Are all games going to become p2w?

Tudz said:
WoW and MMO's in general are a completely different category though. The whole game revolves around grinding... the actual gameplay is a pile of shit most the time.
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I wouldn't necessarily state the game revolves around grinding, rather that grinding was added due to poor gameplay. Imagine if something like Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden, or God of War was multiplayer. I mean, the game could not be beaten without help. A major portion of the game should be community interaction, and not pointless grinding. I don't mind a little, but the question is, what defines tolerable? Similar to what you've already stated, some people can play for hundreds of hours before they get bored, others get bored after a few minutes.

Different strokes for different folks. I totally understand the people who just want to get in there and have everything available from the beginning and hopefully we get enough games that cater to everyone's tastes. The bit I don't understand is when people get in to the "get off my lawn" syndrome and refuse to accept not all people think the way they do.
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That also is human nature. Not really sure if it's jealousy, ego, or spite, probably a mix of those and much more. My issue is with the developers here. Once a game becomes popular, everyone tries to emulate it. This in turn brings a downfall of other games. And I don't think it's necessarily because a new game is better, rather, that it's new. I'll admit, when the Playstation came out, I was getting sick of 2D platformers. They were everywhere. But new genres came out, and they almost went into extinction. The 2D platformers now though are kind of fun again. And it's not because they're better, but because I haven't played them in awhile. For about a decade, all we had were Quake style FPSs. Then Halo and CoD came out and took over.
 
Killa|3yte said:
I think my real beef is that game developers have, in a misguided attempt to provide continuing progression to even the most hardcore players, crafted unlock systems that are insurmountable to a player such as myself with less time on my hands.
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Yeah, and I totally agree with that. They've taken an unlock based system and turned it in to a grindfest, in many cases simply to encourage the purchasing of unlocks with real money. I do really hate that practice as well.

I could have seen myself spending a lot of time on BF3... but in the end I just gave it away after about 15 hours largely because of the grind.
 
BF3 wasn't slow for unlocks lol. Especially since you in no way need them all for every weapon, and you really didn't even need most of them for most weapons.
 
tehslippery said:
BF3 wasn't slow for unlocks lol. Especially since you in no way need them all for every weapon, and you really didn't even need most of them for most weapons.
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*shrugs* After 15 hours it felt like I'd barely gotten anywhere and people were suggesting to play the spammier maps to grind faster. As far as not "needing" the unlocks, perhaps, it's rare that you "need" things if you have enough skill, it did feel to me that I was at a disadvantage for not having unlocked a bunch of stuff.
 
tehslippery said:
BF3 wasn't slow for unlocks lol. Especially since you in no way need them all for every weapon, and you really didn't even need most of them for most weapons.
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Yes it was and this is by far the dumbest argument. Why would you willing excuse not being able to access content in a game you paid for? Do people seriously prefer having to grind and unlock junk when compared to just giving everyone the options and weapons from the start if it makes no difference balance wise. If so WHY?!

In any case you should still be able to access it without spending 40+ hours (probably takes even longer than that). Why restrict content to only those who are willing to grind in a non f2p game? It's a terrible system i think anyone can agree.
 
Tudz said:
people were suggesting to play the spammier maps to grind faster.
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This is the KEY point, the grind means if you want to be effective with your time you cannot you need to play certain ways, which might not be the way you want to play. In the case of BF3 it was utter horse shit because the game released at minimum $45. Your only options was to go into the tournament servers only. But then if any of your friends play on open servers all that time you spent in the unlocked servers was not worth anything.
 
You could play however you wanted. All the necessary stuff was a pretty quick unlock. 100 kills really doesn't take that long. The differences in weapons are basically preference, same with the scopes. You generally had a useable scope in 10-20 kills. Bolt actions took a bit longer for the straight pull, but even then it wasn't bad.

I mean, you're playing the game to kill people. Killing 1-200 people to have basically a full loadout with whatever you need is nothing. It's a couple hours play, in a game that you can easily put multiple hundreds of hours in. Beyond the basic unlocks you don't to unlock anything, it's just there for completionists.
 
tehslippery said:
You could play however you wanted. All the necessary stuff was a pretty quick unlock. 100 kills really doesn't take that long. The differences in weapons are basically preference, same with the scopes. You generally had a useable scope in 10-20 kills. Bolt actions took a bit longer for the straight pull, but even then it wasn't bad.

