option
- Duct the fan intakes on the sides and block off the rest of the side panel, forcing the exhaust to exit from the top/bottom/rear. Hot exhaust air can still leak around to the PSU and CPU though, but if these are not thermally limited this may be acceptable.
- Duct the 'intake' fans and reverse the fan flow direction (so you are in effect ducting the exhaust). This has the drawback of reducing the cooler efficiency due to air bypassing the heatsink by flowing around the inside of the shroud straight to the fan (less of an issue for air forced into the heatsink as the moving air has some momentum to keep it aimed through the heatsink).
- Don't bother ducting at all, and rely on the larger heatsink fin area and large slowmoving fans to provide an acceptable temperature even with recirculating hot air.
No, really. Just add more ducts.
The big problem with an internally exhausting ('open' cooler) GPU vs an externally exhausting (blower) GPU is that the blower will dump hot air out the back of the case while pulling cool air in from the side. The open cooler will be dumping air inside the case right next to the intake fans. Ducting just for the intakes is not enough, as hot exhaust air will exit from the vent holes around the ducted air and immediately re-enter and re-circulate. You will either need to either:
- Duct the hot air output from the edges of the open cooler to the top/bottom/rear of the case, away from the sides, to prevent it re-entering. A massive pain becuase it essentially mens dustom ducting for every card design, and gets in the way of working in the case, but the most efficient option
- Duct the fan intakes on the sides and block off the rest of the side panel, forcing the exhaust to exit from the top/bottom/rear. Hot exhaust air can still leak around to the PSU and CPU though, but if these are not thermally limited this may be acceptable.
- Duct the 'intake' fans and reverse the fan flow direction (so you are in effect ducting the exhaust). This has the drawback of reducing the cooler efficiency due to air bypassing the heatsink by flowing around the inside of the shroud straight to the fan (less of an issue for air forced into the heatsink as the moving air has some momentum to keep it aimed through the heatsink).
- Don't bother ducting at all, and rely on the larger heatsink fin area and large slowmoving fans to provide an acceptable temperature even with recirculating hot air.
Very, very true. I want to believe this solution will work... so I will! In this case, being off 1mm is 'nearly' being off a mile. :-P
You don't need ducts, just (duct) tape. :-P I wonder what manner of travesty it would be considered to mod the sides with custom duct drilled polycarbonate?Ducts! Ducts everywhere!
Brandonandon
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I just got my EVGA 970 SC (reference style w/ blower). The noise is awful. Horrible. My old 770 SC was so nice compared to this groaning card. I think I'm going to have to return it despite having claimed the game codes since they came before the card. Anyone know of any good reference 970s? I'm interested in that Turbo one by ASUS maybe.
Best blower is of course the reference one from nVidia, but since it very difficult to find I think that MSI GTX 970 4GD5 OC would be a close second choice. Shroud is plastic, but cooler it self is same as the reference (nVidia) solution. Also the PCB on that card is 980 reference PCB (proper full length one, not like others where cooler extends past the PCB for few inches)
That *is* the reference cooler from nVidia, just the one for cards below the top tier.
The one you mean is generally called the "Titan Cooler". There are a few GTX 970s with the Titan Cooler available - usually from odd places - but they're priced halfway between a 970 and a 980 or more.
I'd really consider just going full monty then. Once you factor in the higher resale value of a proper 980, you probably pay 10-15% more for a card that's 15-20% faster.
Looks to me like any other 970/960 reference blower.
This is not the reference cooler from nVidia. Most of 970 with blower style cooler have a reused 670 shitty cooler. The "Titan cooler", as you call it, has a vapor chamber. One that is reference for 970/980 does not - they look same from the outside as the "Titan cooler". REFERENCE cooler for 970 and 980 is same - 970 with it are rare, although available and as you said have a price premium.
If you take the time and actually think/look before you type you would see that this card (the MSI one mentioned earlier) is different from almost all other ones. Has a full length PCB and cooler that has same internal structure as the reference 970/980 one, but the shroud is different - it's made from plastic.
yolostrats
Weaksauce
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I have been designing my own similarly sized case for about as long. In my earlier design that had the same coolers intaking fresh air direct from outside, an idea was to use foam around the fan circles. The thickness would have been 2-4mm but could be anything to match the cooler used.
