CMSS 3D - disable for anything natively surround?

D

Deusfaux

Gawd
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Apr 11, 2006
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I'm getting conflicting information.

On one hand, some say to disable CMSS 3D in creative audio drivers for 5.1 sources, as you'd be upmixing channels when they already all receive their own discrete information. It would muddy the sound and degrade the quality to some degree.

On the other hand, at least one guy said CMSS 3D won't do anything for multi sources anyways, and only do any "work" for stereo or mono sources, effectively allowing you to leave it on for your music, and it won't degrade your multi channel games/movies.

Verdict?
 
It should be smart enough to leave a native 5.1 signal alone - depending on what speaker configuration you have set in the control panel. I have tried turning it on and off when listening to a 5.1 movie on my system (outputting to a 5.1 receiver) and didn't notice any difference (it does make a difference when tried on a stereo signal). But I usually use mine for down-mixing 5.1 to headphone.
 
Try a scene in a movie that you know well. Even listen to your favorite song you have heard a hundred times. Upmix with CMSS-3D and then turn it off. Alternate repeatedly and see which one you like best.
 
Earl I cannot tell you how much I hate responses like that to tech questions.

There is a RIGHT and a WRONG answer.

"do whatever you like" is a non-answer, and goes without saying. I'm not four years old; I'm pretty sure that if I wanted something, I'd be aware that I could do it.

Either CMSS-3D enabled with multi channel sources does or does not affect the output. I am mostly concerned with games here, though it shouldn't make a difference. Some people say it does (turn it off), one guy said it doesnt (doesn't matter).

I am aware of what it does and how it sounds like on 2 channel sources. In those cases, I do indeed prefer to double the up the front channels to the rear channels and utilize more of the speakers in the room.
 
You should be able to tell pretty easily though, CMSS is not subtle by any means. Would be nice if Creative documented this stuff though.
 
Deusfaux said:
Earl I cannot tell you how much I hate responses like that to tech questions.

There is a RIGHT and a WRONG answer.

"do whatever you like" is a non-answer, and goes without saying. I'm not four years old; I'm pretty sure that if I wanted something, I'd be aware that I could do it.

Either CMSS-3D enabled with multi channel sources does or does not affect the output. I am mostly concerned with games here, though it shouldn't make a difference. Some people say it does (turn it off), one guy said it doesnt (doesn't matter).

I am aware of what it does and how it sounds like on 2 channel sources. In those cases, I do indeed prefer to double the up the front channels to the rear channels and utilize more of the speakers in the room.
Click to expand...


Extreme audiophiles will tell you that you never upmix any stereo source.

If you have a two channel source for music and a 5.1 speaker set up chosen in Windows' control panel, CMSS-3D will upmix the source.

In the CMSS-3D control panel there are two choices for surround or expand. expand is going to double your left channel in both your front left and back left and the same for the right.

surround will take stereo sources from being just in front of you and curve it around you. The front channel sounds will tend to dissipate toward the rear speakers.

If you have a 5.1 movie chosen, and you have five speakers setup in the control panel, CMSS-3D with surround will do nothing as there is nothing that would need to be done.

Stereo Expand gives a terrible effect to native 5.1 sources.

I hope this helps.

I asked these same questions years ago as you are when the technologies were introduced. At times, I will upmix some stereo music because I like a "club" or "techno" sound to what I am listening to. I have never seen a club with two speakers ever, but at times it sounds fun and enjoyable.

Would I want to hear classical or acoustic music upmixed? NEVER. Some people would. So I cannot tell you there is ONLY ONE way to choose an effect in the control panel. If there were, it would seem that Creative would have made certain choices grey out in different speaker configurations.
 
I just tried it again with a couple of movies, and turning CMSS-3D on and off made no difference to the sound, and least when sent via optical to my receiver. A stereo source had a noticeable difference, as expected.
 
stereo xpand sounds like crap i think in any situation.

I should have been more clear though - how stereo surround cmss 3d affects games with native multi surround sound

I assume it must affect the sound output, if stereo xpand does
 
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CMSS-3D adds the perception of depth as well as height in games. Surround is great but the sense of up and down is necessary as well.

Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D are similar in theory but not performance.
 
...

is CMSS 3D stereo surround affect the output whatsoever from multi channel audio games; ie, is it make the output worse or not what was intended by the designers?

OR

does it have zero effect on multi channel sources, like games.

it does something for 2 channel sources. does it do something on multi channel sources.

if it does, I'll shut it off and play the games the way there were designed.
 
If you have a 5.1 setup, why bother with it at all? The Z5500 has built-in Dolby Pro Logic, doesn't it? Just let it handle the up-convert for stereo music.
 
I've found the term "CMSS 3D" used for multiple things.

"CMSS" was always the expansion of stereo sources into multichannel fake surround. Unfortunately, they also call their mapping of 5.1 sound into stereo headphones "CMSS 3D".

I have 5.1 analog speakers and I believe that I have observed that CMSS expansion does nothing to greater-than-stereo sources. I leave it all turned off for stereo music sources because I generally don't like the effect. Sometimes I'll set one of the DTS::Neo modes depending on the material. I use CMSS 3D all the time when gaming on headphones where it really makes a difference mapping positional audio into the headphone environment.
 
Terribly sorry for digging up an old thread, but I have the same question, still with no definitive answer.

Forceman said:
If you have a 5.1 setup, why bother with it at all? The Z5500 has built-in Dolby Pro Logic, doesn't it? Just let it handle the up-convert for stereo music.
Click to expand...

First, CMSS 3D sounds a lot better (bolder, more voluminous) than Dolby Pro Logic II (at least to my dilettante's ear). I'm not necessarily saying it sounds more correct, just "yummier".

Second, one would need switching constantly between the modes, which is not very convenient on Z5500 (takes several button pushes to cycle between effects).

Which brings us back to the topic: Does CMSS 3D Surround actually require switching off for 5.1 sources? A simple question, yet no definitive "tech" answer, only some "earballing" test results. Am I to believe there is no such thing in existence as a tech documentation or something for CMSS 3D?
 
Tech docs? lol

I wish.

Not that I have ever seen. As far as i know, you need to turn it off manually.
 
spaceman said:
As far as i know, you need to turn it off manually.
Click to expand...

That's the question: Do I, really? Because when I'm listening to 5.1 sources, I really don't hear any difference when turning the CMSS 3D off. I'm not saying there is no difference, I just don't hear it. Is there any test or something allowing to tell if there's any difference? Like comparing visual graphs or something? That would be really helpful.

A side question: In Audigy 4 you were able to switch between CMSS and CMSS 2, the latter being my preference. I see it's gone in X-Fi Titanium. Is it based entirely on CMSS 2, or something else is happening here?
 
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