I mean, you're playing the game to kill people. Killing 1-200 people to have basically a full loadout with whatever you need is nothing. It's a couple hours play, in a game that you can easily put multiple hundreds of hours in. Beyond the basic unlocks you don't to unlock anything, it's just there for completionists.
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Obviously grind is relative, but looking at my typical kill rate in bad company 2 (never really played enough BF3 to get a consistent rate), it'd take me 3.5 to 4 hours to get 200 kills. Actually, looking through my BC2 stats, after nearly 60 hours playing, I only had 6 guns that I had 200+ kills with, in BF3 after 14 hours I only had 1 gun with around 200 kills (just under).

I'm obviously not a terribly good player, but I'd consider myself well above average in public servers of most FPS games (not saying much, I know).

But to me, BF3 was grindy. You can say it isn't all you want, it doesn't change the fact that to me and many other players, we found it grindy. 3 to 4 hours of using a single weapon to get all it's unlocks is grindy to me and having a big list of stats linked to unlocks which would take hundreds of hours to fill out is grindy. The simple fact you say "all necessary stuff was a pretty quick unlock" is immediately a red flag to me... why is the necessary stuff locked in the first place? :p
 
I think the skinner box model needs to be done away with entirely. It would kill two birds with one stone: do away with this contentious pay2win free2play cancer that's riddling games, and the absence of unlockable items would cause people to focus on the actual game rather than their stats.

The early Call of Duty/UO games, Battlefield and its associated mods, they all saw a lot more imaginative and challenging gameplay because the objective was whatever was in the game, rather than a new rank or unlock or thousand more XP or a certain fucking dogtag. One of the many reasons I stopped playing BF3 was this apparent focus by many players on the new shiny shit and not on having fun in the game. It's not so easy to wave your hand and tritely say "if you don't care about it you don't have to, but some people derive fun from unlocking that stuff". We know that. That's the point - the skinner box, the constant stream of rewards and pats on the head? Everyone derives enjoyment from that. It's proven, effective psychology. It's human nature, and it's unavoidable if that mechanic is in a game. It's like you're being conned into believing you're enjoying yourself, just a mule is conned into thinking it's going to get that carrot if it takes a few steps more.

You see it in any game. The old days of TF2 unlocks where everyone on both teams was whichever class just got the new gear developed, or World of Tanks whenever there's a new premium vehicle or weekend challenge feature on or whatever the current flavour of the month weapon/vehicle/unlock is so it gets run into the ground until it's rebalanced and everyone has to use it just to stand a chance of staying competitive.

I understand the desire of developers to maintain an active userbase, but the unlock model is kind of a lazy shorthand substitute for a game that in its own right compels people to keep playing. And sometimes, ironically, causes the userbase to drop if it's done in a shitty way like BF3's stream of fucking DLC that fractures the playerbase into the haves and have-nots, until people just put their hands up and say "whatever, I'm finding something else to do" after being dropped out of the server for not having the map pack next in the rotation.
 
Jellylesg said:
I think the skinner box model needs to be done away with entirely. It would kill two birds with one stone: do away with this contentious pay2win free2play cancer that's riddling games, and the absence of unlockable items would cause people to focus on the actual game rather than their stats.
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I will agree with this sentiment though. All too often you're playing an objective game and people are just worrying about kills.
 
tehslippery said:
You could play however you wanted. All the necessary stuff was a pretty quick unlock. 100 kills really doesn't take that long. The differences in weapons are basically preference, same with the scopes. You generally had a useable scope in 10-20 kills. Bolt actions took a bit longer for the straight pull, but even then it wasn't bad.

I mean, you're playing the game to kill people. Killing 1-200 people to have basically a full loadout with whatever you need is nothing. It's a couple hours play, in a game that you can easily put multiple hundreds of hours in. Beyond the basic unlocks you don't to unlock anything, it's just there for completionists.
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Couple hours times how many weapons? I get so tired of the apologists, what good is it? The fact is in order to be extremely efficient at getting what you need you have to do a bunch of research to know which weapons x which accessories are the best to use and all that takes time too. Contrast to an older game where you get in and use that weapon and see how it goes. Now what if you want to be a dynamic player that moves from position to position first you think a tactic doesn't work but its not because its a bad tactic its because you are not properly equipped to fill the role.... In BF3 I learned very well that I sucked at vehicles but later on I realized it was all the upgrades that I was missing.