I've since stopped using that kind of intake, preferring to cover the component cooler fans to improve noise performance from most angles.
I've since stopped using that kind of intake, preferring to cover the component cooler fans to improve noise performance from most angles.
The GTX 970 cooler situation is... Murky. There is no true 'reference' cooler, as there is no reference design for the 970.
- Reviewers were sampled 970 chips on 980 PCBs with 980 coolers
- Most card manufacturers dropped 970 chips onto 760 PCBs (and used 760 coolers, which themselves were generally 670 coolers)
- A few card manufacturers made custom PCBs for some of their 970s, and used modifications of their custom coolers
- One OEM (Manli) are putting 970 chips on 980 PCBs with 980 coolers (NVTTM with the main heatsink using heatpipes instead of a vapour chamber), and these are sold by OCUK in the UK and Best Buy in the US
- Reviewers were sampled 970 chips on 980 PCBs with 980 coolers
- Most card manufacturers dropped 970 chips onto 760 PCBs (and used 760 coolers, which themselves were generally 670 coolers)
- A few card manufacturers made custom PCBs for some of their 970s, and used modifications of their custom coolers
- One OEM (Manli) are putting 970 chips on 980 PCBs with 980 coolers (NVTTM with the main heatsink using heatpipes instead of a vapour chamber), and these are sold by OCUK in the UK and Best Buy in the US
I *have* looked, thank you very much.
Here is a review of the MSI card you mentioned. There's a picture gallery. Pic 8 of 22 shows the cooler without the shroud. Et voilà - it's the 670/760/970 cooler.
Ah, thanks for the info. Heatpipes vs. vapor chamber should make any difference. At least it doesn't seem to in CPU coolers. GPU cooling is probably airflow and heatsink-size limited anyway.
you just made my point
http://cdn2.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/GeForce-GTX-780-Cooler.png
Yup, the vapour chamber on the original Titan (and the Titan X, 780 and 780ti) is necessary due to the sheer amount of heat they needs to get rid of, but for the 980 (and 970) the heatpipe variant is sufficient. In the event you want to go for an extreme overclock on a near-stock cooler for some reason (and probably have more money than sense) you could raid a Titan or Titan X for a vapour chamber heatsink and install it on a 970 or 980, as they are the same size with and mounting holes and the heatsink 'floats' within the NVTTM.
That MSI card is an odd one. It's definitely not the normal rebadged 760/670 POS OEM blower cooler, but it's also not an NVTTM. It does, however, share the exact same thermal layout as the NVTTM. The main differences are the shroud (slightly different shape, plastic rather than Magnesium alloy), possibly a different fan (the cage looks the same, but the hub is different), lack of a baseplate/heatspreader below the heatsink, and a different heatsink over the GPU itself (you can see the MSI heatsink is lacking the 'folded' fins near the top and bottom, and the fins themselves are noticeably thicker and less dense). The VRM heatsink looks the same.
That MSI card is an odd one. It's definitely not the normal rebadged 760/670 POS OEM blower cooler, but it's also not an NVTTM. It does, however, share the exact same thermal layout as the NVTTM. The main differences are the shroud (slightly different shape, plastic rather than Magnesium alloy), possibly a different fan (the cage looks the same, but the hub is different), lack of a baseplate/heatspreader below the heatsink, and a different heatsink over the GPU itself (you can see the MSI heatsink is lacking the 'folded' fins near the top and bottom, and the fins themselves are noticeably thicker and less dense). The VRM heatsink looks the same.
Are you kiddin' me?!
GTX 670 cooler
http://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/151753/3/nvidia-geforce-gtx-670.jpg
Titan cooler
http://images.anandtech.com/doci/6760/GeForceGTX_Titan_3Qtr2a.jpg
The MSI has the same heatsink (notice the two black strips and the size) as the 670, it just has an additional, larger VRM heatsink.
The Titan heatsink has two prominent dents in it.
The MSI also has the same fan as the 670 - look at the little holes.
Actually, I believe someone had tried this and indicated it isn't possible due to one of the output's locations being different between the 780ti/Titan and the 980. The post was here on [H], but would be very difficult to source at this point. It may have been the DVI.
ant_mcbane
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Yeah one of the posts is here:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1859390&highlight=
I never continued the conversation in that thread but the titan cooler that I ended up getting was just unworkably the wrong dimensions - The amount I'd have to gut out would have compromised the cooling system more than I would have liked.
http://www.coolingconfigurator.com/u..._pcb_64869.jpg
http://img.videocardz.com/1/2013/05/...ITAN-PCB-2.jpg
Note how much more the 980's DVI connector sticks out vs the 780, that is the issue.
Either way - The fact that 970/980s dont seem to go above about 80 degrees due to the better thermal efficiency means they're gonna be much better in the A4 regardless.
The main issue with the short pcb blower 970's seems to be the noise - The MSI ones do look to be the best compromise.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1859390&highlight=
I never continued the conversation in that thread but the titan cooler that I ended up getting was just unworkably the wrong dimensions - The amount I'd have to gut out would have compromised the cooling system more than I would have liked.
http://www.coolingconfigurator.com/u..._pcb_64869.jpg
http://img.videocardz.com/1/2013/05/...ITAN-PCB-2.jpg
Note how much more the 980's DVI connector sticks out vs the 780, that is the issue.
Either way - The fact that 970/980s dont seem to go above about 80 degrees due to the better thermal efficiency means they're gonna be much better in the A4 regardless.
The main issue with the short pcb blower 970's seems to be the noise - The MSI ones do look to be the best compromise.
Black5Lion
Limp Gawd
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Outside of all the Titan talk.
Would it be a good idea to use a duct/adapter with the CPU cooler so you could use a 120mm fan?
I mean like with the NH-L9i or AR05 instead of using a 92mm fan, you could use a 92mm>120mm adapter and a slim 120mm fan. Should be quieter, but will it perform better?
I currently have a Cooler Master GeminII M4 which unfortunately is too tall for the A4, but this thing is whisper quiet. I mean I could put my ear right next to it and all I hear is a gentle air "whoosh". I was hoping I'd be able to use the fan from it in the A4. (it's called the Cooler Master Extraflo IIRC)
Would it be a good idea to use a duct/adapter with the CPU cooler so you could use a 120mm fan?
I mean like with the NH-L9i or AR05 instead of using a 92mm fan, you could use a 92mm>120mm adapter and a slim 120mm fan. Should be quieter, but will it perform better?
I currently have a Cooler Master GeminII M4 which unfortunately is too tall for the A4, but this thing is whisper quiet. I mean I could put my ear right next to it and all I hear is a gentle air "whoosh". I was hoping I'd be able to use the fan from it in the A4. (it's called the Cooler Master Extraflo IIRC)
I hate how everyone is completely writing off open air coolers for this case before any results are in. Since open air coolers generally have bigger fans, better air flow, and less noise there would have to be considerable adverse venting conditions for an open air cooler to actually be outperformed by a blower style. This case has plenty of ventilation holes, so I highly doubt a blower is actually going to out-perform an open air cooler like the ASUS Strix.
temps of strix with out-of-box OC vs. 980 reference blower: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_980_STRIX_OC/29.html
fan noise: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_980_STRIX_OC/24.html
The strix is outperforming the reference blower by 14 degrees, producing 4 less decibels, and also running 7% faster out of the box. I'll eat my hat if a reference 980 can outperform a quality open air cooler in this case with all conditions being equal. I don't see any way it can happen.
temps of strix with out-of-box OC vs. 980 reference blower: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_980_STRIX_OC/29.html
fan noise: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASUS/GTX_980_STRIX_OC/24.html
The strix is outperforming the reference blower by 14 degrees, producing 4 less decibels, and also running 7% faster out of the box. I'll eat my hat if a reference 980 can outperform a quality open air cooler in this case with all conditions being equal. I don't see any way it can happen.
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dondan
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The case will work with blowerstyle and openair too. Both will be work perfecly and more efficient than in nearly any other normal case.