But anyhow you will surely be set on your ways and destroy gaming for the people who think its all a waste of time.
 
xnikx said:
did i say i agreed with it? no, i said its not really an issue.
if noobs want to pay to be on the same level as all the other players, that is much different then a player with 100+ hours being a able to use his real money and buy an op weapon.
a noob who pays to unlock all the jet upgrades will be able to beat a pilot with hundreds of hours who didnt pay for the upgrade?
no but at least they have a better chance. this doesnt factor into p2w, this just factors into noobs wasting their money.

say the m16a3 could only be unlocked if you paid money for it, or other wise have to play hundreds of hours to have enough in game points to purchase it, that is PAY TO WIN.
or say you can only get heat seakers/rocket pods if you paids $10 a piece, or have to spend hundreds of hours to earn enough in game points to get them. again, pay to win.

and these upgrade packs are not what started the problem. dlc in the form of new maps or even a paid patch is what started this problem.

and im not saying every single f2p game is p2w. quake live, lol, and dota 2 are not p2w. lol and dota 2 make their money from offering skins, which is the right way to go.
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I'll be quick. ANY game with tiered a.k.a LOCKED gear and offering paid option to UNLOCK stuff is in fact p2w.

Bear in mind I am not saying content as a whole, but specifically gear. Skins do not matter. As long as new players are able to "have a better chance" by wasting their money, we're talking real life, not gaming anymore.
 
Play games of skill. The pay to win scenario exists because the games rely on in game items rather than skill. Play fighting games or strategy games like Super Street Fighter 4 or Starcraft 2. No amount of money will make a difference.
 
big_aug said:
Play games of skill. The pay to win scenario exists because the games rely on in game items rather than skill. Play fighting games or strategy games like Super Street Fighter 4 or Starcraft 2. No amount of money will make a difference.
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Or Unreal Tournament. I'm hoping they never introduce any leveling for that game series.
 
ballistic90 said:
Or Unreal Tournament. I'm hoping they never introduce any leveling for that game series.
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Even a game like that is less about skill than fighters or strategy games.

The fact of the matter is people want pay to win games. People don't want to win or lose based on skill. The popularity of pay to win games is evidence. The decrease in popularity and players for skill based genres is also evidence. People don't want to be bad at things, so we avoid stuff that shows just how awful we are.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
Most MOBA games aren't p2w and they are the most popular games out there.
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They're also team based games that involve the whole leveling system each and every game. I won't pretend to know much about them because I don't play them. They are popular for the reasons that Starcraft 2 1v1 ladder is unpopular.

If people wanted true games of skill, Fighting and RTS would be the most popular genres. They aren't though. It's because it's just not as much fun. Those "games" go far beyond the levels of normal games. They require hours and hours of practice. You grind in those games as you would more mindless games like Diablo 3, POE, or WoW, but it's grinding to get better. You aren't grinding for items or loot. You learn match ups. You develop strategies and techniques. You learn match flow and pacing. None of this stuff applies to other types of games.

It's why I fucking rage when I play too much Starcraft 2. I'm bad and lose which pisses me off.

Grinding/leveling and paying to bypass it are here to stay because we don't really want the alternative.
 
big_aug said:
They're also team based games that involve the whole leveling system each and every game. I won't pretend to know much about them because I don't play them. They are popular for the reasons that Starcraft 2 1v1 ladder is unpopular.

If people wanted true games of skill, Fighting and RTS would be the most popular genres. They aren't though. It's because it's just not as much fun. Those "games" go far beyond the levels of normal games. They require hours and hours of practice. You grind in those games as you would more mindless games like Diablo 3, POE, or WoW, but it's grinding to get better. You aren't grinding for items or loot. You learn match ups. You develop strategies and techniques. You learn match flow and pacing. None of this stuff applies to other types of games.

It's why I fucking rage when I play too much Starcraft 2. I'm bad and lose which pisses me off.

Grinding/leveling and paying to bypass it are here to stay because we don't really want the alternative.
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I see what you're saying, but you're sort of implying that if we were to remove unlocks from BF3, then it would fundamentally change the core gameplay, or something...

I really don't think this is the case. In fact, it would even level the playing field a bit.
 
Killa|3yte said:
I see what you're saying, but you're sort of implying that if we were to remove unlocks from BF3, then it would fundamentally change the core gameplay, or something...

I really don't think this is the case. In fact, it would even level the playing field a bit.
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It would even the playing field a bit. And that's exactly what most people don't want. All of us pretend that we do, but we really don't. We want every advantage we can get whether we get it because we have more time to grind or we have more money to spend.
 
That's part of the reason I haven't even purchased BF3 yet. I much prefer arena shooters played at extreme speeds. I also really dig straight up fighting games, but the support for PC fighting games is lackluster.

If I'm going to play a grindy game with unlocks, or RPG skill and leveling systems, I much prefer to play them PvE. I'm certainly not going to buy into the whole p2w spectrum of games.
 
big_aug said:
It would even the playing field a bit. And that's exactly what most people don't want. All of us pretend that we do, but we really don't. We want every advantage we can get whether we get it because we have more time to grind or we have more money to spend.
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As someone who has a fraction of the time as everyone else, I really feel the pain. Not only do I have the time to hone my skills, but I'm always under-equipped to boot! It's a sort of double jeopardy to be honest.

Isn't the fact that others have more time advantage enough? Are you saying that games like UT, Counter-Strike, and CS are broken? They seemed to work pretty well to me.
 
Killa|3yte said:
As someone who has a fraction of the time as everyone else, I really feel the pain. Not only do I have the time to hone my skills, but I'm always under-equipped to boot! It's a sort of double jeopardy to be honest.

Isn't the fact that others have more time advantage enough? Are you saying that games like UT, Counter-Strike, and CS are broken? They seemed to work pretty well to me.
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I think he's saying they work really well in terms of good match ups, but they're not as popular as BF3 or COD games because the lack of progression.

Its unfortunate that many gamers don't find fun in a good matchup anymore. It's all about the next unlockables or next achievement, advantage or not. In the SC1 days, I didn't care about my W/L ratio as much as enjoying matches because they were evenly matched
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
I think he's saying they work really well in terms of good match ups, but they're not as popular as BF3 or COD games because the lack of progression.

Its unfortunate that many gamers don't find fun in a good matchup anymore. It's all about the next unlockables or next achievement, advantage or not. In the SC1 days, I didn't care about my W/L ratio as much as enjoying matches because they were evenly matched
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That's exactly what I'm saying. We don't actually want solid, competitive matches. Everyone bitches that game developers feed us dumb shit over and over, but that's what people buy. People want dumb shit. People don't want to sit down and grind out Sagat v. Sakura or Bane v. Black Adam (Street Fighter and Injustice characters) over and over and over to learn a match up. They want to win. People don't want to go into Starcraft 2 practice mode and do the same build order for hours until they've got it fully optimized down to the second. These are the types of things that are required to develop your game and beat better opponents.

CS is one of the best team based shooters out there, but its nowhere near as popular as games like BF3 because everyone is even at the start of a match. There's a hell of a lot less luck involved in a game like CS as well. The maps are smaller. There are less people. You can't sit in a random spot and pick off newbs for hours and get high scores.

People want advantages. Paying to win is an advantage. Having no job and playing 12 hours a day is an advantage. These are the games people want. Everyone buys them, myself included. I have to take breaks from games like Starcraft or Injustice. You hit plateaus and you start getting bodied. It gets frustrating. Most people don't want to do it at all. They lose a few matches and they quit. They never buy that type of game again and we end up with the situation we're in now.
 
In fact, I've gotten hooked on these stupid fucking mobile trading card games. I just started playing them for the first time about a week ago. Marvel: War of Heroes and Rage of Bahamut. They are the very definition of pay to win. They are popular as fuck though and people love them.
 
jmilcher said:
People still pay tons of real money for in game items, even with sub based games. WoW has MANY places you can buy the best of the best for real money.
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Best of what?

You can buy the "best" mount. But they're all just aesthetic and don't go any faster then regular mounts.

Best "pets", not really because of how the pet battle system is designed there's no best.

Best Transmog items? Most of the "best" transmog items are already in game.