The efficient of the case is amazing. With efficient I mean the difference between cooling the components without a case and inside the closed case. There is no other air based cooling case (except benchtables) that I know, that is reaching temperatures that are so close too the temperatures of usage without a case.
But I will let you know more in the next days
The efficient of the case is amazing. With efficient I mean the difference between cooling the components without a case and inside the closed case. There is no other air based cooling case (except benchtables) that I know, that is reaching temperatures that are so close too the temperatures of usage without a case.
But I will let you know more in the next days
Reference coolers are an affront to humanity.
That's why I wanted to hear, Dan my man.The case will work with blowerstyle and openair too. Both will be work perfecly and more efficient than in nearly any other normal case.
The efficient of the case is amazing. With efficient I mean the difference between cooling the components without a case and inside the closed case. There is no other air based cooling case (except benchtables) that I know, that is reaching temperatures that are so close too the temperatures of usage without a case.
But I will let you know more in the next days
Now get that kickstarter ready, there's 250 bucks in my wallet I desperately need to part with.
I just have doubts open air coolers can do an equally or a better job then reference blowers from experience even with vents right by the GPU (250D & Caselabs S3). In both cases overall temps were better with blower style coolers. Also, I know it's not a good comparison but I ran my Ncase M1 without any case fans and temps were 20-35C higher. I already said it's not a good comparison but the M1 does have a lot of ventilation holes.
I'm glad Dan is saying the results are looking good for open air coolers because I prefer them when the conditions are right. I think they tend to be on the quieter and cooler side.
Ncase M1 has terrible ventilation in the GPU area. Without case fans or ducting, the GPU pulls air from around it and not the openings a slot below. All exhaust holes are at the top part of the case furthest away from the GPU. It seemed to be built for water cooling and the Accelero cooler.
Dan's case might be better theoretically for non-modded air cooling because the GPU fans are right up to the side of the case and the top exhaust is not that far away.
I should of specifically said the 20-35C higher temps in the M1 were not including the GPU. That's why when I compared GPU temps, I mentioned the 250D and S3.
Very good point! Sound is a problem, and putting a solid surface between a fan and your ears can help. It's a good optimization problem to consider for DAN A4 v2.0!
Yes, I think that is a good idea for a custom mod!
CknSalad
Limp Gawd
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Hey Dondan, if you can and have time, it would be nice to see noise testing done as my only major concern is how loud it'll be under normal use conditions. Under gaming or heavy load conditions, I can tolerate some noise as I usually just use earbuds to get rid of most of the noise. The main problem to me will be the SFX psu as all the ones that Silverstone has on the market are quite noisy under load.
That's going to be difficult. The L9i and the AR05 are both listed as 37mm high, including their slim fans. Dan gives a max cooler height of 48mm. That leaves 11mm for the adapter height and the ones I've seen are way thicker than that.
The noise emitted would depend on the components used. Dan could do a measurement of one specific combination of hardware. As you said, the most fickle piece will be the PSU, as you don't have the option of using anything remotely silent.
A couple of GPU manufacturers are employing zero fan mode and a Haswell CPU can easily be cooled quietly under web surfing conditions. But those SFX(-L) PSUs are bitchy.
The A4 as such is also not an ideal design for a silent performance PC in general.
iFreilicht
[H]ard|Gawd
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Well there's also the ITX30 which is 30mm with it's 10mm fan, so you could use that with a 25mm thick 140mm fan and just mount it with double sided foam tape on the side panel.
It may involve a bit of cutting, though. The fan is slightly recessed inside the heatsink.
Black5Lion
Limp Gawd
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Well there's also the ITX30 which is 30mm with it's 10mm fan, so you could use that with a 25mm thick 140mm fan and just mount it with double sided foam tape on the side panel.
It may involve a bit of cutting, though. The fan is slightly recessed inside the heatsink.
That could work, but maybe with a slim 15mm fan.
I'm just eyeballing it here, but it seems the cooler might be ~25ishmm, with a 25mm thick fan you would be cutting real close to 48mm.
On the other hand if you use a slim fan, the airflow wouldn't be very directed to the heatsink unless you use a duct.