You can't buy gear or anything like that for real money.
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
Same goes for almost any game with a closed progression system. Any "grind" can be paid as a service, so any grind to win is also a pay to win.
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how do you figure?
d3 i guess will use as an example.

im not sure whats good gear in d3 anymore, but lets just use Natalya's set as example.

A demon hunter who plays countless hours to find the whole set, not using the rmah
versus
a demon hunter who paid real money to buy the whole set

you see no difference between the two?
 
There's the skill vs commodity argument (that commodity either being time or real life cash), but it doesn't really apply to the p2w argument since "pay" implies money.
 
xnikx said:
how do you figure?
d3 i guess will use as an example.

im not sure whats good gear in d3 anymore, but lets just use Natalya's set as example.

A demon hunter who plays countless hours to find the whole set, not using the rmah
versus
a demon hunter who paid real money to buy the whole set

you see no difference between the two?
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. You wont notice the difference between the two. When you join a game and you see someone in full nats set, you wont know if they bought it or farmed it themselves.

However thats no different from D2, PoE, Dragon's Nest, even dungeon defenders or any closed loot system game. How do you know that person farmed it legit or bought it online? How do you know that person even hit the level cap without paying for a service? In games that loot isnt as random (take WoW for example), there are still full heroic set accounts that are sold or high PVP ratings sold.

So no, it makes no difference to me because I dont find any of those games competitive. Sure D3 makes it easier to use money, but you're completely naive if you think that doesnt happen in other games. Trying to compete in those games is just plain stupid. Just play to have fun. Some people like grinding and farming, others like skipping straight to god mode. Who the hell cares how they got to where they enjoy the game?

Like big_aug was saying, if you want to test gaming skills, go play games were EVERY match is fair playing ground, where money or mindless grinding makes no difference. Sure you could probably buy a SC2 account that is in the masters leauge, but will that make you any better?
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at. You wont notice the difference between the two. When you join a game and you see someone in full nats set, you wont know if they bought it or farmed it themselves.

However thats no different from D2, PoE, Dragon's Nest, even dungeon defenders or any closed loot system game. How do you know that person farmed it legit or bought it online? How do you know that person even hit the level cap without paying for a service? In games that loot isnt as random (take WoW for example), there are still full heroic set accounts that are sold or high PVP ratings sold.

So no, it makes no difference to me because I dont find any of those games competitive. Sure D3 makes it easier to use money, but you're completely naive if you think that doesnt happen in other games. Trying to compete in those games is just plain stupid. Just play to have fun. Some people like grinding and farming, others like skipping straight to god mode. Who the hell cares how they got to where they enjoy the game?

Like big_aug was saying, if you want to test gaming skills, go play games were EVERY match is fair playing ground, where money or mindless grinding makes no difference. Sure you could probably buy a SC2 account that is in the masters leauge, but will that make you any better?
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Do you not see the difference between Pay to win and "pay to win under the companies nose"

Yes I could buy a wow accoutn with full heroic raid gear. But I can't go to blizz and buy full heroic raid gear. That's a gigantic difference between supporting it and it being against the terms of service.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
Not directly from Blizzard.
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Unless you're talking about literally paying someone to raid for you, I'm not sure how you can buy them from anyone else either. Everything "top-tier" is bind on pickup. That means your character has to obtain it in-game. You could pay someone to play the game for you, but if you're going to pay to *not* play games...well, I have a cheaper alternative that's right up your alley.
 
Yeah, about as far as anyone in WoW can go is to buy gold > use gold to buy raid slots + guaranteed loot if it drops.
 
Yeah I don't know about you guys but back when I played WoW there was at least 1 guild in the server that you could pay like $50 and they'd take you on raids and give you whatever loot you wanted.
 
Superfly3176 said:
Do you not see the difference between Pay to win and "pay to win under the companies nose"

Yes I could buy a wow accoutn with full heroic raid gear. But I can't go to blizz and buy full heroic raid gear. That's a gigantic difference between supporting it and it being against the terms of service.
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Spewn said:
Unless you're talking about literally paying someone to raid for you, I'm not sure how you can buy them from anyone else either. Everything "top-tier" is bind on pickup. That means your character has to obtain it in-game. You could pay someone to play the game for you, but if you're going to pay to *not* play games...well, I have a cheaper alternative that's right up your alley.
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It doesnt matter if it's sanctioned or not, all games like that have a way of using real money to "get ahead" and those sites continue to exist because they're profitable.

Quick google search, you want current tier heroics, you got it.
http://www.vbarrack.com/buying-wow-account/45180-Level-90-Female-Orc-Warlock

Even if you think it's not legit (maybe does some type of keylogging to steal stuff), "stolen" items need to be sold eventually. They continue to operate because people continue to pay for those items. You think it just happens in wow, think again

http://www.epicnpc.com/forum.php

The point is not which company does or does not sanctions using real money, the point is it happens in EVERY game. This is why none of the games which gives any advantage for time or money spent in game should be taken seriously as a competitive. If you want to live in ignorance and think that a game with stats that gives advantages are "fair" because the owning company doesnt sell items themselves, then thats you're prerogative. If you think you can "winning" in those games versus other people in those games has any meaning, then I guess it's nice to live in such ignorance.
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at. You wont notice the difference between the two. When you join a game and you see someone in full nats set, you wont know if they bought it or farmed it themselves.

However thats no different from D2, PoE, Dragon's Nest, even dungeon defenders or any closed loot system game. How do you know that person farmed it legit or bought it online? How do you know that person even hit the level cap without paying for a service? In games that loot isnt as random (take WoW for example), there are still full heroic set accounts that are sold or high PVP ratings sold.

So no, it makes no difference to me because I dont find any of those games competitive. Sure D3 makes it easier to use money, but you're completely naive if you think that doesnt happen in other games. Trying to compete in those games is just plain stupid. Just play to have fun. Some people like grinding and farming, others like skipping straight to god mode. Who the hell cares how they got to where they enjoy the game?

Like big_aug was saying, if you want to test gaming skills, go play games were EVERY match is fair playing ground, where money or mindless grinding makes no difference. Sure you could probably buy a SC2 account that is in the masters leauge, but will that make you any better?
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ah i get you now.
ya, d2 was the same situation but you just had to do it outside of the game.
suing websites to buy gear.

honestly though, u can usually tell when people have paid for their gear versus finding them.

i understand this has always been a issue in loot bases games but what im getting at is how its making the transition into fps games, even some that are considered competitive.
 
Really bummed about star citizen. One of the reasons I tossed in my $250 was because i wanted to support a game that preached it wasnt going to be P2W but now it seems like its heading that way uncontrollably.
 
Breath_of_the_Dying said:
The point is not which company does or does not sanctions using real money
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Actually that's exactly the point, because you end up with VERY different games when you make paying to progress or gain "power" in-game part of the game's design philosophy. Or would you seriously suggest that if DICE had sold a sanctioned aimbot for BF3 that it would be no different because you can already buy illegitimate ones?
 
dgz said:
I'll be quick. ANY game with tiered a.k.a LOCKED gear and offering paid option to UNLOCK stuff is in fact p2w.

Bear in mind I am not saying content as a whole, but specifically gear. Skins do not matter. As long as new players are able to "have a better chance" by wasting their money, we're talking real life, not gaming anymore.
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Still, there IS a choice as to whether or not you (the player) choose to buy in to the P2W metric.

Look at DC Universe Online, for example - it has a thriving in-game Broker which is pretty much used only by Legendary players (because nobody with anything less builds up enough usable in-game spendable currency to be able to use the Broker; I'm a Premium-level player that has north of $55K in escrow in my longest-term character's bank account, but since I can only access $2000 at one time, the Broker does me, and other non-Legendary players, zero good).

However, I seriously have to ask - why would a Legendary player need to even USE the Broker? Unless you are talking custom-crafted content, pretty much ALL content in the game is either dropped as loot or craftable/moddable by the player in-game (and the craft/mod system for gear in DCUO is pretty darn easily masterable by anyone - even if you haven't done any crafting in any MMO before). Given that, the only reason left for the Broker to exist is for those players looking to avoid the grind common to all MMOs. (If you're a non-Legendary player, you are likely familiar with grinding in MMOs - DCUO is not really any different in that aspect from any other MMO. (I have done my share of grinding - I have two gear sets that I earned entirely that way; the same applies to all the mods I've applied to both sets.) It's not really P2W - it's more of a pay-to-avoid-scutwork system. (Yes - I just called the grinding system in MMOs "scutwork"; it can be, depending on how much of it you have to do, a real pain in the rear. However, in what way is life any different?)
 
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